Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York

Subject: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Nick
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 08:03 AM

There is a pub in York (UK) which has recently reopened and is keen to promote both live music but particularly FOLK music as the landlady is a pipe player and clog dancer amongst other things.

They are in the process of contacting various people in the York area but I suggested they might also ask for some advice here and hopefully they will contribute to this thread and tell you more about their plans.

The pub currently has practically no custom and is very much a blank canvas at the moment - which is a nice place to be.

They are keen to attract session musicians for (probably a monday night) and again have already made contacts in that direction. I did suggest though that trying to attract singers to what is primarily an instrumental session might not work wonderfully as I reckon they are not quite mutually exclusive but different beasts. Others views would be welcome I am sure.

One idea I did suggest was the idea of Saturday - I don't think there is anything on a Saturday within 30 + miles. Again thoughts welcome

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 08:13 AM

Weekends are good in the Winter but you might lose some of your crowd when the festival season starts.

It sounds like a great place though - folk-friendly landlords are as rare as hen's teeth, especially if one of them is a performer as well. Good luck with it.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: the fence
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 08:16 AM

Any idea on the name of the pub and area of york it is in?

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: breezy
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 08:41 AM

saturdays would be good if there is little else on locally and Jo Public as a general rule may not be festval goers, thats for singers and musos.

Have a solid core of good performers to attract Jo Public and have some kind of format with a climax to the evening

Good luck

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: BanjoRay
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 10:23 AM

Don't go for Sunday or Tuesday, as there are already excellent sessions at the Golden Ball and the Maltings on those nights in York.
Ray

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: GUEST,Grazzer
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 11:10 AM

Any clues as to where this pub is located? What sort of venue is it to be? Will it be an endless procession of mediocre singer/songwriters, with songs of interminable length, unfathomable content, and the necessary overdose of self confidence, or will it have the intent of attracting a paying audience who might well want entertaining with some quality acts?

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 11:38 AM

Nick_ - I've already PM-ed you with my initial thoughts.
This could be a winner, if handled right.

That end of Yorkshire desperately needs a quality-singer-friendly session night at a weekend (Friday or Saturday), in a suitably decent venue (ie at least reasonable acoustics and sufficiently away from a smoky noisy bar area).
Guest, Grazzer - there are already venues catering for the niche-markets of the "concert" audiences, the musician-sessioneers and the acoustic-singer-songwriter brigade.
Me, I would travel from the other end of the county for a good sing with like-minded folk in convivial surroundings - and I do, if there's the right supportive atmosphere..
And I'm sure there's many fellow Catters who feel the same.

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: stallion
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 12:02 PM

Nick & Dave
I like singer friendly sessions and am intrigued as to know which pub it is. Sessions tend to be "wallpaper" and continue in spite of the racket from the punters who are just in for the drink. As you both know a rousing chorus can drown that out (eg Tap & Spile Fridays) I personally would welcome more singing but my other half probably wouldn't let me go that often!
Pete

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: stallion
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 12:10 PM

oops just read Grazzer, my, I do share your views on mediocrity but only insofar as I am paying for it. If they are people joining in a session then they are to be applauded and welcomed, the music has to be inclusive, self entertainment. I once travelled eighty miles to a regular club singers night to see ten guitars stacked against a wall and not another instrument in sight, I left before crossing the threshold, I might have missed a new Paul Simon but probably not, I am not such a good listener I am a "Joinerinner", everyone should be "Joinerinners"!
Peter

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Bloke in the Corner
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 12:20 PM

WHAT'S THE NAME OF THE PUB AND WHERE IS IT? I'm sure there is call for a session-friendly pub in York, and you'll find dozy buggers like me will travel the 40 miles each way to support it at the start. There are plenty of players in that area, too. As far as singers vs instrumentalists goes, with any luck you can achieve a mixed session - my local one in the Six Bells in Barrow on Humber is a good example of just such a session - though some are just too far up themselves to play where someone might sing, and vice versa. So blow them, welcome the folkies, DON'T ALLOW A CLIQUE OF THE FOLK MAFIA TO TAKE IT OVER AND 'ORGANISE' IT (The kiss of death!) and set up a friendly, anarchic session where all are welcome. Good luck, I'll certainly be there sometimes, and I know others who will as well.

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 12:51 PM

Does it serve real ale at a reasonable price? :0)

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: IWTATBM
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 01:37 PM

20 questions.
1. Is the pub on Micklegate?

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Nick
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 03:28 PM

The pub is the Reindeer on Penleys Grove Street.

This is not something I am directly involved in - hopefully Lorna and her partner who run the pub will post here and tell you a lot more about their plans. I emailed her a bit earlier and let her know of the thread.

I originally went down to see them because a friend of ours had seen a message outside the pub asking for Folk musicians to contact them as they were interested in doing something. It just seems a good idea to support something new as there are not vast numbers of folk friendly pubs in the world. As the pub currently has very few customers it is a great time to get involved and put forward some thoughts that hopefully will bear fruit in the future.

The pub is close to Ripon and St Johns College and is not that far out of the centre of York and is a decent sized pub. Their intention is to turn the juke box off when the music is on :)! It has a little stage area and they also intend to put some bands (probably local student bands etc) on as well as the folky side of things.

As I said, hopefully, Lorna will tell you much more. If anyone wants to contact her directly to offer advice or services pop into the pub if you are local or PM me and I will let you have her email address - I am wary of posting it here directly otherwise I would put it here - as she is happy for it to be passed on to interested parties.

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Carol
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 06:13 AM

Hi
30 miles from me but would try it as a singer who's quite happy to be in a mixed session but not a musicians only session
Just wondering what the parking was like near the pub?
Shame it wasn't south of York!!

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Nick
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 06:40 AM

There is plenty of parking about but - since York instigated their 'charge everyone for parking within any distance of the town centre' policy - the most you can get in the immediate vicinity of the pub is 60 mins or pay for longer. There are plenty of places to park close to the pub as long as you are prepared to pay the (?)£2.10 evening charge. Alternatively walk from further away!

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: GUEST,GrahamP
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 08:52 AM

"trying to attract singers to what is primarily an instrumental session might not work wonderfully as I reckon they are not quite mutually exclusive but different beasts"

- quite agree - oil and water, Nic, oil and water! I can already see the singers rallying round to highjack this new session venue :-)

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 11:25 AM

You say the pub has "practically no custom" at present, which may be good from the viewpoint of starting folk events there, but is obviously not good from the licensee's viewpoint. They will be keen to get people in every day, not just one day a week. And soon, or they will have to close the pub again.

It sounds as if there might be scope for various musical events on different days of the week - maybe a 'joining in' session one day, a 'singaround' on another, and even a guest folk club type night on another. It will take time to establish all these and build up the regular clientele, but it sounds as if they have nothing to lose by trying. (I hesitate to suggest it here, but maybe they could even have non-folk music on other nights - trad jazz or blues, for instance)

Good luck with it anyway!

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: stallion
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 12:11 PM

Don't understand the oil and water bit, Tap & Spile Fridays is a mixed session and I think it works quite well for all, I have it on good authority that should one sing on tuesday nights session at the Maltings one is thrown out by the management, the session musicians are not so bothered, and, sundays at the Golden Ball have a bit of singing mmmmmmm and yet alas I did once, at the Traf Bay, threaten to drive a fiddlers bow up his a**e if he didn't take a break and give the voices a chance but that is pretty rare these days.
Peter

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Nick
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 12:48 PM

Now this is why it would perhaps have been better for the landlady to post here...

Scrump

They are hoping to have music several days a week - the folk part is an interest that she has particularly and wanted to pursue. They are intending to try to have live bands too. The pub, as I said earlier, is an area that could draw from quite a large student community and so a range of music could be put on - Bands - Diddly diddly session - Acoustic singers night - Singaround etc etc etc

My only suggestion - which links in with GrahamP's comment is that in my experience the truly driven session player is rarely that interested in singing WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF A SESSION. If you know York and went to the Maltings on a Tesday with a view to singing a song I think you would be sorely disappointed.

At the outset of setting things up you at least have the ability to define your terms and - perhaps not strangely - things may well stay that way. We have run a mixed weekly gathering where we are for four and a bit years and people know the (mostly unstated) rules where we are ie that we go round in a circle and when it's your turn you can do what you like; that you join in with others if encouraged and desist if discouraged; that you show some respect for others when they perform blah blah... Mick at Monks Walk Beverley runs something similar as do many others. It happens to work for us.

In York there is a session crowd who go to the Maltings on Tuesday; Golden Ball on a Sunday; Tap and Spile on a friday though the last is more of a mixed gathering - noise levels determining though that something noisy is pretty much the only way to cut through. The Tap and Spile being a 'leap in if your brave' session can mean that if there is a good crowd of session players then the singers probably take a backseat (with the eception of Stallion and co who could probably drown a full orchestra doing the 1812 on a good night).

As they have the opportunity to attract a range of people it seemed silly to spoil a session night by compromising it with singers, and would make more sense to have a singaround - acoustic night or similar on a different night.

Alternatively to have a mixed night where you try to accommodate everyone which I think might fall between all the stools. In my experience true session players like to get stuck in and segue between tunes and people with occasional pauses for a quick slake of the favoured tipple but little else.

Added to that is Lorna's liking of instrumental session music - and probably it's wider immediate appeal to the general public (debate that one if you care) - and it would seem best to try to establish that first.

I might be totally wrong of course which is why I raised it here for other's input.

As I said above, our personal experience out at Flaxton has been to create a very different beast because it suits the regular crowd of people who come, and the visitors who come (and usually come back) come because they know exactly what the evening is about rather than guessing and being disappointed.

I try to go to Monks Walk Session in Beverley when I can because I know what it will be and could probably name a number of other places where I travel with some certainty rather than in hope.

If they decide to go for a mixed session that's fine as long as people kow what they are coming to. As Stallion pointed out in the post above with the massed guitar band - he left because it wasn't what he chose to do, and I would guess he has never been back.

If they create a nice environment for people to play and know what they are getting they will do fine as long as they do all the other things right! If you go and have a cracking session one week and next week it is something totally different then there is a chance you may potentially lose your hardcore session players (ho ho the ones who perform in the nude...) and by trying to be all things to all people end up being none of them.

My 40p worth anyway.

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: stallion
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 04:49 PM

Nick
You are probably right, in the sense that a Muso session is more or less wallpaper to a lot of people who even go to listen to the music, it is a pleasant background to the evening and, may I dare to say, quite insular. Singing is quite different, maybe for some it has to be listened to, but as I strike that drum again, singing is good for the soul and you can't beat a rousing chorus of many souls, however, I think that when it is all singing there is no room for chat and the music gives people time to chinwag which I believe is also an essential ingredient of a good night out. And, before the musos jump up and demand respect, the instruments tend to be far louder than all the noise in the bar so why not.
Peter

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Tootler
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

Given what Nick has said, I think a music session is probably the way to go. A group of musicians playing "in the background" is likely to be a draw for some and could help to attract punters to the pub. The players themselves are mostly there to enjoy themselves and to take an opportunity to play with other like minded folk. If that is the case, then everybody is happy.

It is a pity that for some that playing and singing are seen as mutually exclusive activities. I think that is their loss. I like to do both and go to both sessions and singarounds (if that is a correct plural) and I find that there are a few singarounds who are quite happy for you to play a tune instead of singing when it's your turn. In an evening, if I get two turns, I will usually play a tune in one and sing a song in the other and that seems to go quite well at Folk Clubs I go to.

I agree, stallion, that singing choruses with a group is satisfying, but so is playing with a group of other musicians.

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

I find that there are a few singarounds who are quite happy for you to play a tune instead of singing when it's your turn. In an evening, if I get two turns, I will usually play a tune in one and sing a song in the other and that seems to go quite well at Folk Clubs I go to

Yes, and if you want to play with others you can usually invite others to join you when it's your turn. That's fine, as long as they don't think they can join in with everyone else, every time (there was another thread about session/singaround etiquette recently which discussed this sort of thing).

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: stallion
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 11:20 AM

tootler
I think we agree, I go to the maltings and golden ball occasionally to meet people and listen to the music, I go to the tap to sing and listen to music, I would like to think that we are all friends out for a good night using whatever instrument one has and my voice is the only instrument I have or I would be in there with the rest of the musos!

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 04:39 AM

.

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: stallion
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:37 AM

Just had a note go round the Tap last night, looks likely that the session at the Reindeer will be Monday evenings, an aside, I was working there and I couldn't get anyone to answer the door, I called the office and asked them for the number, office worker claimed they were not in the telephone directory, "how are you spelling that?" I asked!

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: GUEST,Lorna
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:37 AM

I am the landlady referred to in the posting by Nick 7/1/07. I am thinking about having some sort of folk music on on a Saturday night. It all depends who can do a regular slot and how many come to it. Is anyone available for a slot between 7 and 9.30-10? Is there anything on close by that will affect it?

Ideas suggestions welcome.

The sessional music will be starting on a Monday, (trial session) on either 29th Jan or 5th Feb - yet to be confirmed. All welcome!!!

At The Reindeer, Penley's Grove Street, York.

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: selby
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:35 AM

Lorna
What sort of pipes do you play and are under 18's welcome?

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:36 PM

Lorna,
I'd love to come over from Harrogate with a couple of folkie mates who play and sing - which date is the trial session?
Roger

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Nick
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:31 AM

Which Saturday were you thinking of, Lorna? I have half a dozen gigs booked in York with my son's band over the coming weeks but if we are free I'm sure we'll try and pop down. I will mention it at Flaxton on Wednesday and see if anyone is interested.

What sort of format did you have in mind? Singaround or formal sitting at the front doing a set of songs?

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:51 PM

I will try and get along to the first session if it's on the 5th Feb. Can't make 29 Jan, Tom Paxton's on at the Sage and I have tickets.

York is a little further than I would like to travel too often, but if it seems to be going well, then maybe monthly.

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: GUEST,Lorna
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:38 AM

Well, the dates for the starting Monday with the sesisonal music are either 29th of Jan or 5th Feb. I don't know yet exactly as I am waiting for the folk club to get back to me with the best date for them.

I was thinking more about a singaround than a formal sitting and listening session for a Sat and for it to start whenever people are available. If people are interested in this, post a thread and I'll guage when enough people are available on a Sat for it to start.

We don't have any under 18's in the pub on a night, it's a stipulation on the premisis licence and we must stick to it.

Lorna

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:40 AM

I forget to answer one of the questions before!!! I play the highland bagpipes, piano accordian, chords on the guitar, recorders, bit piano and do folk singing as well. I also highland and clog dance!

Hope this answers the question.

Lorna

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Nick
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 08:24 AM

I could do it this Saturday if you want and could probably bring a few others along.

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: GUEST,Lorna
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 10:19 AM

This Saturday would be great. Anyone else who can come would be most welcome. Sing around at the Reindeer, Penley's Grove Street Sat 21st Jan. We'll see how it goes from here.

Lorna

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Pilgrim
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 10:29 AM

Would be very interested to know how you get on. I am in York
once a month and am looking for a place to take the Pilgrimettes,
as the music pub I usually go to - no names no pack drill, but
not a folk club - is unwelcoming to the point of embarassment. Will
pop in for a pint when I am up, even if it isn't a Saturday.

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 01:19 PM

I have just had word that the sessional music is confirmed for Monday 29th Jan. I am hoping it will be a regular thing so please feel free to come along and join in, and to this Saturday's singaround.

Lorna

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 01:21 PM

Re Sat - great news - but we've two concerns:
(1) any chance it can take place in a smoke-free area/separate room please Lorna?
and (2) it ain't worth travelling 40 miles to get there and then find there's no parking available without paying an arm and a leg!

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Nick
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 01:43 PM

Parking at most will cost you £2.10 I think. There are probably a few free places to park close if you use a little tact and diplomacy.

I don't speak for the pub but there is no chance of a separate room the pub isn't that shape or type. Unless things have changed dramatically over the last week it won't be packed out apart from people who have come to sing or play.

I will turn up about 8.30ish hopefully with a few others and join anyone else who cares to sing.

Shall we just do a singaround in a circle - one song / tune and onto the next, anyonee who wants to contribute gets a go; if you want no accompaniment say - if you are happy for people to join in state key and invite people to join in? And a few chorus songs/ensemble bits every now and then. Views welcome.

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: stallion
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM

I would dearly like to bring "the Boys", Ron won't be at the tap friday, might be difficult for him to get out, don't know why I think it will be difficult for Ron I have to try and get a pass out for a second night running, ah well. we shall see.

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Nick
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:22 AM

It would be good to see you if you can sneak away.

Will you mention it at the Tap tonight in case people want to come?

Subject: RE: Advice 4 new folk friendly venue in York
From: Nick
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 03:52 AM

See you this evening