Hearing your own voice recorded

Subject: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Bee
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:32 PM

I'm sure most of you are old hands who have heard yourselves singing on recordings and are used to it/satisfied with it, but I have not, until very recently, and I've only heard it in sixty second bits on my cheap computer speakers recorded through a dollar store mike.

Now, my friends have always said they like my singing, and even ask me to sing, but they are my friends. Having heard my own voice recorded as above, I'm astounded by how different it sounds than how I hear it while singing, and how much I presently don't like it (although I'm relieved to note I am in tune!).

So, how did you feel about your own voice the first time you heard it played back to you?

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: MMario
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:36 PM

Now, my friends have always said they like my singing, and even ask me to sing, but they are my friends. Having heard my own voice recorded as above, I'm astounded by how different it sounds than how I hear it while singing, and how much I presently don't like it

that about sums it up.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Shaneo
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:51 PM

Very surprised was how I felt , the recording sounded completely different that what I here when I sing

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: fat B****rd
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:54 PM

The last time I recorded anything was for a kids Xmas party "Santa Rap". My friend with bedroom studio kindly made me sound like the Chipmunks with a sore throat. Prior to that very so-so.
I must go along with your second paragraph, Bee. But don't give up.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Schantieman
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:54 PM

In my (somewhat limited) experience, the equipment does make a difference.

I used, years ago, to record my singing on a cheap cassette tape recorder - and it was, as you say, awful. More recently - well, 10 or more years ago now, I shudder to realise - I made a demo CD with just 4 tracks on it, using all the proper super duper digital systems (DAT to CD) and felt that the product was much more like my real voice. A month ot two ago I recorded one song on a CD using the most up to date computer-based system, as was astonished to hear coming back at me something that sounded exactly like what I hear when I sing.

So - don't despair: maybe your friends are telling the truth!   The way to tell, I reckon, is to listen to the intensity and duration of the applause when you've finished.

Steve

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:05 PM

I hate my voice either way!

But it's the only one I've got so I just have to make the best of it.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Bee
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:06 PM

Thanks, all, especially Shantieman, regarding recording quality - the quality I most noted was that it reminded me of some old, old 78 rpm records I've heard!

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Elettra
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:18 PM

The first time I remember being recorded and hearing my own voice was when I was 16. A friend knew a guy who worked for RCA records and he recorded a demo of me, in a construction-office trailer with a window-unit air conditioner blowing full blast in the background. It was dreadful and I cried every time I thought about it for the next week - I sounded as if I were singing on the deck of a ship in a full-blown gale. Later recordings (30 years later, YIKES) have eased the teenage angst of that experience but I never sound like I think I do, no matter how often I hear myself. I'm always surprised at the way I pronounce certain words. And no, RCA did not sign me...:~( .
E.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: yrlancslad
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:30 PM

I still wince every time I hear myself singing and try not to listen to my published CD's. Every so often I do go back to them thinking they can't be as bad as I remember them but they are.All this in contradiction to the feedback I get live and not preventing me from going into the studios again this month-so keep plugging away- danger probably lies in being satisfied with what you hear.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:34 PM

I used to dislike my voice, but since I lost it I listen to old recordings and wish I had it back. It really wasn't that bad.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:40 PM

My doctor once told me you can't hear yourself as others do. Since the ear drums are inside the same device producing the sound but at a distance from it, there's a vibratory connection that slurs the tone.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Bee
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:44 PM

I'm finding a vibratory dis-connection, in that apparently I have a slight natural vibrato going on that I cannot hear while singing. I very much would like to get that under control, but wonder how if I can't hear it while I'm singing.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Elettra
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:55 PM

I had too much vibrato going on, and my voice teacher told me to try to feel it rather than trying to hear it, which helped some. Maybe it would work the same way in your case.
E.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:04 PM

Coupla comments: 1) Almost any time you listen to a recording of yourself - whether singing or playing an instrument - immediately after making the recording, it will not sound as good as it did to you as you were singing or playing - give it a day or two, then listen to it; 2) I forget what the second comment was. Oh yeah - the quality of the equipment can make a tremendous difference, for the voice and certain instruments in particular, e.g. violin.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:36 PM

applause and comments when you go to the bar does it for me.
Sal

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Elettra
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:43 PM

Well said, Sal. Most of us are our own toughest critic.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM

Bee, that is a very common experience for singers. If people like your voice, then go with the flow.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: guitar
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM

I just don't like hearing my own voice because I think I not a very good singer, Some people I know say I'm good at singing, and I can also play guitar well. However I don't think I'm that good.

tom

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Scoville
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:57 PM

I sound like a four-year-old (probably what Iris DeMent would sound like if she couldn't sing), which is weird because I think of myself as having a fairly low voice. I can't sing very well, anyway--I really have no business on a recording. But I've had people record me so they could learn a song and I'm always shocked at how childlike I sound.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: fat B****rd
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:31 PM

Bee, there are people here who would love to sound like old 78 rpm records.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Bee
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:43 PM

Keep it coming, 'catters, and I shall soon think I sound like a veritable opera star. Scoville, be happy - I sound much older than that: but of course, I am. Fat b., I expect that's a smallish audience.

Seriously, good advice; Elettra I'll try that.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:38 PM

Bee

When you're listening to a recording of yourself you tend to hear the bits that weren't quite right. There's a big difference between singing to a live audience, unrecorded, where mistakes won't really be noticed, and having it recorded for posterity, when errors stick out like sore thumbs!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Gizmo
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:47 PM

I have the same problem as you Scoville - I hear my recordings played back - and it don't sound like me.

On the plus side, I try to avoid any recordings taken, if they are happening I don't want to know, then I relax into the song more - which sounds better than when I counsciously know I'm being recorded.

Either way - I hate the way I sing.

Others don't hate the way I sing (or so they say)

I don't even know if I'm good or not - or if people are just being kind......

Wow what a whirl of thoughts.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: black walnut
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:55 PM

Kendall - I have one of your recordings and reading your post above is hear-wrenching. I can't begin to imagine what it's like for you to not have your (WONDERFUL!!!) voice. You just take those kinds of things for granted until you lose the ability altogether.

I just finished recording my 2nd children's CD. The first time I recorded, it was very difficult to listen to my own voice and to judge things well. This time around I was much more relaxed about how I sound to others, and I was more relaxed and judged the process more fairly I think.   This time I was able to appreciate that it isn't just 'being in tune' that matters, it's more about how it feels, how it comes across as a musical language, and how everything fits together with the instruments as well.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:55 PM

There IS a very real reason why you don't like, or even recognize your own voice, and it has to do with physics:

When you listen to someone elses voice, all your sound comes through your ears. When you "hear" yourself, you actually are hearing yourself TWO ways, one through your ears, but much more importantly, through your own bones. And, your skull is full of holes, sinus cavities, etc. It's these various sized and shaped "resonance chambers" that give your voice it's characteristics.

So you hear more of you than the outsider hears. And, it also takes some serious hours of training to recognise the sound of your voice from a recording, let alone to learn to "like" it. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:56 PM

I was amazed at how well my low voice and my high voice integrated across the break-point-- that no matter what I was doing in my throat to produce the sound, it all sounded like one seamless voice on playback no matter what range I sang in, even the real low growly stuff.

It also sounded more cheerful than I might have thought.

I still don't like listening to it, but I did benefit from using a monitor at home occasionally to play with and practice with. You can learn a lot about mic-handling if you do that, and then use the mic to your best advantage when you have one.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Rowan
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:11 PM

I'd been singing around campfires for years before anyone bothered to tape anything with me in it and I'd always thought of myself as having no accent at all. One summer vac I worked as the despatch/storeman for the distributors of National (Panasonic, these days) electronics gear in Melbourne so I thought I'd take advantage of some of the equipment lying around the sales reps offices as demo models. I didn't sing; just spoke a few sentences.

So it wasn't the quality of the gear that caused me to be shocked by the broadness and 'outback' Australianness of my accent that I heard from the tape. Later, when I was married to an audiologist, I found out about the fact that your ears pick up external sounds not just via the canal but also through the bony structures around the ears. Blockages of either of these can affect the quality of what you call 'hearing'. Internally generated sounds like speech and singing are also affected by sinuses and other bony structures in the skull and create other effects on how you hear those sounds.

On top of this, your spoken voice is usually different from your singing voice, even at the beginning. As you become more proficient at singing, the differences between your two voices can become even more marked, unless you train one or both. The training can be quite unconscious. If you listen to lots of singing done in what some might call 'regional dialects' that are different from your own, you may find that, when you sing the same songs, you voice is reproducing some of the characteristics of that (or those) dialects even though you're not conscious of it; listeners with a good ear can pick it up though.

And, if you do a lot of recording, your own voice becomes one of these dialects when you hear it back; this can also change some of your 'expression', again, without you necessarily trying to do so.

Go for it!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:21 PM

Thank you so much bw. That's so nice to hear.

Fact is, you don't need a great voice to sing folk songs. The message is more important than the messenger.

To show you how brave I am, I'm putting together a collection of old stuff I recorded before and just before my voice went south. I cringe when I hear the last of them, but I've been talked into it, so stand by for a ram!

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Bee
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:29 PM

Good luck, Kendall - in a way I've just 'found' my voice, and can't imagine what it would be like to lose it.

And regarding accents - that surprised me as well; how much of my Cape Breton and family roots is revealed in my voice. Now I'm curious about what people from Benbecula sound like, speaking, as that's where pretty much seven eighths of our direct ancestors came from.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Genie
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 05:52 PM

The first time I heard my recorded (speaking) voice was on a reel-to-reel tape recorder back in the early 1950s, and I was horrified how bad it sounded!

Today's recording technology has advanced to where my voice, speaking or singing, doesn't sound that bad to me even when recorded on a cheap cassette recorder.   Still, I am amazed how different my singing sounds when recorded in a decent studio, as compared with just singing into a garden variety tape recorder. And I don't mean because of "ProTooling."    My home recording devices have tone control, reverb, etc., on them, too, but I never sound on them the way I sound to myself when singing. But recordings done even in "garage studios" do pretty much sound the way I sound to myself.   Same goes for live recordings, where the settings aren't adjusted much for each new performer at the open mic, etc.
(They CAN sound a lot BETTER, if they are tweaked a lot, but that isn't usually done.
I just think that we now have recording instruments and techniques that can capture pretty much the way your voice would sound in a concert hall with good acoustics.)

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Jim Lad
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:00 PM

I sound much better in my own mind.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: terrier
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:23 PM

I sound great in the bath. ;o)

And I thought it was just me who couldn't stand the sound of my own voice!

Also, the perception of sound extends to the instrument your playing (if your'e playing one,apart from your voice) Times when I've played for a recording and thought I'd done 'a good job', when I've listened to the playback, I've been less than pleased with the result even though it sounded ok to me when I played it.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Bee
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 09:32 PM

Actually, the guitar playing sounded better than I expected, technique wise, but rather thin... hmmm... as did my voice.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Scoville
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 10:03 PM

Heh heh--if I play guitar I drown out my voice, which is probably an improvement.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 10:31 PM

Scoville, this musician I know is wonderful. She has been in bands for years and now since she is married, she sings with him. She writes wonderful songs too. Believe it or not, she told me that she doesn't like the sound of her voice, that she has no soul, that she sounds like a kid. So she started singing in lower keys - and found her 'soul'.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: JohnB
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 11:54 PM

1 Use better gear, it will DEFINITELY help with the "thinness".
2 Do more recording and listen to it more.
I'm not sure if it's your voice which improves or you just get more used to the funny things you are hearing.

JohnB (who sounds to himself when recorded like some dumb colloquial nerd and when he goes back to England from Canada they tell me how American I sound)

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:13 AM

The best story I heard on the subject of hearing your own voice is told by a local publican about an incident just after portable tape recorders became popular.
A singing session used to take place here in Clare in his pub and a visitor brought along a tape recorder.
One old singer (80+), not knowing he was being recorded, sang a song, then immediately after it went out to the toilet. When he came back the visitor was playing the recording he had just made.
The old man stood at the door listening intently and when it had finished he said, "word perfect, but he's got the tune wrong".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:27 AM

I've been recorded in a studio playing guitar and singing on separate tracks (not together in real time, but separately), instead of at the same time as you do live, which I always find difficult to get used to. But the end results seem to sound OK to other people, even though when you listen to it yourself, you probably notice any slight imperfections, or think "I could do that better if I had another crack at it".

I think you just have to accept it, that any recording is a snapshot and not necessarily the best you've ever done. Every now and then, a live performance you do seems to you the best ever, and you wish it had been recorded. But if it had been, the chances are you would listen to it and find something wrong.

Best not to worry about it, as others have said, and just enjoy doing it all - recording, singing/playing live, the applause and the craic :-)

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:34 AM

I hate hearing my recorded self sing solo. I sound like a 6yr old. In my head, when I'm actually singing, it's a reasonably pleasant mezzo range that has been described as 'rich and fruity'... so I'm not the only one hearing that; why do I sound like a small boy when recorded solo?

In group recordings, even though I'm not trying to outsing everyone else there, I can always pick myself out of the crowd, as can my friends and those who hear me sing often. When I AM trying to outsing everyone else, what I remember as being full bodied and well supported, comes across as quite thin and reedy. Weird, the things your head does isn't it.

I've been recorded professionally (by the BBC no less!) singing in group and speaking solo, but never recorded singing solo. It would be interesting (and one of my life-list ambitions) to have a professional recording of me singing solo....

LTS

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:57 AM

Deckman's hit the nail on the head - all the resonances of our skull bones and sinuses make what we hear quite different to what the audience hears. You get a hint of it with the sean nos singer's trick of pressing hard on the back underside of the ear to close the canal; try it while singing and your voice will sound very different. You may, however, be better able to pitch like that.
The reason we sing better in the bath is that our bathrooms also resonate a lot - all those shiny surfaces and the echoes that scatter and bounce around are very kind to the voice - which is why karaoke machines always have the reverb turned right up.
And the reason why a lot of recordings sound awful is because the microphone doesn't pick up those resonances - all it gets is the flat tone 'straight from the horse's mouth'. You need a recording engineer to add the 'life' to the sound.
None of which helps me - I just hate hearing my own voice, whether I've heard it on dictaphones and on pro studio decks. I'm just glad that other people seem to like it!
And kendall, I can still hear you sing in my head - having heard you in the UK some years back. Like a good wine, that voice keeps well! Thank you.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

I always avoided being recorded when singing as I felt that my voice was not good. My kids would get embarrassed when I sang and later a friend tended to use constructive criticism when discussing my singing but that just left me with less confidence than ever.

The first time I heard myself singing was the recording that Ebbie made during the Saturday night concert at the Getaway in 2005. Granted, I was using a mike and had the best accompanist possible (Kendall playing guitar)but I was pleasantly surprised that I stayed in tune and did some justice to the song. I know I don't always sound that good, sometimes it comes down to choice of songs.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Flash Company
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:16 AM

I remember my late lamented Father saying, the first time I recorded him, 'That isn't me, I haven't got a Manchester accent!'
He had travelled the world and lived out of Manchester about 35 years at the time, but , as they say, you can't take Manchester out of the lad.

FC

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Gizmo
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:18 PM

Maybe it's the recordings - no matter how good the technology is, the sound produced, is just that - a replica - not the real deal.

Liz - I have heard your singing, and I can say truly that I have never thought you to sound like a 6 yr old. Granted, you can reach the top notes with seemingly no effort at all, but I find your voice to be rich and soulful, and not at all weedy and weak.

Perhaps it is beacause I have heard you sing live, and I always feel that when you sing live the songs become a form in themselves. A good singer (does not have to be in tune) will convey the ultimate message, not just through the words sung, but the energy emitted from the singing/playing etc.

I know that I am much better at performing live than being recorded. I prefer the atmosphere, the audience interaction etc. I also know that I sound better on a live recording than I do in a studio.

Perhaps we hear our recorded selves differently than what everyone else hears. There are many I hear on tape, who have a completely different timbre to their voice when live - maybe it's nerves, maybe it's the technology who knows.

Once I done a live gig with my brother and some others that were on a music course. I remember not having the full confidence in playing the guitar part of the song I was singing. I was also convinced during the performance that I was playing the wrong notes, as the sound was awful compared with my brothers notes.

When we listened to the live show playback - I apologised to everyone and felt awful for my bad playing, then all of a sudden it became clear that it was not MY playing that was wrong but my brothers who had just been making comments about my bad playing. I have to say, he rarely says anything about my playing now - neither good things or bad.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Bee
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:15 PM

I'm very glad I started this thread. I was feeling a bit depressed about my singing, and now, after reading all these great explanations and personal stories and science and advice, I feel as enthusiastic as ever. I'll be singing to some seniors in a couple weeks, and hopefully will have enough confidence to do two songs by meself. T'anks, eh, you 'catters. ;-)

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: autolycus
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:28 PM

I prefer my voice as I hear it. Everyone else gets a poor deal.

   i've wondered if technology will ever find a way to be able to record what the speaker/singer can hear.

   Who knows. Football's a funny game.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:41 PM

Gosh... Gizmo... *blush* ... Thanks.

LTS

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: GUEST,Claire
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:06 PM

I can totally relate to this thread. Yes, the voice I hear in my head is generally more rich and resonant than what comes out of my mouth. When I did my first cd 2001, I was amazed at the little girl sound and the lack of control in my lower register. But beyond that, the whole sound was different than I had expected and I sounded just like my sister, which was very funny.... how did my sister sneak into the recording studio??? Naturally having a light tone, I have been working on breath control and building my lower register ever since. My band is just finishing our 3rd cd and it is definitely better. I feel at ease in the studio and like I am working not diving off a cliff like I did on the first one. Still, as my voice teacher once said - you have the voice you have and some poeple have a mazarati, while others have deep sea vessel.

I guess I am just more used to hearing myself too. However, when I hear a live performance, I often cringe because I have highexpections and lots of little things slip by in a stage performance. These are not acceptable on a cd, so it is important to have the ability to control your voice enough to match tones and emotional timbre when patching in over goofs.

I guess, my thought is that if you hear things you don't like in your singing, they are probably there, but that doesn't mean they have to stay there. You can improve and recording yourself and listening is the very best way to do it. That said, I completely agree with BW that it is not the perfection in your singing but the intangible quality of heart feltness or lightness or whatever your song is conveying that matters in the end. Even while we all work toward better singing, it is important to realize that communicating is why we do it and any sort of voice can be beautiful in that regard.

Claire

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:59 AM

The voice in my head tells me to leave the room every time I hear a recording of myself. Nice to know that so many of us are just as uncomfortable with our own voices.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:38 AM

Here's the thing about hearing your voice recoreded (on good quality equipment) for the first time. The other voices and sounds that were in the background sounded just as normal as unrecorded. But then I heard this nasaly voice, low and clipped off on word endings and my first thought was "Who was that?" and then the revelation!!!! AAAAAAGh, THAT WAS ME! What a shock! I felt like I should never speak again, let alone, try to sing.

But the fun and funny thing about it is that when you begin to work with recording and using it as a feedback you come more in tune with the reality of your voice and you begin to make improvements.

The phenomenon points out the subjective aspect of life in general. We all experience ourselves differently than others experience us. The idea of blind spots comes to mind. We all have them and we are NOT the best judges of ourselves in certain areas. That's why we need honest and open friends to give us honest feedback. Stow the pride factor and learn. Sharpen ALL your skills, not just your singing.

Subject: RE: Hearing your own voice recorded
From: GUEST,Claire
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 10:23 AM

Yes, that is right. If you hear them on the recording - that is indeed what you sound like. You can improve vastly by listening to yourself and recording again and again. Try using a good minidisk (no distortion) to practice your material. When you listen to yourself, you will naturally focus on all the bad things, not the good things at first. The shock of hearing yourself takes a while to wear off, but eventually you get used to your overall sound and can better control your voice to do what you want. Breath control always seems to be key, but also controling the area of resonance and your enunciation can vastly change the way you sound.

Here is another thing to think about. In a recording, you want to sound personal - like you are right there with the person - sitting in the living room. This quiet and personal singing style is often not the usual for those people that regularly sing to an audience in a loud a pub or on a stage. So when you record yourself that might be one reason it sounds a bit off to you. We all expect ourselved to sound like a cd, not like our regular selves sitting in the living room.

Take comfort in the fact that live performances have visuals - your presence on stage, your connection with the song, your comfort level, so even if the vocal isn't perfect - it may seem wonderful to your audience.

I hope these thoughts are helpful, Claire