BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 03:52 PM

There are a few US Interstate highway sections where strong winds occur frequently, and it's fairly common for warnings to be posted specifically for "large vehicles" whenever it's unusually windy, and on some occasions to shut down the roads - excluding large vehicles and rarely all vehicles due to wind conditions.

Somehow the ones who never see themselves as "large vehicles" are the tourists pulling 80 foot trailers, 11 feet tall, with an underpowered pick'em up truck.

Re. the economy of trucks:

An individual passenger vehicle transports an actual payload of 200 pounds (one occupant), and may average 20 miles per gallon, for an effective transport efficiency of 2 ton-miles per gallon. Even if it gets 50 miles per gallon, its "transport efficiency" is only 5 ton-miles per gallon of gas.

A typical long-haul truck in the US carries a 30 ton payload (80,000 lb GVW, 60,000 lb payload) and invariably gets a little more than 4 miles per gallon, for a "transport efficiency" of 120 ton-miles per gallon of gas.

Which should be removed from the road to improve "efficiency" and reduce fuel consumption?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: GUEST,tinker
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 07:21 AM

I work for a foam company and drive an artic, but carry 3 tonnes when fully loaded, being 16ft high and 50 ft long the strong winds are a big factor in artics overturning. Do you think there should be a legislation for high siders travelling in high winds.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 05:54 PM

And, of course, there's the vexed question of whether there needs to be so many trucks when railways might be a better and less polluting option.

Have you seen the price of rail tickets recently? It was actually cheaper to fly from London to Glasgow and back AND stay overnight in a hotel, than it was to make a single journey from London to Glasgow.*


* These may not be the actual towns in the article I can no longer find, but they were of a similar distance apart.

One route from Cambridge to London Liverpool St will see a rise this year of nearly £100 for season tickets - this will take the cost to nearly £3,500. Taking weekends and bank holidays into account, that works out to around £13.60 a day. And that's just for one passenger. Freight is more expensive and still requires unloading and local transport. Ever noticed just how far away new railway stations are from the centre of town?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 12:30 PM

A minor quibble?:

Clearly the Highways Agency believed driver error to be the cause, or they would not have gone to the expense of quickly deploying temporary matrix signs specifically targetting HGVs

I would think that "driver error" would tend to make the need for quick action less likely as it would be unlikely that succeeding drivers would make the same error.

There are a number of reasons why road condition, visibility, or other unusual or unexpected features of a place on the road could be a hazard to vehicles of a particular kind. Signs are needed to warn the approaching driver(s) that "it ain't what it looks to be."

In the US, the sudden appearance of new warning signs would (often) be presumed to mean "somebody's gonna sue us if we don't fix the road, so we'll put up a sign to shift the blame." (note a slight bit of cynicism)

The specific conditions that need a warning for heavy vehicles may be invisible to other kinds of operators, but it's quite likely that the place where the signs go up has a feature that presents a hazard that isn't obviously apparent to approaching vehicle operators.

Changes in accident frequency in a place generally appear when traffic patterns have changed, meaning that more traffic, or more of a different kind of traffic, is being diverted to/through a place that's always had the same hazard but is now exposed to more vehicles of the kinds affected by the peculiarities of the place.

At the bottom line, it can almost always be said that an overturned vehicle was going too fast for the conditions at the time and place of the accident, but there are often physical conditions of the time and location that make it difficult for drivers (of all classes of vehicles) to know when a reduced speed is appropriate without the assistance of warnings.

Smaller vehicles are inherently more maneuverable, especially with respect to their ability to change speed quickly, than larger ones; so a little "oh shit" that's an annoyance that's hardly noticed to small vehicles is a "HOLY ***!.. MOTHER OF ...!!" for large ones. Those without knowledge and experience with the operation of large vehicles may find it difficult to perceive what conditions are responsible for accidents involving vehicles other than the kinds they're familiar with; but there usually are "physical features of place" that contribute to them if one looks hard enough.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Scoville
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 10:40 AM

OK. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 10:40 AM

Heavy Goods Vehicle which has now been superceded by
Large Goods Vehicle, and PSV is
Public Service Vehicle usually a bus or a coach.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: HuwG
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 10:38 AM

HGV = Heavy Goods Vehicle. Depending on the laden weight, a Class III (lightest), Class II or Class I HGV Licence is required to drive one, with the tests becoming steadily more stringent.

PSV = Passenger Service Vehicle. Usually (but not always) includes minibuses (passenger-carrying vans), includes all buses. Again, depending on weight and passenger capacity, stringent tests must be passed to gain a licence to drive one. (Taxis and hired limousines do not come under this heading, licencing is usually a matter for the local authority.)

LGV = Light Goods Vehicle. Vans, vanettes, pick-up trucks and the like. Usually, a normal driving licence will allow you to drive one.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Scoville
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 10:05 AM

When I lived in Colorado and we'd drive up into the mountains, there were always a few vehicles overturned at the bottom of the drop below the road. This was before the big Age of SUV's but they were invariably Jeeps or something Jeep-like (Suzuki Samurai, etc.). Narrow, high center of gravity vehicles. Mostly people driving too fast for the weather conditions, narrow roads, and rather sharp curves. We drove a VW bus and (obviously) never had trouble, even though they're both high and narrow, but then we didn't drive like idiots.

*****

Okay--I'll bite, what do HGV, PSV, and LGV stand for? I assume V is "vehicle", but what's the rest?

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 09:44 AM

You get a railway to run to all our back doors, and your problem is solved.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 09:30 AM

"Well Shimrod, if you buy anything in a shop, the odds are that a truck brought it there."

Yes, 'John (Giok) Mackenzie', can't argue with that. But it doesn't give truck drivers licence to drive like homicidal maniacs - nor to attempt to overtake each other on gradients, causing everyone else on the road to break sharply, often causing a 'ripple effect' stretching miles back down the motorway.

And, of course, there's the vexed question of whether there needs to be so many trucks when railways might be a better and less polluting option. Then there's the fact that many goods are needlessly transported vast distances to fit in with crackpot economic models.

Still, as I say, if the shareholders are happy what does it matter if a few road users die and the environment is damaged ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 08:01 AM

Motor Bus by A D GODLEY

What is this that roareth thus?
Can it be a Motor Bus?
Yes, the smell and hideous hum
Indicat Motorem Bum.
Implet in the Corn & High
Terror me Motoris Bi!
Bo Motori clamitabo
Ne Motore caedar a Bo!
Dative be or Ablative
So thou only let us live:
Whither shall thy victims flee?
Spare us, spare us, Motor Be!
Thus I sang; and still anigh
Came in hordes Motores Bi,
Et complebat omne forum
Copia Motorum Borum.
How shall wretches live like us
Cincti Bis Motoribus?
Domine, defende nos
Contra hos Motores Bos!

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 07:35 AM

They should put a big marble in the bottom, like Weebles.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 07:29 AM

FWIW 4by4's (and SUV's) have the highest rate (per vehicle) of killing those inside than any other class of vehicle let alone those outside those lethal weapons.- though I would reckon motorcycles would not be counted in these stats.

Jeremy (getoutamyway) Clarkson quoting UK gov - that's who said it.

I would reckon the gamble in a bus is much more favourable than a car - even while I am driving and I don't reckon to be unsafe (who does?).

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 05:53 AM

Is that high winds outside or inside the cab?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 05:37 AM

See it's global warming, and not bad driving ¦¬]
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Tootler
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 07:25 PM

In recent times, the police have taken to closing the A1 to HGVs in parts of Durham and North Yorkshire at times of high winds because of the number of vehicles that get blown over. I have seen the police pull wagons over on the A19 and made the drivers roll up the side sheeting on empty ones in high winds.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 01:34 PM

Yup!

;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 01:19 PM

So you are misreading my post!
G

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 01:16 PM

So read my post and see what I actually said...

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 01:13 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John 'Giok' MacKenzie - PM
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:32 PM

Lorries in the UK are speed limited, and as such are unlikely to overturn easily.
Yes schedules are tight, but you can't speed to make up time, due to those same speed limiters.
We have a thing called a tachograph in the cab of HGV's and some buses, and it records the drivers hours and speed, and breaks taken.
Giok"


The first sentence contains the word unlikely Bernard
G

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 01:06 PM

Despite what Giok and Big Phil seem to have read into my posts, I do NOT have a 'down' on truckers.

These two 'Knights of the Road' (as truckers were once known) are not making me laugh with their pathetic attempts at humour answering a serious question. Clearly not all truckers are as perfect as our two friends.

All the overturned lorries I've actually seen had British plates.

FACT:

The one at the Liverpool end of the M62 that fell on top of a stationary vehicle in November, killing its occupant, was from a nearby scrapyard. One would have thought he knew the road. I'm sure the lady's family aren't laughing, nor were those of us whose working morning was seriously disrupted because of the congestion.

No, I'm not laughing, either.

FACT:

The M60-M62 slip road I mentioned in my opening post had three lorries overturned in the space of a week in exactly the same place, and in each case no other vehicle was reported to be involved.

Two of those 'accidents' happened on the SAME DAY. They were all British trucks.

To put it in perspective, that slip road is not renowned for accidents even though it is quite a sharp curve, and it has existed for well over thirty years. I use it at least once a week, and pass by it at least twice every day.

Clearly the Highways Agency believed driver error to be the cause, or they would not have gone to the expense of quickly deploying temporary matrix signs specifically targetting HGVs - by 'quickly' I mean within hours of the second 'accident' on that day. Permanent signs were subsequently installed.

I'm still not laughing.

I am not suggesting that cars don't have accidents - some of the suicidal maniacs I see on the road shouldn't even be in charge of a shopping trolley. That wasn't the question I was asking, though - we all know about them.

In the past year or so still I have SEEN WITH MY OWN EYES significantly more overturned lorries than ever before in my entire life.

The 'statistics' above that I concocted from a brief Google search were merely an illustration of that - the problem seems to be far more serious. The BBC News website alone has 42 reports over the last couple of years...

No, I don't have all the facts. If I did, why would I be asking?

According to Giok you cannot overturn a lorry, anyway - or am I deliberately misreading his post?!

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 06:38 AM

Well Shimrod, if you buy anything in a shop, the odds are that a truck brought it there.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 06:32 AM

"I say 'human error somewhere' because a vehicle has a driver, but it also has a maintenance crew. A poorly maintained vehicle will behave unpredictably, possibly catching the driver unawares."

Bernard, you're obviously not thinking of the shareholders!!

And 'Big Phil', for the record, I have a very low opinion of you and your fellow truckers.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 04:27 AM

I think it is axiomatic that the profit motive will drive down the willingness to maintain. As competition drives down the market price of a service, so it drives down what the supplier of the service can prifitably spend on supplying the service. Some call this "efficiency", but it depends what spending is reduced.

Some coach operators have a very bad reputation on maintenance matters. Some readers may point to the standards of maintenance in rail travel and, in more marginal operators, air travel.

I have seen, I think, other reports that this particular make of coach has suffered repeated problems with the locking of the rear axle, and such a failure would certainly be a plausible possible explanation. I am rather concerned that the kneejerk reaction of the police seems to have been to arrest the driver for causing death by dangerous driving. As far as I know there is no significant evidence yet that the cause of the accident was driver error.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: HuwG
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 01:26 AM

GUEST, Topsie, the double-decker bus involved in the incident with a low bridge may have been one from UK North / Greater Manchester Buses Ltd. Full story here. The rumour is that the firm employed a number of recent Eastern European (in this case, Polish) drivers, who were fully qualified but were unable to read the road sign indicating low bridge ahead.

An "omnibus" is a passenger-carrying vehicle. The term is the latin plural ablative form of the word for "all", implying that the vehicle was intended for the use of all classes of people. When the first motor buses were used on the streets of London, someone wrote to the editor of the Times,

"What is this that roareth thus
Can it be an omnibus?"

I can't find the original, but apparently the original author went into deliberately hilariously bad latin, with references to "omnium bum" and "omniorum borum".

I have often used Stagecoach UK's double-decker buses as a very much cheaper alternative to rail travel (although the journeys took much longer and often involved changing coaches depots with grungy, smoke-ridden cafeterias and waiting rooms which would disgrace many refugee camps). I never had any doubts of the competence of the drivers or the mechanical condition of the vehicles. I would be disturbed if the rumours of cut-price cowboy operators implied in some of the recent stories were true.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Big Phil
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM

Bernard,
25,000 miles per year, I did that in reverse gear when I was trucking.

You seem to have a very dim view of me and my trucking collegues, I would guess that you car drivers have many more accidents per unit than trucks have, still its nice to ignore the facts I suppose..


As for the poor driver of the coach, one thing I am certain of, he did not start his days work planning to take life.. I hope with all my heart that some problem is found that may have caused the horrible accident that took 2 lives and injured many more, my thoughts are with all the relatives of the victims of this catsatrophe.

Why do trucks turn over, the answer is simple, because they weigh so much, and are so high, they ARE [fact of life] much less stable than a low down light motor car. Compare a large 4x4 with a ground hugging sports car, which would be able to go round a hairpin bend the fastest and come out of the other side, sports car every time.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: jonm
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 01:41 PM

Two thoughts:

According to the Highways Agency, the number of FOREIGN lorries involved in accidents on UK dual carriageways and motorways has trebled in the last five years. These are the vehicles which have the most difficulty seeing to change lanes or merge with other traffic, since the driver is on the "wrong" side.

Secondly, the type of coach involved in the recent accident has steering on its rearmost axle, which should lock above manoeuvring speed. If this locking mechanism failed, any minor steering input would cause the exaggerated swerving reported in the press, as anyone who has ever driven a fork lift can attest.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 12:20 PM

Snap, Liz!

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 12:08 PM

Perhaps if they made those seatbelts in a length that went around everyone, more people would be inclined to use them. I've travelled in hi-tech coaches where, even at its fullest stretch, the seat belt would not go around anyone bigger than Victoria Beckham.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 08:14 AM

There's talk of making it obligatory for passengers to use the seat belts. The amazing thing is that most of the time people don't seem to put them on - myself, I feel uncomfortable in a moving vehicle without a seat belt, even aside from the danger aspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Mr Yellow
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 06:16 AM

UK legislation on buses means that the regulations for double deckers is not as severe as those for single deckers - so much so that some ostensibly single deckers have a passenger comparment downstairs to benefit from this. Or it was the case several years back.

When I travel National Distress to Heathrow there are seat belts and I use them but I do wonder if the flying bodies not belted -in would be as devastating as being thrown around myself. I usually select the front seat (when available) which is arguably not the best option but I do get to see things sooner than others. And no travel sickness.

And the driver is usually on the phone regularly with a "not that free hands free" and one time we took the pretty route in to avoid the M25 junction (where else) that was snarled-up from an accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: treewind
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 05:56 AM

In the UK, it's been illegal to use a mobile handset in a moving vehicle for at leat a year now. I see violations of that law all the time, and a lot of motorists, including myself, it must be admitted, get very angry about it. The police don't seem very interested in enforcement either (I know, it's not easy)

Anahata

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 05:47 AM

Using a cell phone while driving is an offence in the UK Ebbie, not that it's stopped all the eedjits, but it's now much less of a contributory factor to road accidents here.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 04:07 AM

Occasionally bus drivers simply forget that they are driving a double decker. Recently my son was behind a double decker that slammed into a low bridge - luckily no-one was hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:41 PM

At least one of those linked reports said the driver evidently had had a heart attack.

Oh dear- it just occurred to me: If there is an upsurge of accidents (although those links don't prove such a thing) is it possible that lorry drivers too have got in the habit of using mobile phones enroute?

In the US they say a very high percentage of accidents relate directly to distraction, which nowadays is frequently a cell phone. A number of states have banned them in moving vehicles, except for hands-free models.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Gurney
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 07:48 PM

Some years ago, there were a number of trucks being BLOWN over in Britain. The accidents happened on exposed moorland roads, and all the trucks had square top edges to their bodies and light loads aboard. Concensus was, rounded roofs were less liable to.

Wouldn't apply to busses, though. They're rounded anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

Hey, Bus Driver
Slow down a little bit
Slow down a little bit
Slow down a little bit...

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM

German EU Driving Licence If you look you will see that it lists the type of vehicles the owner is entitled to drive, in the same way as a UK one does. This is why UK licences are accepted abroad, because they conform to the standard format laid down by Brussels.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:29 PM

An EU car licence will not entitle you to drive an LGV in the UK.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: folk1e
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:28 PM

I don't want to be putting oil on the flames..... but you don't need to pass a stringent tes to drive a HGV in the U.K. you just need any EU liscence! I am not sure about PSV's
The governors would not be operating on a slip road unless you were going over 50MPH!
My daughter used to catch a Stagecoach Bus in Manchester and beet me home (5 miles away)..... now that was scary driving!!

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:08 PM

One a month, woe is me, and how many car accidents are there a month, and how many trucks are there on the road, and how many accidents per mile driven do cars have as compared to lorries?
Pulleeeze don't make me laugh, facts in isolation like that prove nothing except the prejudice of the poster.
How many of those accidents were caused by driver error?
You need to qualify your argument with FACTS.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:01 PM

Thanks, McG of H.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 06:00 PM

Lorries are driven by professionals, who have to pass an extremely stringent driving test, and have to renew it on a regular basis, not like a car licence which lasts till you are 70. Over a certain age [60 I think] drivers must produce a medical certificate in order to renew their licence. Articulated lorries also have about 16 or more wheels with air brakes that work at about 110 PSI, and can stop much quicker than any car, for their weight. Lorries also have to go through a very tough MOT type test EVERY YEAR, and are in most cases far more roadworthy than many cars. Owners and operators must keep a maintenance schedule, which can be inspected by Road Transport inspectors with little or no notice.
Sorry to go on at length about this, but I did own and run my own truck for years, and I can assure you that the Road Transport people kept me on my toes, and no excuse was accepted for failure to comply, the truck was off the road until any defects were rectified. It's a hard life I assure you.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:58 PM

No, Peace. A lorry is what Americans would call a truck.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:57 PM

Putting 'overturned lorry' into Google, I found these, and many more:

Oct 12 2006

Nov 16 2006

Nov 21 2006

Dec 16 2006

That's more than one per month...

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:50 PM

It's probably something to do with more bums on seats for less surface area and our unsuitable road network.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:49 PM

A lorry is an omnibus, right?

(That remark by Winnie was in response to instructions from someone in the war office. Churchill had difficulty with the convolution of the language--the fellow had gone out of his way to make it absolutely grammatically perfect, and in order to avoid ending a sentence with a prepositon had made the meaning of the instruction incomprehensible. Gotta love that man.)

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:45 PM

Nearly every lorry I see on the motorway is being driven far too close to the vehicle in front. Sadly, the tachograph doesn't record that!

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:35 PM

As Winston Churchill, making a point, once famously said... "That is something up with which I will not put..."!! Grammatically correct, but clumsy!

'They' reckon that the attitude of the driver rather than speed itself is the cause of most 'accidents', and I'm inclined to agree. Speed clearly has an effect on the outcome of an accident, but isn't necessarily the reason for it.

Yes, everyone is in a hurry, but it's what they are thinking about that makes the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Overturning vehicles (UK)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:32 PM

Lorries in the UK are speed limited, and as such are unlikely to overturn easily.
Yes schedules are tight, but you can't speed to make up time, due to those same speed limiters.
We have a thing called a tachograph in the cab of HGV's and some buses, and it records the drivers hours and speed, and breaks taken.
Giok