nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:12 PM

I first heard it in the 1950s here in Aus. for what it's worth.

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: GUEST, Jim Hancock
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 07:07 AM

Thanks for the link Malcolm, I believe that is indeed the tune I learned, although I haven't sung it since the sixties and somewhere in the little grey cells the more generally accepted tune has now become the default. It wasn't one of my favourites at the time, too sloppy for an 8 year old lad.

All the best

Jim Hancock

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:08 AM

sorry ,I thought o Carolan said it was FRANCES.if itwas Mary [im sure your right]that strengthens the case,as Mary it was, that popularised in Ireland, a similiar arrangement of nic jones arrangement for guitar of Annachie Gordon.
Nic Jones deserves a mention [in my opinion],
Hes unable to play,and should be given credit for the colossal contribution he made to folk music.
His guitar arrangements were brilliant,and he is sorely MISSED.

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:57 AM

That was (a very young) MARY Black on Come West... this week.

Regards

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:53 AM

please seethe thread, come west along the road.

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:52 AM

The reason I asked the question was that in last nights COME WEST ALONG THE ROAD,FRANCES BLACK performed a version that reminded me of Nic Jones version[except that it was not nearly so good].
Nicholas Carolan asked the question,why was it so popular in the seventies,now I knEwthe coppers recorded it,BUT Nics influence at the time on the folk scene was colossal,and Mary Black had recorded a verion of AnnACHIE GORDON,using a very similiar backing to Nics.
Then along comes the sister, Frances, on Come west along the road,doing an inferior arrangement [ in my opinion]But Clearly influenced by N ic Jones version.
MR O CAROLANS remark was aimed at IRELAND[why was it so popular in ireland ]. so the answer must be the copper family and Nic Jones[ as the Blacks popularised some of Nics material in Ireland]IT was clearly him thay had been listening too NOT THE COPPERS[ although without the Coppers It wouldnt have been popularised in the first place.
Thirdly it appears in a very popular book SONGS POPULAR IN IRELAND.
But the give away is that the Blacks[Who were very popular in Ireland ,chose gutar arrangements that were influenced by Nic Jones,[Rather than CLOSE HARMONY]although not as good.
I am sorry I didnt phrase the thread well,It should read did NIC JONES popularise this song in IRELAND.

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:18 AM

As Malcolm points out, it was without doubt the 1971 issue of the 4-LP set and book A Song For Every Season that widely popularised this song. It had been sung by Bob Copper's great uncle Tom and the family can thus date it to the late 1830s. Henry Burstow of Horsham also had a very similar version in his repertoire which indicates that the source was a broadside.

Following the Leader release, the song was taken up by everybody and their dog, the most notable being Fred Jordan, the Shropshire farmworker, and later, Bandoggs. The Nic Jones live version on In Search Of is there because the Bandoggs one is obviously unavailable for the usual Harrogate reasons.

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 12:43 AM

In Gale Huntington's "Songs The Whalerman Sang" pub 1964 he prints a version (with music) "very similar to those that were collected from the journals (the Cortes 1847, the Euphrasia 1849 & the Minervat Smythe 1852) & that they all follow the popular parlor version of the song very closely". He continues to say "The Rose of Allendale" was verypopular all through the 19th century, & will be found in many song books.
He then has a printed version (no music) of Mary's Cot & continues "But in the journal of the Nauticon of 1848, there is this little gem, 'Mary's Cot' which surely is a traditional version of 'The Rose of Allendale'. He then follows with a printed version of "The Beacon Light" from the journal of The Frances Henrietta 1835 & says nothing about this last one though there seems that there might be a connection to the others.

Mary's Cot has been touch on before

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: Bugsy
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 09:53 PM

I think the best version I ever heard was done by Steve Turner.

Toodyay Folk Festival, Western Australia 1983.


Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:39 PM

Blimey, Jim, I hadn't realised that you were that much older than me! If you learned the old songbook tune, though, it will have been noticeably different from the Coppers' set. I put up a link to a midi of the original tune in at least one of the many earlier threads, but probably nobody will bother to look at them; so I'll add it here as well:

Rose of Allendale (original tune with piano accompaniment)

To address some earlier comments: the song's origins are not in doubt (see, as I suggested, earlier discussions, where more detail is provided). I don't believe that Martin Carthy ever recorded it, and I've never heard him sing it; though he may well have done at times, I doubt if he really figures in the equation here.

Peter Kennedy recorded the Coppers singing it at some point, but the best known recording from the family would be Bill Leader's, released as part of the A Song for Every Season double LP in 1971; with Charles Jefferys and S[idney] Nelson properly credited as writers.

I may as well note, while I'm here, that Dave and I cross-posted, so neither of us had seen the other's message. The original form of the song was popular for nearly a century, but had pretty much disappeared from popular song books by the time of the Second World War (perhaps Jim's teacher was using an old song book?) The Copper's form of words is very close to the great number of published texts from the C19 and early C20; but the modified melody they used is distinctly their own and I can't imagine anyone who has heard both mistaking it for Nelson's original, though of course the connection is very obvious.

Recordings exist of the great traditional singer Fred Jordan singing this, but it was one of the songs that he learned via the folk clubs rather than from the tradition; again, it's obviously the Coppers-adapted tune.

Jefferys (sometimes spelled Jeffries) and Nelson also wrote 'Mary of Argyle', another song frequently assumed (wrongly) to be Scottish. Nelson and Thomas Haynes Bayly were responsible for another song often found in oral currency, 'The Captain and His Whiskers'.

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: GUEST, Jim Hancock
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:11 PM

My dad used to sing it (late 40's / 50's, that's the decades not his age). I learned it at school in Miss Welfare's singing class in 1954. So I can say with conviction that it was popular in Grassmoor, (a small mining village in Derbyshire)and sung regularly.
Of course folk music hadn't been invented then and these were just songs people sang.

All the best

Jim Hancock

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

The information I have is that its a Victorian parlour ballad circa 1841/2 that was 'collected' by whichever Copper ancestor was around then . It was one of the songs that was in 'Grandfather's' book in mid 1920's and was collected from Bob and Ron in about 1960 by Martin Carthy , which got it out to the Folk World . Wether Nic got it first or not I dont know , but Martin recorded it fairly early .

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allenda
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 07:23 PM

Hardly likely.

It has always been extremely popular and the Library of Congress has four broadsides, from three from New York and one from Baltimore. The Bodleian has 16 different copies. These would all be 19th Century.

Mary Black first recorded it in 1982.

Nic Jones sang it as part of his act at some point but I believe the first recording by him solo was on "In Search of Nic Jones" and that was 1998 although the "live" recording had obviously been done a long time before.

It was also on the Bandoggs Album where Nic tells us he got it from the Copper Family. It is in the Copper Family Songbook.

Actually I think to seek out who "popularised" a song is not necessarily a fruitful exercise. As this shows. All the versions listed above are virtually identical and derived from the broadsheets.

However each to his own.........

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 07:22 PM

Mary Black learned it (via her brother Shay, I think) from Nic Jones. Nic learned it from the Copper family and it had been in his repertoire for quite a while when he eventually recorded it with Bandoggs in 1978. Although he certainly contributed to its revival, I'd give principal credit to the Coppers, who remade a once-popular but latterly largely forgotten parlour song into something worth reviving.

I have never heard a recording of it (and I've heard a great many over the years; everybody and his or her dog seems to have had a stab at it) that didn't very obviously derive at one remove or more from the Coppers; they changed the tune in a particularly recognisable way, and moved it into an interesting compound time signature; which, unfortunately, has largely been ironed out into a bland Country-and-Western kind of rhythm by a long succession of people over the last twenty years or so.

See previous threads on this song (links above) for details of the writers, and the original form of the tune.

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 07:02 PM

I have a tape of the Corries doing this one that dates back in the early 80s.
I also have Mary Black doing it, and I prefer her version.

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allenda
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 06:20 PM

Best job I've heard of this one is Holdstock and MacLeod, with
Dick Holdstock's wonderfully 'chiseled' lead on the verses.

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:39 PM

Saw an old TV recording of Mary Black singing this, with one of the Fureys and Davy Arthur accompanying her, tonight. Mid 80's or so. Nicholas Carolan, of the Irish Traditional Music Archive, noted its 19 C. origins and enduring popularity. Mentioned author and composer, I think.

Regards

Subject: RE: nic jones - did he popularise 'Rose of Allendale'?
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:30 PM

You mean lately? The last time around? Why?
Surely, from early 19th century accounts, it was extremely popular from the time it was written.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: nic jones
From: The Doctor
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:16 PM

His recording of it appears on 'In Search of Nic Jones'

Subject: nic jones
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:03 PM

I believe nic jones was responsible for popularising the Rose of Allendale,can anyone confirm if it was, as I think, in his repertoire.DickMiles