Origins: The Bonny Irish Maid

Subject: RE: The Bonny Irish Maid
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:23 PM

Your recollection is spot on; it was Henry who ascribed Dobbin to McGowan of Armagh. Unfortunately with no indication of a date; the broadside edition I mentioned earlier is also undated, but likely not earlier than the mid 19th century.

Subject: RE: The Bonny Irish Maid
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 01:46 PM

Hi Malcolm. Dobbin's Flowery Vale sounds to me like the work of a single author, is what I was trying to say... who might have taken a rougher-edged 'folk' version of the Irish Maid and fancied it up. Of course, it could be vice-versa; 'Dobbin' might have been written by an individual, fresh out of his or her own head, and then, through the folk process, got simplified into the Irish Maid. But the theme and the setting are so common, that it's hard to believe anyone wrote it as a composition without basing it on something that already existed.

I encountered two suggested authors for it, by the way: a McGowan, shoemaker, of Chapel Lane, Armagh City (in Sam Henry's Songs of the People, I think - this is from memory, without checking) and James Garland of Lurgan.

Subject: RE: The Bonny Irish Maid
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:59 PM

Perhaps; but it doesn't necessarily follow. A lot of 19th century (and earlier) Irish songs in English are thick with classical allusions.

Of course, a fair proportion will have come from the broadside press, and some of those are quite puzzling, being sometimes written to a formula by people who didn't really have the education to get it right; but there are also plenty of songs made by people who obviously did know what all the references meant, and were keen to show as much.

The "hedge schools" often provided a surprisingly good literary education for people who wouldn't otherwise have got much, and it seems to have been a matter of pride to demonstrate that you could make songs and poetry in the increasingly fashionable English language as well as in Gaelic.

Subject: RE: The Bonny Irish Maid
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 05:04 PM

...and I would agree that Dobbin's Flowery Vale and The Irish Maid are relatives. The tunes are similar, as well as the stories being the same, verse for verse. I'd guess that 'Dobbin' came after, since it's the one with all the classical allusion, and also it has consistent internal rhymes; evidently the work of an author; probably a fancied-up version of the other?

Subject: RE: The Bonny Irish Maid
From: GUEST,Helen Roche
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 04:59 PM

I may be a bit late joining this thread, but I just wanted to mention that I recognise the three final verses given initially, not from another song, but from *three* other songs! The 'I went to church last Sunday' verse is very close to the first verse of 'Going to Mass Last Sunday', sung by Rita Gallagher. The 'O love it is a killing thing, did you ever feel the pain?' line in the next verse is also found in a verse of 'Bonnie Tavern Green' sung by Paddy Tunney. And the 'I wish I was a butterfly' verse is almost the same as a verse of 'I Wish my Love was a Red, Red Rose' sung by Sarah Makem. It's a whole pile-up of songs in one... :-)

cheers
Helen

Subject: RE: The Bonny Irish Maid
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 04:23 PM

I don'treally think that The Irish Girl is the same song. The Bonny Irish Maid looks more like a form of Erin's Flowery Vale or Dobbin's Flowery Vale (both Roud 999, Laws O29). These songs have the advantage of telling the same basic story, whereas the Irish Girl complex (Roud 308) is quite different.

See, for example,

Erin's Flowery Vale  DT set; American version from Doerflinger.

Dobbin's Flowery Vale  Forum discussion with text from Hughes, Irish Country Songs, II.

Broadside editions:

Erin's flow'ry vale
Dobbin's flowery vale

Some confusion has obviously existed between the songs over quite a long period; the first verse, with its reference to Blackwater Side, does seem to have come from The (New) Irish Girl in the first place.

Subject: RE: The Bonny Irish Maid
From: masato sakurai
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 02:03 AM

An edition is at The Murray Collection:

The Irish Girl (Printed and sold by James Lindsay. Jun., Stationer, &c.; 9 King Street, Glasgow)

Subject: RE: The Bonny Irish Maid
From: Bearheart
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 08:35 PM

I've been interestd in this song for some time-- in the late 80's or early 90's Tommy Sands did a concert here in our little college town. I drove him to the airport next day and he sang me a version very similar to many, which he let me tape, but the words end with the fellow's protestations of faithfulness. Oddly enough I had just found it again and transcribed the words for my personal songbook. I'm off tomorrow traveling for two weeks but will try to post the words when I get back. Am curious if he learned his version that way or amended it to be more happy for the woman?

Bekki

Subject: RE: The Bonny Irish Maid
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 11:49 PM

I might point out that Lou Killen recorded this as "The Lovely Irish Maid" on a 1977 LP "OLD SONGS, OLD FRIENDS" (Front Hall FHR-012). It is a very nice rendition.

All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: THE BONNY IRISH MAID
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 12:14 AM

I seem to have missed this thread when it was resurrected a few months ago. I ought just to mention that, just because a song has a title vaguely similar to another, it doesn't necessarily follow they are related. I'm not convinced that any of the broadsides "Storyteller" cites are related to the song under discussion here; though many contain verses in common with the last three in the set quoted some six years ago at the beginning of this thread; which, as Martin Ryan pointed out at the time, belong properly to a different song.

Subject: Lyr Add: MY BONNIE BORDER LASS
From: Shane Gibbons
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 11:51 PM

Ed Miller did a beautiful twist on this song, by making the Irish Maid from the Scottish lowlands, on his Lowlander cd. This cd is worth buying for this song alone, but also contains many other beautiful songs, including a love song to whiskey (I'm not kidding--it's gorgeous), entitled "More Than Just A Dram".

MY BONNIE BORDER LASS

As I roved out one morning fair, twas early as I strayed,
It being all in the month o'May and the birds sang in the shade.
The sun shone down right merrily, and the river did swiftly glide,
Where the heather bells and the bracken grow, by Gala Water side.

I hadn't gone but half a mile when there by chance I spied,
Twa lovers talking as they walked by Gala Water side,
And as he embraced her in his arms, he said "your doubts will pass,
For when I am in America, I'll be true to my Border lass."

"Oh when you are in America, the Yankee girls you'll find,
And you'll have sweethearts of your own, more pleasing to your mind
But don't forget all the promises you've made in these months past,
Oh stay at home and do not roam from your bonnie Border lass."

"Oh when I am in America, those Yankee girls I'll see,
But they must be very pretty, my love, to remind me of thee;
For there's no a bird in yonder bush nor flower in yon green grass
But does remind me, love, of you, my bonnie Border lass."

And so these two young lovers, so fondly did embrace;
Like the sudden rain of a summer's morn, the tears ran down her face,
Saying "there's no a day while you're away, but I'll raise a hopeful glass,
Until you do return again to your bonnie Border lass."

Subject: RE: THE BONNY IRISH MAID
From: Ulysses 1874
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:55 PM

Martin,

Thanks for that. At a guess, I'd say I bought the tape sometime in 1989.

I never realised it had been remastered for CD.

I do now.

:^)

Ulysses

Subject: RE: THE BONNY IRISH MAID
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 04:18 PM

Ulysses..

"Many's the foolish youth" was first issued as tape in 1987 and remastered for CD in 1995.

Tony Holleran ran a folk club in Athlone for many years. I learned many songs from him. At one stage he said to me, in mock exasperation, "You ought to meet Phil Callery - he likes the same ould rubbish as you do!". He was right, too!

Regards

Subject: RE: THE BONNY IRISH MAID
From: GUEST,Storyteller
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:01 PM

This is one of those songs which has so many variants that it is hard to tell what is just a different version of a particular song, or what is a fragment of it, or what represents a 'different ' song altogether.
The song was widespread in the 19th century, but it took on a lot of local "colourings", as can be seen by the number of ballad sheets just in the Bodleian alone.
"The Irish girl" and "The New Irish Girl"

1) Ballad sheet: printed by W. McCall, Liverpool, between 1857 & 1877
The Irish Girl (McCall #1)
The Irish Girl (McCall #2)

2) Ballad sheet: printed by T.Hogget, Durham, between 1816 & 1843
The Irish Girl (Hogget #1)
The Irish Girl (Hogget #2)

3) Ballad sheet: printed by Wm. Armstrong, Liverpool, between 1820 & 1824
The Irish Girl (Armstrong #1)
The Irish Girl (Armstrong #2)

4) Ballad sheet: printed by W. Stephenson, Gateshead, between 1821 & 1838
The Irish Girl (Stephenson)

5)Ballad sheet: printed by J.Evans, London, between 1780 & 1812
The Irish Girl (Evans)

6) Ballad sheet: printed by J.Catnach and others, London, between 1813 & 1838
The Irish Girl (Catnach)

7) Ballad sheet: no imprint, no date, (only partially legible)
The Irish Girl (n.a.)

8) Ballad sheet: printed by J. Harkness, Preston, between 1840 & 1868
The Irish Girl (Harkness)

9) Ballad sheet: no imprint, no date
The Irish Girl (undated)

10) Ballad sheet: printed by J.Lindsay, Glasgow, between 1851 & 1910
The Irish Girl (Lindsay)

11) Ballad sheet: printed by W. Carse, Glasgow, c. 1825
The Irish Girl (Carse

12) Ballad sheet: Printed by T. Batchelar, London, between 1817 & 1828
The Irish Girl (Batchelar)

13) Ballad sheet; Utterly illegible (!)
The Irish Girl (Illegible)

14) Ballad sheet: Printed by H. Such, London, 1849 - 1864
The New Irish Girl (Such #1)
The New Irish Girl (Such #2)

15) Ballad sheet; Printed by J.Pitts, London, between 1819 & 1844
The New Irish Girl (Pitts #1)
The New Irish Girl (Pitts #2)
The New Irish Girl (Pitts #3)
The New Irish Girl (Pitts #4)
The New Irish Girl (Pitts #5)

Subject: RE: THE BONNY IRISH MAID
From: Brían
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:05 PM

That's the melody I have, Stewart. Maith an buachaill.

Brían

Subject: RE: THE BONNY IRISH MAID
From: GUEST,Stewart (not at home)
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 06:43 PM

I just happen to have a sound file of my singing the song
HERE
on my website HERE

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: THE BONNY IRISH MAID
From: Ulysses 1874
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:46 PM

Wow! Is this thread really 6 years old?

A favourite song of mine.

Martin Ryan mentions the second last verse, which came from Phil Callery rather than Tony Holleran:

"It's many's the foolish youth" she said, "has gone to a distant shore
Leaving behind his own true love, perhaps to meet no more..."

The first line gave its name to the album "Many's The Foolish Youth" (Phil Callery, Fran MacPhail and Gerry Cullen). The inlay card notes on my copy simply say "Phil got this version from Tony Holleran".

On the album, they sing it slightly differently:

"It's many's the foolish youth" she said, "has gone to some foreign shore
Leaving behind his own true love, perhaps to see no more..."

The other thing is, I can't remember when the album was released or when I bought it. There's no date anywhere on the tape or card. If anyone knows, I'd appreciate having my memory jogged.

Subject: RE: THE BONNY IRISH MAID
From: radriano
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:40 PM

I have to agree with Martin's comment that the last three verses of the original post to this thread seem to be from another song.

Great song, though!

Subject: RE: THE BONNY IRISH MAID
From: Brían
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:25 PM

I've heard a recording of Mick Moloney singing this, but I don't know if it's the same melody. I could make a midi. I would have to download the anvil studio again. I'll save this thread.

Brían

Subject: RE: THE BONNY IRISH MAID
From: MMario
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 11:15 AM

tune??

Subject: Lyr Add: THE BONNY IRISH MAID (from Tony Holleran)
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 10 Mar 97 - 09:29 AM

This is "The Bonny Irish Maid" as I learned it from a singer called Tony Holleran, twenty-five years ago. The Battlefield Band, I think, learned from him and recorded it sometime in the late seventies.

**********
As I roved out one morning fair, it early as I strayed
It being all in the month of May the birds sang in the shade
The sun shone down right merrily and the water did swiftly glide
Where primroses and daisies grow, down by Blackwaterside

I had not gone but half a mile when there by chance I spied
Two lovers talking as they walked down by Blackwaterside
And as he embraced her in his arms, these words to her he said
"When I'm in America I'll be true to my Bonny Irish Maid."

"Oh when you are in America the Yankee girls you'll find
And you'll have sweethearts of your own more pleasing to your mind
But do not forget the promises and the vows to me you made
Oh stay at home and do not roam from your bonny Irish maid."

"Oh when I'm in America, the Yankee girls I'll see
But they must be very pretty love, to remind me of thee
For there's not a bird in yonder bush nor or flower in yon green glade
But does remind me love of you, my bonny Irish maid"

"It's many's the foolish youth" she said, "has gone to a distant shore
Leaving behind his own true love, perhaps to meet no more
It's in crossing of the Atlantic foam, sometimes their graves are made
Oh stay at home and do not roam from your bonny Irish maid."

And so these two young lovers so fondly did embrace
Like honey drops upon the dew, the tears ran down her face
Saying there's not a day while you're away but I'll visit still these glades
Until you do return again to your bonny Irish maid.

The second last verse came from Phil Callery ho had only it for years until he met Tony!
Regards

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 22-May-02.

Subject: RE: THE BONNY IRISH MAID
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 10 Mar 97 - 04:49 AM

Interesting. The last thee verses seem to have come from another song. I'll put in the ones usually used in Ireland when I get a chance.

Regards

Subject: Lyr Add: THE BONNY IRISH MAID (trad. Irish)
From:
Date: 08 Mar 97 - 10:22 AM

This one is missing in DT. Greetings from Italy and LONG LIFE TO DT!

THE BONNY IRISH MAID
(Traditional Irish)

As I roved out one morning fair, so early I strayed,
It being all in the month of June the birds sang in the shade.
The sun shone down right merrily and billowing with pride
Where primroses and daisies grow down the Blackwater-side.

I had no gone but half a mile when there by chance I spied
Two lovers talking as they walked down by the Blackwater-side.
And as he held her in his arms these words to her did say:
'When I am in Amerikay I'll be true to my Irish maid.'

'This when you are in Amerikay those Yankee girls you'll find,
And you'll have sweethearts all your own more pleasing to your mind.
Do not forget the promises and the vows to me you made,
Oh stay at home, love, and do not roam from your bonny Irish maid.'

'This when I'm in Amerikay those Yankee girl I'll see
But they have to be very handsome to remind my love of thee,
There's not a bloom in yonder grove nor a leaf in cry
My love's gone to Amerikay and quite forsaken me.

I went on the church last Sunday, my love he passed me by,
I knew his mind was changing by the roving of his eye.
I knew his mind was altering to a girl of high degree,
Oh Willie lovely Willie, your love has wounded me

Last night I lay in my bed, so sick and sad was I,
I called all for a napkin around my head to tie.
Was he as much in love as I, then perhaps I'd mend again,
O love it is a killing thing, did you ever feel the pain?

I wish I was a butterfly, I'd fly to my love's nest,
I wish I was a linnet, I would sing my love to rest.
And I wish I was a nightingale, I would sing my song so clear,
I would sing it all for you, false love, whom once I loved so dear.
----------------
Recorded by Oisin on "Bealoideas", Ossian Publications, Cork, Ireland, 1995 - previously issued on Tara label.

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 22-May-02.