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Self-Promotion on Mudcat
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Subject: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Azizi Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:24 AM The purpose of this thread is to discuss the appropriateness & efficacy of self-promotion on Mudcat. Do you think it's ever appropriate & useful to promote oneself on Mudcat threads? If so, what are your thoughts on how, when, why this could be done, and who could do it? Thanks for your input. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Azizi Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:28 AM Before, I share my answer to the questions that I posed, here are definitions I'm using for 'appropriateness', 'efficacy', and 'self-promotion': http://www.answers.com/topic/appropriate gives this definition for 'appropriateness' "Suitable for a particular person, condition, occasion, or place; fitting". And http://www.answers.com/topic/efficacygives this definition of & autonyms for 'efficacy': "efficiency; productiveness; Antonyms: failure, inefficacy, inefficiency, unproductiveness, uselessness, weakness". That same website gives the definition of 'self-promotion' as "Promotion, including advertising and publicity, of oneself effected by oneself" http://www.answers.com/topic/self-promotion |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Sooz Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:29 AM I like to know what everyone else is doing - it's part of the whole. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Jim Lad Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:31 AM Not too keen on that. Changes the whole concept of blogging. I don't mind the odd swapping of URLs (I'll show you mine if you show me yours) but nothing more than that. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: freda underhill Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:42 AM mudcat is a big community and many threads promote the gigs, sessions/ concerts/CDs and songs of musicians, whether they're catters or not. that is part of what mudcat's all about. freda |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Sttaw Legend Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:12 AM Azizi I would not dream of promoting our band "harriWattsband" gigs on Mudcat....hope to see you there * Saturday 20 January – "Tigers Inn" – Lairgate – Beverley * Monday 22 January – "Garbutts Café Bar" - Princes Avenue – Hull * Thursday 25 January – "music exchange" with Mas Y Mas – Dorchester Hotel – Beverley Road – Hull * Monday 5 February – "Sleepers Café Bar" – Newland Avenue - Hull * Monday 19 March - "Sleepers Café Bar" – Newland Avenue - Hull |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Azizi Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:21 AM This post is the impetus for this thread: Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mistah Rabbit Patting rhyme From: GUEST Date: 10 Jan 07 - 11:20 PM Thank you Q Some of Axix's posting are more than a smidge-bit A-centric. thread.cfm?threadid=97895&messages=25#1932875 Re: Lyr Add: Mistah Rabbit Patting rhyme -snip- I'm taking the liberty to re-post this comment because I consider it to be pertinent to my response to the questions I posed in my initial post to this thread. Let me first state that I believe that the "Guest" who wrote that post could have been either a Mudcat member posting anonymously or a non-member. I did not comment about that post in that Mistah Rabbit thread because I didn't [and don't] think it was appropriate for me to do so in that thread. However, I want to congratulate whoever posted that comment for crafting a good example of a coded message. After all, the word "A-centric' could mean several things. When I first read that comment, I thought that "Guest" meant "afro-centric". http://www.answers.com/topic/afrocentrism gives this meaning for that adjective: "Centered or focused on Africa or African peoples, especially in relation to historical or cultural influence". Yep. That's me [on Mudcat and elsewhere] at least it is me much of the time. However, upon some reflection, I thought 'Maybe when "Guest" wrote "A-centric" she or he was thinking about the word 'eccentric'". One of the definitions for "eccentric" that http://www.answers.com/topic/eccentric gives is "1. Departing from a recognized, conventional, or established norm or pattern." Hmmm. Perhaps because a synonym for 'ecentric' is 'strange', I prefer to think of myself as 'eclectic'. http://www.answers.com/topic/eclectic indicates that the adjective 'eclectic' means: givf 1. Selecting or employing individual elements from a variety of sources, systems, or styles: 2. Made up of or combining elements from a variety of sources -snip- Yep. I'm proud to say that I'm eclectic. Or at least, I consider myself to be electic. You may ask can a person be afrocentric and eclectic at the same time. In my opinion, Yes a person can be afrocentric and [at the same time or at different times] also select and employ individual elments from a variety of sources, systems, or styles-not limited to those from Africa and the African Diaspora. Since my focus was on the topic of the Mistah Rabbit thread, it wasn't until later on that it occurred to me that "Guest" may have misspelled my name on purpose, and that "Guest" may have been alluding to my name [which after all begins with the letter "A"] when she or he wrote that I was "A-centric" and meant that I was being "a smidge bit" too self-promoting. It should be noted {for those who have dial up Internet connections and may not want to waste time & effort visiting that Mistah Rabbit thread for to check this} that prior to "Guest" posting that comment, there had been 7 comments to that thread. Three of the comments were posted by Q {that thread's starter}, and 2 by me. My first post to that thread contained no "I", "me" or 'my' sentences. However, my second post to that thread included a number of "I" sentences in which I shared my experiences and thoughts about the topic under discussion. And because I considered it to be pertinent to the discussion, I also provided a link in that Mistah Rabbit thread to another Mudcat thread, one-by happenchance, that I had started. ** I believe that there are many occassions when self-promotion on Mudcat threads is appropriate and efficacious [or whatever the right form of that word is]. However, when I share my experiences with and thoughts about certain subjects of Mudcat threads, I usually do so not as a means of self-promotion but as one would do during the normal course of a conversation, that is to provide a context for, to add information, to validate, and/or to qualify one's comments. That said, there are times that I have posted a hyperlink to my website http://www.cocojams.com/ as a means of promoting that site. However, I believe that the times I have done so have been appropriate and efficacious. Of course, "Guest" or Guests or Members may not agree. And they have the right to disagree. ** The beauty of a coded message such as that one which "Guest" 10 Jan 07 - 11:20 PM wrote in that Mistah Rabbit thread is that it might mean multiple things at the same time. The analytic {Virgo rising/Mars in Virgo} side of me says "Kudos" to "Guest" for the way you crafted that comment. I've taken that post as a compliment. I made no comment about this post in the |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Azizi Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:27 AM Sorry for that cut and paste mess at the bottom of my last post to this thread. It could have been worse. I could have left a curse word or two... [Just kidding. Cursing's not usually my style. And, after all, why would I want to curse at someone who complimented me?] |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Folkiedave Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:29 AM Well, that was really interesting. Of course it is OK to post some self-interest stuff, gigs etc. on Mudcat. Or is discussion not self-interest? Dave |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: George Papavgeris Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:36 AM If it is acceptable and appropriate to advertise in newspapers, on websites and other public media, I think it is also acceptable and appropriate to do the same in a forum, especially a related one. As for "self" advertising, I see no reason to differentiate this from "third party" advertising - indeed, I think self advertising is in many ways more honest than getting someone else to do it for you. Efficacy of advertising on Mudcat varies depending on geography. In some parts of the UK in particular, where there are many mudcatters living in comparative proximity, it is very useful indeed. Personally, I have much to thank Mudcat (and self advertising on it) for; it helped me get my music known further afield; it helped me meet some wonderful people, who came to my gigs when I happened to be in their area, because they read my advertisements here; it got me extra gigs; it sold me CDs; it gave me ideas for songs (like "Baba", which was first published here); and it helped me keep a sense of perspective, to keep it real as it were, because in such a community which is free with its criticisms as well as its praises it helped me to keep my head size small and to avoid "believing my own promotion" too much. There is a "politeness rule" (only valid in certain cultures), which would deem self advertising as equivalent to bragging or showing off, and therefore shameful. I consider this rule to have no more international validity than having to spoon soup away from you - an artefact. Typically, the Dutch would have no problems with self promotion, while the Belgians next door would recoil in horror at the thought. Third party praise will always carry more weight than self promotion. But that is not to say that self promotion is either inappropriate or non-productive. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: alanabit Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:47 AM To add to what George said, I think I would be very disappointed if say, Reggie Miles, or George any other Mudcatter were to gig in Köln without telling me. A large part of the membership here is made up of performers. I think it is perfectly valid for them to let us know what they are doing and when they are going to be near us. Friends tell each other what they are doing. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:55 AM to be honest, I wish more people would tell us about their gigs and albums - on a couple of occasions I have missed stuff because I didn't get enough notice. If you're not interested - you just don't open that thread. On the other hand you might find out something that is really good - somebody might turn you onto an artist you hadn't heard before - its not everybody who is content to listen to the top ten folk albums of radio2. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: GUEST,Simon Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:00 AM If multi-national companies can advertise, and say how wonderful their product is, then it is entirely right that individuals are entitled to say the same thing about themselves accordingly. Often with a worthier product, and a better excuse than making money. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Azizi Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:10 AM Apart from starting a Mudcat thread which advertising gigs or music/cultural related products [or posting about such gigs and products within an already existing Mudcat threads], I'm wondering what your position is on folks on Mudcat including "I" and "my" statements in their posts, or for that matter, folks starting Mudcat threads. Do you consider these actions to be forms of self-promotion? And if they are forms of self-promotion, are they acceptable forms? Or does their acceptablity depend on when, how, where, and who [uses "I" or "my" statements and/or starts Mudcat threads]? |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: George Papavgeris Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:15 AM Saying "I" or "my", if that is what is meant, is more honest than anything else, like "a friend says..." or the royal "one"... |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: gnu Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:36 AM Fill yer boots. Just entitle the thread to that effect. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Azizi Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:58 AM gnu, sorry I don't understand what you meant by your 13 Jan 07 - 06:36 AM post. If you care to explain that comment, I'd appreciate it. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Tim theTwangler Date: 13 Jan 07 - 07:06 AM Err I thought the whole point of being on here was to keep abreast of other peoples thoughts views and doings. It is after all just a means of comunication. What else could we do on here. Every discussion is about self promotion in that you are putting your own veiws on a subject in an attempt to promote them to others. Every time you start a thread,on what ever subject. You are saying I am here and I think that this subject is worthy of discussion. That is before you give your own veiws on whatever subject. Went to Market Raisen FC last night whole evening was great and heard a Great cover of a Mr Papavgeris song by Stitherum. With Freinds like these. Thank you for loaning it out to them mate was lovely to hear again. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: George Papavgeris Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:00 AM It belongs to you and to them as much as to me, Tim. Azizi, I think gnu meant "self-promote to your heart's content, just as long as you do so in threads that are appropriately titled, so others can skip them if they want". |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Alan Day Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:11 AM Some artists blatently promote their gigs and CDs for that matter ( I can get a slapped wrist for that)on Mudcat, but if it is of no interest it moves quickly down the chart and disappears so therefore these forums are self censoring. Al |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: aussiebloke Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:15 AM If you got it, flaunt it - bring it on... Cheers all aussiebloke |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Azizi Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:17 AM Thanks for that explanation, George. Btw, I found your 13 Jan 07 - 05:36 AM comments about national differences in self-promotion to be very interesting. And being afrocentric, I then thought of the ways Black people throughout the African Diaspora include self-promotion in their songs and stage names as reflected in Calypso, Blues, Jazz, Reggae, and Rap music among other musical genres. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Mo the caller Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:33 AM Yes I read the 'Axix' comment on the Mr Rabbit thread but it was way up the thread by the time I came to it so I didn't comment. I, from my UK, white, perspective, value the chance to glimpse a different world. I think its good that Azizi gives background details so that we see where she is coming from (I've tried to learn from that). No, you are not 'too big for your boots' Azizi.(was that what gnu meant)? I've found lots of interesting things from ads and links on Mudcat. If no-one started threads what would be left? |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:35 AM Both the comment to which you refer, Azizi, and the one just above this posting, are yet more good arguments for ignoring any postings by some entity which just calls itself "Guest". Taking a name or a handle is an eminently modest request. Anybody who does not do so shows clearly how much value we should give to his, her, or its postings. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:37 AM Of course I don't mean the posting by Mo, but the one by "Guest". |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Charley Noble Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:44 AM "Self-Promotion" by itself doesn't achieve much on Mudcat unless it is reinforced with more interaction with other members and guests. I'm much more likely to follow up such a post if the poster displays or has displayed more of his or her interests. Then there is the "quality" factor. Some Mudcat folks are just better at what they do, or appeal more to me than others! Then some Mudcat folks really get better over time, while others self-destruct. Azizi- I often find myself intrigued by your posts. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Hand-Pulled Boy Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:45 AM I agree with Sttaw Legend. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:50 AM I'm for self promotion, even commercial self promotion, if it is music related. Otherwise, I'd recommend restraint. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: number 6 Date: 13 Jan 07 - 10:02 AM Why not. Even if it isn't music related. If a Catter has a great spaghetti sauce they want to let us know about ... then, let us know about it. I wouldn't worry about the Mudcat being spammed with serious business's promoting their product via threads and posts. biLL |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Jan 07 - 10:03 AM I think all this is silly. Have you heard Alba's voice? Its absolutely terrific. I only heard it by merest chance cos I was checking out katlaughing's website, and Alba had a song on there. You can't go through life hoping for happy accidents. If you are producing music, theres no point in being reticent about it. If it is something you need to be reticent about - someone will tell you. The public can be relied on to do that, I have noticed. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Azizi Date: 13 Jan 07 - 10:23 AM In my opinion, the motive and not the act itself is what's most important. For instance, I don't start threads and I don't comment in threads to get attention, though the act of starting threads and commenting in threads certainly can bring attention. I start threads and comment in threads because I wanting to share information and conversation with other folks or ask questions to learn more or to seek clarification about a subject. I was going to say that "people don't start threads or coment on threads to get attention", but I realized that I should only speak for myself as I don't know what motivates other folks. That said, good attention can be good for the soul and I can take bad attention or leave it. ** Charley, I hope intriguing is a good thing. :o) |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:29 AM I am always interested in what's going on in the music field. Self-promo is fine with me because I can learn who is doing what, where and how. I think most of us here on Mudcat can cut through advertising hype and get to the root of what the artist is all about. There is a great degree of sophistication about folk music on this website and it doesn't hurt if artists want to promote themselves. I think it's appropriate because without their blowing their own horns, who's going to know about them? I think that Mudcat serves a purpose here of information about new artists and their music. Frank |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: artbrooks Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:34 AM I worked for the (US) government for over 30 years, and tried self-promotion as a potential career path. I quickly discovered that (except for longevity increases) promotion was in the hands of other people. I did finally manage to promote myself to the position of retiree, and now I can blow my own horn all I want...as long as the doors and windows are shut. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Rasener Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:40 AM I wouldn't dream of promoting Market Rasen Folk Club. After all whats the point. You put hours of work in organsing and getting many performers to appear, so why would you want to tell anybody and why would you want to get people to come and see them.. So I am not going to do that. Instead i will just mention that Jez Lowe & Kate Bramley will be at Market Rasen Folk Club on Saturday January 20th 2007. I suddenly have a few more tickets available due to cancellation. If you don't want to read the above, you can always have a look at the website Market Rasen Folk Club |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 13 Jan 07 - 12:03 PM We have a Mudcat Market where some have listed their crafts. I don't know how up-to-date it is, though. We also have a Mudcatters' CDs Permathread. I think sometimes newbies can go a little overboard in making sure everyone knows of their efforts/websites/etc. but eventually they seem to calm down a bit and life goes on. (I am not talking of "welcoming" threads, but more signing every post with a link to their site, etc. Nothing wrong with it, it just wears thin if done too often, IMO.) |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: katlaughing Date: 13 Jan 07 - 12:21 PM P.S. Forgot to say "Thanks!" to weelittledrummer. I'll be sure Alba sees your compliment. I appreciate it as well. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: gnu Date: 13 Jan 07 - 12:26 PM Thanks, George 13 Jan 07 - 09:00 AM... spot on. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Scrump Date: 13 Jan 07 - 01:20 PM I don't see any problem with "self-promotion" of CDs or gigs on Mudcat, providing they're not too commercially 'in yer face' ("BUY! BUY! BUY!") or done too often by the same person (which would amount to spam). Wish I had a forthcoming gig to advertise (I had one last Wednesday, but no point in mentioning it now!) |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Jan 07 - 02:56 PM I think that if you use Mudcat to promote your work (within reason), that's a wonderful thing and people will respond positively to that. If you misuse this community to promote yourself, that's another matter. If responses are negative, perhaps it's time for introspection. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Georgiansilver Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:01 PM Just another old sour grapes thread...when are people going to learn that it matters not what people advertise or promote..you have a choice....read it or don't read it! Go to the gig or don't go! Go to the Club or don't go!...what the heck? Do what you wanna do and leave others to get on with what they want....and if they want to advewrtise it for free...anywhere...what is the problem? |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Anniecat Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:50 PM First of all,I am not Anniecat---I am a burglar who has broken in and is using her computer to try and hack into Folk on Tap .Actually, I don"t see a problem with anything about self-promotion on Mudcat.-For example, George P. is a brilliant songwriter & an emotive performer,who brought tears to my eyes at Sidmouth . So I KNOW that George is Testes Canis----but there might be people out there,Mudcats even, who do NOT know that,so if George ever wanted to use Mudcats as a medium for some publicity, then that"s FINE with me. Bubblyrat The Burglar........ |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: John Hardly Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:56 PM no way |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Georgiansilver Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:12 PM WOW I really love that big pot at the top...could give that houseroom...but it would never get here at a reasonable price and intact.... |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: catspaw49 Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:39 PM Ya' know John Hardly, if I were going to promote someone like you did with that link, I'd pick a truly fine artisan instead of some 2-bit hack of a half-assed potter like that guy. Geez.........What shoddy work! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Georgiansilver Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:05 PM spaw..you aint got no sense of recognition of good works boy! Them pots is good tackle. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: John Hardly Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:26 PM "I'd pick a truly fine artisan instead of some 2-bit hack of a half-assed potter like that guy." I don't even know who that guy is. I just picked a random potter from the far reaches of the internet as a "for instance". If I was going to promote a potter, the only real potter I know is that BWL guy. By all accounts, he's a full-assed potter. |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Dan Schatz Date: 13 Jan 07 - 07:10 PM What is the line between being a community and self-promotion? If Kendall, for example, has a new CD out, I want to know, because Kendall is my friend and it's a major event for him. (Kendall, when's that new CD coming out, anyway?) If people on Mudcat have asked about my CD (expected out in Spring of 2007), why wouldn't it be appropriate to let folks know via Mudcat? Now, what would NOT be appropriate is for me to log in as a guest and review my CD (one would hope positively) while pretending to be someone else. Dan Schatz |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Jan 07 - 07:38 PM Well, Dan, it would also NOT be appropriate for you to start six threads advertising your CD, and another twelve threads directing people to your advertising. What's objectionable is egotism. We used to see a lot of that from pseudo-folk singer-songwriters who used to post lengthy self-praise blurbs on the links page. That's why we had to start reviewing links before accepting them. That being said, when are you going to come out with a CD? I really enjoy your singing. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: GUEST,riverboat annie Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:27 AM Well, someone took my perfectly legitimate request to explain "African Diaspora" off the thread so I will explain it myself for those who may not be familiar with the concept. "The term diaspora, describes the experience of people who, through slavery, colonialism, imperialism, and migration, have been forced to leave their native lands." (Funai 1998, 417) as quoted by Black feminist Patricia Hill Collins from Black Feminist Thought: Knowledge, Consciousness, and The Politics of Empowerment....a must read for anyone interested in understanding where Azizi is coming from. back to my riverboat now....(the cloneheads are too overzealous for me)
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Self-Promotion on Mudcat From: Jim Lad Date: 14 Jan 07 - 01:45 AM Ok! Guess I was wrong. Self promotion is apparently a part of what mudcat is all about. Having said that: go to http://jimbrannigan.com and fill your boots. All downloads are free. (even though my friends think I'm nuts) Music is for sharing and that's what makes me happy. |
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