BS: my Spouse has left with our son!

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:58 PM

"I got mad, went and got one of the boxes and said "Here, I'll save you the trouble", and bent over to dump it back in the corner it had come from..........When I bent over, Spouse jumped up from the sofa, grabbed me by the wrist and jerked my away from the box, then shoved me across the room."

According to her account, she had a box of her husband's belongings in her hands and was in the process of throwing it when he got up from the sofa, grabbed her wrist and pushed her away.

I don't know how accurate her account is because I wasn't there--but I am hard-pressed to see that as a jailable offence.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,A practical man
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:56 PM

Change the locks.

Sleep (mostly clothed) with a baseball bat.
Don't hesitate to use it.

Keep your son in the same room as you at night.

Keep the dog in at night, he'll probably poison it.

You may or may not be morally right (hell, who cares), but you stand a better chance of safety.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM

Slag, if this is the one place where A.M. felt she could go to get calmed down and begin to think straight, it does indeed speak volumes about her sense of isolation in the midst of abuse. I still find it quite distressing, though.

I don't mean to be a Monday-morning quarterback about this incident, but simply to say to anyone who might find him/herself in a similar situation in the future that: (a) there's a time factor involved in finding a child who has been taken by an adult, so (as hard as it may be to do) one needs to put one's doubts and fears into abeyance and concentrate on notifying the people who can realistically help find the child; and (b) local counselors (police, women's shelter personnel, etc.) have the training and experience to give assistance and advice in such situations, so one has a better chance of finding the help one needs, sooner, than an internet forum that includes posters who don't know the local laws, who question one's story and motives, or who are otherwise unhelpful (and may even deter one from seeking help when one reads that he/she is not being believed).

Sounds like A.M. has her head on straight enough to ignore the nay-sayers here, and that she even has close local friends who are also Mudcatters. I'm happy to see that. But the next person in distress who starts such a thread may not have those strengths to lean on, and reading the less-kind posts may make things worse instead of better. So what I'm saying is that, though Mudcat does have some very kind and caring posters, the forum should not be treated as one's "first responder" in emergencies.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:04 PM

The overwhelming concensus of opinion here seems to be that the spouse shoulders all responsibility for the predicament Anonymous finds herself in. The other side of the story will probably never be revealed on this forum, which is a strange place indeed to unburden oneself and invite all and sundry to give advice. Concern for the child is paramount in a situation such as this and his welfare should take priority, with professional help. However well meaning the advice given here by sincere, concearned posters or friends, it can cause more harm than good if the advice taken is even a fraction off.
The spouse must also be confused and hurting and I wish them all good luck on the hard road ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:29 PM

Glad to hear that the situation seems to be on the road to resolution. Good luck with the outcome and for all concerned. SharonA, I can understand Anonymous turning to the one place she felt she could get calmed down and begin to think straight. See my previous comments on isolation. Going through experiences like this is, for some, one of the most devastating things that can happen to you. Why else all the denial and cover up? Your whole world, that which you have built your life around, is coming apart. Who do you turn to? Family may not understand. They may have had no clue, or at least you may feel that way. And who is thinking clearly at all in such an upheaval? Nor is it over once the physical and legal issues are resolved. I know from personal experience that the emotional and psychological after effects can continue on for years and for some a lifetime if not dealt with professionally.

The biggest temptation is to just quit once the immediate problem is relieved: to think "things are OK now. I can deal with it." The truth is you have just gone througha major ESCALATION of the problem and broken things seldom, if ever, just fix themselves. DON'T QUIT. Follow through. Do what ever it takes but follow this thing through. Until you are safe and can stand autonomously, your not through. Plenty of support here in cyberspace but you need someone physically at hand to help you deal with the situation and its aftermath. Keep going and God bless.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:17 PM

Guest - 04:41 PM

Can you point me to where "by her own account, the poster escalated a verbal exchange to physical violence by throwing objects--and she admits that she was thowing things when she was grabbed and pushed...." because I cant see it anywhere...

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM

I don't think conjectures and speculation are of much help, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Becca72
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:43 PM

My guess would have to be that he "spent the night in jail" for hitting her, not for driving around with his son...

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:41 PM

I'm not sure that we have a real abuse victim here--there was violence--, even by her own account, the poster escalated a verbal exchange to physical violence by throwing objects--and she admits that she was thowing things when she was grabbed and pushed--this is a toxic relationship, but I'll bet the otherside of it is just as compelling--

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 03:28 PM

Anonymous Member, I'm just seeing this thread for the first time today, and am very relieved to see that your son has been found and is back home, safely, with you. I'm also impressed that your husband ended up in jail last night; this would seem to negate the comments on this thread about his not having done anything wrong in the process of disappearing with your son in tow. Just a wild guess here, but I have to wonder whether "disorderly conduct" or "resisting arrest" might have been part of the reason for his incarceration.

Around here (the Philadelphia PA area), they issue Amber Alerts quite often, and usually for incidents of child abduction that had occurred just an hour or two before the alert. For the uninitiated, an "Amber Alert" is a notification via the local broadcast media (radio, television, the websites of those stations, lighted signs on the PA and NJ turnpikes, and some cellphone providers) of the abduction along with any available descriptions of the child, abductor, vehicle, license plate number, etc., and a phone number to call. Most of these local alerts result in the return of the child because, in our soundbite-saturated culture, a LOT of people are listening and hence are on the lookout for the kid. Sometimes the abductor simply gives him/herself up, knowing that there's no place to hide. A.M., had I been reading your thread when you first posted, I would have advised you to call the police immediately and let them decide what steps were necessary to take (including the possibility of issuing your state's equivalent of an Amber Alert, and deciding how wide an area should be notified). They should have been the ones to tell you whether your husband was guilty of kidnapping in your state, not a bunch of Mudcatters from other states and countries.

As it is, I understand your desire to "talk" to the forum and seek advice while trying to calm down and organize her thoughts. However, it distresses me to see that posting here was a step you took before talking to your relatives and nearby friends, or to your husband's relatives, and long before talking to the police. The fact that a women's shelter or domestic-violence center hotline didn't even occur to you is especially worrisome, and even more so in the light of the documented abuse by your husband in the past and counseling he'd received. Why depend on the "kindness of strangers" here (or, in the case of some of the posters here, not-so-kind-ness), and the randomness of the possibility of receiving good advice depending on who was reading the thread at the time, when the situation demanded the more "pro-active" action that the more responsible posters advised?

Perhaps, as some have suggested, it's the result of having suffered your husband's long-term emotional abuse, volatility and intimidation, always with the specter of the past physical abuse looming and threatening to come back to life (as it finally did!). Nothing like being made to second-guess yourself all the time (ever see the movie "Gaslight"?). All too often, it takes some sort of action on the part of the abuser that "crosses the line" -- shoving, breaking a nose, or (in my own case) dragging the abusee across the floor by the skin of her arm -- to force the abusee to action. BUT (!!!) who drew that line, and where? In other words, the abuser has long since crossed society's line for decent behavior, but he terrifies his target into retreating and drawing new, arbitrary lines that he continues to cross until the abusee is cornered and has no place left to retreat to, and no ground left on which to draw a new line.

Unfortunately, it's human nature to give your loved one the benefit of the doubt and to be hopeful that things are "improving" simply because his behavior is temporarily less outrageous than the day before. A.M., your rationalization that you "don't think my son is at risk riding in the car with" a man you just said was "a heavy closet drinker and pot smoker" only because you detected "no alcohol on his breath when they arrived home" (not exactly a scientific analysis -- closet drinkers hide the evidence of their habit!). even though you'd just been shoved by him, he'd just broken a "sturdy" plastic file-box, and you had no idea what he was drinking or smoking after you left to drive around the block and after he took off for God-knows-where with your son... that rationalization was deeply, deeply disturbing to me. As others have said, you need counseling to counteract the effects of abuse and to stop rationalizing it away. You need to learn to pay attention to your instinct to seek help, to validate that instinct, and to overcome your doubts and fears about using the resources available to you in your community (not just the Mudcat "community"!).

At least you finally took some steps in the right direction, and soon enough to get your son back. You have a long, hard fight ahead of you... but then, you had a long, hard fight behind you, too. Now you three have a chance to change your lives for the better. Hope you can get your husband on some medication to control his impulses and ADD, and that you and your son grow in strength together. All the best of... not "luck", but love and support... to all of you!

Sharon

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:38 PM

I am very happy to hear that you have been re-united with your son.

This roller-coaster ride is not over. Continue to seek help and support in the community. Document everything. Get a lawyer.

...and yes, beware of the abusive husband that will try to convince you that he will change and that 'things' will be different.

Remind your son that you both love him and that this problem is between you and your husband. Tell him that as his mother, you will do whatever is necessary to provide a better quality of life for him. Be vigilant. Children often blame themselves for family strife.

Remember that this is just a blip on the big screen of life. It too, will pass in time.

Good luck to you.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:03 PM

I'm glad your son is back, and my thoughts are with you for the future.

Take care and be safe. - Whatever steps are necessary to ensure you of that.

My thoughts and well wishes for you.

Nic

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:27 AM

Dear Anonymous Member, thanks for the update. I'm glad your son is home safe, and I wish you strength to get through the rest of this.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Becca72
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:10 AM

that should be "a bit" not "a big"

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Becca72
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:04 AM

From my side of that conversation dad, I was told "Your father left US". Not "Me", "US". But then, mother was always a big of a whack-job.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Alba
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:55 AM

correction...

"Candle is lit as I type!

**small smile**
Love
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Alba
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:00 AM

Anon Member.

All I can offer you right now is {{{{{{hugs}}}}}} and the offer of a PM if you need to download.

Sending strength your way for the day ahead and a candle is lit as a type for you All.
Love and Light and more power to you.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:30 AM

What a relief for you that you have your son home again and safe. It sounds as if you have got things just a little on track right now.

One of the other things I learned from the training sessions I had was that, when things calm down the abusive partner can be very good at using whatever tactics necessary to get back into the relationship. The use of contrition toward the abused partner is very well known and the cry of "It won't happen again" may soften the resolve.

Problem is, it will happen again and the behaviour is not going to change. In your case your partner has been through the Domestic Violence programme and it didn't stick. He has used drink and drugs for many years. The likelihood is that he will continue to behave in a way that is bad for you and your son. Because of the way in which abusers manipulate their victims it may be difficult for you to resist his pleadings. Just remember that his situation is of his own making, for whatever reason, and that you CANNOT change him. Whatever happens to him from now on is down to him. He is the only person who can change his life and move on but he won't if you let him back into your life.

Now that your son is fully aware of the problem your best course of action is to make sure that the rest of his childhood is as safe and secure as you can make it and to break the chain that might continue into the next generation if he was to accept his home life as the norm.

There are people here who have done this - it isn't easy and you will need all the support you can find, as will your son. At some point family counselling may be of use and I'm sure that the Domestic Violence Counsellor at the Sheriffs office would be able to point you in the right direction.

Good luck and give your son a hug from me.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:27 AM

When I left my first wife she declared. "You are not taking MY daughter." Not OUR daughter, MY daughter.
Typical mother.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Tinker
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:12 AM

Good Morning ! One step at a time and keep walking ( and talking) Give your son a couple of extra hugs from all of us and keep a few for yourself. Follow the link and click on number 2 when you need a smile and a pep talk.

Don't Mess with Me I'm Somebody's Mother

Keep in touch

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:45 AM

The roller coaster has reached a flat - hang on for the next descent - we are still here. I found long ago, the one thing we observers take from this is - "well at least I don't have that problem" and that gives us something. Thanks for sharing it.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:13 AM

I've only just seen this post. I'm glad it looks as though you are sorting yourself out and that you have help from local and professional people, as well as the emotional support of the wonderful Catters. It's a great community to belong to in times of crisis.

Please don't be downhearted over the negative posts here, indeed try to ignore them, although I know that is hard.

You have a lot of offers of PMs here and I would offer mine too. Whatever you say will, I assure you, go no further.

Good luck in all your endeavours. Keep yourself and your son safe and be good to yourself too.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: MBSLynne
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:10 AM

Good luck. I'm so relieved that your son is home safe. Keep us posted please.

If this were a made up story, I think the best thing the people who believe it to be so could do is stop reading it. You may think that to be the case, but you can't be sure, and, as jacqui (I think) says, the last thing a person who has been abused needs to be told is that it's their fault or that they are making it up. One of the big problems of domestic abuse is that the victim convinces themselves that they are at fault.

Some of us aren't really bothered if we are being set up. It makes no fools of us to show that we are caring people whatever the situation, and these things happen too often for it not to ring horribly true.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Hawker
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:06 AM

Big hug to you and your son, hope all turns out well. There ARE poeople here who care and we are all thinking of you
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 03:29 AM

Just a quick point

DELETE your browser history - if in doubt, open the history pane, expand mudcat, right click on any instances of this kind of thread, and select delete. Repeat till all done.

long term use of Pot can present with paranoia. It is more than apocrophal. Given the situation it would spark more trouble if the evidence were to be found. Paranoia would make it more likely he would look for it.

Best of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:36 AM

So it's all happening - it is scary isn't it. Many years later, I still remember how it felt - you wonder if you will have the strength to keep on going, but you do.

You are taking the appropriate action, and it will work out because you are making it work out. You will find courage and strength you didn't know you had!

Do keep coming back here for moral support, and as I said before, feel free to PM me any time. I know what you're going through.

More energy coming from Oz,

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:23 AM

Get a good night's sleep. I read this yesterday but didn't respond--you were getting some good advice from others (I disagree that Mudcat isn't the place to bring this--anyone who posts here knows they're not coming for private binding legal advice, but for a shoulder to cry on and a friendly ear and sometimes for darned good recommendations).

Keep thorough records, be consistent with your son and with your husband, and make sure you file the papers. The morning light may make things seem different, less urgent. That is an illusion.

Good luck.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Anonymous Member
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:13 AM

My heartfelt thanks to those of you who have offered what I asked for--ears to listen. I think, before this is over, I'll be pm'ing more than a few of you who have offered that, especially some of you have been through similar situations and know just how hard it is to put this in motion, then stay the course.

    An update, because I won't be pm'ing everyone who has reached out and lent a helping hand to me on this thread.

    My son is home with me, and his Dad, sadly, is in jail for the night. I just finished writing out the petition for a restraining order that the domestic violence counsellor at the Sheriff's office gave me to bring home to complete. I have to be in court at 9:00 this morning to file it.

    I am exausted, scared, more relieved than words can say that my son is safe and at home, and very, very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:38 PM

Oh puhleaze - Mudcat the 4th emergency service? You are being yanked.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:09 PM

Well, apart from these so-called "GUESTs" running away with such a serious subject, let me just say the the police and members of fire departments don't sit around and debate whether a call is authentic or not. They respond and respond as though the situation is exactly that which was reported. And so too here. My experienced advice stands. Your one and only duty right now is to the safety of your son and yourself. Everything else can be worked out later. This goes for anybody who is in an abusive situation.

Jacqui is right. Abuse usually begins very subtley and is almost always psychologically controlling. The abuser seeks to isolate his or her victims. Shame can be a powerful component or tool to this end, hence the messy house that he will not tolerate being cleaned. The abuser himself is probably unaware of his tactics because this behavior was learned in their own abused childhood. Only a psychopath would intentionally set out to be abusive. The neurotic abuser can, however, slip over into the pyschotic side of things and then there is extreem danger...this is why you can't take chances or make believe and it is also why you should ignore any other advice to the contrary.

I hope you find the strength to do the right thing. This goes for anyone in an abusive relationship and it can and does happen to males also.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:42 PM

and if it is any business of yours, 6:13, I have been busy, had a cold, and am TRYING to be careful where I post...but I have been here 10 years & 3 months, and am not about to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:39 PM

I can make a wild guess who the 'sceptic' is

I can't believe anyone would work that hard and make up that much as a joke....

It must be assumed it is real.....

This is a community of those who share a music forum!..We have history for a number of years of helping, advising, supporting and supporting members with problems. Good advice has been offered, and some thoughtless, insensitive replies tossed in.

To those who are perpetually cynical & critical of those who ask for help here, I am glad YOU are so self-sufficient and strong....so go away and let those willing to help do so.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:37 PM

No it wasn't Bill D. But it was a ember that you all love and trust.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:34 PM

I can see you haven't been around here very long....(Guest, 3:20pm)

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:34 PM

Nothing wrong in that at all. And equally nothing wrong in those of us who KNOW it is a sicko fantasy calling it as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,6:13, etc.
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:32 PM

Well, considering that Bill D doesn't post much anymore, and just reappeared today...could it be Bill D is the poster referred to by Guest 4:44?

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:20 PM

Well, Guest 6:33pm...I am the original Mudcat skeptic ( BillD can guess who I am), and I too thought this might be a windup but my advice stands and the advice and comment is based on what is presented. Mudcatters have been hosed many times by individuals making up stories to present. So they give advice, so what? Someone else can use somewhere, sometime, someplace.    (Guest, 3:20pm, goofing off)

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,6:13, etc
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:14 PM

This will likely come as a great shock to many contributors to this thread but, at one time, rather than a support group for the dysfunctional among us, this forum used to be about the discussion of music.

And actually, the vast majority of music chat forums actually limit what is discussed to--shock and awe!--MUSIC!

Oh, what the fuck is my point...

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:04 PM

Gizmo all you have found out is which mudcatters have such egos they actually swallowed this crock of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:49 PM

I never said I would do the same in a similar situation, only that whatever situation occurs be you online or in real world, there are still a few individuals that would help someone in need without question to how it would enhance their own egos.

And I have found out since, which catters are good souls and who care

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:16 PM

Really gizmo? If you ever find yourself in a similar situation and can only get help from an internet forum then do the decent thing and hand your child over to the authorities as you would be as deranged as the person starting this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Hawker
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:15 PM

Whoever you are, anonymous member, be you real or made up, I send you my kindest thoughts and hope that everything gets better for you. If this is a real situation, I am not qualified to offer any help excepting my love and sympathy for your situation, there have been a lot of wise words said here already and it is ultimately you who knows what is best for you. If this is a made up scenario I offer you my love and compassion for needing to do this. There are a lot of Lovely caring and beautiful people on this site and I am sure like me they send you the wish for peace and calm that you so obviously deserve.
With love,
Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM

Even if this was not real, I would not take back what I have posted, as people heave certainly shown their true feelings when confronted with a situation like this.

Bearing in mind that the thread was started by someone anonymous, I know from the replies which catters I would be able to rely on if ever there was I time I am in need, and who I would like to be near when in an emergency.

I would rather be a gullible human, than a cynical cold fish any day.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,6:13, etc
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM

Hopefully this Anon Member person will follow my advice, and seek the help of a mental health professional.

If this is a false story, they need the help of mental health professional, and if this is a true story, they need the help of a mental health professional.

Either way, they don't need these dangerous, well-intentioned Mudcat hysteria mongers to ratchet up their already acute paranoia level, yes?

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:02 PM

NAPPY.....COBBLERS

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:00 PM

Yes they are and it isn't the first time they have done it.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,6:13/6:23/6:33 PM
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:56 PM

Somebody going by the handles "Anonymous Member" and "Concerned Friend" are jerking some chains, which is pretty damn juvenile.

And the way they are choosing to do it is pretty disgusting, too.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Cobble
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:50 PM

Guest I presume you are a 10 year old poking your nose into grown-up things go and change your nappie.

                Cobble.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Pelrad
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:42 PM

Concerned Friend,

Please make sure your friend wipes out anything on her computer that leads to these posts. I know several people whose DV situation escalated because the spouse found their posts on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: open mike
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:39 PM

i hope it is true that they are home safe,
or at least located. I wonder if any of the
places they went to on thier previous travel
were re-visited after they left again?

perhaps it is fortunate that this is
happening at the new year, and there
can be a "resolution" to take care of
clutter....i will try to resolve to do
the same!~

good luck and hang in there.