Who is/ are the EFDSS?

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM

I'm thinking it's rather out of touch these days with grass roots Folk clubs, very few know anything about it I've found

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 07:12 AM

Opinions? You want opinions? These are my opinions ............. and if you don't like 'em I've got lots of others ..........

L in C Marx as it were

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 06:32 AM

Well speak for yourself, Del. I'm always up for a pointless discussion with anybody, without seeing their O level certificates.

I think most fair minded peole would accept that the EFDSS is an honourable attempt to do something honourable. Some of us feel that folk song history and what went on in isolated rural communities has very little to do with a great artform - constructed from the English language.

But that's our opinion. England is what it is, with its class system and all its patronising stultifying nonsense. we're stuck with it.

I did a gig last night with two young singer songwriters both quite brilliant in their own way - writing in vernacular English, about their lives and beliefs and struggles. I felt old fashioned and irrelevant. Will the middle classes ever connect with true folksong - get a handle on what its about? I doubt it.

But it doesn't stop the EFDSS being decent people doing their best, by their lights.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM

To which I'd add the memory of the gentleman who said he was doing academic research, received information, said he wanted to discuss it and then failed to revert on where and when. Would I be wrong to assume that this is unusual for academic researchers?

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:59 AM

peggymUK
your earlier posting indicated that you were researching for a thesis, which suggests that you are engaged in academic research, perhaps for a post-graduate degree.
Therefore, I am curious to know why you do not identify yourself - with your correct name, perhaps academic credentials, name of academic institution to which you are attached etc.
Alas, mudcat has had its experience of trolls, and some people will be reluctant to engage in pointless discussion and might prefer more information.
Derek

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: peggymUK
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:48 AM

It seems my inquiry solicited more questions and advice than answers. I hope this helps ... 1. I am mainly interested in traditional folk song and dance that documents the social history of the English people - which is why I made it clear I am focused on EFDSS; 2. Yes, I certainly expected most responses would be from English Mudcat members who might naturally have a vested interest in their own English folk-heritage - I don't see why anyone else would particularly care; 3. The word ethnic seems to be problematic - perhaps read 'native' (which term has been used elsewhere one this website), or 'indigenous' (which is used on the EFDSS website); 4. I am focusing on material and resources that are in the hands of private membership organizations rather than those already in the public domain; 5. Yes, I have already been through the EFDSS website; 6. No, I have not approached EFDSS directly - I can assess myself whether it is delivering to its various Mission statements. I was looking for an opinion or two, mainly, as Bert suggests, from English Mudcatters, as to whether they think the EFDSS is being effective in re-connecting English people with the folksong and dance of their English ancestors. I could have asked this question without giving any background, but if no-one wishes to comment I will move on.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 10:45 AM

peggymUK, you might want to define an art as opposed to a craft, embroidery, thatching, pargeting, the naive painters and so on, all have a role depending on where your definitions lie.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 09:50 AM

Chris M,

I've never been called ethnic before

Your point being?

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 09:38 AM

Isn't Eliza Carthy president of the EFDSS? Or something like that. You could try contacting her. She sometimes contributes to Mudcat and I'm sure she'd be willing to help.

I've never been called ethnic before.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:23 PM

Who is/ are the EFDSS?

The Erectile Failure and Dysfunction Saddo's Society....?

The English Fart Demons Super Smellers....?

The Endless Fun from Diarrhoea Seminar and Soiree

Enid's (Blyton) Filthy Deflowering of the Secret Seven...

I mean, lets keep an open mind.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:56 PM

AS Oscar Wilde very nearly said, folk music is never pure and never simple.
folk music is simple, Oscar Wilde would never have said anything so idiotic

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Teatime
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

Peggym - haven you contacted EFDSS themselves? If you're looking for information about what the society does, they may be able to help, especially if you're confused by the vague statements on their website.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:21 AM

Hi John!
Have a great session (You probably already are!)
Need to talk to you about another project for the autumn, will get back to you another way! Say hello to anyone who knows me.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:15 AM

... and here I am Ralphie, just prior to popping out for a Sunday lunchtime tunes session, keeping the English music alive in the Ryburn Valley. I'll maybe contribute an opinion or two later this afternoon.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM

Like others I'm a bit bemused by the term "ethnic English music" But, good luck with your research, For all things traditional, you need travel no further than the archivist Doc Rowe....100s of thousands of photos, videos, audio recordings etc, garnered over decades of painstaking collecting. Has just moved his entire archive to Whitby. Also it might be worth checking out John Adams who runs the Village Music project in Yorkshire (and pops in here occasionally )
Also worth checkng out Rod Stradlings site...Musical Traditions.
A treasure trove of information.
Let us know how it goes, I fear you might be some time over this one!!!

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 07:30 AM

In the booklet, "Cymdeithas Alawon Gwerin Cymru - The Welsh Folk-Song Society 1908 - 1983" the author D. Roy Saer writes, "A matter that deserves further research is the precise contribution and inter-relationship of native and external influences in the creation of the Society. The (English) Folk-Song Society had been established only slightly earlier, in 1898, and its Irish counterpart in 1904, and it is known that two Irishmen, Sir Harry Reichel (principal of the University College of North Wales, Bangor) and author Alfred Percival Graves, played crucial roles in the development of the Welsh Society. Folk song specialists from England also lent it their ready support: notably Cecil Sharp himself, Miss Lucy Broadwood and Miss Annie Gilchrist. Dr. J. Lloyd Williams, however, maintained - in 1934 - that the actual beginnings of the Society had been indigenous. He might well have been correct: certainly the wave of patriotism which produced it had already been swelling gradually for a quarter of a century and more. And the positive statement in the 1914-15 Report demands respect: 'The Society owes its origin to the Eisteddfod and to the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion.' "

I had gone looking for this quote thinking it would be a bit more specific about the EFDSS link, and it wasn't. I know that, since this booklet was published, this has come up in a lecture at our annual meeting. I do remember that the early CAGC (Cymdeithas Alawon Gwerin Cymru - welsh folk songs soc.) founders turned down a proposal from The Folk Song Society to establish a federal system across the UK, with sub-groups representing 'the nations'. IIRC the Welsh thought they'd flourish better under their own steam; perhaps the Irish and the Scots did as well. I do know that some of the Welsh collectors of the time sent wax cylinders to The Folk Song Society so that suggests they were acknowledging a central role there. It doesn't apply today, however.

sian

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:06 AM

'the national folk-treasures of the ethnic English people and their freedom of access to them'

they're welcome to mine - can't give 'em away!

Best of luck with you endeavour mate, whatever it is you're driving at. I think you need to make your use of language a little less dense, and let us in on the secret of what you're up to. if we can help, I'm sure we will.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 04:06 AM

Read 'The Imagined Village' by Geogina Boyes it will explain much and 'Stations of the Sun' by Ronald Hutton

L in C#

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 12:39 AM

I am exercised as to your precise definitions and implications within your title concept of "the ethnic English people".

Who they? What meaning of "ethnic" here?

Presumably your title has been approved by whichever body you are preparing this thesis for ~~ the nature and purpose of which are not quite clear [higher degree? publication by learned society?]. Was not this question asked when topic accepted?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:52 PM

For your thesis you need to talk to English Mudcatters.

Subject: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: peggymUK
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:41 PM

Hi, I am not a folkie but I have been 'guesting' in on Mudcat for some time marvelling at the wealth of knowledge there is out there on ethnic and traditional folk arts.
I am currently researching for a thesis entitled "The indigenous folk-arts of England. An examination of the ownership, custodianship, and development of the national folk-treasures of the ethnic English people and their freedom of access to them." I am starting with the EFDSS for obvious reasons but am confused by various visions and values expressed on the EFDSS website.
The 'About Us' webpage states "The EFDSS aims to place the indigenous folk arts of England at the heart of our cultural life", whereas its education arm "draws from the diverse traditional folk arts of England and the British Isles" and "works with a range of organizations fostering links with contemporary, classical, urban and world art forms". Some of its initiatives are distinctly British and along multicultural lines, and the Vaughan Williams mission statement does not mention indigenous or English or England at all. I have copies of the Articles and Memorandum
I would like to invite comment from Mudcat members as to what activities the EFDSS s or should be engaged in, purely in relation to the subject of my thesis. I am still perusing the multitude of Mudcat threads on EFDSS but I have not found this exact thread elsewhere. Many thanks.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 07:55 AM

Pedantic quibble: "England, because it is a much bigger place" - bigger but not that much bigger geographically - 130410 sq km as against 84,412 km sq km.

A lot more people, of course, but when it comes to traditional musicians that population disparity is probably reversed.

There is an enormous variety in the musical traditions in England, true enough. But that's true of Ireland as well. Including in both cases a sizeable and healthy influx of recent immigration, with associated cultural input whuich can add to and enrich the pre-existing traditions.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 01:23 PM

John Adams statement a little earlier seems to express the society's position rather well, and also is a very convincing account of what its postion should be. Look at the central core, see how it relates to the peripheries. Sounds perfect to me.
    The danger, of course, faced by both Comhaltas and the EFDSS in the past, is there has often been a temptation to attempt to create a central core, rather than to study or promote it. And that temptation has not always been successfully resisted, in either Ireland or England. In Ireland these tendencies have often led to a kind of "ethnic cleansing" of traditional practises not perceived as sufficiently "Irish". In England, because it is a much bigger place, the temptation has led often to attempts to come up with some sort of lowest common denominator "English" music or dance, which never actually existed in the country but is somehow felt to be an average version of England's traditions. Because, inconveniently for some patriots, there is no such thing as a single entity called "English music" or "Irish music".
    AS Oscar Wilde very nearly said, folk music is never pure and never simple.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 12:54 PM

I'd take clause c -"To promote and encourage research into and study of the origins, development and traditional practice of English folk dances, songs and music and their relationship with those of other countries" as addressing the whole range of folk music traditions now based in this country, and their relationship with the traditions of other countries from whence it may have originated.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 12:24 PM

derek, I reckon my contributuion to this thread is positive,Ihave praised the hard work of the volunteers.
I have offered 200 sterling for a competition,at no point have I slagged efdss off.
I was genuinely misled by dave eyres comment,and the very badly worded[difficult to understand]clause c and [particuarly d].BUT not negative

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Fidjit
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 11:00 AM

Good idea Ruth. And there it is.

Chas

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 10:02 AM

Sounds like an interesting experience: why not start a thread about it?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Fidjit
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 09:03 AM

Dick,
I was in Clare on a couple of visits 2003/4. Found the sessions in the pubs a bit, now whats the word I'm looking for. Unreal? Made up.? Not quite authentic? Do you know what I mean. Seeemingly paid musicians there to start a session feel. Very fake type. Some in Milton Malbay, on that week they have in July, were very authentic though. Even joined in with those ones. Lisdoonvarna and Doolin No way!. Dublin, Temple Bar. Forget it. Nice one in the Lighthouse at Howth though, with Barney McKenna in residence. Also at the center in Monkstown. Teaching the turists dancing and a session in the bar. Also authentic. Think I found the real ones. The others, must just be there for the turists. Now they could be a debateable point. Wotcha fink?

Chas

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:39 AM

I think I'd leave that to the Welsh Folk Song Society's magazine ....

Discussions like this raise profile and publicity but it's a pity the discussion can't be a bit more positive.....

Derek

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 07:50 AM

presumably, an article on welsh colonisation of patagonia,and their struggle to keep welsh culture[including folk music ]alive,is acceptable as well,has anyone collected this music,in 1860 there were over 600 WELSH settlers.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:47 AM

john adams .Its all publicity for efdss,so no harm has been done.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 03:18 AM

Thanks fo that, John - it's exactly the sort of clarification I was hoping for, and it reflects my own understanding of what the Society is about.

It is exciting to think of the Society being able to support opportunities for exploring areas of commonality with England's various cultural groups, as these sorts of exchanges enrich understanding (as well as being good fun). But the central ethos of the society is to do with English folk culture.

As I suggested earlier, the clue's in the name. It's not really rocket science, at the end of the day.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: johnadams
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 12:37 AM

It certainly seems to be the only one that anybody's starting threads about.

J

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Bert
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 12:13 AM

Johnadams says ...Do they attract as much controversy as efdss?..

Well I don't know, I'm sure they have as many problems as any other club or society.

It's many years since I've been in England so I don't know what is going on at the moment. I only mentioned them because I get the impression that people think that the EFDSS is the only game in town.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: johnadams
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:59 PM

My take? I personally interpret the interest area of the Society thus....

Considering English folk culture
Where it came from
Who it is shared with
How it is celebrated now
Where it spread to and what they're doing with it
Where it is going in the future
What's enriching it locally
What the commonality is with those around us.

With regard to publication priorities, as a member, I wouldn't expect to see journal or magazine articles about Peruvian flute music because it doesn't immediately seem to connect with English folk culture. Also it's well covered in other journals and mags and I think we should cover areas that are not dealt with elsewhere.

I would not be at all surprised or upset to see an article about the street drama or the Goombay(?) dancers of the Caribbean because it is so obviously similar to our mummers plays and ritual dance.

I wouldn't expect to see translations of Mongolian folk songs in our publications even if their narrative themes were congruent with English songs unless there was some particular link being explored.

I wouldn't be surprised to see translations of Irish Gaelic songs because the geographical and historical proximity of the two cultures makes it relevant to comparison.

And so on.

Others may have a different way of looking at this.

I think I can speak for the organisation when I say that there is trust placed in both our editors that they will reflect the aims and objectives of the society as they interpret them during the time they are doing the job. In a fast moving world the Society's aims and objectives will have to be constantly monitored for their relevance and the publications will reflect current thinking.

Is that what you meant?

J

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: johnadams
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:49 PM

Bert wrote:

And dont forget "The British Association of American Square Dance Clubs" and "The Society for International Folk Dancing"

I'd love to hear about them. Do they attract as much controversy as efdss?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:19 PM

enter Tom forest singing THE LINCOLNSHIRE POACHER,Its my delight on a shining night in the season of the year,.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:11 PM

Thank you Deeeeeyvid. I shall endeavour to be familiar with Mr Schofield in future, and hope that he enjoys it.

I had an illicit affair with one of the staff because I thought it might wipe that smug, self-satified look off the faces of my husband and my in-laws. But noooooo...still smug. Still Archers.

Ahem...where were we?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:58 PM

Ruth I think it is alright to call him "Derek". Mr. Schofield sounds very formal and I have met him and know him to be a very friendly person. I am sure he will not be offended by familiarity, indeed he may even enjoy it.

And if, by calling me Dave you are reminded of the marriage vows you nearly broke then I would be very happy.

How could you - a cowman? Surely someone from the local Borsetshire Agricultural College would have been available?   

Dave

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:49 PM

"yes - but don't ask me to say which bits are indigenous and which bits not ... the polka? French-Canadian tunes? Harry Cox songs like Black Velvet Band? Contra?"

Hmmm, I should have known better than to expect a straightforward answer. It's not quite so clear-cut, is it?


"I can't speak for EFDSS as a whole....."

no - but i'm hoping John might shed some light...


"come come, just because you were born in Northumberland, that still makes you English and David and the rest of the Archers have made you very welcome in Borsetshire, until your nasty experience with a rude cowman ..."

*rolls eyes* What was I saying earlier about having respect for you, Mr Schofield...?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:46 PM

"Native English" folk music has taken a fair battering in the modern world; and it is the tradition of the largest ethnic community in the country, sometimes called "the host community" - even if they don't always know too much about it.

It seems reasonable enough to me that those factors should be reflected in the priorities of the EFDSS when it comes to publications and suchlike.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:36 PM

Ruth wrote:
*I assume from your inclusion of the sentence from the EDS style sheet, Derek, that what you are implying is that indigenous English work still receives priority.*

yes - but don't ask me to say which bits are indigenous and which bits not ... the polka? French-Canadian tunes? Harry Cox songs like Black Velvet Band? Contra?

and then she wrote:
*but that the folk arts of other cultures are incorporated where possible*

yes ... see article about Scottish travellers in current issue.

and then she asked:
*And is this the implication for EFDSS as well?*

I can't speak for EFDSS as a whole.....


and more ... she said ....
*I'm not even a little bit English. I'm an immigrant, too*

come come, just because you were born in Northumberland, that still makes you English and David and the rest of the Archers have made you very welcome in Borsetshire, until your nasty experience with a rude cowman ...

Derek

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 03:42 PM

Thankyou, Dave.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:32 PM

Excellent. No we have settled the arguments - let's have some good old fashioned abuse.

I think you are very patient Dick. Take no notice of that rude man. What does he know.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:28 PM

I assume from your inclusion of the sentence from the EDS style sheet, Derek, that what you are implying is that indigenous English work still receives priority, but that the folk arts of other cultures are incorporated where possible. Is this what you mean? And is this the implication for EFDSS as well?

Sorry for asking that you be explicit, but that paragraph is actually quite significant and is open to interpretation. I'd be interested in John Adams's take on it.

By the way, Dick, I'm not even a little bit English. I'm an immigrant, too. And, like Comhaltas with you, EFDSS are perfectly nice to me despite my obvious shortcoming of being a Colonial. I suspect this is because we have both embraced enthusiastically the folk cultures of our adopted homes - why shouldn't they think we're lovely?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: GUEST,Haughey's credit card
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:22 PM

Dick Head wrote: 'and I have been welcomed by skibbereen comhaltas'. Is there any chance of rescinding that invitation? Furthermore, is there any chance of getting Dick Head deported from Ireland? We really don't need idiotic blow-ins like him here as we've enough of our own.

Feck off, Dick, and take all the three-quarters Anglo-Saxon with ye!

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:58 PM

McGrath of Harlow wrote:
*English people come from all over the place, with all kinds of ethnic backgrounds. And "English folk music" means, or should mean, the folk music of all English people."

yes, when I was involved in writing the EFDSS's Strategic Plan in 1998, (when I was a national council / trustee volunteer), I gained the approval of the council to include the following:

*The EFDSS recognises that the term 'English' when used in the context of folk music, dance and song, includes a wide range of influences. The folk music, dance and song in England have always reflected the country's cultural diversity. The English folk arts have also travelled to other countries in the world. The EFDSS interprets the word 'English' in its title as including the folk arts as found today in England, no matter what the community; as well as the folk arts which originated in England and which are now found in other parts of the world.   Following a long tradition within the EFDSS, there is also an interest in the folk arts of countries throughout the world. *

This is analogous to the use of the word "English" in the term "English Literature".

I have used this paragraph in the contributors' style sheet for English Dance & Song magazine, but .... I also have this sentence ...

*With just four issues a year, the Editor is obliged to prioritise in terms of selecting the content, and in terms of selecting the CDs and books to be reviewed.*

Derek Schofield

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:50 PM

Captain Dick Miles wrote:
*thankyou ,Derek for your time.
clause c and d ,indicate that one of their aims is to promote songs and music of other countries.*

I am sorry to disagree, especially as you've said complimentary things about me, but I don't think that that is an accurate interpretation of clauses c and d.

c.       To promote and encourage research into and study of the origins, development and traditional practice of English folk dances, songs and music and their relationship with those of other countries.

This says it's the relationship with other countries that could be promoted.

d.       In furtherance of the above objects to promote, and co-operate in, demonstrations, festivals and other like performances of folk dances, songs and music of other countries, whether held in England or elsewhere.

and this one says that it may promote festivals and performances of folk of other countries, but in furtherance of the above objects. In other words, it is dependent upon such promotion being compatible with other objects.

Derek

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:45 PM

mcgrath of harlow.an interesting post.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:18 PM

English people come from all over the place, with all kinds of ethnic backgrounds. And "English folk music" means, or should mean, the folk music of all English people.

In that context native English (indigenous/aborigine, call it what you may) traditions have a far better hope of being kept alive. Which is what I very much want to see happen, because I think it's a wondferful heritage and tradition, and one which can only benefit from being set alongside other living traditions in this country.

And all this actually seems quite consistent with the wording of the EFDSS Memorandum of Association quoted by Derek Schofield - though I suspect of it was being written today there might be more use of the kind of expression used in some EFDSS literature today - "traditional folk music in England", to avoid misunderstandings.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Bert
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:41 AM

And dont forget "The British Association of American Square Dance Clubs" and "The Society for International Folk Dancing"

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:22 AM

Any chance of that being the end of it?

Dave

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:50 AM

john, ok I accept that.
I hope that clauses C AND D might be given consideration when the society is able financially to do so.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: johnadams
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:20 AM

Ruth A is quite correct. The available budget has been carefully prioritised.

The current activities have been formulated after many months of discussion and planning by people with appropriate skills and knowledge

The Society is happy with what it can achieve within its present resources and looks forward to developing its income and fully achieving its core aims.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:02 AM

fair enough.
oh by the way I am 3/4 ENGLISH 1/4 Irish have an english accent, and am an immigrant to Ireland,and have been welcomed by skibbereen comhaltas.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

Because its resources, both financial and human, are limited. My understanding from previous threads about the Society is that it is focusing on reinfocing its core aims right now. Making applications takes time and effort. I think that it would be best served in applying for money - for the moment - that will help it to achieve its core aims. Once those aims are clear and the organisation is moving forward to attain them, perhaps it could look to new directions.

I'm talking as if I speak for EFDSS. Of course I don't. I'm just giving my own opinion. And I'm happy, as always, to be corrected by them wot knows.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:42 AM

YOU SAY,Perhaps EFDSS regional partnerships,when they arise could encourage these kind of activities as part of their remit.
good idea.
the business side comes through increased membership.,and hopefully more use of the societies facilities[ its a mistake to think immigrants may not be interested in english folk song and dance as well as their own]
there might be a reason why they should be drawn to efdss, if they were welcomed,.
efdss has to hold out the welcoming hand[your idea of regional partnerships is a step in the right direction],their musical culture has to be respected and promoted[not as a core aim of the society but as a more minor aim].,
John Adams, said that efdss was not in a financial predicament,therefore it enjoys some security,WHY not start in this direction in a small way and gradually expand the idea,particuarly if there are grants available.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:08 AM

*sigh*

The point I am tring to make, Dick, is that Comhaltas evolved because there was a perceived need for it: a society dedicated to the preservation of Ireland's traditional culture. EFDSS is exactly the same, and we need it now. Particularly as it goes through this important time of deciding its future direction, it is absolutely vital, IMHO, that its focus remains English traditional music an dance.

Cultural diversity is an issue which England has been dealing with a lot longer than Ireland has. While there may be opportunities for EFDSS to work with groups from time to time which represent the other cultures present in Britain, to make this a core objective would be to undermine the organisation's principle reason for existence, as outlined very kindly by Mr Schofield above: the preservation and proliferation of English traditional music and dance.

If English traditional culture were in a similar position of rude good health to Irish traditional culture - ie, a reasonably high profile in the country, well respected and supported by the government, seen as key to tourism - then maybe it would be time to turn attention outwards and think, "Right - we're fine. Now, let's see what we can do about collaborating with other cultural groups and actively seeking points of crossover and commonality which helps to shape a common identity." How fantastic would that be? But to get to that point, you have to be operating from a position of some security, and I don't think that EFDSS, or in fact the English tradition as a whole, is at that point yet. The reason I keep banging on about Comhaltas is that they are, arguably, coming from that position of strength within a robust folk culture - yet they do not seem to be embracing these opportunities for widening their impact and helping Ireland come to terms with its brand new, culturally dieverse identitiy. And in my opinion, they're on borrowed time: Ireland won't be allowed to carry on pretending it's still a mono-culture for much longer.

As Derek says, the objects outlined above are merely guidelines - things that EFDSS COULD do. It is not obligated to incorporate an international element. And as Derek also says, the first three are really the key ones - those referring to English music and dance.

I am not saying that I think EFDSS should remain insular throughout its existence, but I do think it needs to consolidate its own position before it actively takes on a brief of outreach. I think there are exciting opportunities for collaboration between diverse communities that emerge from time to time, and that EFDSS could embrace these where possible. for example, rapper sides have performed at Melas, for instance, which is an interesting opportunity for presenting Asian and English sword-dancing styles side by side. Perhaps EFDSS's regional partnerships, when they arise, could encourage these kinds of activities as part of their remit.

If there are business opportunities to be derived, Dick, I'm afraid I can't actually see what they might be. Most immigrant communities have their own community centres and cultural activities. Is there a particular reason that they'd be drawn to EFDSS?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:19 AM

thankyou ,Derek for your time.
clause c and d ,indicate that one of their aims is to promote songs and music of other countries.
I am not suggesting that efdss make this their primary aim,but it does have potential to be developed,and has the potential for bringing in new members from immigrant cultures.,IF EFDSS MEMBERS want this.
Ruth why do you want to keep comparing efdss and comhaltas[its rather like saying they dont do it, why should we],a good business man sees and seizes oppurtunitesthat others [in this case comhaltas havent].
COMHALTAS is irrelevant to this discussion,I have always understood that their brief is strictly the preservation of irish traditional music.,please correct me if I am wrong.
It would appear efdss is more international.
   I have no intention of joining efdss at the moment, however a donation of 200 sterling is still on offer,either for a traditional unaccompanied singing competition or a songwriting competition,I feel that my money is better spent in this way[ thats my prerogative ].

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:06 AM

I'd say that settles it.

Thanks Derek.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:08 PM

So it's pretty clear that, whatever the focus of the Folk Song Society might have been, EFDSS is primarily concerned with indigenous folk music and dance.

Just like Comhaltas.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:45 PM

My name has been mentioned once or twice here, so perhaps some clarification is needed. The original question, to which I replied in a different thread was about the purpose of the Folk Song Society. Following the merger of the 2 societies (song and dance) in 1932, the EFDSS was registered as a company, requiring memorandum of association and the objects for which the organisation was being established. Some of them are given below.

Remember, that these objects reflected the time when they were drawn up (1935) and - if you've ever had to do this sort of thing - you try and ensure that you are keeping your options open for the future .... the objects are therefore a statement of any and all the things that they might have liked to do, and how they thought they might like to do them, and does not indicate priorities, preferences etc. Indeed, over the years, the priorities have changed.

That said, the first 3 objects are the fundamental ones I think .... here they are .....

Memorandum of Association of the EFDSS

The objects for which the Society is established are:

a.        To preserve English folk dances and songs and other folk music (including singing games), to make them known and to encourage the practice of them in their traditional forms.

b.        To promote the knowledge and practice of English folk dances, songs and music by means of dances, schools, classes, examinations, lectures, demonstrations, festivals and other like methods.

c.        To promote and encourage research into and study of the origins, development and traditional practice of English folk dances, songs and music and their relationship with those of other countries.

d.        In furtherance of the above objects to promote, and co-operate in, demonstrations, festivals and other like performances of folk dances, songs and music of other countries, whether held in England or elsewhere.

e.        Also in furtherance of the above objects to prepare and publish, issue and make use of, for sale, performance or otherwise, such books, journals, records, reports, and other literature, and means and apparatus for the visual and mechanical reproduction of folk dances, songs and music as may seem desirable.

f.        To make, obtain and distribute, by sale or otherwise, instruments and other articles of whatever description requisite for the performance or practice of folk dances, songs and music in accordance with the above objects.

Derek Schofield

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 04:42 PM

fair enough, thats all cleared up, thanks very much,.
apologies to peta webb, I assumed [ my fault ]That everyone was an unpaid volunteer.
again, when I read about the poor facilities[described in saturday night sharp house Dances],I quite logically thought, this was because efdss could not afford to pay people to run decent facilities.
Glad to hear the society is not in a financial predicament[ maybe it was the statement about closing its doors six years ago]that gave me the wrong impression.
If you still need /or want my donation for a songwriting competition,the offer is still on the table,.
I wish the society all the best and hope, it goes from strength to strength.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 04:03 PM

I have a fair bit of respect for Mr Schofield, too. :)

In fact, it was he who told me that "international" in this context was usually used to cover the other parts of the British Isles - the ones that aren't England.

Unless I misunderstood him.

As he's currently writing the history of the Society, perhaps he's best placed to clarify (unless, of course, he's too busy writing the history of the Society...)

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: johnadams
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:53 PM

To assist Ruth Archer in clarifying the efdss volunteer situation for Dick, the efdss is a charity run by a board of trustees of which I am one. Except in exceptional circumstances, the Charity Commissioners do not allow directors/trustees to profit from a charitable trust by accepting employment. The directors are then, to a man and woman, by definition, volunteers. I only have experience of this one organisation, but I assume this is so for all charities.

Additionally, it is quite natural for charities to attract volunteer effort. It goes with the territory. In most charities you will find a measure of volunteer work going on while the staff get on with core business. The efdss is no different.

Unless I am very much mistaken, Peta Webb is one of two assistant librarians employed by the society to assist Malcolm Taylor in running the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library. Please do not bring employees of the Society into this discussion by name. It's not fair when it's their livlihood.

Financial predicament? Sure the Society is not overflowing with cash but I think you are going too far to describe it thus. From where, in the published and public financial accounts do you draw this conclusion, Dick?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:49 PM

Derek Schofield says,the folk song society,was international in its outlook and not specifically english,the journal published a small number of articles about non english song,including a significant issue about gaelic song.
I respect Derek Schofield as a collector and researcher and have no reason to doubt the truth,of his research.
finally i,ll point out that this thread was started before Derek Schofield replied.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:25 PM

I'd go along with that interpretation, Ruth. Since the early days of the Folk Song Society and EFDSS coincided with a widespread British Empire, I would certainly expect more non-English songs from Hong Kong, India, Africa and other parts of the Empire than appear in the archives if 'international' really had the wide interpretation that has been suggested.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:22 PM

the thread is, efdss what does it mean.
If comhaltas is to be discussed,The correct thing is to start adiffernt thread.comhaltas are a red herring.
[there seems to be some confusion over the exact boundaries of the folk song side of the society],if it doesnt state anywhere in its statutes, that its aims are exclusively english,then its aims are the promotion of all folk song wherever it comes from.
the reason for this thread is for some clarification,folkie dave and derewk schofield say one thing,johnadams mentioned england, scotland, and was it the caribbean,in the efdss dances at the house thread,.
Ruth Archer assumes its other bits of Britain,[ Does that include the falklands, st helena ,etc].,its all rather unclear,if it does include wales and scotland[it seems like they have been forgotten about]

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: GUEST,Gonzo
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 01:55 PM

Just a casual point, but is Dick Miles able to read or is he still coloring in his last Yuletide present?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 12:16 PM

I haven't forgotten them.

I think they have always relied on a volunteer council, but also have paid employees. Someone may wish to correct me...

It's not my interpretation of "international", Dick. It is primarily how the Folk song Society itself interpreted "international" - or so I've been told by those closely involved in the society for many years. Of course, that was then. EFDSS, in incorporating the Folk Song Society, may not even still have such a remit on its statutes (again, I'm sure someone much cleverer than me could enlighten us).

You may feel that Comhaltas is irrelevant to the discussion, but I'm talking about the future of traditional culture. You live in Ireland. I live in England. I'm suggesting that if the preservation of a mono-culture is good enough for one, why shouldn't it be for the other? Irish traidtional music is, as we are constantly being reminded, in much better health than its English counterpart. So how can you suggest that the society entrusted with the preservation and proliferation of English traditional culture must adapt and become multicultural to reflect the society it sits in, thereby dilituing its central objective, while Comhaltas is allowed to perpetuate the notion of a mono-culture, which is increasingly irrelevant in contemporary Ireland? After all, if we're going to talk about justifying international public funding, Eire has had an awful lot of it, while at the same time being rather slow in embracing its new-ish multiculturalism. What a significant statement it would be if Comhaltas opened its doors to ALL of Ireland's folk cultures, helping them to feel at home and culturally valued...

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:21 AM

I disagree with your interpretation of international.
comhaltas are irrelevant to this discussion.
I have no interntion of joining,however my offer of 200 prize money is still on offer,be it for a traditional unaccompanied singing competition,or a song writing competition[but the money is specifically for song].
my repeated threads about efdss,have been an attempt to draw them out[ efdss] and publicise what they are doing[ there is no such thing as bad publicity],and efdss have benefited from this publicity.
the worst thing for efdss is for them to be forgotten about ,particuarly when they are in such a financial predicament that they have to rely upon unpaid volunteers.
I repeat well done, to all the unpaid volunteers,.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:31 AM

So if there's money available, EFDSS should chase it? Regardless of whether the money helps the society to achieve its core aims? Dick, that's nonsense. One of the first things we used to teach in Introduction to Fundraising (when I taught such things) was not to let the funding lead your work. Know what your objectives are. Know what you want the funding to help you achive. Even know which areas might be open to compromise. But NEVER change your core objectives to fit the funder's criteria. That's the cart leading the horse. It's reactive, non-strategic, and ultimately leads to an organisation with no clear aims or focus.

I understand that the "international" dimension of the Folk Song Society was chiefly to do with the other bits of Britain, BTW, rather than being a truly international remit. The recently-published annual Folk Music Journal demonstrates that this commitment is still upheld, as there are a couple of very interesting articles on Scottish music.

Change their name? They are the English Folk Dance and Song Society. Their cheif remit is about the preservation and proliferation of English folk music and dance. What's to understand?

You have a serious fly in your ear about EFDSS, Dick. I'd reiterate the suggestion that you join and help to change things. Or better still, try getting Comhaltas to open its arms to all those lovely new emigrants to Eire, with all their diverse folk musics. Surely they have ever such a lot to contribute to the new, diverse Irish culture. I'd hate to think that Ireland would perpetuate its cultural insularity now that it is such a strong socio-economic position. Surely the preservation od a mono-culture is no longewr defensible in the face of all the EU funding that has propped up the Irish economy...

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:57 AM

apologies to all the other unpaid volunteers, working for efdss,I dont knoew your names but well done.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 04:37 AM

Ruth,the difference between comhaltas and efdss,is that comhaltas quite clearly states what it is about,the preservation of Irish traditional music,it however on occasions has welcomed international dancers.
I am sorry, but the song side of efdss is international,therefore its main role is preserving and encouraging english folk dance and international folk song.
ONCE an organisation accepts grants [taxpayers money equals efdss sport grant]its not just up to the membership [taxpayers in theory or government should be entitled to a say].,although in practice it will probably be decided by the membership.
however I agree its not up to me as im not an efdss member or an english taxpayer.
if there is plenty of funding around for the organisations who wish to engage in this area,efdss members should be consulted on this matter and allowed to vote on it, that is only fair and democratic,.
creating these oppurtunities should be one of their aims, otherwise they should change their name, they are the english folk dance and folk song society,folk song being not exclusively English.
   just because I am not a member does not prevent me from having opinions,and it is my opinion that encouraging multi cultural folk song and obtaining grants AND INCREASING MEMBERSHIP[to others of different nationalities. is just as relevant as letting the society hire the house to ballroom dancers[IN FACT ITS MORE RELEVANT]because it is a folk related event.
efdss clearly needs[if it has to rely on unpaid volunteers]to get money from wherever it can,if the efdss membership reject oppurtunities like these,they deserve to go to the wall, that is my opinion, it is also my opinion that these oppurtunities should have been seized years ago ,but theN the society was definitely dance orientated
now with people like john adams and peta webb assisting the society[and well done to both of them for their unpaid work ],I hope my ideas might be given more seroius consideration.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:32 AM

DMcG said:

"because there are pros and cons both ways, but is is another matter, and that's up to the entire membership, not just you and I, or even the whole committee."

Actually, its not up to Dick Miles in any context, as he is not an EFDSS member.

I am, and I feel that (a) the kind of twinning Dick suggests would only reinforce the London-centricity that gets up so many people's noses already, and (b) regardless of what the Folk Song Society's focus may have been, the state of indigenous music, song and dance in England is worrying enough - the idea of EFDSS taking on some kind of multicultural brief would only serve to dilute its main role, which is about developing and preserving English folk dance and song (the clue's in the name, funnily enough).

Please don't misunderstand me: cross-cultural work is very important, and I've run loads of education projects with culturally diverse communities (and there's plenty of funding around for the organisations who wish to engage in this area). But EFDSS has its work cut out just in the area of English dance and song. If opportunities for working with other cultural groups emerge organically, that's great. But creating those opportunities should not be EFDSS's main focus.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:12 AM

Dick, How welcoming is Comhaltas in Eire to the new wave of emigrants, their cultures and musics?

Just wondering.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Fidjit
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 03:39 PM

Can someone please take Dick Miles spoon away from him.

Chas

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 11:35 AM

it is the job of the society to reach out and encourage immigrants to come...
Could be I fully agree with, ought to be is arguable, and I may or may not agree, because there are pros and cons both ways, but is is another matter, and that's up to the entire membership, not just you and I, or even the whole committee.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 11:31 AM

John Adams This thread was made 9 33am, before derek schofield replied[which was 9 34 am].

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 11:23 AM

fair play to you for working for the society for nothing.
its a pity that you dont have the time and inclination,because as a director of the society, you should know that it doesnt stand for j English song ONLY.
the possibilities for involving all different immigrants and their songs, should be given a welcoming hand, they should be encouraged to come to the house,yes and it is the job of the society to reach out and encourage immigrants to come[ not just wait for them to hire the hall],why,because people from other countries, do not necessarily feel confident about making the approach,they are in a strange country,and when they come they need to be made to feel at home.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: johnadams
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 09:02 AM

Sorry, Captain but I'm going to have to correct you again. I don't work for the Society, at least not in the employed sense. I am an unpaid volunteer director.

Also, I am presently engaged in designing and managing yet another important new web site for the Society so please forgive me if it seems that I haven't the time (or the inclination) to react in detail every time you take it into your head to start yet another thread about the Society. It's just that I don't have the time and the inclin.......


Apart from that, Derek S replied to your question in another thread.......

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 08:19 AM

the reason I asked the question, was that I was corrected by John Adams[ Who works for the society]who said, it stands for English folk song.
Prior to my being corrected by folkie dave,that was my idea as well. however it stands for folk song[in the international context].
it seems to me that should [if it was marketed properly] give it a wider appeal,
oppurtunites for twinning, with whoever camden or london are twinned to etc,involvement of organisations like the British council,just for starters.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 07:37 AM

It is a wonderful organisation, and does wonderful things. I too used to go to C# House 40 years ago when Jack and Margaret King ran the Cellar Club.
It has always, and will always have/had jokes made about it, get over it, there's no malice in it, well not on my part anyway.
It's 'The Establishment' for Christ's sake, establishments always get knocked, it's human nature.
Giok

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:33 AM

Gentle fun is fine, but I'm more concerned with an attitude evident in in a number of threads over the years that the EFDSS is not what real folkies like us are about. If we, of all people, neglect the society we shouldn't complain (as I think many of us do) that the English are dismally unaware of their own folk culture - except, of course, when indulging in the traditional sport of poking fun at(ho ho) Morris dancing.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:07 AM

I think the posters here are just poking a bit of gentle fun at it. (But maybe I'm wrong).

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:02 AM

You need to have a pretty high opinion of your own achievements before you knock the EFDSS. Well over fifty years ago,I heard and saw Bert Lloyd, Ewan MacColl, Jean Ritchie, Seamus Ennis, Alan Lomax, Cyril Tawney and many others - all for the first time and all at Cecil Sharp House. The Society was doing amazing work before many of its critics were born. If you don't think it is doing great work today (and are you sure you'd know?) - join it and change it. But don't undermine it.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 04:28 AM

Aarrgh! Get over it guys! I can't believe the amount of old baggage people are carrying about that organization. From where I stand (as a non-resident member for the past 6 years and reading about CURRENT activities), it sounds like most of the organization has moved on, but too many people's perception of it has not.

How do you expect them to be able get anything accomplished if you perpetuate stereotypes that are 30 years old??

~ Becky in Tucson
post NYE dance here, and maybe about to finally come down from the buzz and fall in bed!

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 03:49 AM

Or as someone once put it, silver haired old ladies of both sexes.

eric

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 01:19 PM

Joking referred to as the English Ping-Pong & Prance Society!
G.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Anglogeezer
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 01:11 PM

Go to EFDSS which say

"The Folk-Song Society, founded in 1898, was the outcome of a number of individual folk song collectors and enthusiasts who wanted to share their experience and improve the quality of collecting and publishing. No geographical limit was set to the Society's activities, and although the main interest were the folk songs of Britain and Ireland, the Journal of the Folk-Song Society published articles from other countries as well."

regards
Jake

Subject: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 09:33 AM

4 aug 06      FOLKIE DAVE, corrected me and informed me that EFDSS,meant english folk dance and song society,that the english part only refers to the dance side,the folk song society when it merged with the english folk dance society in 1932,still remains the folk song society[and is not exclusively english ]therefore international,.can someone in authority at e.f.d.s.s. confirm this.