Why is there never Folk on TV?

Subject: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Eddie Frost
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 11:45 AM

Is it me or is there never any good folk on TV. Some channels have bad music on loop for 24 hours everyday!

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 11:47 AM

Depends where you live, old boy - I've seen some good folk on TV in Scandinavia.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 11:51 AM

probably the tv folk hear what the folk radio progs are playing, see the audience figures and say - sod that for a lark.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 11:51 AM

Some of us dont own television sets

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Eddie Frost
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 11:53 AM

Especially when its Autumn and all of the summer festivals have gone. I feel a void.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:04 PM

A Good Folk Fix early in the year is Portaferry - See the Loughstock2007 NornIron thread !

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Eddie Frost
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:09 PM

Sounds good!

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:14 PM

Weelittledrummer: I dont always agree with you, but I have to say your post earlier receives my 200% support(leaving aside the fact that Mike Harding and Late Junction and Bob Harris played some Boat Band last year).

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Scrump
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:15 PM

weelittledrummer is right, it's because Folk is (perceived as) a minority interest and the TV companies are only interested in ratings.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:18 PM

PBS Channel 13 in New York has it on but only during a fundraising drive. It is very annoying because they take 10 minute breaks between segments so you can listen to their appeals for money.

                                             SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: mustradclub
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:24 PM

While like all folk music fans I would like to see the music get more coverage on the box. I must admit that sometimes I am glad that too much is not shown because what is is often embarrasing. Last years womens concert at the Barbican to take one example was with the exception of Norma and Liza Carthy dreadful. The BBC still has this "light and bright" outlook when it comes to broadcasting music and it has done folk music no favours as so many youngsters are put off by it. The BBC's efforts tend to totally misrepresent what goes on in the folk scene. We see little of the passion and yes political commitment which drew me towards folk music.

Another thing is I just dont think live music comes accross on the tele. Some years ago I went to see Ralph Stanley at the Barbican it was a wonderful occassion but some weeks later I saw a broadcast of the same concert on the box and just couldnt believe it was the same night.

However if concert and live footage is usually dissapointing it must be said that I enjoyed the docs on the history of the folk scene that the beeb put out last year.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Eddie Frost
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:24 PM

There was a good programme on last year on UK TV. There is a clip on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCX_sfbd0R4

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Ernest
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:33 PM

Essentially it is something I don`t miss much (but I rarely watch muical programs anyway*). See the good side of it: people have to go out to concerts, festivals, sessions this way. Think if how many people would simply stay at home and watch the telly otherwise.
Best
Ernest
*on new years eve we had Springsteen & the Seeger Session Band ans afterwards Johnny Cash on tv over here - if that is folky enough for you

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Scoville
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:36 PM

Heh heh--I'm thinking of Dylan's "Talking John Birch Society" where he find Reds on the TV set: "Hootenanny television!", followed by audible laughter from the audience.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 03:50 PM

TV is part of the 'music industry'. Central to the industry is the myth that music is something only a small number of people are 'gifted' enough to produce, so everyone else has to be a consumer, and pay for professionals to make their music for them. This allows all the agents, managers, producers and other hangers on to take their cut from music too.

Folk music challenges the myth. Yes we can enjoy watching highly talented professionals, but we know that talent is more graft than gift, and we know that we too can make music - if we're prepared to put in the hours. The idea that people can make their own music is anathema to 'music industry' types such as those who run TV - we challenge the need for their existence.

Small wonder they don't put much folk music on TV - and when they do, they try to present it as just another part of their 'industry'.

Turn off and sing something!

Andrew

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,John from Elsie`s Band
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 05:48 PM

I expect the answer to the question is the same for why we see no croquet on t.v.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 06:01 PM

but, relatively speaking, croquet is very popular.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 06:04 PM

Well said, Andy.

For the little which IS on tv, I try to make a point of contacting the broadcaster and praising the programme to the stars - sometimes even if I have to cross my fingers behind my back. OK - maybe it isn't enough to make a sea-change in broadcaster attitudes, but it helps. They get so many calls of complaint, praise tends to stand out.

sian

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 06:25 PM

well i said that, but I don't really have anything constructive to say.

mike harding has his ideals and he's true to them. you could say the same about mick peat. I'm sure they're not bad blokes.

I find both their programmes pretty tough going, and I tend to think someone like me who spends his life round folk clubs should be consumed with excitement - and thinking great! this is something I love, and I don't want to miss....that's how I feel about folk clubs.

to be honest some it is down to sheer technical incompetence - the incompetence of the folk artists when it comes to performing on the radio. I'm useless on the radio, talking about my music or performing it. I remember one day I had turned in a typical lack lustre crappy performance for the afternoon programme on Radio Derby, and I was sitting in bed the next morning when Glen Campbell came on the Ned Sherrin Loose Ends programme. That guy had been doing radio programmes since he was twelve, and I swear - he had it down as a craft - how to make a good radio spot. he was brilliant - choice of instrument he had selected to turn up with, song, introduction to song - very listenable - even if you weren't keen on country music - it was faultless.

Do they teach how to make a good radio interview anywhere in these new music colleges. I bet they don't.

i realise theres a huge divergence within the folk community about different styles. and some people just can't abide traditional or contemporary folk music. that doesn't help.

Perhaps also its abit like shakespeare - you have to be there. has there ever been a good film conveying what its like to be within a few feet of Michel Hordern as Lear, Simon Russell Beale as Richard 3, or Derek Jacobi or Michael pennington as richard 2.... I don't think so.

Perhaps folk music just isn't much good on film and tv. I think the best things I've seen in recent years on film was probably that documentary about Christy Moore, and the Ralph McTell concert from from Croydon earlier in his career. Oh yes and strangely enough the guitar lessons section by Eric Roche - much better than the concert.

More likely I think is the fact that it takes a very special person to sell folk music. Someone who is a good film maker, and a fan of the music - and with an idea of its strengths.

they don't grow on trees.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 06:34 PM

Hi Andrew
an' to further that, I'd say that the drive for those that make & listen to their own home grown folk don't really see the need or have the drive to push the commerical end (which is all they'd get anyway) of folk music when there's a hell of a lot better going on down the street, many nights of the week.
Though if it were a decent production (it does happen) I wouldn't mind watching it but I'd never watch at home if I could walk or drive to hear something live or sing or play.


Barry

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 06:50 PM

Well said, Crane Driver. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM

At one time there was quite a bit of folk music on the TV. OK the Spinners isn't everyone's idea of folk music but they had a series on every year in the 70's - TV and Radio. The Houghton Weavers had a run of series in North West England region with their programme "Sit Thee Deawn", Gary and Vera Aspey did a few TV spots, There were three TV series of Ballad of the North West in the mid 70's on BBC North West which told historical stories with songs, Isla St Clair had a couple of series of "The Song and The Story" on national TV and I'm sure there were other programmes as well - Mike Harding, Fivepenny Piece,
The arguments will come in that "It's not proper folk music" but I bet it got quite a few people interested in finding out more about the genre. TV isn't interested unless it gets ratings Best we can hope for at the moment is some highlights from Glastonbury or The Cambridge Folk Festival in some graveyard slot on BBC4 or an unrepresentative documentary about folk in the 60's.
I await comments!
Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Forsh
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 08:15 PM

How do you think I feel? ... :( BBC Radio, I scroll through the shows on line, and find NOWT from BBC Radio Newcastle! We have "Roots" with Baz Khinda, great African & Asian & even Bloody Chinese, but NO ENGLISH FOLK! Proud to be a Geordie?

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Ernest
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 02:07 AM

Interesting ideas here...

So who is going to talk Ry Cooder into making a film about the Chieftains, Waterson/Carthy or (insert your favourite musicians here)?

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 03:17 AM

As someone said above, it depends where you are. It also depends whether you mean a programme completely dedicated to folk music, or one where folk music is an integral part. For example, on BBC4 in the first few days of January 2007 they showed a programme called 'Viking Fire'. It was badly named, in that it didn't give much of clue what the programme was about, but it was actually a documentary about the Up-Helly-AA festival in the Shetlands. By its nature, that included a lot of Shetland folk music.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 03:33 AM

There are, at least on UK terrestrial TV which is all I know about, very few music programs anyway. Regular rock/pop, but that's about it. No Classical, Romantic, Baroque, Early Music, 20th Century Serialism (thank God), trad jazz, big band, swing, modern jazz, or folk of any sort. The very occasional World Music thing when all the big numbers have gone to bed and ratings don't matter much.

All down to ratings and the social pretensions of the program makers. Don't forget they are all very afraid, if you let your credibility slip you won't get another commission, so they are always looking over their shoulder to see what the others are doing. Hence all we get is What Is Your Celebrity Island Worth or Celebrity Chef Being Kind To Cripples Day.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 03:59 AM

Okay Paul, but I think you have to look further. WHY are more people willing to listen all day and night to Jade Goody's tentative engagement with the English language than want to listen to a ten minute Aly Blain piece?

I'm not saying there isn't an answer, but the answer doesn't stare you in the face. Whatever the truth of the matter - it isn't simple.

The idea that you simply have to point a microphone or a film camera at a folk artist to produce sparkling radio and television has been proved bloody nonsense any number of times by BBC2. the transatlantic sessions being a good case in point. there were one or two stand out performances - nobody can argue with Paul Brady doing Arthur MacBride - but the overall thing was less than rivetting. The idea that you can just sling together a few virtuosi, and great television will emerge by some happy accident - it really doesn't work. If you worship the ground Emmylou Harris and Aly Blain walk on, it might be okay - but it loses most people pretty quickly

I think maybe, the truth lies in the cutting and editing of these films. I had three DVDs of folk artists given me for Christmas - they're all people I wordhipped. They've all been rubbish, really boring. Never mind, back to Jade......

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Splott Man
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 04:04 AM

I think there's probably more than we credit. It's just not on when we're watching, or we're not looking for it in the schedules. Admittedly there are no programmes dedicated to folk, except now and again on BBC4, but I occasionally catch a piece out of the blue while skipping through the channels. Just before Christmas, by chance I caught a programme on S4C with Crasdant and Sian James among others.
It's more noticeable in its absence on national TV, but I think TV in the Celtic fringes does it with more understanding (if that makes sense).

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 05:13 AM

I think some of it has to be to do with the fact that many people aren't listening to music at all, but enhancing their personal status and self- image. It's not important what the music sounds like- the main thing is that it should be the curtrently most widely acceptable music. Remember what music (and dance) is FOR- a mutual grooming that identifies you as part of a group. If you can share allusions to/ gossip about the latest pop idol, you have (part of) the entry qualification for the largest group - particularly of potential partners.

There's a lot of this status thing in culture. It's why management types play golf- that's where other higher status management types are to be found. Why fast an obsession with cars is cool, but ditto with fast trains is sad. Why wearing Gap clothes is in, wearing the identical object from Primark is out.

And of course it's in every seller's advantage to get into such a position, no matter what they are selling.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Eddie Frost
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 05:25 AM

Did anyone see that programme on five about Kathryn Tickell? Think it was february.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 05:29 AM

Why worry about the bloody telly?

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Compton
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 05:31 AM

Perhaps when record companies don't make any money from the "Pop Industry" due to Internet download, then they'll look at people with "minority interest"...and Folk Music will be the new black!
...but perhaps that's for another thread!

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 05:49 AM

I think the Big Brother fly on the wall idea is worth a comment. The whole point of those shows is that you do not have to join them at the start and watch very second to understand(?) what is happening.
Perhaps we should just put a live camera in a singaround room and keep filming all through the night after the pub has shut.
That way, people might watch the bits where somebody is singing!
Oh well!
Just a thought...
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 05:51 AM

IMO there are 2 crucial reasons why there is not much folk on TV (although there is a lot more on radio, but not enough).

1. TV is all about image and visuals (obviously), and most folk musicians are not too savvy in this department. On the other hand, pop music is quite the reverse. It is ALL about image, and the music can come second. Take somebody like Robbie Williams (who incidentally is brilliant on camera). He came from a group (Take That)who were put together purely to look good. The music was sorted out by an army of people behind the scenes. The fact that he has emerged as a great talent is a happy accident.
For most folk musicians, it is the music first and the image is an afterthought.
I think things are starting to change though, as the young bloods of the folk world have grown up in this MTV world and understand a lot better about the whole image thing.

2. We won't get more folk on TV until there is a critical mass of people working in TV who actually like folk music. At the moment, the few who do are voices in the wilderness, and are treated with derision by their colleagues if they voice this interest.
The folk music degree courses are supposed to equip people to succeed in (folk) music as a career. I'm not sure how much they already address these issues, but I suspect they need to do a lot more. If there was significant content about image, and how to be a TV producer, they might be able to go along to the Beeb, degree in hand, and stand a chance of getting a job in TV. Then things will start to change.

All this throws up the question: Do we really want the folk scene to be like the pop world? We have already heard much from people on this forum when certain folks start behaving as if they are pop stars.
You can't have it both ways.
Graham

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 08:01 AM

Good points, Graham, especially the last one. A lot of folkies are the first to complain if any folk artist dares to put on a show, using lighting or electronic sound effects, for example. Folk music for some people isn't supposed to be "entertainment". Which is exactly the opposite of (mainstream) TV.

But as ThreeSheds says, does it matter anyway? I don't miss there being no folk music on telly. What you've never had, you shouldn't miss.

I decided a few years ago I was wasting away far too much of my life staring at that box with my eyes glazing over. If there was more folk music on it I wouldn't get out as much.

Do we want to encourage something that would make people stay in instead of supporting their local folk clubs and sessions? "Sorry, I'd love to come to the gig tonight but I'm watching the final of Folk Idol on telly".

Keep folk music off the telly, I say!

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 08:21 AM

WHY are more people willing to listen all day and night to Jade Goody's tentative engagement with the English language than want to listen to a ten minute Aly Blain piece?

Because Jade Goody doesn't talk for ten minutes at a time (if I were feeling uncharitable I'd say it was because she doesn't have the vocabulary, but it's more likely she doesn't have the neurons available to work both mouth and cognitive processes).

The average attention span of the general populace has shrunk from a 2 hour symphony to an 8 second soundbyte.

I regularly perform classical choral works and watching the audience is a revelation. The older members are happy to sit and actively listen. The middle aged members will listen carefully for the first 30 minutes or so. The younger members (and I'm afraid this includes half the orchestra) listen for the first couple of minutes of each separate piece.

Oddly enough, it's the youngest members, the under 5s who will sit, completely rapt until sleep overtakes them, usually in the second half. Of course, this sometimes happens to middle aged members too, but Limpit stops him from snoring too loudly.

And croquet is tedious. I have played croquet, and for a year I lived with one of the UK's top players. The most interesting thing about croquet is the vicious and malicious gossip that goes on between teams off the lawns, and the full scale wars that break out with bowls players over who left the divot in the lawns after the last match. It is not one of the world's most exciting spectator sports... particularly if you are colour blind or have a black and white TV. On radio it would be like having an automatic off switch that cuts in for 10 minute periods, 5 times in every hour.

LTS

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 08:24 AM

Wow, you used to live with John Prescott?

:-D

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 08:25 AM

No, the chap I lived with was much more violent!

LTS

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 09:04 AM

Methinks it depends on who is producing the programme.
In Germany we have some protagonists in the first programmes who dont give folk music but folklike music calling it folk musik: drumsets and a sound like swing.
But in Bavaria 3 (the regional programme) they have good people presenting families and groups singing folk just for fun, and the programme makers are lovers of folk and singing themselves. Especially in Bavaria they have an unbroken tradition of folk, even playing old instruments which are forgotten in the rest of Germany. Since more than 50 years the Bavarian station is transmitting wonderful sessions of folk music, some times showing collectors long gone and their records (audio and audiovisual).
It always depends on love, knowlege, and taste. Happy me to have the chance to listen to such transmissions at sunfay afternoons.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 11:33 AM

Scrump commented:

But as ThreeSheds says, does it matter anyway? I don't miss there being no folk music on telly. What you've never had, you shouldn't miss.


Ah, but we have had it! Look/Listen Here! Great!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Willa
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 03:46 PM

Forsh

have you found Radiobritfolk yet/ i f not, give it a try.http://www.radiobritfolkhome.co.uk/

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 04:28 PM

Nice one thats gone straight into favourites.

Its not that I'm totally against Tv its just that to me its a bit like a Donner kebab, a great idea if your too pissed to think of anything else!

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Mick
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 04:37 PM

Cause it ain't the 60's?

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 05:10 PM

The U.S. which is reputed to be one of the "freest countries in the world" has the most restrictive policy in TV transmission in the world. Occasionally, NPR will run a special on "The Carter Family" or "The Grand Ol' Opry" but because of the associative connotations of folk music with "leftist" or "radical", the media won't touch it because of the sponsorship concerns.

Also, what sells in the US is more important to the broadcasters than is what's good for the public. That's why US TV is the biggest purveyor of crap in the world.

Another problem for the broadcasters who are not in the business of educating the public but pandering to their lowest tastes is that Folk is fairly esoteric these days. We can't define it here on this chatsite so how can it be marketed successfully by neophytes?

I've heard people in the Bluegrass community speak of folk music as if it were something different than what they listen to as well as blues officianados. Folk has come to mean a sterotypical image of a scraggly-looking person playing a guitar in a coffee-house. When Joan Baez removed her shoes in concert, she was followed by a succession of barefoot contessas.

TV or not TV, that is the question. Is it nobler in mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous programming or take arms against a sea of garbage and by so opposing it, at least get rid of American Idiot Idol.

Frank

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Gulliver
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 07:08 AM

Ireland doesn't seem to have been mentioned so far. There's at least one weekly programme dedicated to traditional Irish music on RTE 1, the main TV station, and another on TG4, the Irish-language station.

Talkshows such as the Late Late show on RTE1 often have folk/traditional music, and sometimes the whole show is dedicated to a musician or group, for example the Dubliners, Chieftains, Sharon Shannon, Mary Black, etc. RTE 2 the second channel caters to a younger crowd but sometimes has folkies like Sean Spillane, concerts, etc.

There's probably more, but I'm out most evenings so don't keep up--anyway, I prefer my music live...

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Essex Girl
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:34 AM

Scotland & Ireland TV & radio are more likely to put on folk programmes, but then they also have a good record of supporting live music anyway. Try to find a pub in London where you can have a session or just get out a guitar and sing a couple of songs. Many people, especially the under 30's are scared of acoustic, live music and would much rather sit in a corner with an Ipod in their ears. On the other hand our local folk club have actually been asked to do a Saturday evening session at a local pub, presumably to try to bring in some more customers.(Folkies are quite well known for their beer consumption) We've had 2 good sessions so far. The next one is on Saturday 27th January, so if anyone is in the area, it's in Clancy's, Lower Road Woolwich. And after all who wants to spend Saturday night glued to the box, it's all C...p anyway.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:49 AM

Leadfingers

you old Heavy Metal Fist - you would short out all the connections with your digits.

FWIW I have never owned a TV - Mind you I have had 4 TV cards in various PC's

d8^)

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:54 AM

The general public/tv viewers see Folkies as finger in the ear, eyes closed, fairisle jumpers and socks with sandles. Unaccompanied, badly sung, boring songs. Neee arrr.
Need I say more? Sorry but that is the way it's been coming over for years. Something from the 60's, sung by people stuck in the 60's that're actually a bit quirky and funny. Something to poke fun at. Good TV? Hmmm...

Sal

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 09:06 AM

Well said.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: guitar
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 09:40 AM

sometimes bbc 4 or bbc three have folk stuff on them sometimes, the radio 2 folk awards or the some stuff from Celtic connections.

Tom

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 10:34 AM

Scotland and Ireland have a more homogenous folk culture than we do. Also a more rural population.

The generality of people in England see folk music as something middle class people do to avoid contact with the common culture of the people.

The Scottish and Irish TV companies have a more compliant audience than our chaps do.

Not every Jamaican likes reggae music. I'm willing to bet a fair few Irish people can't stand bloody jigs and reels. As it is, they're shafted with it - stuck with it, the whole maidens dancing at the crossroads malarkey.

We should look on our more diverse society as a position of strength. The first step might be to stop writing songs about how dreadfully we all suffered in the Crimean War....sorry that should read 'in the tradition'.

Just recently someone put that Copper song The Old Songs on Mudcat that Peter Bellamy used to sing - and as Martin Carthy said when he requested it on the radio at the time of Peter's death - it tells of the isolation of being a traditional singer.

At first you think, why should they feel isolated in their own country. But you read the lyrics and its all about how they would be welcomed aboard with open arms to sing to the men of The Victory.
How do they know they would.......?

Perhaps Nelson's men would tell them to sod off and sing something a bit more cheerful.

I dunno, but its no bleeding good expecting Nelson's crew to watch it on telly.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Bubblyrat
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 03:47 PM

If there was "folk" on TV , then more people would get to know about it. There is then the risk that many more people would go to Miskin or Bunkfest or Sidmouth, and overload those venues , to their ultimate detriment. Do we really want that ?? I"d hate it !!!

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 12:01 AM

'Catters' may be interested in subscribing (free) to the 'TV Genius Reminders' website which will give you a daily list of folk/trad music TV progs they have: http://[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:30 AM

In Ireland we have plenty of it: weekly sessions (Gantry), archive footage (Come West Along The Road, series, (The Raw Bar, Travellers) and some wonderful documentaries like the magnificent one on Joe Heaney, Sing Away The Dark. You can't throw a stone without hitting a traditional music programme on TV.
I have been involved in threads recently where it has been argued that not only is it not necessary to be proficient at singing and playing traditional music and song, but it is positively undesirable, as it puts off the mediocre.
Perhaps the question should be - is there enough good folk music and song (in the UK at least) to put on TV?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:59 AM

Probably not of that nature Jim, its a different country. but we have our own strengths - its just the people who are charged with this responsibility don't really get out enough into the community.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:55 AM

Maybe it's a good thing that there isn't more folk on TV. People might find it more fun to make the music for themselves (participation) rather than have it spoon-fed in front of a tube.

It's been my experience that much folk info which makes it to TV isn't very well researched. You get better information on Mudcat.

I don't think folk music needs to be evangelized. There are plenty of people who are making it for themselves, enjoying it and not having it imposed on them from an outside source with an agenda.

I worry more about the media of TV taking over people's minds in exchange for their own personal initiative in making music for themselves.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:20 PM

Weelittledrummer,
To clear up one point - I am a Brit (sort of) who moved to Ireland about 8 years ago, so I have an idea of the differences.
When the club scene was healthier the Beeb responded (albeit mostly on 3rd prog as it was) with more programmes on traditional music - not a huge amount but certainly more than now. I treasure my copies of The Song Carriers, Folk Music Virtuoso, The Lament, Voice of The People, and all the others that were broadcast from the sixties right into the late eighties, as well as Folk on Two and the other magazine programmes, not to mention offshoots from folk such as The Radio Ballads.
Now that a general malaise seems to have set in and and anything goes anyhow approach is the order of the day they don't bother, and I'm not sure that I blame them.
It really doesn't solve anything to accuse the media of indifference and hostility if these are the vibes they are getting from the folk scene.
Frank,
I assume you are referring to the U.S. - over here we had officianados like MacColl, Lloyd, Charles Parker, John Levy, Lucy Duran, Deben Battacharia with access to radio and TV - nowhere near as much as we would want, but certainly more than at present.
TV and radio are (particularly radio) perfect medias for the communication of both music and research, there's no reason why people shouldn't listen, learn and participate, we use books for the same thing, don't we?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:55 PM

Jim

What was it Allen Ginsberg said in Howl, I've seen the best minds of my generation.......

I've seen the best writers of my generation, who tried to write about life in England without the ee bah goom ecky thump phoniness of 'the tradition' and be completely bloody ignored by the media.

You can't tell me that I didn't see what I saw. I saw it. And it still pisses me off. Its the same kind of condescension that had john clare living in shit two hundred years ago.

come the revolution....

cheers
al

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:30 PM

Out of 29 music video channels that Sky Broadcasting broadcast they seem dedicated in broadcasting the absolute loose translation of the meaning of music.

1 channel dedicated to classical music
4 channels dedicated to metal noise
4 channels dediactes to MOBO
the rest (20) play processed noise aka pop
None are run by the BBC whom have one of the largest music archives out of all the channels in the world!!!

I think that at some point a channel dedicated to folk music and folk dance should come soon whether it's run by the BBC or an independent production company (say... FTV?!?).

I'd watch it and certainly it would be a nice idea for all those incapable of getting to a venue.

Any millionaire takers out there?

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 10:44 PM

'A channel dedicated to folk music'. Anybody from the BBC (Ralphie)listening, how about it?

They (BBC4 anyway) do seem to have made more effort than any other English TV channel, so maybe the BBC deserve the privilege of setting up such a channel!

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:59 AM

WLD Sorry - you've lost me completely (except for the 'come the revolution' bit which I subscribe to completely)
The point I was making is that there were GOOD programmes (certainly on the radio) when there was still some life in the folk scene.
The Radio Ballads were a case in point. Up to the making of the first one the practice of the BBC was to go out and record actuality and bring it into the studio and have it scripted for actors to read. 'The Ballad of John Axon' was embarked on with such intentions, but MacColl and Parker realised what a wealth of material they had recorded and insisted on using the actual recordings rather than actors - so you heard railway workers, fishermen, miners, boxers - real people, and not an ee bah gum between them. MacColl had been arguing this since his and Joan Littlewood's earlier programmes 'St Cecilia and The Shovel. 'Pit Stop' and 'Landscape With Chimneys'.
A TV channel dedicated to folk - not really. It terrifies me to think what the suits at the Beeb (or any other commercially-minded company) would do to folk music (apart from try to make money from it by dumbing it down to 'Big Brother' level). The policy that most television and radio channels have of buying in programmes might offer a solution - now that would be something for EFDSS to consider!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 08:53 AM

'Dumbing down'!

With somebody with the calibre of Ralph Jordan at the helm, it needn't be that way!

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:00 AM

My local cable has a channel for almost every kind of music genre imaginable...except folk.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:02 AM

See the 'Folk Hibernia' thread.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:38 AM

'A channel dedicated to folk music'. Anybody from the BBC (Ralphie)listening, how about it?

This has been mooted on many occasions over the years, but it never happens. I wonder why not? There are plenty of people with the necessary enthusiasm and ability in the media to make this happen.

I'll give you some reasons.
1. The BBC do not believe there is sufficient interest, given that the existing progs don't get good enough listening/viewing figures. (OK, I know this is because you are all out experiencing real live music, and anyway most of the existing progs are just not that good).

2. The commercial channels can't see a way of making any money out of it. This is of course a missed opportunity on their part - witness the vast amount of money that the folk festival circuit generates. This audience is generally in the ABC1 groups, and has larger than average disposable incomes. So why have they not cottoned on to it yet?
Of course, we don't really want them to, do we? They would only dish up a watered-down lowest common denominator version of folk music, that would resonate with the advertisers. And all us Mudcatters would endlessly moan about what a load of crap it is/was.

Back in the 80s, I used to do a weekly folk programme on local commercial radio in the UK. It had tremendous listening figures, second only to the drivetime programme. As soon as the requirement on commercial stations to provide 'community broadcasting' was removed, they immdediately axed it along with all the other specialist progs. There was a huge campaign to try and keep it, but to no avail. I said to the Station Controller, "What about this huge audience that abviously want this stuff?" He said, "Despite the large audience, it doesn't generate enough advertising revenue to justify keeping it. If you want to get together with like-minded people and start your own radio station, we will lease the studio and transmitter facilities to you. All you have to do is to sell enough advertising to pay for it!"
Well, I thought about it for 5 minutes, and then realised that I didn't want to be an Advertising Sales Executive, and didn't take it any further. (The Sales force at the time had no understanding of either the music or who the audience was, and had no clue how to target the advertsing accordingly.)
However, I suspect the same opportunities would still exist elsewhere today, if anybody wanted to proceed with such an idea. At the end of the day, it all comes down to being able to fund it.
Radio BritFolk have done something similar on the web, with limited success, and I'll bet they will tell you that funding is a continual problem.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 10:33 PM

Hmm! Thanks Graham, very interesting.

So, I suppose we've just got to be grateful for the offerings so far received from BBC4?

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:39 AM

Why? My telly only goes up to BBC2 (it's in colour though, and has 625 lines).

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:51 AM

Theres a huge gap you know Jim - between songs about ordinary folk and the folk themselves.

I took my parents who were from St Helens in Lancashire to see Gary and Vera Aspey's show one night in the 1970's. I liked Gary and Vera, and often saw their show. My parents were used to the folkscene and seeing me do gigs and all my folksinging friends - but they were genuinely apalled at the sight of a roomfull of middle class people laughing at someone who was portraying working class Lancashire men as boorish, drink fuelled and chauvinistic. A black American person seeing Jump Jim Crow had nothing on it.

Similarly I was a devoted Ewan and Peggy fan. Peggy paid me the compliment of putting one of my songs in NCS. One night I took a few blokes from the building trade to see their show. To a man they found Ewan's songs about working life absurd. One of them said, frankly this blokes never done a day's work in his life.

I was really pleased when I started working the Irish theme bars and I found so many Irish artists had warmed to their songs. I think what brought it home to me was hearing a mainstream Irish artist (Eleanor MacEvoy - I think) doing that song of Peggy's about an itinerant roadmenders wife talking to her child about Dad being away from home. I coulsd see that the song might have resonances in Ireland that we missed.

What I mean is - I was glad to see that they had connected somewhere other than a middle class folk audience. A prophet in his own land...or something.

I would like to see some form of folk song that the broad mass of English peole can relate to in my lifetime though. I don't hear anything much whenever I hear the preferred folk music of Radio 2 or BB2 television that will do the trick.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 02:21 AM

IMHO. Graham is right.
Firstly, I would forget Commercial Radio and TV (apart from the rare prog on the minority channels. eg, the excellent doc on Kathryn Tickell last year)
The one real attempt that Commercial Radio had was Jazz FM. Lots of cutting edge stuff at first.....consequence, no listeners, no income. Quick re-branding of station.
Classic FM has chopped up easy listening classical music into soundbites, complete with adverts.
So, in the UK, we are left with dear old Auntie Beeb.
Considering the huge range of Radio and TV programmes that they have to provide under the Royal Charter. We don't do that badly really.
I mean how much live Jazz do you see on TV?
Not to mention music like Bhangra?

Anyway, it doesn't really matter now that the Beeb has failed to get the license increase it needed. It is committed by Law to provide Digital services before the analogue Switch off, and that is rather costly.

There are going to be swingeing cutbacks soon, I predict, and I doubt if our little sideline will survive. Enjoy the likes of Kershaw, Duran, Late Junction, Mike Harding, The various BBC4 docs etc, while you can. (Hon mention to Simon Mayo, Jools Holland, and others)

Whilst working at the BBC (retired/redundant now!!!) It was obvious that there are a lot of people behind the scenes who would have loved to make programmes that we would appreciate.

Problem....Commissioning panels. All producers every year are asked to submit prog ideas. And over the years I've heard of some great ones, but, if the Network panel doesn't like it, it's binned.

Ah Well   Ralphie.

PS. Graham. I'm available for work now !!!!

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 02:52 AM

Considering the comments on this site that the Mike Harding show gets regarding the artists he plays on his radio programme, do you think a TV show would be any different? After three weeks we'd all be moaning that our fave folkies weren't getting any airtime and that Kate, Eliza, Martin, Sean, Show of Hands, etc were on every week.
Anyway, people who make TV programmes have no idea that folk music exists. How many times have you watched a documentary and thought "I know a cracking song that would fit there"

Gary Aspey used to tell people that they'd been offered TV shows but he'd turned them down. It uses the act up and if people had watched the programme they wouldn't get out of the hose and come to the live gigs.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Scrump
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 03:12 AM

Well, there's an opportunity here for someone to start a web-based Folk TV service. Any takers?... well, you never know.

Personally, I wouldn't complain if the BBC did show Rusby, Waterson-Carthy, Lakeman, SOH, etc., every week. Bloody sight better entertainment than any of the rubbish on there now.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 03:59 AM

WLD,
As you say, there is a gap between 'ordinary' folk' (whoever they are) and the folk themselves, though it wasn't always as wide as it is now. When I first started to go to clubs I was an apprentice electrician working on the docks in Liverpool and me and a friend, ( a warehouseman at the fruit market on Scotland Road) stumbled on The Spinners Club by accident.
At one time The Singers Club audience was a mix of working class people and others, and that only changed when the scene generally started to decline.
Some of Ewan and Peggy's songs never connected with the people they were writing about, but, from my experience, the people I was working with were never weaned off what was being fed to them/us by the media.
Having said this, songs like 'Freeborn Man', 'Thirty Foot Trailer', 'Manchester Rambler' and 'Dirty Old Town' seemed to ring bells (interesting thread on the latter at the moment).
I have to say that after thirty years in the building trade I have met very few, if any, house painters who have read 'The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists' or 'Confessions of an Irish Navvy'; I wonder how many miners read 'The Citadel', or textile workers, 'King Cotton' or 'Love On The Dole'.
I believe this is very much down to a failure on our part to sell our goods, also on the grip that the establishment has on our culture, rather than a comment on the goods themselves.
Jim Carroll
PS Which of your songs was inculded in NCS?

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 07:04 PM

Wild Colonial Guy. I wrote it when one of my pupils got locked up. It was a calypso, was trying to draw some kind of parallel between the muggers from deprived city areas and Bold Jack Donahoe or Duggan the original Wild Colonial Boy. It was my first published song and I was very proud to be in a songbook alongside Eric Bogle and Peggy Seeger, etc.

I don't suppose it was much good, but it was very generous spirited of the two of them to put it in there. It is something that sustained me, and I have never forgot their act of kindness.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 10:54 AM

WLD,
Just looked it up - nice song. I would have like to have heard it sung.
They never put songs in NCS out of generosity of spitit.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:14 AM

Very nice of you to say Jim.

I appreciate that.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Alec
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:20 AM

Going back to Ralphie's point about commisioning panels "Doctor Who" & "Strictly Come Dancing" (pretty much BBC1's most popular shows)
Both struggled to get acceptance from these panels both were recognised as prospective good programmes by individuals higher up the food chain.
Perhaps that is where folk afficianados should be concentrating their efforts?

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 01:18 AM

Hi Alec.
Agreed.
All I am saying is that a few programmes get under the radar, as far as the BBC is concerned. It has got a bit better since the inception of BBC4 on Digital.
And there will always be the odd "interesting" doc on Radio 4.
My only suggestion would be to praise them to the skies, when you hear something good. Send those E Mails...They are read, I can assure you.
Having worked at the Beeb all my career, I really can say that there are plenty of sympathetic producers within the organisation, with lots of great ideas.
I know that they would appreciate positive feedback.
No, of course there won't be a dedicated channel for our sort of music, but, in fact, instead of ghettoing trad music, I really like finding the odd Folkie (token or otherwise) in Radio 4 progs such as Womans Hour or Loose Ends.

Finally (getting off soap box).

Don't get on the back of the only UK broadcaster that at least tries.

Can't see Capital Radio playing Sam Larner or Fred Jordan.....Can you?

Or Channel 4 replacing Big Brother with Celebrity Folk Brother!!!
(Spare us!!)

Happy Days all

Ralphie

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:32 AM

I don't suppose Fred and Sam were actually besieged with offers when they were young enough to enjoy them.

The inherent problem with this present system, and really why we've got to radically change it is this:-

1) the paucity of coverage means that whoever does become one of the favoured few whose music does get covered - becomes some sort of 'star' in the folkworld. And folkmusic isn't about celebs and stars - its about the creative effort of a great nation.

2) the music is dying by starvation. the only music being heard is that 5% that is 'right on' with middle class folk fans, who have imposed some false notion of an archaic tradition, rather than that enthusiasm for acoustic music and songwriting that cheap Asian manufactured musical instruments has made possible for nearly everybody in England. We are now approaching the second generation of artists who never got heard. Morally its not right.

3) America has managed it. Local radio stations, local tv stations, specialised record shops.....Why can't we? I'm not saying America has got it perfect, but it seems to have more infrastructure with about the half the amount of popular support - they don't have folk clubs like us, for instance

We didn't give up on the BBC - it gave up on us. It walked away from the folk club movement, with its hands clapped over its ears saying..... nasty common people.

Firt of all the only people allowed on were arists who embraced elements of showbiz like the Spinners and the Corries. Now it tells us we've got to be the sort of 'right on' almost popstar types who wouldn't disgrace ourselves in Later with Jules Holland.

The BBC needs to f--k off out to some folk clubs and start listening, instead of setting the agenda from a position of total ignorance.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Alec
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:48 AM

To illustrate WeeLittleDrummer's point my guitar is Chinese.
As is my uke.
As is at least one of my harmonica's (another is Japanese)
My Metalophone is Ethiopian.
I use them because I can afford them
However I do also feel that in order in order to survive & prosper Folk requires a large audience which the B.B.C. is best placed to access.
Consumption & production need not be mutually exclusive (indeed the former can inspire the latter,did in my case)
Ballroom & Latin dancing are currently undergoing a major revival in this Country.The B.B.C. have made a major contribution to this without creating a star system.
That's what I'd like to see happen wih Folk.
I strongly suspect we all would.
Does that sound naive?

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:15 AM

Right on Alec!

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:20 AM

Just to make the point:-

Think of the big hitters who never got their hour on TV:-

Gerry Lockran
Nic Jones
Derek Brimsone
Downes and Beer
Brownsville Banned
Rosie Hardman
Roger Brooks
Noel Murphy

add your own names. It remains a national disgrace.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Compton
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:49 PM

Maybe I'm wrong...and maybe my memory fades me...but didn't the BBC sponsor Cambridge Volk Festival last year? and weren't there several transmissions?

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 04:04 AM

Yes and Pebble Mill at One and they once had The Spinners on there.

Indeed its just sour grapes from people who lacked star quality.

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Baz Khinda
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:13 AM

Hi, My show isn't called Roots! It's the Baz Khinda show and plays mainly Asian music!

With regards to folk I agree that more should be done to preserve and promote folk music, where and when it'll happen I don't know... and P.S. I was born in Birmingham, Raised in Newcastle and have to say I'm proud to be a Geordie!!

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 01 May 07 - 10:55 AM

Well, GOLF is on TV! So, there should be room for mod folk, right? Both are equally banal and relaxing to watch.

There was folk on TV a while back. Pete Seeger's fine TV show, with wonderful traditional and revival guests every week, comes immediately to mind.

Watch for NUTHILL PRODUCTIONS eight-hour series of programs that will be around one day fairly soon. The series is in production now!!
Google 'em and see for yourselves.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Why is there never Folk on TV?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 01 May 07 - 11:12 AM

What we want is someone to set up a folkie pirate station.