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Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'

DigiTrad:
LITTLE RED CABOOSE BEHIND THE TRAIN
THE LITTLE LOG CABIN BY THE STREAM


Related threads:
Lyr Add: Weathered Old Caboose behind the Train (4)
Lyr Req: Little Red Caboose (23)
Help: Sacred? - Cabin on the Hill (21)
Lyr Add: Little Log Cabin by the Sea (Carter Fam (4)
Lyr Req: Little Red Caboose Behind the Train (24)


GUEST,kerry johnson 07 Jan 07 - 02:06 AM
Joe Offer 07 Jan 07 - 02:22 AM
GUEST,kerry johnson 07 Jan 07 - 02:46 AM
KT 07 Jan 07 - 03:02 AM
Joe Offer 07 Jan 07 - 03:47 AM
Joe Offer 07 Jan 07 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,kerry 07 Jan 07 - 06:36 PM
Peace 07 Jan 07 - 07:20 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jan 07 - 10:40 PM
GUEST,kerry 08 Jan 07 - 01:05 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Jan 07 - 03:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Feb 07 - 09:57 PM
Joe Offer 11 Feb 07 - 10:17 PM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Feb 07 - 10:25 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Feb 07 - 01:57 PM
Cool Beans 12 Feb 07 - 03:31 PM
GUEST,kerry 15 Mar 07 - 12:11 AM
GUEST,kerry 15 Mar 07 - 12:24 AM
GUEST,kerry 15 Mar 07 - 12:33 AM
GUEST,Lynda lewis 15 Mar 07 - 09:44 AM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 07 - 03:17 AM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 07 - 04:02 AM
Joe Offer 21 Mar 07 - 03:51 AM
GUEST,Chuck K 12 Aug 10 - 11:37 AM
GUEST,Deke C. Moffitt 27 Aug 10 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,Deke C. Moffitt 27 Aug 10 - 09:40 AM
beeliner 28 Aug 10 - 03:28 AM
GUEST,Ken R 13 Jan 11 - 07:09 AM
Bat Goddess 13 Jan 11 - 11:22 PM
GUEST,Dani 14 Jan 11 - 10:53 PM
GUEST,daryl 02 Aug 12 - 05:44 PM
Bill D 02 Aug 12 - 07:48 PM
GUEST 04 Sep 17 - 12:39 AM
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Subject: Origins: copyrights of song 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,kerry johnson
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 02:06 AM

Hello everyone, I would REALLY appreciate any help. Does anyone know if the these lyrics to "The Little Red Caboose Behind the Train" song is copyrighted ?

Little Red Caboose
Little Red Caboose
Little Red Caboose behind the train train train
Smokestacks on his back back back back
running down the track track track
little red caboose behind the train.

I have been looking for weeks ! Many thanks in advance.

Kerry Johnson


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyrights of song 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 02:22 AM

Hi, Kerry - this song has NO connection to most of the other "Little Red Caboose Behind the Train" songs listed in the crosslinks above - but yours is the one I grew up with in 1950's Detroit. The way I sang it was
    Little red caboose
       Chug chug chug
    Little red caboose
       Chug chug chug
    Little red caboose behind the train train train.
    Goin' down the track
       Track track track
    Smokestack in the back
       Back back back
    Little red caboose behind the train.
Why the caboose chugged and why it had a smokestack in back, I may never know. Wait - there is some information in this thread (click). I see that Dave Oesterreich sang it when he was a kid, so it must be really old.
"Our" version is not listed in Norm Cohen's Long Steel Rail, the Bible of railroad songs, but I think we can come up with some pretty good information over the next few days.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyrights of song 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,kerry johnson
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 02:46 AM

HEy Joe, THANK YOU for any help- This has been really a long road to find information about this song. I found out through this website that the Kookabura was copyrighted, seems like people really know there stuff here!
Oh I would really appreacite that! We want to do a childrens train animation to this tune, and I am really hoping its not copyrighted!
I like your lyics better :)

again thanks!!!

Kerry


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyrights of song 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: KT
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 03:02 AM

We saing it in NEW York, too, way back when .....same version as Joe's.....every time we saw a train!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyrights of song 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 03:47 AM

There are lots of train and transportation preschool songs here (click).

This page (click) has an interesting variation:

Little Red Caboose

Sing in normal voice:
Little red caboose,
Chug, chug, chug
Little red caboose,
Chug, chug, chug
Little red caboose
Behind the train, train, train, train
Coming around the track, track, track, track
Smokestack on its back, back, back, back
Little red caboose
Behind the train, choo! Choo

Sing in deep voice:
Great big caboose,
Chug, chug, chug
Great big caboose,
Chug, chug, chug
Great big caboose
Behind the train, train, train, train
Coming around the track, track, track, track
Smokestack on its back, back, back, back
Great big caboose
Behind the train, choo! Choo!

Sing in high-pitched voice:
Teeny tiny caboose,
 Chug, chug, chug
Teeny tiny caboose,
Chug, chug, chug
Teeny tiny caboose
Behind the train, train, train, train
Coming around the track, track, track, track
Smokestack on its back, back, back, back
Teeny tiny caboose
Behind the train, choo! Choo!


This Google Search (click) may help you find more information, but this is a song that has been posted countless times on the Internet. At the Harry Fox Agency the only copyright I can find is the Sweet Honey in the Rock/Bernice Reagon Johnson arrangement (copyright covers just the arrangement). There is one Silver Burdett school songbook from 1956 that has a song with that title, but I don't have that book - I've contacted a Mudcatter who does have it, but he's probably wise enough to be asleep right now...
My hunch is that this song is more recent than 1923, the cutoff date for U.S. copyrights; but it's so common that it will be very difficult for anyone to prove a copyright claim.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 06:15 PM

refresh - still haven't found a definitive source.


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,kerry
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 06:36 PM

i have found so many similiar versions of this song by various artists with the latest recording I have found sung by lori beckner, the earliest one to date is a relation to Deke Moffit. I know the music composistion dates back to an old folk song named something like "this little old cabin" I have seen credits range from public domain, traditional, or the recodring artist taken credit.


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 07:20 PM

The Little Red Caboose (Behind the Train) [Me II-T10] - Miller, Bob

Miller, Bob. Cohen, Norm (ed.) / Long Steel Rail. The Railroad in American Folksong, Univ. of Illinois, Bk (1981), p261 [1930/01/30]
Little Red Caboose Behind the Train

Pd - Little Old Log Cabin in the Lane
Pickards. Cohen, Norm (ed.) / Long Steel Rail. The Railroad in American Folksong, Univ. of Illinois, Bk (1981), p583 [1929/01/31]
Underwood, Marion; and Sam Harris. Cohen, Norm (ed.) / Long Steel Rail. The Railroad in American Folksong, Univ. of Illinois, Bk (1981), p584 [1927/08/01]
Warmack, Paul; & his Gully Jumpers. Cohen, Norm (ed.) / Long Steel Rail. The Railroad in American Folksong, Univ. of Illinois, Bk (1981), p586 [1928/10/01]


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 10:40 PM

I hope to have the Silver Burdett book back in a few days. Loaned out, but on its way back from BC. If a song is 'by permission,' it was under copyright when they printed it.

(Not the 'Behind the train' songs by Ferguson or Lair in "Long Steel Rail."


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,kerry
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 01:05 AM

thankyou very much- BTW what is the Silver Burdett book ? I have a list of 7 other songs i need to find out about, any suggstions the best way to look for copyrights? When i looked up Little Red Caboose on ASCAP there where at least 10 versions made, and thas just the ones listed there.


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 03:07 PM

The Silver Burdett books are grade school music books. There are many; a fairly extensive list, with indexes to songs in each, in Permathread thread 69027: Silver Burdett

Follett school songbooks Permathread, 70064: Follett song books

General list, school songbooks other than Silver Burdett, thread 69315: School songbook

These old school songbooks contain thousands of songs with partial scores, and information on translations, etc.
If you can find them, they are mostly cheap, but many used book stores often throw them away because there is little profit to be made.


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 09:57 PM

Lyr. Add: LITTLE RED CABOOSE
Words and music by Deke Moffitt

Spoken:
Woo - woo! Ch - ch- ch, Woo - woo! Ch - ch- ch,

1.
Little Red Caboose, chug, chug, chug,
Little Red Caboose, chug, chug, chug,
Little Red Caboose behind the train, train, train, train.
Smokestack on its back, back, back, back
Coming down the track, track, track, track,
Little Red Caboose behind the train.-
2.
Little Red Caboose, chug, chug, chug,
Little Red Caboose, chug, chug, chug,
Little Red caboose behind the train, train, train, train.
Coming round the bend, bend, bend, bend,
Hanging on the end, end, end, end,
Little Red Caboose behind the train.-

"Sometimes the train comprised of children will be "coming down the track." Starting softly, as the train is far away, the song is sung three times and made to sound as if the train is coming nearer and nearer. Or the train may be "going down the track," and the singing gets softer and softer. It's fun to pause at the end of the third repeat and sing "Woo-woo" as the "engineer" pulls the lever."

Copyright 1941 by Fillmore Bros. Co. Sole selling agent, George Paxton, Inc.

Page 77, "Music for Living- Music Through the Day," James L. Mursell et al., Silver Burdett Company, 1956.

A scan has been sent to Joe Offer for midi preparation.


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 10:17 PM

Kerry, give us your list. We have a good time researching stuff like that.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 10:25 AM

About the smokestack on its back - a caboose was a little house for the crew to live in as the train made its way cross country. It had beds and a stove. The smokestack (a small one) would have been for the stove.

Sometimes I dream of setting up a ring of cabooses in the woods, connecting the plumbing, and hiding out with all my friends, each family to its own caboose. We would bring our instruments, of course.

(Sorry I can't help with the origin of the song.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:57 PM

ASCAP indicates that the "Little Red Caboose" by Deke Moffitt was performed by "Airlines." Many songs are on their ASCAP list, but I can't find them. An 'umbrella' group?

LITTLE RED CABOOSE
ASCAP No. 420054800
Administrators are:
Fillmore Music House
%Carl Fischer LLC
65Bleeker Street
New York, NY, 10012
Tel. (212) 777-0900


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Cool Beans
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:31 PM

This song was a staple of the 1950s radio show "No
School Today" a/k/a "Big Jon and Sparkie." The show has been appearing a lot lately on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,kerry
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:11 AM

Hello,
I am looking for Joe Offer. Joe are you there :) I am still trying to find out about little red caboose and I found a record dating back to 1928 called Nashville, 1928. I got lost in this forum, I stumblled upon it and signed in as a guest and coudnt find my way back and dont know if I will again. I know I know, that probably makes me look dingy, but I guess I dont know how to use this site. :(

Kerry, give us your list. We have a good time researching stuff like that.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,kerry
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:24 AM

here is the link to the cd I found regarding little red caboose...can you tell me does that qulaify it to be in Public Domain since its before 1929? is that the PD cut off date?

http://song.songsearch.com/search/detail/dom/cd/71429880372/nashville%201928%20_%20various/nashville%201928%20_%20various/


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,kerry
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:33 AM

Ok cut off date for PD is 1923 :(


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,Lynda lewis
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:44 AM

I'm looking for all stanza from this song. My grandson is a huge fan of this song and I can't remember all the words. any help?


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 03:17 AM

Hi, Lynda - I think we have a pretty good collection of verses above. We haven't found any others in printed sources.
This would be an easy song to make up verses for - one verse for every kind of train car you can imagine, that should be enough to put the kids to sleep at naptime.

Kerry - if you need to get hold of me with your list of songs to check out, I'm joe@mudcat.org. Your song.songsearch.com link led me to some interesting stuff. The 1928 song you found is by Paul Warmack & His Gully Jumpers, so it's this song that we have in our database, not the one you're looking for. The information Q supplied Silver Burdett school songbook is most likely correct:
    Copyright 1941 by Fillmore Bros. Co. Sole selling agent, George Paxton, Inc.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: Lyr Add: LITTLE RED CABOOSE (Henry Thomas)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 04:02 AM

But there's one more red caboose song, recorded by Henry Thomas, sometime between 1927 and 1929.

Here's my by-ear transcription from the Yazoo CD, The Story That the Crow Told Me (Volume 2)

The Little Red Caboose
(recorded by Henry Thomas, 1927-29)

Well, the little red caboose, little red caboose,
Comin' behind the train.
Little red caboose, little red caboose,
Comin' behind the train.

Oh, get your ticket and get on board,
Comin' behind the train.
Oh, get your ticket and get on board,
Comin' behind the train.

Well, I look down the road about forty miles,
Comin' behind the train.
Yes, I look down the road about forty miles
Comin' behind the train.

Well, the little red caboose, little red caboose,
Comin' behind the train.
Little red caboose, little red caboose,
Comin' behind the train.

Yes, she's blowin' the whistle, blowin' loud and strong
Comin' behind the train.
She's blowin' the whistle, blowin' loud and strong
Comin' behind the train.

The little red caboose, little red caboose,
Comin' behind the train.
Little red caboose, little red caboose,
Comin' behind the train.


The little red caboose, little red caboose,
Comin' behind the train.
Little red caboose, little red caboose,
Comin' behind the train.


Now, this one is very close to the kids' song we all know. I'll betcha the kid's song was derived from it. Still the kids' song is different enough that's I'd think the 1941 copyright holds. I wish they'd cut copyrights to 50 years or something reasonable. Instead, Sonny Bono and his cronies sold public domain up the river in the U.S. I'm glad the UK didn't go along with that.
-Joe-


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Subject: Lyr Add: LITTLE RED CABOOSE (Deke Moffitt)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 03:51 AM

I think this verifies Q's findings that the song was written by Deke Moffitt, although the copyright date I have is 1940.

Little Red Caboose
(Deke Moffitt)
Version 1

Little Red Caboose, Little Red Caboose,
Little Red Caboose behind the train,
Smokestack on its back, Coming down the track,
Little Red Caboose behind the train.-

Little Red Caboose, Little Red Caboose,
Little Red Caboose behind the train,
Coming round the bend, Hanging on the end,
Little Red Caboose behind the train.-

Click to play (1)





Little Red Caboose
(Deke Moffitt - adapted)
Version 2

Little Red Caboose, chug, chug, chug,
Little Red Caboose, chug, chug, chug,
Little Red Caboose behind the train, train, train, train.
Smokestack on its back, back, back, back
Coming down the track, track, track, track,
Little Red Caboose behind the train, chug, chug.-

Little Red Caboose, chug, chug, chug,
Little Red Caboose, chug, chug, chug,
Little Red caboose behind the train, train, train, train.
Coming round the bend, bend, bend, bend,
Hanging on the end, end, end, end,
Little Red Caboose behind the train, chug, chug.-

Click to play (2)


Both versions ©1940, Carl Fisher, Inc.
from Wee Sing Fun 'n' Folk, by Pamela Conn Beall and Susan Hagen Nipp, 1989
So, the bottom line is that the song Kerry wants is the one by Deke Moffitt. It can be licensed for recording at harryfox.com - click on the yellow "Songfile" link and follow the instructions. When you get to the search utility, search for Deke Moffitt and it will come right up. Last time I got licenses there, it cost me 8 cents per song per CD, plus a reasonable processing fee. This was for lots of 500 or 1000 - bigger quantities are handled differently.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,Chuck K
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 11:37 AM

Ran across this page from doing a google search of little red caboose. Oh the memories...I had this song (Deke Moffit version I think) and many other kids songs on old 78rpm when I was a kid. They all started out as my brothers I believe, and he was 11 years older than me. I wish I could find some info on another one of those songs I remember. Went something like this~~~ "One little, two little, three little kittens are we, I'm black, I'm brown, I'm gray"....We are as happy as we can be, oh boy, hurrah, hurray!"   In my google searches all I seem to find are the 3 bad kittens that soiled there mittens....lol...can anyone here help with who may have recorded the song I am thinking of and where I might find it to download? does anyone even remember such a song?


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,Deke C. Moffitt
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 09:23 AM

Happy to see that so many people were touched by my father's composition "Little Red Caboose." There were additional lyrics to the song which I've not seen posted. It is still under copyright as our family receives royalties once in a while...though they be very small.

My father toured around the country with a "funny band" called the "Caboosers." It was a small group of very talented musicians and their routines were often times loose and extemporaneous.


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,Deke C. Moffitt
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 09:40 AM

Sorry, I gave a wrong email address for contacting me. The correct address is dcmoffitt@gmail.com.


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: beeliner
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 03:28 AM

But there's one more red caboose song, recorded by Henry Thomas, sometime between 1927 and 1929.

Thomas' version was recorded in Chicago on October 5, 1927, his second of five known recording sessions, all of which produced, unfortunately, only 23 known sides. Fortunate that they were produced, unfortunate that there were not more.

The later version by Moffitt was obviously a derivative. One need only compare.


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,Ken R
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 07:09 AM

Responding to Guest Chuck K.
I do remember your "Three little kittens are we" song. In the 1950s my Aunt, a pre-school teacher in Victoria, Australia, used a recording of the song, presumably a 78, as a soundtrack for a puppet performance. It is etched deeply in my memory, but I have no specific information about it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 13 Jan 11 - 11:22 PM

I knew the "little red caboose / chug chug chug" in Milwaukee in the '50s.

Linn


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Cabo
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 14 Jan 11 - 10:53 PM

The Henry Thomas version is the one I know, learned from Sweet Honey in the Rock. They sing, "riding behind the train" I think.

Dani


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST,daryl
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 05:44 PM

I know it was early 60's. I had it in record form. 33rpm maybe on an album with other songs.


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 07:48 PM

As Cool Beans posted several years ago, the short, simple version was on "Big Jon & Sparkie" in the 50s.. I was almost too old for the program, but my younger brother had it on, and "chug, chug, chug" was burned into my brain cells.


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Subject: RE: Origins: copyright of kidsong 'LittleRed Caboose'
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 12:39 AM

Obviously the Deke Moffitt version is derivative, yes - but the Henry Thomas version does not have the bridge, or the "chug chugs" or the "toot toot" so I'm guessing those may have been Moffitt's contributions, as well as a modification of the melody. Still, it is not accurate to call the song "Moffitt's composition". If the 1928 version was not composed by Henry Thomas, then it is an old traditional folk song of unknown origin. The Henry Thomas version is the earliest version I could find a recording of, although there are many versions listed in the Roud Folk Song index going back as far as 1892, though most with notably different lyrics and structure. The refrain 'Little red caboose comin' behind the train' appears to be common to all, however.


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