BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 09:01 PM

you mean I accidently got post #300 without planning it? Must be a secret elf deleting other post to allow ME to do it! What else could it be! ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST, conspiracy arrow
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 09:04 PM

clover, there is now a thread devoted to conspiracy theory issues. The subject of this thread appears above.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST,clover
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 09:23 PM

The idea is to get it all out in the open and let people decide for themselves. You Bill, and a few others, are trying to suppress these discussions. That's not the way to find the truth, no matter how badly you might wish it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST,clover
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 09:27 PM

I have seen the thread you mentioned conspiracy arrow. It's not a thread for people who want to seriously discuss issues like building 7. It is a thread for people who want to have some fun at others' expense. No thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST, conspiracy arrow
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 09:47 PM

clover, aren't you having fun hijacking this thread? Why don't you start one with a subject that fits?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST,clover
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 09:51 PM

I don't want to start any threads. I would just like it to be safe for others to discuss this subject without being attacked or censored. When that happens, I'm out of here.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Peace
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:23 PM

GUEST clover. I started the thread so that you would have a place to go discuss conspiracy. I happen to be one of few people here who agrees with you that much of what we've been told about 9-11 is not accurate. I di NOT start that thread so that you'd be ridiculed. When people begin that, I will start some fireworks back at them. But please understand, we are in a vast minority here. Yes, people are going to laugh. Hell, I believe that ETs exist, and I take some ridicule for that. But you have to know that when we say stuff like that, people are going to make fun of our remarks. It happens. And what can ya do? Hell, don't give a rat's ass. It works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST,clover
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:35 PM

I understand that Peace. But I don't think you can really get anything other than the kind of joking around you got on that thread when you put the word 'conspiracy' in the title. Someone else has started a thread called, 'BS: WTC collapse predicted by newscasters', that I think is pretty aptly named. Seems like that thread would have a better potential to contain serious discussion than the one you started.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST,clover
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:38 PM

If the new thread on the subject of the newscasters doesn't get closed, renamed, or deleted, I will go my merry way and leave the discussion to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Peace
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 11:43 PM

I don't see anything wrong with calling a spade a shovel. I think there has been and continues to be conspiracy to do with a coverup about 9-11. Therefore, I think the title of the thread is the absolutely correct place to have what the thread will be about. Some of the people who have posted there did so to ridicule. Others to remark. Others to post. We cna add links to that thread and turn it into a thread about conspiracies. However, that thread won't become that if we keep posting here on THIS thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 01:10 PM

I wondered what happened to 'Clover'...I just posted answers to him on that other thread, but he refuses to read it. Oh, well.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST,clover
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 01:55 PM

It's not my discussion, Bill. As I said before, I was mostly interested in seeing that the threads in question were not renamed, closed, or deleted. That's my whole reason for posting in this thread. I'll leave you and the others who want to discuss this issue to have at it in the other thread.


I see that the thread started specifically about building 7 last night has been closed, but Peace's thread is still there and the link to the video is still intact. Hopefully, Peace's thread will not be interfered with.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 05:22 PM

No I don't, you do. I simply read the implemented standards of this site and understand the requirements.

I simply try to record when and where these actions are imposed.

You post to speculate on the possible reasons for why a thread is closed, retitled or silently deleted - as you have here.

You do choose to understand that the words of the FAQ say that the management will reserve the right to impose these actions - but not to understand that there are no words that say say these actions will be unrecorded?

If these actions had to be recorded - perhaps there would be less of them and no need for you or any of us to speculate on the possible reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 05:25 PM

Not very nice Mudcat has been closed by someone for some reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 05:30 PM

I am glad it was. Troll threads do no one any good.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 05:31 PM

"You post to speculate on the possible reasons for why a thread is closed, retitled or silently deleted - as you have here."

I did not.

"You do choose to understand that the words of the FAQ say that the management will reserve the right to impose these actions - but not to understand that there are no words that say say these actions will be unrecorded? "

So? There is no point.

"If these actions had to be recorded - perhaps there would be less of them and no need for you or any of us to speculate on the possible reasons. "

No I did not, and there would not.

You made your suggestion, they chose not to act upon it. The end.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 12:42 AM

I deleted the "Not very nice Mudcat" because it was just an attack thread.

I can't understand why somebody took it upon himself/herself to close ALL the World Trade Center threads. Before I went on vacation last week, I agreed with a suggestion to combine three such threads -maybe one of the volunteers misunderstood and thought the conspiracy threads were supposed to ALL be closed. I'm sorry - that wasn't supposed ot happen. I can see no reason for stopping that discussion.

I saw the complaints when I came home last night, I was too tired to follow up on the closures. I've reopened the main thread now, and consolidated it with others.

And as for those who complain about my use of the term "conspiracy theory lunatics" - I think you take yourselves far too seriously. Maybe you should lighten up a bit. I said it in fun.

-Joe Offer-

Oh, and a big, hearty welcome to new Mudcatter GUEST,clover, posting on the IP previously used by CarolC and Jack the Sailor. Thank you so much for your wonderfully contentious posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 01:07 AM

Nice of you to out me here in the open forum, Joe.

Now, if you had been willing to out the anonymous poster who made the credible threat of material and possibly physical harm against me and JtS a few months ago, I would not be posting anonymously now.

But you didn't do that, did you Joe. Instead, you deleted the thread in which the attack took place, and you also deleted the thread in the help forum in which another member complained about the threat made against me and JtS.

Why did you delete the thread in the help forum, Joe? And why didn't you out that person in the open forum as you have outed both JtS and me in the open forum?

Who are you protecting, Joe?


And don't try to pretend that the threats were not serious and credible ones. Other people saw the threat, and I have it saved in my computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 01:11 AM

And by the way... another seriously stupid move on your part. I wasn't going to post any more now that the thread was opened back up. But you just couldn't leave it alone, so I guess we're going to have to have it out here in the open forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 03:29 AM

Sorry, Carol. While you were gone, we cracked down on people who post combatively, and on people who don't use consistent user names. If you wish to post here, you will have to comply.

Several Mudcatters who posted incognito to cause trouble have been "outed."

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 03:33 AM

So who made that threat against me and JtS, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 03:36 AM

Which, by the way, he/she may very well have carried out, because that fledgling business he/she threatened to destroy hasn't gotten a single gig since he/she made that threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:15 AM

Sorry, Carol. While you were gone, we cracked down on people who post combatively, and on people who don't use consistent user names. If you wish to post here, you will have to comply..

What is meant by the word 'we' is that the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has decided on yet another restriction in his vain attempt to continue to chase and control shadows. Whatever the effect this will have on our forum and even though these shadows are best ignored and do far less harm than all the clumsy and counter-productive methods imposed to deal with them.

But this restriction does not apply if you are one of the favoured ones, who feel themselves qualified to impose their judgement on the rest of us - who are now expected to be known and stand by our words and actions with a consistent user name.

If you are favoured - you can not only post anonymously but also anonymously and silently delete the posts of others.

Perhaps it would be judged to be fair if the same expectations and accountabilty were seen to be expected from all posters and when the word 'we' once again would refer to us all?

For displays of power without responsibilty are not generally thought to be acceptable - as such things tend to lead to the abuse of that power. And even if they do not - it is difficult to defend from such accusations.

If there is nothing to hide - what is the point of our moderators acting like and giving the impression that there is?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:31 AM

"You post to speculate on the possible reasons for why a thread is closed, retitled or silently deleted - as you have here."
The Shambles

I did not.
Ron Olesko

Oh yes he did...........Didn't he children?

That is why threads like that are closed. Perhaps this one will finally be closed as well.
Ron Olesko

Despite Ron's speculation - we now find out - (in this thread and because this one is not closed or deleted) - that the reason that thread was closed was because some anonymous moderator is judged to have gotten it wrong - whilst the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team was away from his post.

But as these anonymous ones are not expected to account for their actions - this abuse of their power has happened many times before.

Sadly is never addressed and corrected and so it will happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:49 AM

I deleted the "Not very nice Mudcat" because it was just an attack thread.

Before this rather drastc action - it was only closed and posters could judge for themselves. Now they cannot.

Would a similar thread but titled something like 'Very nice Mudcat' and containing only uncritical praise of the efforts of the current Chief of the Mudcat's team - also be subject to this?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 06:07 AM

It was closed to get it off the front page, and the name was changed to make it difficult to find in a search. (clover)

The most likely interpretation is that the originator of the thread herself used not the default entry in the subject line but changed it to make her point. That's the interpretation Shambles did overlook. That's why I did post my question. But he didn't get it.

But then, this thread now is about conspiracy theories and paranoia, and so that contribution fits well the new theme.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 07:07 AM

It's all over the web now, the BBC has reported the collaps 23 minutes before it happened.
23? 23?
Yeah, now it dawns upon me. That is the cosmic number of the Illuminati. That's how they show their footprint to those who can see.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Alba
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 08:23 AM

...and Wolfgang another weird coincidence perhaps is that Jim Carrey's latest Film just came out here in the US last weekend....it is called..."23".
23....again!!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 09:25 AM

That wasn't speculation Shambles. Get it right.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: GUEST, IP drifter
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 10:13 AM

You did speculate, Ron. Read the quote included by the Shambles below. You are capable of some apt analysis of events in the outside world, and I've found myself agreeing with you at times, but your like-it-or-lump-it approach toward the running of Mudcat and your disdain for the concerns of the Shambles do not emanate from an independent thinker.

Wolfgang, even though you like to scamper in to snap at what you consider wounded and easy prey, don't you consider attempting to hijack this thread weak? You certainly won't coherently address the questions put by the Shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 10:47 AM

My point is that I was not "speculating" but responding to Shambles. Yes, if you want to use semantics, then yes - the definition of the word made it was a "speculation" - but what I was referring to was how Shambles was using the word. I am not sitting here thinking about why a thread was closed - life is too short for that.

Yes, it is a "like it or lump it" approach to the way Mudcat is run because that is reality. This is not OUR site, no matter how much it has been sugarcoated. The reality is that human beings own and run this site, and it is not a public forum in the true sense of the word. Freedom of speech is not at issue here.

It bothers me to see people wasting their time fighting a dead issue when all around them our freedom of speech IS being attacked. Take a look at the FCC and what they have done to television and radio. Look at newspaper ownership and see how much it has been compromised. Those are the battlegrounds, not some tiny website where the control is beyond our reach.

I do not have "disdain" for Shambles thoughts as an independent thinker. Yet, you seem to have disdain for my thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 06:23 PM

The most likely interpretation is that the originator of the thread herself used not the default entry in the subject line but changed it to make her point.

Yet more speculation..........

But in the absence of information - all that remains is the sort of speculation which is at the very heart of all conspiracy theories and paranoia. Most of which start out as simple cock-ups which a more open initial reponse with little more honesty could largely prevent and which the opposite approach only fuels.

There may be times when secrecy, pretence and to cover up is the right approach but honesty is usually the best policy and one which avoids too many resulting complications.

If posters are now expected to be more honest, perhaps - rather than issuing threats and imposing yet more restrictions - a more honest and respectful approach can be tried?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 06:37 PM

Subject: RE: Thread about the forum: Why not?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05-Mar-07 - 04:42 AM

If you have a complaint, question, suggestion, or concern, contact me directly. There is a general consensus that the "threads about the forum" were not helpful, and many of the issues raised were of a nature that we could not answer them publicly.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Is there really such a 'general consensus' and how is it determined?

And if there were - and posters views are thought (by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team to matter) - how does this square with the new 'like it or lump it' approach to posters on our forum?

If the views and wishes of poster are thought to be important - perhaps a more formal method of obtaining these views is required?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 06:55 PM

What has happened to freedom of speech? has been closed for reasons and by persons unknown.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 07:04 PM

Camilla's plan B has been closed for reasons and by persons unknown.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 07:09 PM

IMO, it fuckin' well shoulda been.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 07:54 PM

Well, Roger...it's sure good of you to keep us up to date on these things.....and it's good for a fellow to have a hobby- keeps him off the streets and out of low dives.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 07:56 PM

"and it's good for a fellow to have a hobby- keeps him off the streets and out of low dives."

That never did work for me, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 08:15 PM

Well yeah Bruce, but like me, I think your hobby was low dives.....

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 08:16 PM

LOL, you filthy-minded bugger. That must be what I've always liked about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:14 AM

IMO, it fuckin' well shoulda been.

Not sure if either your or my opinion is really thought important by those who impose such action but why should any thread be closed?

For there is no accounting for taste - is there?

There are many things on our forum that are not to my taste but I accept (as some posters start them and others eagerly contribute to them) that they are to the taste of some.

Why - if we can so easily ignore such threads and posts - should we wish to deny others what is to their taste?

For if we do - what will be left on the table will be a very bland meal indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:39 AM

Shambles,

do you only play dumb or do you still not understand?

Of course I cannot know what has happened but the whole point of my post was to correct the impression you gave in your 03 Mar 07 - 06:39 AM post. You have implied that there was a title change. All I did was to point out that there is another interpretation.

You have wrongly presented an interpretation as a fact.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:21 AM

You have wrongly presented an interpretation as a fact.

No

What I posted was that in addition to the fact that the thread had been closed for reasons and by persons unknown - that it appeared that it also had been given a new title.

For our anonymous 'moderators' to impose such action would not now come as a surprise. As for them to judge, close, delete or re title threads and posts and provide no explanation, is sadly now quite normal on our forum.

Would you agree that the only means of preventing such assumptions from being made (when it might not be the case and as you point out, there may be another explanation) is for all such editing action to be recorded in editing comments.

So when posters do not see an editing comment - they will then know for sure to look for another explanation.

Whatever the explanation may prove to be - the only fact we have to go on is that the title of the only post in that thread is different to the thread's title.

As I have said - I would rather posters were not left only to speculate if imposed actions had taken place and what the reasons for this may have been. I would rather that they were informed and could then openly discuss the reasons provided reasons with an informed view.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:35 AM

Try to get this through the sludge surrounding your brain.

It doesn't matter a whit what I think or what you think. Max has set the thing up and with Joe and Pene made changes as he desired. He sometimes asks for comments and sometimes makes some of his own.   Not since the very earliest of days has it been a free-form/ain't no rules/ type of place. The world got in the way and now some things are routinely done that didn't used to be. Notice too that lately there have been very few problems or acrimonius posts and most of the folks seem pretty happy.

Forget your reliable old Max quote......YOU have no say in it and no one is going to bother adding editorial comments for you to pick through and discuss......because there is no discussion. Got a gripe? Write to Joe or Max directly and you have seen that the occasional mistake has been corrected without your petty blathering.

In short Roger.....Have a Coke and a smile and shut the fuck up!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:22 AM

Would you agree that the only means of preventing such assumptions from being made (when it might not be the case and as you point out, there may be another explanation) is for all such editing action to be recorded in editing comments.

No.

See, Shambles, the editing action has been recorded in these words: This thread has been deleted.

You read this and then you start to speculate about an action that has not been recorded.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 11:47 AM

"For there is no accounting for taste - is there?"

So, would you then be in favoUr of threads lauding nazis, ridiculing people who are deaf or blind because they are deaf or blind, talking about how much one admires mass murderers? Or how funny it is that a guy was castrated or that a woman who'd just had a hysterectomy is just another piece of human detrius who should be laughed at? Is that the shit you want to defend? You are correct: there IS no accounting for taste, but be sure that there IS an accounting.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 04:09 PM

So, would you then be in favoUr of threads lauding nazis, ridiculing people who are deaf or blind because they are deaf or blind, talking about how much one admires mass murderers?

Not being in favour of threads discussing such things or judging them not to be to one's taste - will not prevent such things and worse from happening.

The world is what it is - not talking about it, just making judgements and pretending that it is something else will not make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 04:13 PM

BUT, there then is the rub, Shambles. THIS little corner of the world doesn't have to be like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 05:28 PM

THIS little corner of the world doesn't have to be like that.

You mean because posters are now denied their choice to see their words remain as posted?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts (3)
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 06:19 PM

Sorry, Shambles. I don't wish to be a piece of your soapbox. I have and continue to agree with some of what you say, but I am not a guy who's about to have his words twisted so you can use them for whatever purposes you have in mind.