Who is/ are the EFDSS?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:46 PM

"Native English" folk music has taken a fair battering in the modern world; and it is the tradition of the largest ethnic community in the country, sometimes called "the host community" - even if they don't always know too much about it.

It seems reasonable enough to me that those factors should be reflected in the priorities of the EFDSS when it comes to publications and suchlike.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:49 PM

"yes - but don't ask me to say which bits are indigenous and which bits not ... the polka? French-Canadian tunes? Harry Cox songs like Black Velvet Band? Contra?"

Hmmm, I should have known better than to expect a straightforward answer. It's not quite so clear-cut, is it?


"I can't speak for EFDSS as a whole....."

no - but i'm hoping John might shed some light...


"come come, just because you were born in Northumberland, that still makes you English and David and the rest of the Archers have made you very welcome in Borsetshire, until your nasty experience with a rude cowman ..."

*rolls eyes* What was I saying earlier about having respect for you, Mr Schofield...?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:58 PM

Ruth I think it is alright to call him "Derek". Mr. Schofield sounds very formal and I have met him and know him to be a very friendly person. I am sure he will not be offended by familiarity, indeed he may even enjoy it.

And if, by calling me Dave you are reminded of the marriage vows you nearly broke then I would be very happy.

How could you - a cowman? Surely someone from the local Borsetshire Agricultural College would have been available?   

Dave

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:11 PM

Thank you Deeeeeyvid. I shall endeavour to be familiar with Mr Schofield in future, and hope that he enjoys it.

I had an illicit affair with one of the staff because I thought it might wipe that smug, self-satified look off the faces of my husband and my in-laws. But noooooo...still smug. Still Archers.

Ahem...where were we?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:19 PM

enter Tom forest singing THE LINCOLNSHIRE POACHER,Its my delight on a shining night in the season of the year,.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: johnadams
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:49 PM

Bert wrote:

And dont forget "The British Association of American Square Dance Clubs" and "The Society for International Folk Dancing"

I'd love to hear about them. Do they attract as much controversy as efdss?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: johnadams
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:59 PM

My take? I personally interpret the interest area of the Society thus....

Considering English folk culture
Where it came from
Who it is shared with
How it is celebrated now
Where it spread to and what they're doing with it
Where it is going in the future
What's enriching it locally
What the commonality is with those around us.

With regard to publication priorities, as a member, I wouldn't expect to see journal or magazine articles about Peruvian flute music because it doesn't immediately seem to connect with English folk culture. Also it's well covered in other journals and mags and I think we should cover areas that are not dealt with elsewhere.

I would not be at all surprised or upset to see an article about the street drama or the Goombay(?) dancers of the Caribbean because it is so obviously similar to our mummers plays and ritual dance.

I wouldn't expect to see translations of Mongolian folk songs in our publications even if their narrative themes were congruent with English songs unless there was some particular link being explored.

I wouldn't be surprised to see translations of Irish Gaelic songs because the geographical and historical proximity of the two cultures makes it relevant to comparison.

And so on.

Others may have a different way of looking at this.

I think I can speak for the organisation when I say that there is trust placed in both our editors that they will reflect the aims and objectives of the society as they interpret them during the time they are doing the job. In a fast moving world the Society's aims and objectives will have to be constantly monitored for their relevance and the publications will reflect current thinking.

Is that what you meant?

J

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Bert
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 12:13 AM

Johnadams says ...Do they attract as much controversy as efdss?..

Well I don't know, I'm sure they have as many problems as any other club or society.

It's many years since I've been in England so I don't know what is going on at the moment. I only mentioned them because I get the impression that people think that the EFDSS is the only game in town.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: johnadams
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 12:37 AM

It certainly seems to be the only one that anybody's starting threads about.

J

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 03:18 AM

Thanks fo that, John - it's exactly the sort of clarification I was hoping for, and it reflects my own understanding of what the Society is about.

It is exciting to think of the Society being able to support opportunities for exploring areas of commonality with England's various cultural groups, as these sorts of exchanges enrich understanding (as well as being good fun). But the central ethos of the society is to do with English folk culture.

As I suggested earlier, the clue's in the name. It's not really rocket science, at the end of the day.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:47 AM

john adams .Its all publicity for efdss,so no harm has been done.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 07:50 AM

presumably, an article on welsh colonisation of patagonia,and their struggle to keep welsh culture[including folk music ]alive,is acceptable as well,has anyone collected this music,in 1860 there were over 600 WELSH settlers.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:39 AM

I think I'd leave that to the Welsh Folk Song Society's magazine ....

Discussions like this raise profile and publicity but it's a pity the discussion can't be a bit more positive.....

Derek

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Fidjit
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 09:03 AM

Dick,
I was in Clare on a couple of visits 2003/4. Found the sessions in the pubs a bit, now whats the word I'm looking for. Unreal? Made up.? Not quite authentic? Do you know what I mean. Seeemingly paid musicians there to start a session feel. Very fake type. Some in Milton Malbay, on that week they have in July, were very authentic though. Even joined in with those ones. Lisdoonvarna and Doolin No way!. Dublin, Temple Bar. Forget it. Nice one in the Lighthouse at Howth though, with Barney McKenna in residence. Also at the center in Monkstown. Teaching the turists dancing and a session in the bar. Also authentic. Think I found the real ones. The others, must just be there for the turists. Now they could be a debateable point. Wotcha fink?

Chas

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 10:02 AM

Sounds like an interesting experience: why not start a thread about it?

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: Fidjit
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 11:00 AM

Good idea Ruth. And there it is.

Chas

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 12:24 PM

derek, I reckon my contributuion to this thread is positive,Ihave praised the hard work of the volunteers.
I have offered 200 sterling for a competition,at no point have I slagged efdss off.
I was genuinely misled by dave eyres comment,and the very badly worded[difficult to understand]clause c and [particuarly d].BUT not negative

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 12:54 PM

I'd take clause c -"To promote and encourage research into and study of the origins, development and traditional practice of English folk dances, songs and music and their relationship with those of other countries" as addressing the whole range of folk music traditions now based in this country, and their relationship with the traditions of other countries from whence it may have originated.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 01:23 PM

John Adams statement a little earlier seems to express the society's position rather well, and also is a very convincing account of what its postion should be. Look at the central core, see how it relates to the peripheries. Sounds perfect to me.
    The danger, of course, faced by both Comhaltas and the EFDSS in the past, is there has often been a temptation to attempt to create a central core, rather than to study or promote it. And that temptation has not always been successfully resisted, in either Ireland or England. In Ireland these tendencies have often led to a kind of "ethnic cleansing" of traditional practises not perceived as sufficiently "Irish". In England, because it is a much bigger place, the temptation has led often to attempts to come up with some sort of lowest common denominator "English" music or dance, which never actually existed in the country but is somehow felt to be an average version of England's traditions. Because, inconveniently for some patriots, there is no such thing as a single entity called "English music" or "Irish music".
    AS Oscar Wilde very nearly said, folk music is never pure and never simple.

Subject: RE: efdss,what does it mean
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 07:55 AM

Pedantic quibble: "England, because it is a much bigger place" - bigger but not that much bigger geographically - 130410 sq km as against 84,412 km sq km.

A lot more people, of course, but when it comes to traditional musicians that population disparity is probably reversed.

There is an enormous variety in the musical traditions in England, true enough. But that's true of Ireland as well. Including in both cases a sizeable and healthy influx of recent immigration, with associated cultural input whuich can add to and enrich the pre-existing traditions.

Subject: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: peggymUK
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:41 PM

Hi, I am not a folkie but I have been 'guesting' in on Mudcat for some time marvelling at the wealth of knowledge there is out there on ethnic and traditional folk arts.
I am currently researching for a thesis entitled "The indigenous folk-arts of England. An examination of the ownership, custodianship, and development of the national folk-treasures of the ethnic English people and their freedom of access to them." I am starting with the EFDSS for obvious reasons but am confused by various visions and values expressed on the EFDSS website.
The 'About Us' webpage states "The EFDSS aims to place the indigenous folk arts of England at the heart of our cultural life", whereas its education arm "draws from the diverse traditional folk arts of England and the British Isles" and "works with a range of organizations fostering links with contemporary, classical, urban and world art forms". Some of its initiatives are distinctly British and along multicultural lines, and the Vaughan Williams mission statement does not mention indigenous or English or England at all. I have copies of the Articles and Memorandum
I would like to invite comment from Mudcat members as to what activities the EFDSS s or should be engaged in, purely in relation to the subject of my thesis. I am still perusing the multitude of Mudcat threads on EFDSS but I have not found this exact thread elsewhere. Many thanks.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:52 PM

For your thesis you need to talk to English Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 12:39 AM

I am exercised as to your precise definitions and implications within your title concept of "the ethnic English people".

Who they? What meaning of "ethnic" here?

Presumably your title has been approved by whichever body you are preparing this thesis for ~~ the nature and purpose of which are not quite clear [higher degree? publication by learned society?]. Was not this question asked when topic accepted?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 04:06 AM

Read 'The Imagined Village' by Geogina Boyes it will explain much and 'Stations of the Sun' by Ronald Hutton

L in C#

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:06 AM

'the national folk-treasures of the ethnic English people and their freedom of access to them'

they're welcome to mine - can't give 'em away!

Best of luck with you endeavour mate, whatever it is you're driving at. I think you need to make your use of language a little less dense, and let us in on the secret of what you're up to. if we can help, I'm sure we will.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 07:30 AM

In the booklet, "Cymdeithas Alawon Gwerin Cymru - The Welsh Folk-Song Society 1908 - 1983" the author D. Roy Saer writes, "A matter that deserves further research is the precise contribution and inter-relationship of native and external influences in the creation of the Society. The (English) Folk-Song Society had been established only slightly earlier, in 1898, and its Irish counterpart in 1904, and it is known that two Irishmen, Sir Harry Reichel (principal of the University College of North Wales, Bangor) and author Alfred Percival Graves, played crucial roles in the development of the Welsh Society. Folk song specialists from England also lent it their ready support: notably Cecil Sharp himself, Miss Lucy Broadwood and Miss Annie Gilchrist. Dr. J. Lloyd Williams, however, maintained - in 1934 - that the actual beginnings of the Society had been indigenous. He might well have been correct: certainly the wave of patriotism which produced it had already been swelling gradually for a quarter of a century and more. And the positive statement in the 1914-15 Report demands respect: 'The Society owes its origin to the Eisteddfod and to the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion.' "

I had gone looking for this quote thinking it would be a bit more specific about the EFDSS link, and it wasn't. I know that, since this booklet was published, this has come up in a lecture at our annual meeting. I do remember that the early CAGC (Cymdeithas Alawon Gwerin Cymru - welsh folk songs soc.) founders turned down a proposal from The Folk Song Society to establish a federal system across the UK, with sub-groups representing 'the nations'. IIRC the Welsh thought they'd flourish better under their own steam; perhaps the Irish and the Scots did as well. I do know that some of the Welsh collectors of the time sent wax cylinders to The Folk Song Society so that suggests they were acknowledging a central role there. It doesn't apply today, however.

sian

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM

Like others I'm a bit bemused by the term "ethnic English music" But, good luck with your research, For all things traditional, you need travel no further than the archivist Doc Rowe....100s of thousands of photos, videos, audio recordings etc, garnered over decades of painstaking collecting. Has just moved his entire archive to Whitby. Also it might be worth checking out John Adams who runs the Village Music project in Yorkshire (and pops in here occasionally )
Also worth checkng out Rod Stradlings site...Musical Traditions.
A treasure trove of information.
Let us know how it goes, I fear you might be some time over this one!!!

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:15 AM

... and here I am Ralphie, just prior to popping out for a Sunday lunchtime tunes session, keeping the English music alive in the Ryburn Valley. I'll maybe contribute an opinion or two later this afternoon.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:21 AM

Hi John!
Have a great session (You probably already are!)
Need to talk to you about another project for the autumn, will get back to you another way! Say hello to anyone who knows me.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Teatime
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

Peggym - haven you contacted EFDSS themselves? If you're looking for information about what the society does, they may be able to help, especially if you're confused by the vague statements on their website.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:56 PM

AS Oscar Wilde very nearly said, folk music is never pure and never simple.
folk music is simple, Oscar Wilde would never have said anything so idiotic

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:23 PM

Who is/ are the EFDSS?

The Erectile Failure and Dysfunction Saddo's Society....?

The English Fart Demons Super Smellers....?

The Endless Fun from Diarrhoea Seminar and Soiree

Enid's (Blyton) Filthy Deflowering of the Secret Seven...

I mean, lets keep an open mind.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 09:38 AM

Isn't Eliza Carthy president of the EFDSS? Or something like that. You could try contacting her. She sometimes contributes to Mudcat and I'm sure she'd be willing to help.

I've never been called ethnic before.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 09:50 AM

Chris M,

I've never been called ethnic before

Your point being?

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 10:45 AM

peggymUK, you might want to define an art as opposed to a craft, embroidery, thatching, pargeting, the naive painters and so on, all have a role depending on where your definitions lie.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: peggymUK
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:48 AM

It seems my inquiry solicited more questions and advice than answers. I hope this helps ... 1. I am mainly interested in traditional folk song and dance that documents the social history of the English people - which is why I made it clear I am focused on EFDSS; 2. Yes, I certainly expected most responses would be from English Mudcat members who might naturally have a vested interest in their own English folk-heritage - I don't see why anyone else would particularly care; 3. The word ethnic seems to be problematic - perhaps read 'native' (which term has been used elsewhere one this website), or 'indigenous' (which is used on the EFDSS website); 4. I am focusing on material and resources that are in the hands of private membership organizations rather than those already in the public domain; 5. Yes, I have already been through the EFDSS website; 6. No, I have not approached EFDSS directly - I can assess myself whether it is delivering to its various Mission statements. I was looking for an opinion or two, mainly, as Bert suggests, from English Mudcatters, as to whether they think the EFDSS is being effective in re-connecting English people with the folksong and dance of their English ancestors. I could have asked this question without giving any background, but if no-one wishes to comment I will move on.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:59 AM

peggymUK
your earlier posting indicated that you were researching for a thesis, which suggests that you are engaged in academic research, perhaps for a post-graduate degree.
Therefore, I am curious to know why you do not identify yourself - with your correct name, perhaps academic credentials, name of academic institution to which you are attached etc.
Alas, mudcat has had its experience of trolls, and some people will be reluctant to engage in pointless discussion and might prefer more information.
Derek

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM

To which I'd add the memory of the gentleman who said he was doing academic research, received information, said he wanted to discuss it and then failed to revert on where and when. Would I be wrong to assume that this is unusual for academic researchers?

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 06:32 AM

Well speak for yourself, Del. I'm always up for a pointless discussion with anybody, without seeing their O level certificates.

I think most fair minded peole would accept that the EFDSS is an honourable attempt to do something honourable. Some of us feel that folk song history and what went on in isolated rural communities has very little to do with a great artform - constructed from the English language.

But that's our opinion. England is what it is, with its class system and all its patronising stultifying nonsense. we're stuck with it.

I did a gig last night with two young singer songwriters both quite brilliant in their own way - writing in vernacular English, about their lives and beliefs and struggles. I felt old fashioned and irrelevant. Will the middle classes ever connect with true folksong - get a handle on what its about? I doubt it.

But it doesn't stop the EFDSS being decent people doing their best, by their lights.

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 07:12 AM

Opinions? You want opinions? These are my opinions ............. and if you don't like 'em I've got lots of others ..........

L in C Marx as it were

Subject: RE: Who is/ are the EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 09:10 AM

I'm thinking it's rather out of touch these days with grass roots Folk clubs, very few know anything about it I've found