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BS: Pub Signs the Law

GUEST,jimlad 14 Jan 07 - 07:43 AM
Paul from Hull 14 Jan 07 - 07:46 AM
Paul from Hull 14 Jan 07 - 07:58 AM
Georgiansilver 14 Jan 07 - 07:58 AM
Captain Ginger 14 Jan 07 - 09:56 AM
GUEST, Topsie 14 Jan 07 - 10:43 AM
Bunnahabhain 14 Jan 07 - 11:27 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Jan 07 - 12:23 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Jan 07 - 12:34 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Jan 07 - 12:34 PM
Captain Ginger 14 Jan 07 - 12:35 PM
Mr Red 15 Jan 07 - 08:08 AM
Scrump 15 Jan 07 - 08:42 AM
Paul from Hull 15 Jan 07 - 09:07 AM
Scrump 15 Jan 07 - 09:18 AM
skipy 15 Jan 07 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,jimlad 15 Jan 07 - 09:48 AM
Liz the Squeak 15 Jan 07 - 04:22 PM
Captain Ginger 15 Jan 07 - 05:21 PM
Liz the Squeak 15 Jan 07 - 05:35 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Jan 07 - 06:27 PM
Herga Kitty 15 Jan 07 - 07:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM
GUEST, Topsie 15 Jan 07 - 07:23 PM
skipy 16 Jan 07 - 05:03 AM
Paul from Hull 16 Jan 07 - 05:46 AM
treewind 16 Jan 07 - 06:14 AM
Micca 16 Jan 07 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,jimlad 16 Jan 07 - 09:28 AM
Mr Red 16 Jan 07 - 01:04 PM
Andy Jackson 16 Jan 07 - 03:07 PM
danensis 16 Jan 07 - 04:40 PM

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Subject: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: GUEST,jimlad
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:43 AM

Is it an urban myth that pubs etc have by law to display a sign outside bearing the
name of the establishment.

PS There is money on this and we may not eat next week if I am wrong


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:46 AM

Hmmm...not heard of this before...will have to have a search!


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:58 AM

Wikipaedia gives THIS
on a brief search (scroll down to 'Pub Signs' about halfway down the page). It was Law in 1393, but says nothing subsequently, so is unlikely to win you your money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:58 AM

There is no law that says pubs have to have signs but it is in the publicans own interest to have one to differentiate between it and a large house.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:56 AM

A pub needs to have the name of the licensee and the nature of the licence on display, but does not need a sign - i.e. "Tommy Atkins, licensed to sell beers, wines and spirits."
Or, in the case of an offie, "Tommy Atkins, licensed to sell beers, wines and spirits for consumption off the premises."


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 10:43 AM

There is a pub called the White Horse, down a narrow road, with a 'pub sign' at the junction with the main road, but the sign is an empty rectangle - if anyone tries to put a sign in it, it mysteriously disappears, hence the common name for the pub: the Pub-with-No-Name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:27 AM

London, at some point (Georgian Era?) banned shops from having   overhanging signs, due to too many of them falling on passers-by. Thos prompted shopkeepers to have larger windows in which to display their goods, as an alternative form of advertising.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:23 PM

Captain Ginger, now that a premises licence and an individual licence are needed under the Licensing Act, are you sure you are up to date on the notice? Its not a bit of the Act that ever interested me but it could have changed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:34 PM

Paul from Hull, I have in the intervening few minutes not been able to trace the name of that enactment of Richard II nor to trace whether it is still in force. There are many Acts that have never been repealed that no longer serve any useful purpose. The act as cited would not have required a re-seller of beer as distinct from a brewer to hang a sign, and as far as I know it was customary from long before that for premises selling intoxicants for on-consumption to hang a log outside the premises, hence the many pub names like "the Crook Log" and "the Crooked Billett"


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:34 PM

JimLad, why not ring your local licensing department?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:35 PM

You may be right Richard - I'm basing my observation on the fact that licensed premises still seem to have the names over the door; but that could indeed be a requirement of the individual's licence rather than the licensing of the premises per se. It's many a long year since I attended a brewster session!


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:08 AM

FWIW - the following was true in the 60's because there was a court case over it.

If an establishment calls itself an "INN" the proprietor must provide shelter for weary travellers at any time of the day or night.

Hence all this name changing and why some are "Taverns"

But as to whether the law is still in force I am not sure but I would hope it is - the Gov do have an opinion of driving more than a couple of hours non-stop. Not that laws don't conflict each other - lawyers get rich on such.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:42 AM

I believe the poster who said the licensee's name has to be displayed over the door is right. I don't think the pub name has to be displayed anywhere. After all, the name can be changed, seemingly on a whim of the owner, without any legal requirement to consult other interested parties such as the local community, who may want to preserve the old name because it has local historical significance.

Most pubs do of course display the name prominently, but this isn't a legal requirement - it just makes sense to advertise. But I know of a few pubs (mainly in fairly remote northern areas) which don't have either the traditional swinging pub sign, or the name on the wall in large letters. Presumably the locals all know where the pub is, and the licensee has never found it necessary to advertise it - in some cases they may even want to deter outsiders (although I know of very few pubs that can afford the luxury of being choosy, these days).

As to the changing of pub names, many people are concerned that historic names are being replaced with 'trendy' alternatives, in an attempt to attract yuppies or youngsters. These names will just change again when the current fad wanes in popularity and the next fly-by-night fashion takes over. Sad, really. :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:07 AM

Richard B,

Yes that Wikipedia link wasnt even as helpful as 1st it seemed, eh? How very true too about unrepealed Acts!

How far back the re-selling of beer being more commonplace than being sold where brewed, might be an interesting question though, & thats going to be a separate law (or separate intance within a law anyway) I suppose.

As well as the log hung as a sign, apparently, a green bush was also used at times I believe, though whether thats a different era, or particular to a part of the country, I dont know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:18 AM

In olden times, most businesses used a visual sign because most folk were illiterate (so a shoemaker would display a boot, the apothecary a pestle and mortar, the accountant an abacus, etc. - actually I made one of those up!). The 'bush' sign was used in Roman times to indicate a drinking establishment, and I think this continued up to at least the middle ages (although this is from memory so if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me).


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: skipy
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:29 AM

There is NO requirement for a sign by law. also the need to put the name over the pub door is no longer reqd. by law.
A copy of the premise licence must be held on the premise to be shown on request.
These are facts obtained from 'er indoors who's job it is to licence pubs, clubs etc.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: GUEST,jimlad
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:48 AM

Skipy

Thank you and 'er indoors ( mine is called Cruella-de Wife) for giving the definitive answer to my query. As I said initially there is money on this (£25) and the spectre of hunger is passing in front of me.

Does anyone have a recipe for 'tater hash' made with Pedigree Chum or 'cod mornay' made
with Kit-e-Kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:22 PM

Jimlad: ~ Pet food is perfectly edible - it has to be by law. Dog and cat foods are usually put down in bowls in an open environment - i.e., not in a cage or pen - and is therefore accessible by children. Because of this accessibility, meat sold as dog or cat food has to be fit for human consumption. There was a man on 'What's my line' once, whose job it was to taste these meats. I'm not old enough to remember the programme on its first airing, but I seem to recall he stumped the panel.

I remember our village grocer sold dog biscuits by the pound and kept them in 100cwt sacks in the shop. Many's the handful of doggie treats I had out of those sacks...

I thought the Romans had represenstations of grapes and vines or ivy, rather than a general bush outside their tavernas.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:21 PM

100cwt - blimey, that's five tonnes! Must be some might dogs in East London!

Back on the topic in question, I thought an evergreen branch was the sign of a bar - hence the old phrase 'a good wine needs no bush'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:35 PM

Evergreen - ivy... carried by Bacchus (Dionysus) although from this picture, I'll stick to a nice glass of milk.

The village wasn't in east London, and 100cwt bags of biscuits were a month's supply for all the dogs in a 2 mile area.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:27 PM

Scrump, what did a mohel put up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:04 PM

tears in the eyes?

Kitty


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM

The old pub names often tend to come back - locally for me, the Half Moon in Stortford is back to its old name, after a spell as a Tap and Spile; and in Epping the George and Dragon has got its name back after a period with some silly name or other.

I've always liked the old barber's sign, the red and white pole, referring back to the time when barbers used to do a bit of surgery on the side. Or sometimes it was surgeons doing a bit of barbering on the side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:23 PM

Liz, Was that 'nearly a month's supply' after you had been scoffing some of it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: skipy
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:03 AM

Some pub names don'tlast very long!
31 July 1981 a large pub opened in Aylesbury, called the Prince of Wales, it was closed about 3 hours later!
They had failed to obtain permission to use the crown and it was on everything, even the wall paper & the carpets! The whole lot had to be ripped out and redone. I think it became the archer or something similar. "Cost a fortune" or The Cockup" would have been good choices.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:46 AM

Isn't there (or its maybe was...) a pub somewhere in UK actually called 'The Temporary Sign'


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: treewind
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 06:14 AM

One of my favourite pub signs is on a pub called The Cock. The sign has a picture of a horse.

It's a well-endowed stallion. Always raises a giggle.

A.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Micca
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 07:02 AM

A pub near us here in East London UK had a picture of Queen Victoria holding a closed black fan in one hand, after the pic deteriorated a bit with age and weather, the fan looked like a roll of black plastic rubbish sacks, it was always known to us as the "Queen Vic and Bin Bags"


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: GUEST,jimlad
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:28 AM

Can I make it clear that I take no responsibility for anyone becoming ill or even dying after reading Liz the Squeaks contribution earlier regarding pet food being fit for human consumption. I have spoken to my local Master Butcher a butcher of 40 years standing
(OK I admit he did sit some of the time) he tells me that as meat and poultry goes throgh the food chain it is first called Class A and is sold over the Counter,Then Class B is sold to exotic restaurants.
Class C is made into Sausages and finally the really smelly stuff left goes to the pet food manufacturers.

I hope no one is puking as I write.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 01:04 PM

treewind

A cock horse was a horse stabled at (usually) a pub at the bottom of a hill and hitched to the stage to assist tired horses up the hill. So a horse in the sign of the "Cock" could be referring to a diminution of "Cock Horse" and there are a few pubs bearing that name. However a visual wink is congruent with the ubiquitous "Firkin and Euphemism".

At the top they would unhitch and walk the horse home.

There were stables at a now "flatted" pub in Malvern (Malvern Link), I always assummed it had history going back to these times. There is quite a rise to Link Top.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 03:07 PM

Hence "Ride a Cock Horse to Banbury Cross"


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Subject: RE: BS: Pub Signs the Law
From: danensis
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:40 PM

The daft thing about changing pub names is that all the locals continue to call it by the old name long after the yuppies and trendies have moved on.

John


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