dance: Strip the Willow

Subject: Strip the Willow
From: Herge
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:19 AM

Hi
Our caller instructs dancers to turn in strip the willow 'hand to hand' as opposed to linked 'elbow to elbow' - this seems to confuse some dancers new to the dance, who only seem to get it when they start to link arms. I know with most things there is no right or wrong way about traditional music and dance, but would welcome your views.

Herge

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:27 AM

Maybe the caller should explain that the dance in question will use hand to hand or link arms procedure. Can't really see why it should confuse the new to teh dance people, if the caller takes time to explain. I sometimes think that some callers do not allow for the beginners and concentrate on the more advanced dancers. I haver seen that occur and it does nothing to enhance the callers skills. All I saw was people complaining to each other that the caller wasn't very clear on what to do.
I have also seen quite a number of callers who take account of all levels.

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:30 AM

there's nothing wrong with a bit of confusion at a ceilidh unless you belong to the "Folk Police" it can add a lot of fun to the event and stop it becoming too rigid and stuffy (if you can't laugh at selves it's a sad world)

Gerry

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:31 AM

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:33 AM

That should read "yourselves" (fingers faster than the brain this morning

Gerry

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:14 AM

I reckon the most important thing is to know the difference between left hand and right hand.

IMHO to be able to do this is in inverse proportion to intelligence.

So again IMHO don't call for an audience of Ph.D's without establishing that they know this.

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Alan Day
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:16 AM

Hand to hand turns Herge requires greater room between the dancers, in a small hall this will limit the amount of sets you could have.
It is also considerably more dangerous as the dancers would be turning at a greater speed with only hand contact.One slip and it's a hospital case.I think your caller is wrong.
Al

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:54 AM

I start by asking them to hold their hands out flat, thumbs pointing at each other... the one making the letter 'L' is the left hand!

Doesn't allow for dyslexics, though...!

I would have thought strip the willow didn't work quite as well at arm's length, unless the music was slower than usual.

Often the reason for a 'correct' way of doing things is simply that it helps the dance to flow better. Getting everything horribly wrong is so much more fun, though!

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:08 AM

But it's more fun turning elbow to elbow.

DC

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:25 AM

I would favour not hand to hand nor elbow to elbow but hand to elbow (with the thumb kept away from the inner part of other person's elbow).

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:27 AM

Strange, I haven't seen it done either hand-to-hand or elbow-to-elbow. I have seen and danced it hand-to-elbow, so you cup the next person's elbow with your hand, and your two fore-arms lay together. This is clearly an intermediate stage.

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:39 AM

Sorry - hand to elbow is the way I prefer it, too - forgot to add that!

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Alba
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 08:36 AM

That's the way I was taught Strip the Willow.
Hand to Elbow
Ah, now all those those School Christmas Dance memories comes flooding back aghhhhh:)

Jude

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: terrier
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:11 PM

Hand to hand ok with lots of room and a slow dance (i.e. Scottish Stratsphey) but try and dance a Northumbrian style STW with a long arm hold and it's about as dangerous as helicopter rotor blades. I shudder to think of all the nasty accidents I've seen over the years due to incorrect dance protocol. Enjoying yourself is one thing but being damn stupid defeats the object of 'social' dance. Callers should know better!!!

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:36 PM

I'd agree hand - to - elbow for experienced dancers who know not to grip. But that thumb can hurt! So I think I'll stick with the link elbows explanation, and let those who know the other use it.

As for dance accidents, the thing I stress is spacing. Any dance with a "cast off and up through the arch" can leave the top set well spread and other sets cramped.
I call "Barley Reel" as an easier strip the willow dance for beginners (Lines forward and back, cross, F&B, cross back; 1s double strip the w to bottom and make arch; others castoff, up through arch, swing.)
Having seen a broken arm in a crowded bottom set I always tell the top set where there set should end (no further than that chair..)

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:57 PM

Banjo Flower I couldn't agree more - it is very funny and I love it.

However I took 12 people to a Ceilidh and the caller took no account of them being beginners and consequently they didn't enjoy the evening,becuase they were left behind becuase he didn't take the effort to explain properly.

It wasn't your band I hasten to say :-)

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 01:34 PM

Many years ago when we were beginners we walked out of an EFDSS dance because the caller kept saying we 're going to do so and so it's such a well known dance so I won't bother calling it

Gerry

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 01:58 PM

Gerry
Exactly. Sometimes it is easy to assume that your audience knows it, which in my opinion is bad mistake.

I still think the funniest was when Eamon did the reindeer dance with over 100 people . Never laughed so much in all my life.

Les

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 02:52 PM

Arms linked allows for greater centripetal force when the aim is to get the girl's feet to leave the ground (as it often seems to be).

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 03:14 PM

Cluin, that shouldn't be the aim even in a basket.
If you try to get the girls to lose their footing in a strip the willow nobody will enjoy the dance.

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Marje
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 03:23 PM

I can't quite envisage how the girl's feet could leave the ground when she's just linking one arm with a partner for a couple of twirls - are you sure you're still talking about Strip the Willow?

I think the hand-to-hand method is more common in Scottish dancing (at least the version favoured by the RSCDS), while the linked elbows is more common in English ceildh dancing. In my experience, RSCDS dancers are very controlled and graceful, and will not allow the centripetal force to gain momentum, whereas English ceilidh dancers will go with the flow and end up like whirling dervishes if they're not closely linked at the elbow.

But all of this is small beer compared with the main principle, which is "right to your partner, left to the side, and don't grab anyone the same gender as yourself" ("gender" being the one adopted for that particular dance, which may not be immediately obvious to the twirling stripper in the middle).


Marje

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:06 PM

It helps if the people on the side pay attention and hold out their left arm at the right moment (it also helps if they are ready to move, so that the person in the middle doesn't have to heave them round).

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:08 PM

I'll shut up now and stop being so bossy, sorry.

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:10 PM

Yes, I agree with Marje and Topsie.
But that's the "official version", and when I've explained that (when calling Barley Reel, to beginners) I tell them that, as long as they finish at the other end of the set, any variations, deliberate or accidental, are fine. After all they are Folk, and this is Folk Dance.

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:36 PM

Good point, Mo. I remember being in a set with some beginners at the top. They walked through the dance and were then told to come back to the top to start. Thereafter, throughout the dance, whenever they reached the bottom they scurried back to the top in time to start again.

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: BexMcK
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:55 AM

I prefer the hand to elbow grip-- have had some serious bruises on my upper arms from elbow to elbow spinning, which is probably because I tend to be shorter than the person spinning me! But then, I've always found that the manner and vigour of spinning seems directly related to the amount of alcohol being consumed...

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Mo the caller
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:11 AM

And the ability to heed warnings and instruction is inversley proportional to alcohol consumed (so you can't win)

Thanks Topsie, I'll think about how I phrase my 'experts back to the top' instruction. When I've seen that happen is half-way through the dance, with people who haven't walked it. Must be alcohol, not logic cos how do they think they got to the top if they wont let anyone else have a turn. (is this what they call 'fuzzy logic')

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: JennieG
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:19 AM

Several years ago I sustained a severe elbow injury in Strip the Willow. The bloke I was dancing with is known in local dance circles for being on the rough side of exuberant, and during the swing at the start of the dance he swung me so hard - with his arms extended and his elbows locked - it caused a tear in an elbow tendon.    Now I hardly dance anymore which is a pity, because I still like it.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:34 AM

I think the hand-to-hand method is more common in Scottish dancing (at least the version favoured by the RSCDS), while the linked elbows is more common in English ceildh dancing. In my experience, RSCDS dancers are very controlled and graceful, and will not allow the centripetal force to gain momentum, whereas English ceilidh dancers will go with the flow and end up like whirling dervishes if they're not closely linked at the elbow.

In most Scottish dancers, the turns are written as hands, but are danced as either turns( hands) or Spins ( hands to elbows) depending on the dance and the group of people. There are many people in the RSCDS (including me) trying to remove the impression that it's all old ladies dancing very gracefully at all times. I can do it absolutly by the book if required, but most of the time good technique simply allows you to put extra spinns, twiddles etc, to have a nice big set, and to help beginners more. It's alot easier for them to get their reel of four right if the other three people are in the right place...

We try and teach hand to elbow spins, to everyone, even at ceilidhs. They're faster and more comfortable.

Topsie, haven't you seen Flying baskets done properly, ie with four people who know what they're doing, are well matched for height, have enough space and aren't drunk?
Flying the smaller two people* than is easy and safe, and everybody keeps their feet and the timing.

*Baskets with four men are good for a laugh...

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Schantieman
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:49 PM

Hand to elbow is definitely more comfortable, more secure and safer.

Flying ladies in baskets is fun - at least for the blokes! But it hardly seems to happen any more. Maybe everyone's just got too safety conscious. Or old.

;-)

Steve

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Mo the caller
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:47 AM

that's it. old.

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Mo the caller
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:53 AM

Having the womens feet leave the ground due to speed is fun, being hauled up, or jumping up can cause injury. As can a fast basket if someone lets go and people go 'flying'. Tales are told of a severed artery due to falling on a glass.
I don't call basket dances at drunken beginners dos.

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Mo the caller
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:41 AM

There is a Breton dance with a flying double star

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:54 AM

I've done that one Mo. That was fun.

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 12:16 PM

Flying double stars come up across Europe. I've seen Spanish, French, Belgium, German, and assorted eastern European dance them, either as stars of 3 to 6 couples, or a spin of 2 couples. They look fun, but I've not had a chance to do them yet.

There's a really impressive Polish spin/star type thing. About 10 men holding onto a short loop ( a really strong belt, I think) all dance a very fast star, and when they get up to speed, they can lean the whole thing over, so one side is virtually on the ground. Must take alot of practice to avoid the whole thing disintegrating into a very fast, unstable heap of people...

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: danensis
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:21 PM

I thought "elbow to elbow" had been banned by the elf and safety police?

Presumably if you have carried out a risk assesment and issued a method statement you will be all right when the writs start flying.

John

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: GUEST,Fidjit
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 06:06 AM

Yes. Hand to elbow.
And for you lads. The arm rests nicely under the breast then,. Ahh!

Chas

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Schantieman
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 11:36 AM

Ah yes - that too. But then the hornpipe hold is also good for that!

S

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 12:15 PM

So that's what you call it...

But seriously, what's a hornpipe hold? The spin ( assuming pivoting on right foot) where you each have you right hand on you partners left side, at waist height?

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:20 AM

I find that if the lady goes for the left hand shake type hold when swinging I end up getting my fingers stuck in the flap of the fly (zip)... yuk!

Sal

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Schantieman
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:20 AM

Yes, that's the one Bunnahabhain. With (or without) the left hands in a sort of indescribable hold at about chest height.

Sally: you want to get your hand up a bit higher!

S

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Compton
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:10 AM

I like Hand to Elbow ...but when I call to many "merry" people late in the evening....they will do what they like, anyway(and not give a bugger what I told them !!

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Compton
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:10 AM

...which of course is how it should be!

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: GUEST,Guest Moagster
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:11 AM

What about the 'back to back' hold - anyone do that? Basically the partners stand next to each other, right shoulders just touching but back to back. Each dancer crooks their left hand along their own back at waist height, palm out, and extends their right hand. The extended hand holds on to their partners crooked hand and they spin like that. Its possibly Irish, fearsomely fast but quite exhilarating (sp?) especially if you trust your partner not to let go. However, if they do let go you will end up at the other side of the room. Been there, done that, lived to tell the tale....

Morag

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:51 AM

I don't think it's Irish, Moagster. The RSCDS* cite it as a turn for two ladies, in dances with a highland influence, and specified for a few in books of dances published in the 1920's or 30's. The society at that time was very conservative**, and only published dances that had been long established in Scotland, so it was not a new import.

The RSCDS style of country dancing is simply a confluence of Playford type older country dances, with post-Napoleonic ballroom and Highland influences. Any Irish influence on it is hard to see.



*Royal Scottish country dance society

** It still is, but there are a number of us working on loosening it up a bit

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Compton
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM

Sounds like the "Hullican Jig" hold to me!

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: GUEST,Jaimie Gibb
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:42 PM

As a caller it is my belief that the man has the responsibility of ensuring that his partner is safe during the dance. I believe that hand to hand with elbow clasps gives him much greater control as he 'Birls' with his lady, giving her a greater sense of security and faith in her partner aand in so doing, lessening the chances of her falling and hurting herself. Particularly important with novice dancers. As we all know it's too easy to get carried away in Strip the Willow.

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: terrier
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:12 PM

Somebody mention the Hooligan Jig?
I've seen many people carr-ied away ( or carried off ) from a strip the willow.
Oh for the gentle ballroom hold. The sensuous touch of the mans hand gently guiding his partner whilst she tantilisingly rests the tips of her fingers on her partners shoulder......or was that something out of Mills And Boone......

Subject: RE: Strip the Willow
From: Rowan
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:25 PM

No, terrier, it was around and celebrated long before those books arrived, and still is in some parts.

Guest Jaimie has it right as far as my dancing goes and it has always been my approach as a caller and MC. Enthusiasm and excitement are excellent ambitions but not to the detriment of others, IMO.

Cheers, Rowan