BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia [19 Jan 07]

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia [19 Jan 07]
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 04:29 PM

Again you are right Declan, they all played for me, and some of them were a big improvement on the original.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia [19 Jan 07]
From: Declan
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 03:56 PM

Thanks for the link Mac1. Some of the clips wouldn't play for me, but I know what they would have sounded like. The inclusion of a few of these clips in the companion program at the expense of some of the less folkie material would have greatly improved the program, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia [19 Jan 07]
From: GUEST,mac1
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 03:00 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/folkhibernia/

Follow the link to see a selection of specially shot performance clips that didn't make it in to the original documentary.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 05:35 AM

Declan Many thanks for your detailed information

Ronnie Drew did certainly somewhere sing the Shane McGowan song to which I refer about the bodies buried on the sand dunes

Any one know it?

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 04:07 AM

Declan, You are right I went to bed after that load of rubbish that went before, I know it takes all sorts, but my idea of folk music dosen`t include Van Morrison, the folK clubs I once attended would have had Van going around at the tea interval selling raffle tickets.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Declan
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 01:08 PM

If Ronnie Drew sang a song written by Shane McGowan, it must have been in the Shane McGowan documentary, which I didn't see.

For the record in the "Folk Hibernia" documentary, Ronnie sang "I'll tell me ma", Port Lairge (I was a day in Waterford) and Cutting turf in Ardee. He also sang McAlpine's Fusileers, which I think The Pogues recorded also, but it was written by Dominic Behan, either when Shane was very young, or possibly before he was born.

The Pogues sang two of Shane's songs in the doc - The sick bed of CuChullainn and Fairytale of New York (Shane's lyrics) and also Ewan McColl's Dirty old Town.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Declan
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 07:42 AM

Ray,

You are talking about the documentary itself, which was a repeat of an earlier showing. Ireland (or a large proportion of it) became independent in 1921. The Free State was declared a Republic in 1949, but was not under DeValera at that particular time. It was one of the few periods between 1927 when Dev came back into parliament after a Civil War and the 1960s when he stepped down, when he had been voted out of office. That's probably more detail than you wanted to know.

Ard Mhacha is referring (I presume) to an acompanying program of archive footage from the BBC which was shown for the first time last Friday. You didn't hang around for Altan (including Frankie Kennedy), Sharon Shannon, Martin Hayes & Denis Cahill then Ard?

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 06:35 AM

Thanks Declan!! I was intrigued and delighted by all of it

Was this the prog where Eire became independent under Eamon Devalera in 1949 (at the the start of the prog) I do LOVE Social History!!

Note I am not Catholic (religion)!! but certainly not unsympathetic being from working class background

Ray

Ray

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 05:53 AM

I had the pleasure of giving this load of crap the trap-door, can you all be serious, the Clancy Brothers began the programme with I`ll tell my ma, and it went even further downhill from there, bloody awful.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Declan
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 05:34 AM

Padgett,

The Bozouki player (among his many talents) was Johnny Moynihan, once a member of Sweeney's Men (he also did stints as a member of Planxty and De Dannan).

I don't recall Ronnie singing a Shane McGowan song. I'll have another look and see if I recognise the song.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 04:55 AM

I enjoyed it

Saw Celtic Connections bit this weekend and Shane McGowan and use of the bazzooki which seems to have been a turning point in the Irish sound associated with current Irish music (set the scene)

I was asked yesterday who the woman was who kept coming up (Anne Briggs) and we also chatted about Bert Lloyd (A.L.) and Ewan Mccoll with my folkie friends

Some interesting times

Who was the bazzooki player ( he was on shown as a young man and also taking as a grey beardy bloke ~ like me)
What was the name of the song sung by Ronnie Drew written by Shane McGowan about the bodies burried in the sand dunes?

Err No I dont know the answer!!

Ray

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: melodeonboy
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 07:31 AM

I enjoyed the Folk Hibernia concert programme, but I got so irritated by the companion programme that I turned it off. Most of it seemed to be people miming on Top of the Pops.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Declan
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 06:49 AM

Anybody see the companion program on BBC4 last Friday?

I had no problem with anything that was included, but was a bit dissapointed with the absence of any footage of Sweeney's Men, Planxty, and the Bothy Band, who formed such an important part of the story told in the documentary.

The footage shown all seems to have been from the Central BBC Archives. There is (or at least there used to be) some very good archive footage from the 70s in the BBC Northern Irelad archives. They compiled it into a series called sessions of the 70s a few years ago.

Also, as I said above I'd have liked to see some of the people they filmed for the documentary included (e.g. Paddy Glackin, Téada, Johnny Moynihan).

Apart from that it was overall a good program for which the BBC should be given huge credit.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:03 PM

daminen dempsey singing about people in an everday house is harldy jade goody and iraq now is it, lets not be stupid,

stop reading into things which arent there to plainly have a go at somone. and yes the ploguh boy in the tractor is perfectly relevant enough.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Dazbo
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 09:06 AM

So Stacey, you'd only sing about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, problems with the NHS, Jade Goody, President Bush would you? What about the ploughboy in the tractor, is that relevent enough?)

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: GUEST,stacey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:15 PM

i think damien dempsey is just brutally honest, why fanny about with songs about merry ploughboys which have no relevance to today

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 11:30 AM

Listening to traditional Irish(or English, or Scottish or whatever) folk recordings, and then comparing them with the folk revival sound of the same material, is very educational, and very amusing! Margaret Barry to Clannad I would recommend, as an interesting transition.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:28 AM

I once spotted a guy heading into a pub full of music, carrying the sort of long, cylindrical document carrier architects use to transport drawings. " Ah! A bazooka player!", sez I...

Exit rapidly

Regards

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 08:38 AM

Heard in a Shepherds Bush pub some years ago.

Young man proudly showing off a bouzouki he'd just brought back from Greece, voice from the staunch Rebublican corner "How de f**k de yer stop a tank wid dat ting!!!?"

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 08:30 AM

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Marje
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:07 AM

Ach, Joe, and dare's me tinkin you were tryin to wroite in an Oirish accent, begorrah bejabbers!

Marje

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Moleskin Joe
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:29 AM

Wit reference to te bouzouki Rory and Alex MacEwan were usin one in te late Fifties.
(Faulty keyboard responsible for missspellins)

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:21 PM

The highlight for me was Johnny Moynihan saying on every record he hears is "some f*ucker playing a bouzouki".

Priceless! Makes me proud to play the instrument : )

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Gulliver
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

Marje, I don't think it quite as simple as that. As a relative newcomer to playing on the folk scene I find that the best-known songs, tunes, etc., have been covered so often by groups starting with the Clancy Brothers, Dubliners, etc., and later by Christie Moore, Mary Black, etc., so that one has to dig deep, or be very creative, to find new "traditional" material. This also means putting together new arrangements or going further afield to other cultures, to satisfy that creative urge.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Marje
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 11:26 AM

I think you've got a point, Dazbo. The older clips (like other old achive stuff I've seen) do indeed sound more like English or Scottish music than much of the more modern Irish music. The same applies to the accents of many of the voices. The music had more variety of style and tempo than much of what is promoted as Irish music now, and the older celidh bands sounded more similar to modern Scottish bands, both in repertoire and in the instruments used.

I think that in recent years the Irish have tried hard to be as Irish as possible and develop the sounds and qualities that distinguish them from neighbouring cultures. This is very understandable, but it would be a pity if they were to lose touch with some of the older aspects of their music and culture.

Marje

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Dazbo
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:45 AM

As someone who usually finds that a lot of the Irish folk (at least as seen in England) leaves me cold I really enjoyed it as a programme (much, much better than the excrable Folk Britannia) and to my surprise I really liked the clips of the old singers and players. Sounded more English to my ears than what I think of as Irish.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: GUEST,nickr90
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:32 AM

Like all such programmes it is impossible to please everyone. In general I think the BBC did a good job and gave us a good mix of social history and music development.
Just like the new Irish stamps - everyone has a view on who should be in or out.
Lets hope the BBC follow this up as they did the Folk Brittania with a few - a lot - concert pieces by Irish artistes. There has to be a good selection out there.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:46 PM

Nicholas Carolan has begun another 13 weekly series of -Come west along the road,- This excellent RTE Programme has been running for the past 9 years the longest running TV folk programme on RTE.
Carolan features music and song from sessions around Ireland, he delves into the archives and comes up with some very interesting items, I have   cherry-picked many a gem, one of our Mudcat members Bonnie Shaljean has featured in a past series.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Declan
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:17 PM

Jude,

I'm not sure if BBC4 have any programing available on the web.

If you have access to digital TV then keep an eye on the listings for BBC4 in the next week or so, as they tend to repeat stuff late at night for a while after it is originally shown.

Some of their programs also turn up later on the terrestrial channels, maybe late night on BBC2. I'm not sure if they've reshown Folk Britannia on BBC 2 yet, but it often happens.

If, as I suspect, you've been a follower of Irish Music down through the years, you probably won't find too many surprises in there, but it is a good program none the less.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Alba
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 09:39 AM

Is there somewhere I can view this programme online?

I have a feeling it will full of the usual suspects but then there is so much territory to be covered on this topic it is a brave producer indeed that even attempts to tackle it.
I'd still like a peek to see just who was selected to be included (and who wasn't!) in this Doc.

Thanks for any info in advance
Jude

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Declan
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 09:21 AM

A further quibble about this program, on reflection.

It is an awful pity that they managed to feature Paddy Glackin (sitting with a fiddle and bow in his hand) and the group Téada, (the only representatives of the current younger generation of traditional musicians featured on the program, standing there looking awkward while one of them made a comment about the importance of the early recordings of Irish music made in America), without including even a snippet of their music.

It is almost inconcievable that the film-makers did not film some music along with the talking. A companion program made up of the musical out-takes would be at least as enjoyable, if not more so than the film shown.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 09:38 PM

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:52 PM

To continue, very good, although the early part of the programme was more to my taste.
The old shots of the Clancys, the Dubliners, Clannadd, Planxty etc, are included in an RTE series, "Come west along the road", this series of programmes has been running for the past few years, I have most of the series on DVDs.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:46 PM

V

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: melodeonboy
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:36 PM

Marje, the point you made about Willie Clancy's approach to music ("nothing to lose") was such an important one. Would that more singers and musicians could approach music that way.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: guitar
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 03:56 PM

i thought it was a very good programme, I thought everyone was good in it.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 01:40 PM

Yes, great program, as far a it went.

By the way, the step-dancer at the end was also shown in the 'River of Song' series a few years ago.

And next week ... J. J. Cale !!! It just gets better.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 01:33 PM

Thanks so much for the kind words, Andy!

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 01:25 PM

Such TV programmes will of course be limited to the visual footage they have available.

But I am not sure if that totally explains the omission of the likes of Paul Brady.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Declan
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 01:16 PM

Greg,

I don't disagree with this at all. But given there was a limited amount of time available, I would have preferred to see a bit more of the music they were actually supposed to be talking about.

Might have been better if, as they did with Folk Britannia, had put on a companion program with more music and less talking.

And while I'm in critical mode, I'm pretty sure that the black and white footage they showed as Ceoltoiri Chualainn was actually an early Chieftains line-up.

Anyway I don't want to be overly critical of the program as overall I do think, for all its omissions, that it was a good piece of work and an interesting program.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 01:05 PM

Declan: I think bunging in the odd bit of U2 Geldof etc was fine. Especially Horsips at their Spinal O'Tap best. It put other stuff in context.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Declan
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 12:32 PM

What was in there was very interesting. Its easy to come up with a list of people, groups etc that were not included, but its more whole sub-genres (horrible word, but I hope people will no what I mean) were excluded.

Little mention of the tradition of unaccompanied singing in English or Irish. One piece of Sean Nós with Gefdof speaking over it - deliberately done on the part of the progrmmers I think to contrast the old style with the "voice of modern Ireland". To look at the program one would be forgiven for thinking the session scene and the dance music tradition finished with Willie Clancy, apart from music industry approved versions such as The Chieftains, The Bothy's and Martin Hayes.

De Dannan were not mentioned apart from an album cover appearing in a shot which featured other covers to show there were bands others than the featured ones around. No sign of Altan, Dervish, Danu, Stocktons Wing ETC.(the list is a long one). No mention of any part of Ireland other than Dublin or the West - what about Cork for example?

There will be arguments about time and space availability, but there was time to include U2, Thin Lizzy, Bewitched, Brendan Bowyer ..., in a program which was supposed to be about Folk Music.

The makers decided to tell part of a story and thats fine - but it is a pity because there is so much more to Irish folk music.

As for the political and social stuff, its a rehash of a lot of other programs I've seen before - a lot of truth in there and a vast over-simplification of complex events.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 11:40 AM

I wonder will they ever do a Rebel Hibernia ?
Probably not in case they offend some-one

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 11:07 AM

Those jackets and ties are not just the old days, you know. I played a gig in Kilkishen last autumn, and, on a bit of a whim, turned up to do so in a suit and tie. Basically, it looked quite a backwoods type of place and I thought that might be the outfit of choice. And as I walked into the pub(Gallaghers) with my guitar, the guy strolling out at the time was indeed wearing a suit and tie, and there were more inside. Old habits die hard!

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Marje
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 11:00 AM

I enjoyed it very much, especially the way it put the music in its social and political context (I don't agree, Greg, I think the same could be done in England, although the connections would be different. There are sound reasons for the "ghetto" aspects of the modern folk scene, but that's another story ...).

Loved all the archive footage of old ceilidhs etc (all those jackets and ties, and women in neat frocks!). And I wish I had taped the show just for that final step-dancer.

The history of how some successful Irish bands have evolved, e.g the introduction of the bodhran and the bazouki, and the increasing sophistication of the arrangements, was interesting too. But my main criticism is that the programme concentrated too much on the commercial success of certain bands and types of Irish music, especially towards the end. We heard nothing of, say, Sean Nos Irish song (indeed, you'd never have known there was such a thing as the Irish language), or about the origin and popularity of the "Irish Session" as a social and musical phenomenon on both sides of the Irish sea.

But I suppose what I'm really saying is that one programme wasn't enough to do justice to such a complex subject. Anyone who still has only dipped into it, do go back and see the whole programme, there's lots of fascinating stuff.

The best moment, for me, was hearing Martin Hayes describe Willie Clancy's piping as the playing of "a man with nothing to lose". What he meant was that it was done with no thought for the next gig, the next contract, or the expectations of any listeners or promoters or agents - he simply lost himself in the music and played it entirely for its own sake. That's something I'll hold on to and chew over for some time.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:26 AM

And how could I miss..until I looked at where the thread started.

Packie Byrne and of course Bonny.
Probably not very well known outside "the scene" but so dearly loved by all those within.

Andy

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:22 AM

Fin and Eddie?
Noel Murphy (& Shaggis)?

Or did we come in too late?

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Fiolar
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:15 AM

Some parts were good but the programme only scratched the surface. As mentioned in one of the above there were so many artists missing. To name but a few - Delia Murphy; Mary O'Hara; Bridie Gallagher; Johnny McEvoy; Paddy Reilly. I could go on. Maybe there'll be another addition to extend the story.

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: melodeonboy
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:54 AM

Interesting, informative and (for the most part) enjoyable. Even the more nausea-inducing snippets (Clannad, U2, Geldof's face shoved into the camera lens, Horslips' drummer, Riverdance) were there as part of the overall "tapestry" and therefore worthy of inclusion.

And as some of you have already said, that clip of the stepdancer at the end was priceless!

Subject: RE: BBC4 tonight Folk Hibernia
From: Declan
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:30 AM

I don't want to turn this into a thread about Damien Dempsey. I first heard him live at that set in Cambridge and thouroughly enjoyed it. His songs mean a lot to me, but maybe that's because I live in more or less the same part of Dublin. If being in/out of tune was a barrier to listening to folk music, many of the people referred to in earlier threads as source singers would never have been listened to. Anyway everyone is entitled to their opininion so enough of that.

While I haven't watched the whole program yet, from what I saw, I think the program waqs interesting and well made within its own paramaters. Paul Brady was indeed a glaring omission, but I think Paul may not fit in with the political agenda of the program makers.
I'll refrain from further comment 'til I've watched the full recording.