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BS: Hillary is in the race for President

gnu 20 Jan 07 - 12:58 PM
gnu 20 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM
Greg F. 20 Jan 07 - 01:43 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 07 - 01:54 PM
Peace 20 Jan 07 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,kdumumorjj 20 Jan 07 - 02:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jan 07 - 02:10 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 07 - 02:14 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 07 - 02:17 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 07 - 02:20 PM
katlaughing 20 Jan 07 - 02:21 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 07 - 02:25 PM
Ron Davies 20 Jan 07 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Barry, away 20 Jan 07 - 02:36 PM
Peace 20 Jan 07 - 02:49 PM
Don Firth 20 Jan 07 - 02:54 PM
Riginslinger 20 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM
Peace 20 Jan 07 - 03:44 PM
Ron Davies 20 Jan 07 - 04:08 PM
Don Firth 20 Jan 07 - 04:26 PM
mg 20 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM
Peace 20 Jan 07 - 05:19 PM
Ron Davies 20 Jan 07 - 06:22 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 07 - 06:50 PM
mg 20 Jan 07 - 07:10 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 07 - 08:12 PM
Alba 20 Jan 07 - 08:27 PM
Cruiser 20 Jan 07 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,kdumumorjj 20 Jan 07 - 09:01 PM
GUEST,MarkS 20 Jan 07 - 09:34 PM
Riginslinger 20 Jan 07 - 09:56 PM
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Subject: BS: Hilary is in the race for President
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 12:58 PM

Here is an article.

History!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hilary is in the race for President
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

Oops... I meant, "History?"

And, Hillary has two ls.

I think my brain is as frozen as my fingers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hilary is in the race for President
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 01:43 PM

Should she actually become the Democratic party candidate it will ensure a Republican victory. Love her or hate her or something in between- she is simply unelectable.

Here's hoping she & the Democratic National Committee understand this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hilary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 01:54 PM

I dunno...there are so many who would NOT vote Republican next time...and so many that say they would NOT vote for a woman (especially this woman)...and so many who say they would NOT vote for anyone with African_American heritage...and so many who would NOT vote for anyone who agrees with Bush's military policy..(McCain)...and so many who would NOT vote for Rudy Guiliani, and they ALL say they would not vote for Kucinich.

I don't think predictions at this stage of things are very useful. Maybe they WILL draft Gore at the last minute!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hilary is in the race for President
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:06 PM

We could all use a Will Rogers about now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hilary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,kdumumorjj
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:08 PM

Bush was unelectable. The butt of all late-night comedians' jokes. Gore was riding a crest of popularity. Double-digit lead that fell to simple 51% of the vote, and Bush was installed in a coup d' etat. It's gonna happen again with Hillary. Like it or not, we now have a royal family in America. The Bushes have achieved that distinction by being utterly ruthless in solidifying their place as America's number one drug family. All cartels lead to them. So they have the backing of the bankers. Money is money, whether it's generated by drugs or churchwork. And the Bushes' #1 crime lieutenant was Bill Clinton. He protected the CIA's drug drop point at the airstrip in Mena, Arkansa for years. For that service, he was hand-picked by Bush #1 to serve as the seat warmer until the next Bush was ready for office. Now we'll have Hillary's fat ass warming the seat. America's going to be presented with a simple Democratic choice a woman or a black man. lol. Hillary will be the long shot (hey, now there's an idea), but she'll "defy all trends" on election night and if need be, a court will install her in another fake rasslin' match where everyone gets good and heated up about "their candidate." And then once Hillary is in, Oprah is going to be our Secretary of State (this part is conjecture). But they're grooming Oprah for something...she's way too visible doing "good works" lately, and they're troweling on the makeup by the bucketload, so Hillary will say the Sec of State job is now a job for "a woman of color" because Condi Rice crapped on it, and Oprah will be appointed (but I don't know whether she'll be orange or purple at the hearings...kind of like Michael Jackson in the coloring dept). Hillary. Then what? The NEXT generation of Bushes and Clintons? Oh man...Chelsea. Heaven help us.

Odd fact. The 4 BATF agents who died in the siege at Waco, TX, were all ex bodyguards of Bill Clinton. They were the only 4 agents to die, and all of them were killed with bullets behind the left ear (execution style). They would have known about Clinton's dealings at Mena.

"16) Steve Willis, Robert Williams, Todd McKeahan and Conway LeBleu were the only four BAFT men killed at Waco.In an autopsy performed by a "private Doctor" all four were found to have near identical "execution style" head wounds. All four had previously been bodyguards for Clinton prior to their deaths in April 1993...."

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=14

3) Kevin Ives and Don Henry: two 16 year old boys who may have stumbled across drug running operations involving Clinton at Mena airfield in Arkansas in 1987.Initial reports, by State Medical Examiner Fahmy Malak, suggested that the boys had fallen asleep on the railway line and been crushed. However when the parents kicked up a fuss another forensic report showed Kevin's skull had been crushed prior to being placed on the track whilst Don had been stabbed in the back.

11) Danny Casalaro, a journalist investigating Mena airstrip, the Arkansas coke trade and INSLAW. Had warned his family that he had learnt too much and not to believe it was suicide if he turned up dead. Shortly thereafter he was found in a bathtub in the Sheraton Hotel in Martinsburg, West Virginia. Both his wrists had been slashed, one ten times, all his research material was missing and has never been recovered

And I always thought the Windsor family were bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hilary is in the race for President
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:10 PM

My impression is that it's a not a question of "so many that say they would NOT vote for a woman" and "so many who say they would NOT vote for anyone with African American heritage" - but rather of them not actually saying it, but...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hilary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:14 PM

(Just to be clear, I tend to vote Democratic, and I see several of the probable candidates that I could live with...who, IF they were elected, could do a decent job. I am NOT sure yet which I would absolutely prefer. The sad damn thing is that way too many people will vote for or against Hilary based on Bill, and vote for or against Obama based on bias, and vote for or against Joe Biden based on his hairline and speaking voice, and vote for or against John Edwards based on his looks and accent....etc...etc...

This 'electibility' crap is driving me crazy! So we are to COMPROMISE on someone with the fewest discernable interesting characteristics in ideas, mannerisms & looks? Sheesh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hilary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:17 PM

(yeah, McGrath...kinda like that. So much IS unsaid...but...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hilary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:20 PM

oh...and 'guest' with the obviously random key-pounded name, YOU are so far off base with your asinine theories that it does not merit a real response.

I would suggest that the rules against guests who do not use regular names be invoked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:21 PM

It's herstory, gnudarlin'.:-)

And, while I don't know who I will vote for, yet, I AM EXCITED that she is running. I'd love to see her and Obama get in together!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:25 PM

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see that ticket..


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Subject: RE: BS: Hilary is in the race for President
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:30 PM

It's far too early to make predictions. If forced to, I 'd have to say that the #1 question now regarding the 2008 election is the Iraq war. If, as is likely, the "surge" is not the panacea it's pictured--and in a year, virtually nothing has changed for the better in Iraq-- McCain is in deep trouble--since he has pushed for the "surge". At that point, the US will have to withdraw from Iraq--since the public will demand it. And McCain will have to explain his position to the general electorate--which will not buy it. If we are still in Iraq in anything close to the numbers we now have--in 2008---no Republican who supported the Iraq war will have a chance.


McCain is by far the strongest candidate--of the entire field--Republicans and Democrats. Except for the Iraq war--(the elephant in the room)--and his own health. The other 2 Republicans usually mentioned--Giuliani and Romney--don't come close in appeal to the broad electorate.

But if our involvement in Iraq has not changed by 2008--and the Iraqis themselves are no better off--McCain can kiss his chances goodbye.

So any Democrat would have an excellent chance--except Hillary--who has a huge amount of baggage. Better choice--John Edwards, for instance.

I would hope Obama would have a good chance--but look what happened to Harold Ford. A lot of people will lie to pollsters--and stay racist.

But a lot can still happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,Barry, away
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:36 PM

Yes Kat, I'd love to see Hillary with Bracky as a running mate. I think so far what's in the offering Hillary by far is the better of the bunch it's a shame that there's no one who's outstanding though. I'm very concerned with the political backpedaling on the war though, I'd like a firm "we're out of there, now" stance.
Far out theories from Guests without a word of a better direction is useless.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:49 PM

The Iraq War is a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" thing for the USA and its politicians. Staying in Iraq is not what most Americans want. Leaving will result in massacres of Sunnis by Shi'ites, Shi'ites by Sunnis, Kurds by Sunnis, etc. There will be a redress of old grievances--those developed since the war began--and that redress will be bloody. So what politician will say "We are out right this minute" when for sure the blame for the killings will fall on s/he who supports pulling the pin?

I mentioned a few years back (as did a few other people) that eventually the UN would have to clean up the mess, and it looks like that will be the only 'graceful' way for the US to get back where it belongs--that is, in the US. IMO, the one hope the US has in this is to set a firm deadline and force the Iraqis to get their police services in order and working, while simultaneously getting troops from countries that are willing to assume peacekeeping duties into Iraq--peacekeepers with teeth and knowledge of the process. (IMO, the US and Britain should pay for the whole thing because it would not have been necessary without their invasion.)

And the countries who have looked at the invasion as a method of securing oil for the future will have to take a step back and begin to consider what they will do next.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 02:54 PM

Early days yet. It's going to be an interesting couple of years.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

I like Hillary. I don't think she's unelectable. Besides, she's better looking than the other candidates.

          I would like to see some kind of pressure from a third party, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 03:44 PM

Yes, a Republican-leaning third party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:08 PM

Gee whiz, Peace, are you trying to split the Republicans? Why, that's diabolical! And not nice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:26 PM

Good idea there, Peace!


Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: mg
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM

O'Bama will be nominated and will win hands down. he should avoid any deals with Hillary..it would diminish and taint him. John Edwards is OK for VP..I would like to see a woman, but please not Nancy Pelosi. Maria Cantwell is OK. Hillary should not have a cabinet position. She can stay New York senator if she wants and if they want her. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:19 PM

"In a letter to U.S. Defence Secretary Robert Gates, the second-term Democratic senator urged the immediate deployment of two new infantry battalions -- roughly 2,000 soldiers -- to southern Afghanistan, where Canadian forces are preparing for a Taliban offensive in the spring."

About friggin' time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:22 PM

Obama "will win hands down". That would be fine. But, as I said, look what happened to Harold Ford. And that was a border state (Civil War). There's a lot of the South. And racists elsewhere also. Most of whom, you can bet, lie to pollsters.   And when asked about it afterwards will always have a non-race-based flimsy excuse. And if Obama were to get the nomination, any speck of dirt will be seized upon----and magnified a million times. ( That's why it's great news that the drug business is already on the table--- there can be no surprise there.)

So the time to look for dirt is right now--when Obama is considered the second coming of JFK. So there will be no chance for a Swift Boaters for Character Assassination-style approach later.

Then, if he makes it through that inquisition, it will be time to psychoanalyze the white US public--will they, including in the South, pull the lever for a black man for president?


And even if every Mudcatter says yes, that is by no means a cross-section of US society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:50 PM

Ya'll realize that if they do any significant withdrawal from Iraq....say by Summer 08, the Republican will claim credit for it, and someone like McCain may get a boost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: mg
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:10 PM

Yes they will for O'Bama...as they and I would not vote for some who sort of ran in the past...not presidential material in my eyes. Too confontrational etc. (by which I mean Al Sharpton and some screaming woman) Although I wrote in Colin Powell. And might have to write in Condi Rice if Hillary runs. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:12 PM

Condi Rice, huh? Oh, wonderful...now there's a protest vote that will sway the masses...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Alba
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:27 PM

ROFL Bill and so true:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Cruiser
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:30 PM

John Edwards is the only Democrat I could vote for out of the announced candidates. I would guess that some other registered Republicans, who also voted for Kerry last time, might consider the same vote.

Mr. Edwards is a decent individual with a fine family and he has been outspoken against the Iraq war.

I would not want to see Bill Clinton associated with the White House in any way whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,kdumumorjj
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 09:01 PM

John Edwards attended the most recent Bilderberg meeting in Ottawa (the group of people who control the world's politics, media, etc.), so he's probably going to be the nominee. Hillary Clinton was gone long enough from New York the weekend of the meeting to have attended, but no one is clear on whether she was there. There's a big gap in her schedule for that day. Future presidents always attend the Bilderberg meetings in the couple of years running up to their election. They have to meet the bosses. Bush #1 took Bill Clinton to the Bilderberg meeting in 1991, yet television convinced voters in the U.S. that the 2 men were bitter rivals. Bush picked his replacement:

http://www.nndb.com/people/427/000026349/

People don't make it into the White House unless they serve the interests of the Bilderberg group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 09:34 PM

If Hillary is elected that will mean we can say we will have had a 24 year period where the president was named either Clinton or Bush.

Who say we do not have a hereditary aristocracy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 09:56 PM

What's this Bilderberg thing? Is that something Sandy Berger was hiding in his socks?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 10:19 PM

GUEST,kdumumorjj's calumny of a conspiracy theory, accusing Clinton of crimes including the murder of children, should be struck, but not because of the choice of a user name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 10:26 PM

No, it's the folks who try harder to Build-a-better-burger...it ain't Burger King!**bg**

(It's one of those conspiracy-paranoia things floating around out there.)

Obama is mixed. His mother was white, his father was Kenyan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 11:38 PM

That's out GUEST. Never met a conspiracy theory that he didn't like. And believe.

Sad, really. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 04:50 AM

Hilary Clinton will never be president of the United States of America!
Remember, you heard it here first.
G


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: The Villan
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:19 AM

Well thats a bit of a Blow if she gets the Job, said Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,jimlad
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:19 AM

I am English and can trace my family back to August 29th 1401. I would urge our American Friends to avoid hereditary rule like the plague. Look at us,a German ruling gang for around 300 years.During which we have lost a great Empire, several great colonies, America, Canada,
India and Australia and others.

Obviously I can have no say in the American electoral procedings but I could not imagine myself voting for Hillary,a woman with zero self respect ,who put up with Blowjob Billy and his antics for years.

A cynic might think she put up with him because she had one eye on the top job even then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:43 AM

Pie in the sky is fun to dream about. A woman president and or a black one is also a step in the right direction, but, the reality is NO woman will be president, and no black will be president in our lifetime.
Too many racists and sexists vote. I don't care who you are or what great ideas you have, if you can't get elected you are nowhere.
The problem with politicians is, they fall in love with the sound of their own voices. That's what former Senator/Secretary of State Ed Muskie said to former Senator, George Mitchell.

Mr. Ford in Tennessee may be the greatest candidate in that state's history, but he can not get elected in the state that invented the Ku Klux Klan.

I will support any democrat that gets the nomination, but I just hope it's Joe Biden.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:56 AM

The problem with Barack Obama is, he's already shown his hand by giving a speech in which he encouraged Democrats to go after the "Born-Again-Evangelical" vote. It he got elected that "faith based" stuff would just go on and on, and the real problems of society would never be addressed.

             I'd much rather have Hillary than Obama.


             I'm waiting to see if the Green Party can recruit Al Gore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 09:41 AM

The Green party is a good example of what I said. Third party candidates have never come close to being elected; not even Teddy Roosevelt and his Bull Moose party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 10:04 AM

I don't know, Lincoln got elected as the first Republican, and I don't recall who the first presidential Whig was, but there were no Whigs in the first few elections.
               If FDR had run as a Socialist, he might have gotten elected, in lieu of just having the Democratic Party co-opt all of the Socialist Party's programs.
               Ross Perot made a pretty good run at it, and would have done a lot better if he'd really been serious, and had a little more political savy.

               Besides, third party candidates make the races a lot more entertaining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:15 AM

Ringinslinger--

So sorry you don't like the "faith-based" stuff. The fact is the Democratic presidents recently have been both from the South and with pretty strong connections to religion.

The Democrats cannot afford to just write off the South before they even start.

And neither Carter nor Clinton (nor LBJ) tried to ram their religion down your throat--in fact believed strongly in separation of church and state. Demonization of religion and the religious is a fun sport on Mudcat----but not a wonderful political strategy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:22 AM

It will be interesting to see if the Republican National Committee (or their "friends") can resist the temptation to "demonize" Democratic candidates, a tactic which proved quite effective in previous campaigns. However, if they try it again they may run the risk of getting tarred by their own brush.

I'd like to see Hillary judged on her merits, along with all the other candidates. I'd also like some apple pie fresh from the oven and home-made ice cream with that wish!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:32 AM

The "faith based" stuff, Ron Davies, is nothing short of missappropriation of public funds. The Bush Administration is happily giving money to those organizations who support him politically, and withholding it from those who do not. The money would be better spent if it stayed in public hands, and was doled out base on real needs.

             As far as Carter and Clinton, I liked both of them, and you're right, Jimmy Carter went to extremes to keep his personal beliefs out of public policy. Johnson, on the other hand, was too much of a product of southern politics to play a straight game, it always seemed to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:59 AM

Ringenslinger--



We're talking here about Democratic candidates. LBJ's faults had nothing to do with religion.

I agree right down the line that Bush has perverted religion. Have I defended him? How is Bush despicable? Let me count the ways.


I still say a strongly religious Southerner who believes in separation of church and state is the Democrats' best chance. And Edwards also has the right message--"2 Americas".


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:08 PM

I like Edwards too, but I'd be hard pressed to support Obama for the previously stated reasons.

          On the other hand, unless something weird happens, I don't have any problem with Hillary either.

          And now I understand Bill Richardson is in the race.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:58 PM

Well, to give you an idea of what the next two years will be like...Hilary had barely finished her announcement before the talking heads were analyzing her 'tone', her dress, her 'image' and her history as a young lawyer at Watergate.
...and above we read (from someone who CAN'T vote here).."I could not imagine myself voting for Hillary,a woman with zero self respect ,who put up with Blowjob Billy and his antics for years"
   I have read similar statements like this before, and I shake my head...YOU don't know "what she put up with" and what her personal quotient of "self-respect" is! A statement like that says more about YOUR own particular moral stand than whether Hilary is a sane, competent, intelligent person with the right attitude to lead a country. A LOT of people think she is, but there are others who are also, and I want to see the debate center on policy and platform, not on her attitude toward her husband, who did a stupid personal thing amidst a lot of intelligent, thoughtful public things.

Like Kendall, I'd like to see Joe Biden get serious consideration...the man KNOWS foreign policy....but he just doesn't 'look' right on camera to many and as soon as he gets any attention, someone will bring up his poor footnoting of the use of a quotation in one of his speeches. Although he DID give proper credit at other points, the quote will be Gerrymandered to look like he simply plagarized. I am TIRED of that sort of thing taking up the airtime in campaigns.

Hilary faces a LONG uphill struggle against those who would not vote for ANY woman, as well as anyone associated with Bill...I would not bet on her being able to overcome enough close-minded prejudice to win even the nomination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 01:12 PM

I just do not understand the amnesia regarding Ms. Clinton's actions during the Clinton scandals.

Why would any woman vote for Hillary, the enabler of Bill's sexual "problems", to hold such a high office?

Why would any person support someone for the most important political office in the world that initially vehemently said the Lewinsky Scandal and other " Clintongates" were a "vast right-wing conspiracy" and had been "orchestrated and coordinated for political gain".

A conspiracy theorist for president; is that what Democrats want?

I just do not understand…


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 01:16 PM

My biggest concern is that Hillary will be far too busy now for me to arrange that date with her that I have been trying to set up for the last ten years or so...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 01:35 PM

It's too late to arrange a date with Hillary now, LH, the same people who were wasting their time following Monica Lewinsky around will now be wasting more time following Hillary, and, of course, she knows it.

       I don't understand Cruiser's attitude, though, Bill was just had normal drives like everyone else, so there was nothing for Hillary to enable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 01:41 PM

I don't like Hillary but it has nothing to do with Bill. In fact, I admire her for being able to overcome the rough spot in her marriage. Indiscretion is not new. I'm sure plenty of women have forgiven their husbands for far worse. I don't think anyone can claim to know anything about their relationship to each other.

I think the dems should go for a Hillary/Obama ticket and go for all the minority votes put together.

Peace has the best idea, split the Republican vote by creating a 3rd party. They could call it Social Republicans or something.

It seems that nobody is championing the environment.

Maybe thats the candidate everyone is waiting for. It seems that, in Canada, the people have managed to put enough pressure on the politicians that they are beginning to get the message. What we really need is co-operation from the U.S. to turn things around.

My guess is that whoever puts the environment first, will be the next president. Iraq is a problem that nobody can fix. Bush has made sure of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:00 PM

It's fascinating the way people cast around for acceptable reasons for not voting for Clinton or Obama.

Of course it's not possible that there might be other less acceptable reasons lurking beneath the surface....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:07 PM

People were following Monica Lewinsky around????

Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: The Villan
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:10 PM

Becuase she sucks!!!!

i'll get me coat


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:12 PM

Maybe I've got that wrong. Maybe they were following the president around, an just happened to stumble across Lewinsky. Of course, once they found her, they followed her around quite a lot.

         It could be they thought she was easy, or something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:12 PM

I remember seeing a remarkably candid interview on TV a couple of years ago (you will see this kind of thing only on PBS) in which he said that the worst day of his life was the morning he confessed to Hillary that he had indeed been hanky-pankying with Monica. He didn't say exactly what her reaction was, but he did say that the way she looked at over the following weeks him made him feel as if he were the lowest form of animal life on earth.

The idea that Hillary "enabled Bill's sexual 'problems'" is simply untrue. I fail to understand how people can come up with foundationless conjectures like this. And I fail to see how her husband's past indiscretion would have any effect on her abilities to govern, should she be elected.

But that's the kind of "information" our "informed electorate" bases their votes on. That seems to be what large numbers of American voters think is important.

Depressing.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:14 PM

LOL!!! Geez. Why did I bother asking...? Gahhhh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:26 PM

Hillary is in no way to blame for her husband's philandering, and it amazes me that anyone who would criticize her for her behaviour at that time can't put themselves in her place and imagine how it would have been for them to deal with it and face the public at the same time.

Astounding lack of empathy on their part, but that's how prejudice works. When someone's made up their mind not to like another person, they just can't put a good interpretation on anything that person does, it seems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: The Villan
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:18 PM

Sorry Little Hawk, but what else could you expect with a question like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:23 PM

I saw her announcement. She says she is going to attack the health care problem - am I the only one who remembers the last time she attacked health care and if her plan had been accepted, the level of health care would have dropped to the lowest common denominator?

I will not vote for her and that is based on her performance not Bill's. I would vote for Bill again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: The Villan
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 04:30 PM

Bill had charisma, even if he was a naughty little boy


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 05:47 PM

Is Grant O/K with this?
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:09 PM

And he played the saxophone too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:27 PM

Hillary, I believe, not only handled Bill's Monica affair as best she could do for both herself & her daughter but I believe she handled to the best way she could for the good on the nation & put herself second after the nation. IMHO she's a very strong woman & probly if Bill wasn't a public figure she would've toss him out on the street with both eyes blackened. That would've done us all a disservice, just look at what was done to Bill for not keeping his pants zipped up. And if someone's got a problem with Hillary over that, that got to be the least offensive peice of action done by any politcian that I can think of. That aren't many around that are in this game that are willing to overlook any slight of character but there are plenty that will use this trash to bash a character.

Mary, her health plan may not have been a great one but it was way beyond what we are now subjected to & so far Kennedy's the only one that came up with a decent one & it's been quite a while since we've been there, though we are in desprate need of a revisit.

The South's in dire need of a revamp & for their own good. This country's tail really isn't in their hands, though many would think so, they need a good economy, good jobs, decent housing, good health care, a clean enviorment, a decent educational system & their young ones home from fighting on foreign soil as much as the rest of the nation. Anyone offering all that will get elected no matter where their from or the color of their skin or what's between their legs or who they do or do not worship, in bed or out of bed.

The nation has to also play their part & listen to the issues & not the petty bickerings that goes on between parties & candidates & ther hired guns & mudslingers.

"When fishes fly from tree to tree"
   
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Slag
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:32 PM

Gee, Hilary is running for president. And who didn't see this comming from the first days of her husbands incumbency?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:04 PM

I will not vote for anyone who went to Yale - either undergraduate or Law school - in the next election. Things are getting worse, and this has to stop.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:08 PM

I Just hope fervently that this doesn't give our own beloved Cherie any ideas. I think I'll just have to emigrate if the unthinkable happens :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: The Villan
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:10 PM

Things have already got worse over in the UK ever since Tony sucked up to Georges Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,kdumumorjj
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:39 PM

Links about Mena, Arkansas, the drug smuggling drop point protected by Bill Clinton and his wife:

http://www.csun.edu/CommunicationStudies/ben/news/cia/mena/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: jimlad9
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:56 PM

Scrump

The lovely Cherie would not take the drop in her income for the PM's job


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:36 PM

Aw bless, guest kilimajaro has learned how to paste a url.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:28 PM

And a lovely URL it is. I've been sitting here admiring it all afternoon.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:40 PM

Oh, indeed it is charming! I'll bet it contains 127.83 MORE hours of potential reading about innuendos and accusations and conspiracy theories. I'll be delving into that right after....ummm....my expedition to the South pole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,kdumumorjj
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 09:13 PM

Oops, forgot to add my handle...

Yes, pasting URLs is interesting. Here's a goodie. Just takes a moment to load:

http://www.stewwebb.com/Bush%20Crime%20Family%20Flow%20Chart.HTML


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,kdumumorjj
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 09:34 PM

From the World Socialist Web Site, May 10, 2006:

...When it comes to politics, Murdoch, known in media circles as the "dirty digger," is equally adaptable in pursuing his personal gain. The most loyal right-wing Tory and friend of Margaret Thatcher during the 1980s, as he built up his media holdings in Britain, he switched his loyalties to "New Labour" when he saw that Tony Blair could provide a fresh face for even more reactionary politics and was more than willing to further Murdoch's interests in return for editorial backing. He made similar swings in his native Australia between the Labor and Liberal parties to further his efforts at monopolizing the print and broadcast media.

So, it should really come as no surprise that Murdoch is now emerging as a prominent backer of the Democratic US Senator from New York, Hillary Clinton....

...For the last five years, Murdoch's Fox News has served as the closest thing to a state propaganda network that America has ever seen, unswervingly defending the Bush administration while vilifying its critics. Tony Snow's transformation from a right-wing Fox talk show host into the head of the White House press office is only the most blatant expression of this politically incestuous relationship...

...Now, Hillary Clinton, whose $20 million campaign fund includes large sums from the unions, including Transport Workers Union (TWU) Local 100, will be getting even more money from Murdoch, a veteran union-buster and one of the most prominent advocates of the TWU's destruction....

Etc. So disgusting.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/may2006/murd-m10.shtml


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

Murdock and Hillary?

I hope this is a lie.

If she thinks she can play two ends against the middle, she will surely be defeated. I actually think that Hillary is a politician from the word go and I would never trust her to keep a promise or do anything other than score points for herself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 11:56 AM

uh-huh...that "Stewweb" site is SURELY the most authoritative place to find answers.....why look what he says on its main page!

"George W Bush a known Closet Homosexual, Insane, Fascist, Satanist. A Total Failure all his life and a Son of a Witch and Knights Templar-Satanist. George W Bush is the result of Satanic cross-breading and incest. George W Bush parents are 2nd cousins. This may explain Jr's low IQ of 92 and Daddy Bush IQ or 95."

THAT certainly clears it up for me! Yessir!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 01:34 PM

Blimey Bill and kinkajoo, that url sure is a cracker! We've gone off the scale in conspiracy terms on this one - illuminati, bilderberg, masons,gays...
Tinfoil hats on, chaps!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

I note that one cannot purchase tinfoil hats at WalMart. Or at any other national chain. So why do you keep bringing them up all the time? Do they come from the same inventive place your mythical "little green men" do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:55 PM

Sorry Little Hawk, they're only for the Illuminati and those 'in the know' ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:22 PM

Figures...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:30 PM

The Bilderberg group does exist. So does Skull and Bones. Laughing at it does not make them disappear. Laughing at someone who mentions organizations of that nature does not change the facts. I haven't opened Guests link, but then I have been looking at these 'societies' for many years now. Keep saying it ain't so will eventually make you believe it ain't s. However, it is so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:42 PM

You're quite right about that, Peace. The world will always be full of prigs who laugh and point and go on about "little green men" and "tinfoil hats", which is your first clue to how little thought or investigation they've actually given to the matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:06 PM

And the Masons and the Eastern Star and the Kiwanis Club and the Rotary Club and the Elks and the Eagles and Job's Daughters and the Rainbow Girls and DeMolay and University District Businessmen's Club and the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts and the Cub Scouts and the Brownies and the Overlake Friends of the Library and the Royal Astronomical Society and the Republican Party and the Democratic Party and the Socialist Workers Party and the Green Party and the Independent Party and the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference and the National Council of Churches and the Fellowship of Reconciliation and the International Longshoremen and Warehouseman's Union and the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists and the American Federation of Musicians and the Federation Internationale d'Escrime and Flat Earth Society and the Ladies' Musical Club and. . . .

And believe me, some of these people want to take over the world!

Now don't say you haven't been warned!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:42 PM

America's first woman president??Hope its not Hillary


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:39 PM

My money is on Job's Daughters as being the most insidious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Desdemona
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:59 PM

I've always liked Hillary and would personally be happy to give her my vote if she were to win the nomination. That said, I'm afraid that she does appear to be just too polarising, and another Republican victory would be quite literally unbearable; it will be interesting to see how the next 18 months play out.

~D


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,lol
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:26 PM

http://www.infowars.com/images2/cartoons/vote_billary.jpg

Best poster I've seen so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:33 PM

Yikes...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:05 PM

Ake - A very insightful link.

Whats the point of any woman or any democrat becoming president if they have the same policies as Bush?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:17 AM

Hillary wants to win, as she's said: "I'm in, and I'm in to win." Yeah, and with that and a buck . . . . It would be nice to know what she intends to do for the people of the US, but since that has not been the focus of too many American Presidents lately, maybe for her it's all about winning. Which will once again make the American people the losers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 07:45 AM

Ake - A very insightful link.

Here's what the same author thinks about
Obama

One can get the feeling that he will not like whoever runs for the Democrats.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,Black Maribuzo
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:47 PM

Actually, conspiracy theory is the only solution that fits everything from the Bay of Pigs to 9/11 to the invasion of Iraq; from the Bushes to the Clintons. Do a little research and you will be quite surprised how everything dovetails so nicely together. It seems the same people are involved over and over again.

You can begin with http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/ and the relationship with George H.W. Bush and his father Prescott with Richard Nixon, Jack Rubenstein, Gerald Ford and on and on.
Then do a search for Mena, Arkansas and the Clintons; the CIA running drugs, guns and money; Eugene Hassenfus and on and on.
I say we ask Ross Perot what he knows about all of this. The answers would shock and amaze all the world. I would bet my life on it.

Really, it all adds up. You must ask yourself why an educated person such as myself would believe the Grand-Conspiracy idea if it were nothing but hollow tripe. The answer is because, after disbelief is suspended and all of the evidence is looked at in an objective fashion, it all makes perfect sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:01 PM

It's inevitable that in this world of ruthless competition for markets and military dominance the richest and most powerful people would be making behind-the-scenes maneuvers that the public is not privy to. It has always been so.   So that there are conspiracies at the top levels of government and corporate control is obvious if you give it any real thought. The only question regarding the various given conspiracy theories that are out now is this: how accurate are they, how close are they to the truth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: JeremyC
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:15 PM

I would probably vote for her. She's a staggeringly intelligent woman, and unless I see someone else who would likely handle Congress better, I think she could make a good choice.

Claiming she shouldn't be in office because her husband got a blowjob is idiotic at best. What does her relationship with her husband have to do with, say, her foreign policy or budget plans?

I don't think she'd get elected, anyway, based on the massive public perception of her as being extremely arrogant. You could see that working during the state of the union address, where the cameras kept showing her in this rigid, upright position with a frozen smirk on her face.

It's too bad that packaging and other irrelevant qualities have such an influence on elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: MMario
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:22 PM

But she is arrogant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: JeremyC
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:37 PM

Arrogance isn't a big deal unless it's combined with foolishness (see George W. Bush for an example of this combination). Nothing I've seen on Hillary indicates to me that she has this combination of qualities.

For my part, I may not LIKE someone who's arrogant, but that's the last thing I give a shit about when I'm trying to figure out who I want as a president. I don't want a president who I could have a beer and shoot the shit with, I want a complete fucking genius who is superior to me in every conceivable way. That's because I'm voting for a leader, not a buddy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:44 PM

True. After all, Julius Caesar was arrogant, wasn't he? He was also a damned effective leader.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: MMario
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:48 PM

so - you are saying arrogance is good in a leader - but a person percieved as arrogant won't be able to get elected because of the perception of being arrogant?

catch-22


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: JeremyC
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM

I wouldn't say arrogance is anything but a personal quality that may or may not impact the way you lead people or your effectiveness at doing so.

Basically, arrogance could be good, bad, or irrelevant, depending on your other personal qualities. Politically, though, arrogance can make you unelectable, even though it may have fuckall to do with your actual performance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:04 PM

A lot of other things can make you unelectable too...like...

A not-so-pretty face. A vague resemblance to Herman Munster. Bad hair. A poor figure. A high voice. Not belonging to one of the two major political parties. Being female. Being non-white. Being a Jew. Being a Muslim. Being perceived as an "intellectual" rather than one of the common people!

All those, in the past, have made people unelectable as President of the United States.

Being Catholic used to also be a no-no till John Kennedy managed to overcome it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:35 PM

In many ways, elections were easier before photos, radio, TV...etc...we had to READ what the candidate said. Not everyone got to hear a live speech or talk to the candidate. Now it's just a race to see who can dig up the most negative data and 'spin' it in the cleverest way using flashy ads.

(A old cowboy was once accused of bragging. He replied, "Way I figger it, braggin' is when you got nothin' to back it up!".)

So...you don't like Hillary? At some point, you may get a vote on her...if Nevada, Iowa and New Hampshire haven't made all the decisions for you. Now THAT's the situation that needs fixing!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:07 PM

Wolfgang - You're right. The article you linked said this about Obama.

"Aside from not being Hillary Clinton, Obama has little to offer the antiwar movement or proponents of an alternative U.S. strategy for the Middle East."

It may be that he doesn't want any Democrat but it may also be that both Hillary and Obama are both politicians who are not really so different than any other politician, left or right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:25 PM

Arrogant? She's quite self-confident. But arrogant?

Are you sure that the problem isn't that she just an "uppity woman?"

Please define arrogance and give three examples in which Hillary is demonstrating arrogance.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:40 PM

Anyone remember the Goldwater slogan.."In your heart, you know he's right"? That was a bit arrogant, too.

later parodied: "yeah...FAR right"


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:07 PM

I find her the most appealing of the various potential presidential candidates. OK, she's capable to fudging issues and appealing to the lowest common denominator, but that's axiomatic in politics. And she must be good for all the right wingers to hate her so much. Anyone who attracts so much shit from such sleazebags has to be OK in my books.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:22 PM

Iowa and New Hampshire being at the beginning and weilding so much influence is a huge issue here. It is fought over regularly and somehow the situation remains. As an Iowan I wouldn't mind seeing it change. The sh*t hits the fan here early, lasts way too long, and then we become irrelevant again.

The thing I do think is good is that our population is fairly small and we are a caucus state. The candidates actually have to get out and talk to people rather than just flooding the airwaves. If you don't see a candidate in person here then you aren't trying. You can't swing a deat cat without hitting one.

I don't know how much of that is population and how much is because we caucus rather than have a regular primary. Maybe it is just because we are the only show in town for a while. No matter, it seems like being first should rotate a bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:20 PM

Being Catholic used to also be a no-no till John Kennedy managed to overcome it.

Right. How many Catholic U.S. presidents have there been since 1963?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:41 PM

" it seems like being first should rotate a bit."...Amen! I've been saying that for 5-6 years now. There should be a lottery..or a similar system...to rotate the primary schedule each 4 years. It would still 'favor' certain candidates at times, but would sure be an imporvement.
Better yet, NO primaries, but a system of candidate selection thru grass-roots organizations...then a set primary date for everyone where the final candidates are selected. And get money as far out of the way as possible...give every final candidate a budget and strict limits on how it can be spent.

Yeah, there are problems in the details, but it's a direction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 09:58 AM

Nothing to do with Hilary per se, but in another thread I wondered what the prospects of an avowed atheist would be. The US seems to be a place where a public profession of faith is seen as important. Would the electorate ever accept an atheist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 10:58 PM

Frankly, I think America would have been much more likely to accept an Atheist before Ronald Reagan got elected. But since Reagan, the country has taken many, many giant steps backwards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 11:26 PM

I doubt an avowed atheist would ever get the nomination. Maybe someone with no affiliation who was very sneaky could avoid the issue long enough, but not easily.

(Eisenhower had to 'look around' for a church when he was running...his family had been Jehovah's Witnessesm but he found a nice, quiet Presbyterian church down the street in 1953).


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:00 AM

Does anyuone not think that when (that is WHEN and not IF) Hilary runs for President she wil not run as Hilary RODHAM Clinton.....

The woman is a genius -- she handled a public humiliation that would have broken most people and came through like a star......Bill will be Mr. First Man and will handle it well......


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:13 AM

I don't think an agnostic, let alone an atheist, would ever be elected in America.

Tradition would not permit it.

There has to be a Christmas tree on the Whitehouse lawn and there's all that swearing on the bible, hand over the heart, etc.

Do the Bush twins go to church? I doubt it. I never really believed George was a Methodist. I think he was brainwashed by Billy Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:25 AM

It's an amazing contrast to Canada, where I have never heard a public discussion of or even a reference to the religious affiliation...or lack of same...of one of our politicians. I mean, does anyone here care which church a Canadian politician goes to or whether he goes to any church at all? I know I don't.

The religious issue is deliberately being used to polarize and divide people in the USA. And so are the racial issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:52 AM

Littlehawk - I think thats because they are all pretty much Anglicans or Catholics. Nevertheless, they are all Christians. If we ever had a Jewish Prime Minister or a Jehovah, I'd be very surprised. Even the ex-Catholics are Catholic by birth. I would suspect that Trudeau might fall in that category.

Interesting, I never really thought about it. Its not really an issue in Canadian politics but I think its because its generally assumed that they are Christian. Some of our politicians in B.C. are Chinese and East Indian. I wonder what religions they practice? Nobody asks or seems to think it matters one way or another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:24 AM

I don't think George W. knows what he is.

          That's interesting about Eisenhower, Bill D. It's a good thing he switched. It would have been awkward having to hand out copies of "The Watchtower" in the oval office.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 11:13 AM

George says he is a Methodist but the Methodist establishment has officially disowned him. Doesn't seem to make any difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Cruiser
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:03 PM

What kind of man would sit by his wife in a nationally televised interview while encouragingly letting her support his lie? That kind of man would be one who does not have the good character and integrity to remain as president or return to the White House on his wife's coattails.

What kind of woman would still defend her husband after she was made a fool of after she learned that she defended a liar? That would be one who should not be president, not for just this one reason alone, but also for other reasons that have been discussed in this thread and others.

Ms. Clinton seriously, and in her own words, thought all of this was just another part of the "vast right-winged conspiracy" against them. I too, as others have stated previously, disdain conspiracy theorists, especially one seeking the highest political office in the U.S. She exhibited a fatal character flaw by her statements.

The last 2 presidents have been polarizing and divisive. We do not need a third one. There are many Republicans, such as I, that will gladly vote for a thinking Democrat, but who will also do everything ethical to prevent Ms. and Mr. Clinton from ever *ruining* the country from the White House. An exceptional person is needed in the presidency to rebuild the ruin Mr. Bush and Mr. Clinton have done, each in their own destructive way.

I look forward to the day the USA has many women in places of political power, including the White House. However, Ms. Clinton can only further divide the country with all the political baggage she brings along with her. Many who think excellent character traits, honesty, honor, and trust still matter, regardless of political affiliations, will forever loathe Mr. Clinton.

Will some female please explain what an enabler is for those who do not see my reference to Hillary as being an enabler for Mr. Clinton's actions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:11 PM

"Bush was unelectable."

Bush was not legally elected.

I will hold my nose and vote for Hillary if they run her against some Repuglycan.

But I will not support her. She has compromised in her position on Iraq. The Democratic base voted for the Democrats to get us out of Iraq and she is a stumbling block.

As for Biden, he was the one that thought Alito (in his Supreme Court nomination) was the "real deal". I don't think Biden is the real deal.

The only person that represents what I think that is running is Kucinich. It makes me believe that a Third Party system is in order.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:20 PM

But, hey, man the entire principle of a competitive 2-party system IS to polarize and divide people! That's what it's based on. It's exactly the same aggressive and divisive dynamic that drives the hype around a football game or a World Series! All their BS about "binding up the wounds" and finding consensus after a leadership campaign or an election is over is just that...total and absolute BS. They live to destroy one another. The $ySStem as it exists depends on people being polarized and divided! That's what makes good sound bites on the news. That's what employs radio talk show hosts. That's what gets headlines. That's what the sponsors want.

If you can't see this, it's because you have never really looked at the forest, being too distracted in focusing on the individual trees... (grin) I became aware of it way back in high school (in New York State) in those ridiculous student council elections which were set up exactly the way your national elections are. Two lots of "faces" are chosen, quite arbitrarily, I might add, to run "against" each other. Nobody really knows why! ;-) Everyone has to then decide who they are "for" and who they are "against", and then the nastiness begins. The nastiness was quite minor most of the time in high school, of course, but it was certainly there. They were planting the seeds that would get those young minds to go out and thoughtlessly support Democrats and Republicans for the rest of their lives...

Dianavan - You're right that it would be very difficult to get a Jew elected as Prime Minister of Canada...or a Jehovah's Witness. Both too far outside the mainstream of the majority. I think, though, that it is considered inappropriate in Canada for politicians to openly posture as "religious" to get them more votes when campaigning. That is certainly not so in the USA. That is the difference I was alluding to. Behaviour that is considered normal for a politician in the USA would be considered embarrassing and inappropriate in Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:23 PM

That was directed at Cruiser, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:27 PM

Dennis Kucinich is the one that most closely represents my views as well. I bucked for him as hard as I could in my 2004 precinct caucus, and I will work for him again. But if Hillary turns out to be the candidate, barring some third party candidate who has a real chance, I will vote for her.

"Enabler?"

Cruiser, I refer you to something that I posted on this thread a week ago:

CLICKY.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Cruiser
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:04 PM

Don,

I read your post last week and I endeavor to read most of the previous posts before I add my comments. I just do not agree with you.

You and others avoid my main point regarding Ms. Clinton's "vast right-wing conspiracy" statement but justifiably ridicule others who post nonsensical conspiracy theories. A nonsensical conspiracy theory is a nonsensical conspiracy theory is a...

Little Hawk,

A third party will likely never be a viable political reality in the USA. The 2 party system is just fine if there are statesmen from both parties who will think problems through in an atmosphere of fairness and with a purpose higher than their political and financial gains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:18 PM

Cruiser, I think you are quite right that a third party will never be viable in the USA. Unfortunate. But true. I think your hypothetical "if" is correct too, but I wonder when we will ever see it happen? The odds against it happening are tremendous, because most decisions come down to money, not fairness or justice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:19 PM

Frankly, I think a third party is the best way to save the country.

         I like Kucinich too, but I don't see any way in the world he could get the nomination.

         I would vote for Hillary unless somebody like Howard Dean or Kucinich was running on a third party ticket. But if that happened, it would most likely just elect a Republican.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:13 PM

Once again, I highly recommend First Democracy : The Challenge of an Ancient Idea, by Paul Woodruff.

If you want to know what a real democracy is (should be) like, and why our present so-called "democracy" is so screwed up, this will answer a lot of your questions. It's a fairly small book and very easy to read.

Is it biased? Yes. In favor of real democracy, as contrasted with what we have now and unwittingly call democracy.

Some folks don't think real democracy is a good idea, though.

By the way, some of it may really surprise you.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:17 PM

You are so right, Don!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:12 AM

The USA may be different, but there is an interesting puzzle in Germany which reminds me the Ms. Clinton electability problem.

When asked directly whether they would ever vote for a woman, a homosexual, an atheist roughly 5 - 10 %(nearer to 5 for a woman, nearer to 10 else) of the German population say never, under no circumstance. But when they actually vote this 5 to 10 % disadvantage disappears completely. Most of our elections are so close that a 10 % difference would mean a sure victory for the other side.

We now have a woman in office and two of our lands are governed by gays. One of them even announced it openly before the election and made the "confession" part of his campaign speech.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:40 PM

Ralph Nader, call your office. This year you just might get heard above the roar and get taken seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM

I take Ralph Nader seriously...I just don't want him to be president.
He has one thing he's good at..let him keep doing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 06:27 PM

If we ever had a Jewish Prime Minister or a Jehovah, I'd be very surprised.

Is your system so different from in the UK? I mean, you don't have Prime ministers elected by the public in general, it's whoever is leader of the party that wins the elction.

I know Michael Howard's lot got hammered here, but that wasn't because he was a Jew, it was because people didn't feel like trusting the Tories.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 06:41 PM

Yes, McGrath, but the party still tends to select a leader who they think will appeal to a broad cross section of the public. (given that though, it's still sometimes rather surprising what unappealing individuals they can come up with)

A Jewish or a JW candidate would be seen as a bit of a risk, and those guys really hate taking risks they don't have to. Similarly, a female candidate for the top job is a bit of a risk. It's been tried once, unsuccessfully.

It can always happen, though, that someone with extraordinary drive and tenacity breaks through such a barrier. Example: Margaret Thatcher in the UK. I detested her, but she was a tough one, no doubt about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 06:42 PM

Our system does have some major differences. There are good & bad things about that. We have no real mechanism for changing govts. except by election...or impeachment. This provides stability and predictability, but means that a 'leader' with 29% approval still is in there for 2 more years.


"Leader of the party" is not really a working concept here. We have "chairman" of the party...who is NOT the candidate, but more like an organizer between elections. It is a bit unusual that Howard Dean, who failed to become the candidate last time, was chosen to be chariman.
Candidates who lose in a National election 'usually' do not get a 2nd chance....for one thing, it's 4-8 years before they can even try, and by then there's a new crop. Kerry, for instance, knows that he collected all this baggage and bad press from NOT winning, and has decided not to try. (Al Gore, with his film, has better ratings, but still probably not enough to win.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 06:46 PM

Hell, Gore already won once. Poor guy.

On the other hand, maybe he was lucky... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 06:51 PM

Yeah...maybe so. Dealing with 9/11 was not easy....but he couldn't have messed it up WORSE than Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:40 PM

BS: Hillary is in the race for President


There goes the neighborhood.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:18 AM

If we ever had a Jewish Prime Minister or a Jehovah, I'd be very surprised.
I think Benjamin Disraeli would be surprised if he could hear you say that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:31 AM

Al Gore would have to distance himself from Joe Lieberman if he wanted to run again this time. The way he distanced himself from Bill Clinton last time, which I always thought was a mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,Don Last
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:58 AM

I (Don) haven't posted much since being hit by lightning, but here I go at last. I believe the other Don is Firth, which sounds like First with a lisp.

If you think you have seen every dirty political trick in the book, Hillary will inspire the last right wing cons to come up with some new ones.
New insults of cheap partisanship from frightened and arrogant Repubs are sesigned to piss people off and further divide and conquer.

Hillary will not even be allowed to sing the National Anthem without intense critisism.

She is called dishonest for listening to public opinion rather than being a "true leader" and do whatever the defense contractors say.

A subliminal example of dirty tricks ocurred in Iowa this week when Senator Clinton appeared before a microphone with huge call letters of the station KUNI. The Roman font extentuated the cross bars on the I so it clearly read KUNT.

It used to be enough to keep populous candidates from running for president by requiring a stack of hundreds dollar bills 20 feet tall - just to campaign.

The usual rumor chants about Hillary include lesbianism and abortions. Now the current unsubstantiated Fox rumor says she hired a dectective to look into Obama's early training in a terrorist Muslim madrasa at the age of 6.

The issues of war and peace, life and death, and the predation of the Earth's enviorment will be overshadowed by issues such as Hillary's menopause that will put the world in danger.

Watch carefully as all the Repuvb sacks of pundits begin to say they were always against the war. I even heard Tucker Carlson say this yesterday while he went on to say that it is a complete TRADGEDY that Jeb Bush's chance for nomination have been dashed.
Well friends, Tradgedy is a pretty strong word but it reminds me of Mel Brooks saying "Tradgedy is when I get a paper cut, Comedy is when YOU fall in an open sewer and drown.

I wish all the comedy on all the sowardly TV War mongers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:42 PM

Wow! I've finally made it big! Elvis has imitators and now I have mine!

I do, however, think that GUEST,Don Last has captured the spirit of modern political in-fighting. Not quite as nasty as the time-honored Renaissance method of dealing with political opponents: a dagger thrust in the dark, a crossbow bolt fired from an upstairs window; but sufficient unto the era is the nastiness thereof.

Don Firth (Firth in the hearts of his countrymen. . . .) has left the building (for now).


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:06 PM

Yes. It is the inevitable sorry result of a political $ySStem based on 2 corrupt and phony parties who are wedded to patronage, bribery, and ruthless competition, all arranged around the ancient principle: "Divide (the public) and conquer (them)"


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: pdq
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM

It would be nice to see a more honest representation of the facts once in a while. George W. Bush has never had approval ratings in the 27-29% range, except for slanted polls based on 500-900 people, usually selected for some bias. His job approval has fallen from over 80% to 53%. Still, that is better than most two term presidents at the same time in their 5th or 6th years in office. Look at Truman and Carter numbers for comparison.

HOW BUSH IS HANDLING HIS JOB:   Approve, 53%

OPINION OF GEORGE W. BUSH:   Favorable, 53%

                      © 2005 Cable News Network LP, LLLP.
                      A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
                      Terms under which this service is provided to you.

Remember, this is from the Clintom News Network.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: tarheel
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:30 PM

i can't wait until each DEM/LIB begins jockeying for position to be the candidate for their party!!!
such dirty politics will have never been seen before...but wait!...then they all hug each other on tv as a UNITY thingy...oh heck...YUK!
who can stand it anyway!
Tar...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:31 PM

Not to excuse the current crop but, the nastiness has actually been around a very long time. I have seen, for example, newspaper articles from the 19th century that were absolutely full of personal insults and attacks on the morals of the political oppostion. I think it is more subtle today which might make it more effective. When I hear or read outlandish claims it is usually pretty easy for me to dismiss them. When those claims are couched in terms that sounds reasonable it makes them harder to discredit.

Most of the negative material now comes from paid advertisements. Back in the day it came in the form of news since papers tended to be mouthpieces for a particular party. It was known which papers were shilling for which parties and I have wondered how much cross party readership there was, in this part of the U.S. an area often had two or three papers from which to choose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:37 PM

George W. Bush has never had approval ratings in the 27-29% range

Oh, I think he has, PDQ. I posted a link to one such report in the Popular Views thread a while ago, reporting on a poll done after the SOU address that was in that range. Characterizing it as "wrong" will not make it so, however. But to be fair I do not recall the number of samples.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:44 PM

The Australian "theage.com.au" opines:

"
Bush's popularity hits new low




US President George Bush's popularity fell to a new low following his state of the nation speech this week, Newsweek has reported in its latest poll.

With two years left in the White House, only 30 per cent of the 1003 people polled said they approved of Bush's job performance, down from a high of 83 per cent approval at the beginning of 2002.

The poll was taken after Bush's annual State of the Union address delivered Tuesday, in which he announced a new Iraq strategy and major initiatives to improve health insurance coverage and to reduce US dependence on foreign oil.

A hefty 71 per cent of those surveyed said Bush would not have enough support over the next two years to "make a difference" in carrying out his decisions, compared with just 21 per cent who said he did.

The poll, which came days after several more politicians made moves to join the 2008 presidential race, including Democratic Senator Hillary Clinton, also tested registered voters on possible matchups in the November 2008 election. ..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,Don Last
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:10 PM

During the State of the Union "speech", FOX network had a real time approval rating of George's speech scrolling on the bottom of the screen for the entire speech.

In the first few moments it read 87% approval.




and it never waivered or changed in any way for the entire speech.


yet there are some people I am sure who fell for the whole thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:22 PM

It's amazing what passes for "news" on Fox.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,Always
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:25 PM

Firth, Last and Always now concur that Amos is correct 99% of the time.

The one thing that Amos is wrong about is his presumption that actual facts, logic and intelliegence is the heart of political planning, discourse, debate and decisions.

You see, Amos is woe to admit the truth regarding politics, and their represetatives the politicians, move only in EMOTIONAL directions and rely very little on facts and logic to obtain the wealth and market share they desire for the ruling class.

As a propogandist, I should know.

PS

Although I am a propogandist, I do not play one on TV.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:48 PM

Almost everyone moves mainly in emotional directions. They cherrypick whatever facts or rumours they can find that support their emotional biases. They ignore or deny or dance around the edges of what don't support 'em.

And the really funny bit is this: they ALL think they are bein' totally objective while they do it.

Chimps, I am sorry to say, are much the same. Gorillas are even worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:03 PM

It looks like fox are worse than either. They shouldn't put disinformation up on the screen like that and call it "news."


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,Don Last
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:06 PM

Cnongo

A recent Chimp experiment created an economy using snack credits to get preferred TV programming.

The number 1 TV programming bought by male chimps were videos of female chimp hindquarters.
#2 was the entire female and #3 were videos of "important" members of the chimp population.



In my opinion:
One can see how far beneath the animal kingdom is to that of human culture and refinement.




PS
this experiment is a fact and not an whimsical parody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:12 PM

Hindquarters #1, eh?

What other options were the chimps given?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:13 PM

I really miss Herman cartoons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:10 PM

His [Bush] job approval has fallen from over 80% to 53%

In which state of altered reality, pray? Or which parallel universe?

Its amazing howt some people can STILL spout this sort of crap with a straight face when it has been proven time and time again to BE utter crap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: heric
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:20 PM

I sayed it before and I'll say it again: In the first poll conducted for Newsweek since the State of the Union last Tuesday, 58 percent of respondents said "they wish the Bush presidency was simply over."   CNN 1/29


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:00 PM

Yeah, Don Last? So what's yer problem? Goin' by that system it sounds to me like the image most guaranteed to sell product to chimps...well, male chimps anyway...would be a shot of the hindquarters of a female chimp who is ALSO considered to be an "important" member of the chimp population.

Like Maizy Allenberg, fer instance. She runs a famous primate cathouse in Nevada. I can get you pics of her hindquarters...for a price.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:16 PM

Did they try the chimps with pictures of Dubya?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:52 PM

Well, I hate to admit it, but there is the odd chimp out there who finds pictures of Dubya...stimulatin'.

And I do mean odd!

I avoid them types like the plague. They are sick. Sufferin' from advanced "cage fever" in all likelihood.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:43 AM

Chief Chimp a Chump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary is in the race for President
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 10:23 AM

So this is why the religious-right-wing-republicans want to get evolution out of the public class room.


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