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Sailing routes to Botany Bay

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BOTANY BAY
BOTANY BAY (3)
BOTANY BAY 2
JIM JONES (BOTANY BAY)


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Abby Sale 26 Jan 07 - 09:54 AM
IanC 26 Jan 07 - 09:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jan 07 - 10:01 AM
bubblyrat 26 Jan 07 - 10:15 AM
GUEST 26 Jan 07 - 04:03 PM
Barry Finn 26 Jan 07 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Salty 26 Jan 07 - 08:38 PM
Liz the Squeak 26 Jan 07 - 09:11 PM
Hrothgar 27 Jan 07 - 04:49 AM
Kevin Sheils 27 Jan 07 - 05:09 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 27 Jan 07 - 07:43 AM
Bunnahabhain 27 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM
bubblyrat 27 Jan 07 - 08:25 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 27 Jan 07 - 08:40 AM
Schantieman 27 Jan 07 - 11:23 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 27 Jan 07 - 11:30 AM
bubblyrat 27 Jan 07 - 12:04 PM
Barry Finn 27 Jan 07 - 01:32 PM
Abby Sale 27 Jan 07 - 01:58 PM
HipflaskAndy 28 Jan 07 - 01:24 PM
Barry Finn 28 Jan 07 - 03:31 PM
Rowan 28 Jan 07 - 05:58 PM
Kevin Sheils 29 Jan 07 - 04:31 AM
HipflaskAndy 29 Jan 07 - 05:19 AM
IanC 29 Jan 07 - 06:17 AM
bubblyrat 29 Jan 07 - 06:53 AM
Kevin Sheils 29 Jan 07 - 07:07 AM
Schantieman 29 Jan 07 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,ib48 29 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM
Barry Finn 29 Jan 07 - 04:56 PM
Abby Sale 29 Jan 07 - 10:15 PM
EBarnacle 29 Jan 07 - 10:36 PM
HipflaskAndy 30 Jan 07 - 04:46 AM
HipflaskAndy 30 Jan 07 - 12:24 PM
EBarnacle 30 Jan 07 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,Gongoozler 30 Jan 07 - 01:57 PM
Barry Finn 30 Jan 07 - 02:55 PM
HipflaskAndy 30 Jan 07 - 03:44 PM
EBarnacle 30 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM
Greg B 30 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM
HipflaskAndy 30 Jan 07 - 06:15 PM
Schantieman 30 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM
EBarnacle 30 Jan 07 - 06:41 PM
Barry Finn 30 Jan 07 - 07:07 PM
Rowan 30 Jan 07 - 08:33 PM
Barry Finn 01 Feb 07 - 09:00 PM
Abby Sale 01 Feb 07 - 10:31 PM
HipflaskAndy 02 Feb 07 - 04:36 AM
bubblyrat 02 Feb 07 - 05:06 AM
GUEST,EBarnacle 02 Feb 07 - 11:45 PM
Fergie 27 Feb 11 - 08:03 PM
Fergie 28 Feb 11 - 08:24 PM
Les from Hull 28 Feb 11 - 08:36 PM
Fergie 28 Feb 11 - 08:49 PM
Les from Hull 28 Feb 11 - 09:37 PM
Les from Hull 28 Feb 11 - 09:45 PM
Fergie 03 Mar 11 - 08:06 PM
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Subject: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Abby Sale
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:54 AM

As All know, the English first settled Australia at Botany Bay today, on Jan 26, 1788. Naturally, I sang "Jim Jones" ("Botany Bay") at the local this week. (Yes, we understand there never was and actual penal colony at Botany Bay but who cares?) [Hu do? Yu do.]

A question was raised of the many I cannot answer but have faith Barry or others can.

What routes did they take to Botany Bay or other Australia ports later. I know such clipper lines as the later Black Ball had regular runs but now how. It was suggested that they might actually have had to round both the Cape and the Horn to get there and home.

?


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: IanC
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:56 AM

Cape of Good Hope ... you can come back that way too.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:01 AM

Pete bellamy gave the route in his Transports.
Down the African coast to the Cape he said.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: bubblyrat
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:15 AM

Round the Cape of Good Hope,there and back,I would have thought----Though God knows how long it would have taken a Convict Transport to get there. Wasn"t there a docu-drama about it recently,about a ship-load of female prisoners who were married off to some of the crew ?? By the time of the great Tea-Clippers,of course,--ships like Ariel,Taeping, Thermopylae, Cutty Sark etc. , the journey was much faster: in the right conditions, they could make 17 knots !! Which is only one knot less than a Royal Navy vessel on "Passage Speed" today !!


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:03 PM

bubblyrat
You're probably thinking of the Lady Juliana which was the first convict ship with women prisoners - see the book "Floating Brothel" published several years ago.
The first fleet left England in May 1787 and dropped anchor in Botany Bay on the 26th January 1788. The Lady Juliana sailed from Plymouth in July 1789 and disembarked her prisoners on the 11th of June 1790 almost a year later after calling for fresh provisions at Tenerife; Rio de Janiero and the Cape of Good Hope - just as the first fleet had done before her.
I think that the fastest trip out was by a quite small ship called the Amazon which took about four and a half months.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:55 PM

Hi Abby, how are you?

I would think, but don't know for sure that rounding the Cape of Good Hope (the GOOD cape) would've been the best route, lengthwise, timewise, comfortwise & weatherwise.
I believe it's a downwind sail if leaving England to Cape Verde to the coast of Brazil then a southwest run from there to the Cape and a westerly run from the Cape to Botany Bay. So you be running with the wind all the way following always following the trades. An east to west run around Cape Horn is against the trades to you'd be beating into the winds as the wind down their blows west to east all the way plus it's a far greater distance.

The return voyage would offer a better case for rounding Cape Horn depending on the time of year but it still seems the same route back would be prefreable going a bit north to Madagascar& south to round the Cape then beat round the Cape & follow the trades that blow north off the coast of Africa back to Cape Verde then north to the outside of the Canaries & the Azores & home again.

Hope we get to seeing each other soon. Now that you're halfway north will we be seeing you at Mystic this year? All my best.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: GUEST,Salty
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:38 PM

Was you ever round Cape Horn? Where the weather's never warm, wish to god you'd never been born, riding on a donkey?
Way Hey And Away We Go
Saltman


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:11 PM

No, but I've been to Botany Bay.. it's a pub in Dorset!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Hrothgar
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 04:49 AM

First port of call was Rio de Janiero, then Capetown, then east to and along the south coast of Australia.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 05:09 AM

This thread made me recall that I've often wondered why the small community on the NW edge of London between Enfield and Potters Bar was called Botany Bay as it is well inland and nowhere near a bay, although there are nurseries nearby so the botanical connection is there.

Apparently, checking the Oxford Dictionary of London Place Names, it's not a historic name and I believe first appeared on maps in 1819. The place was named after the Australian settlement as it was considered to be fairly remote and you might as well be going to Botany Bay.

Not relevant to this thread but it reminded me to clear up a nagging question.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:43 AM

I doubt that I'm telling the folks in this thread anything they didn't already know, but just in case: A must-read on this topic is "The Fatal Shore" by Robert Hughes (who nearly cashed in his cookies recently in a car crash). It's detailed and comprehensive, but also beautifully written and a fantastic, interesting read - something of a feat, considering the almost unrelieved grimness of his subject matter. It's long, though - Bible-thin pages and small typeface. But well worth it.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

Do have a listen to Peter Bellamy's Transports. It's rather good. There a re-issue by free-reed music about, with the original and a new set of recordings, with a good sized book, which is well worth digging out for, assuming you can't borrow it off someone....


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: bubblyrat
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 08:25 AM

Dear Kevin---Actually,it got its name from the first -ever commercial transaction carried out on the Internet,and is,in fact,a corruption of " Bought on E-Bay ".


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 08:40 AM

LOL, Rat!! :-0

I think you're onto something with the commercial transaction idea, considering that Botany Bay was named by a man called Banks.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Schantieman
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 11:23 AM

What Barry said.

Sailing ships could only make limited progress to windward (no nearer than about five points (56 degrees) or so) and what with leeway would make scarcely any ground upwind, especially in heavy weather. So rounding the Horn E to W was a bit of a feat unless you were lucky and found a lull or even (rare) an easterly. There are even cases, I believe, of masters who'd tried it, been beaten back and went the other way round to get to the Pacific.

We tend to forget in these days of high-aspect rigs and high pointing angles (as close as 30 degrees) the sailing to windward is hard work!

Steve


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 11:30 AM

Am I right in thinking that Bligh tried to take the Bounty round that way and was stalled for about a month? What happened next, did he finally get through or was he forced to retrace his steps? I have only a bare fragment of memory about this and am not a maritime historian -


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: bubblyrat
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:04 PM

Lieutenant Bligh,of His Majesty"s Armed Vessel,"Bounty",was,I think ,trying to get to his destination,(The Friendly Islands ?) by the shortest route,but shortest wasn"t necessarily fastest in those days ,for the technical reasons explained already by Schantieman !! Bligh obstinately stuck to his plan until forced to admit defeat trying to "round" the Horn,after many,many,days of,basically,hazarding his ship.The ship would have inevitably sustained damage,was bound to have "Sprung" and been taking in water,so Bligh was forced to go about and head East.He eventually reached his destination after a very long voyage,which probably did little to help the morale of the crew, not that he or anyone else gave a stuff about that sort of thing in those days !!What happened after that ??Well, there was a mutiny,Bligh & some of the crew were set adrift in a longboat,they reached Batavia(Dutch East Indies ) after history-making,epic,voyage, Bligh got a slap on the wrist for losing his ship,made Admiral and became Governor of New South Wales,or somewhere like that,in Australia !! The Bastard !!


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:32 PM

Became Governor & then had another mutiny on his hands to deal with. History hasn't been kind to Bligh, not that he deserved kindness but as a ship's master he was probably no better or worst than the rest of those at his time. He was in ship's sense a very knowledgeable commander & an excellent navigator. He was an officer under Cook & it seems that any one who served with Cook & went on to further their career in the Royal Navy & served with distinction.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Abby Sale
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:58 PM

Egad, I'd love to get to Mystic. If not this year then I'll be there next year even if I have to roller skate the whole way.

I can see the Outward voyage is pretty set, thanks. Perhaps there were choices about Homeward, depending on the season.

Kevin Sheils:
I think there are many Botany Bays. Bays where there are plants. Anyway, there's one on the western bit of St Thomas. Unfortunately, we couldn't get to it by road so I don't know if there's a penal colony there.

AIR, Bligh tried three times to go 'round before he quit. Not goofball by any means, heroic attempts. He was under orders to hurry. No one's ever questioned that he was one of England's greatest sailors. He was also a far better (and vastly more observant & sympathetic) "anthropologist" than his idol, Cook. Had some bad press, bit of bad luck and staggeringly poor judgement in choice of subordinants. Three mutinies against him.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:24 PM

I extensively researched the Lady Juliana's trip to Botany Bay for my song 'The Floating Brothel'.
That was the first ship to take exclusively female prisoners over to the newly established colony.
The book of the same name (by Sian Rees) is comprehensive in its detail (Sian being a descendant of one of the ladies taken on that trip and one ofher sources being the log and memoirs of one of the crew.
It cites the main stop-off ports (after a few around the Enlish coast picking up prisoners, as Tenerife, Cape Verde, Recife, Rio then Capetown afore heading east for Oz.
Barry Finn up above has it spot on - for this trip, ships followed the trade winds and rounded just the one Cape.
all the best - Duncan
(lyric/song can be found on http://www.duncanmcfarlane.co.uk by the way)


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:31 PM

Really nice job on the song HipflaskAndy & nicely resaerched, I'd love to hear the music. Can you tell me what you're refering to as the "orlop deck" in the line "the sleeping shelves of the orlop deck"
& what are the sleeping shelves? I'm thinking that the sleeping shelves might be a sort of bunc the can be folded up along the ship's side (instead of slung hammocks) in stacks of maybe three high & when used droped down & suspended for a chain hund from above which might mean the deck was a covered deck even if temporary? Anyway thanks for the input here, very interesting.

Abby, forget the roller skates. If you're not there this year, next year I'm going down there to drag you up. Love to see you again.

Thanks
Barry


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:58 PM

The comments above (across the South Atlantic and then east around the African Cape, then return by basically the same route) are correct for convict times. After the opening of Suez affected the tea clippers (which had also gone from China, southwestwards to the African Cape) most were diverted to the wool trade from Australia. I think Cutty Sark had the fastest passage from Lands End to Sydney (~63 days?). She also had the fastest return, in the last head-to-head race with Thermoplylae, which went via the Horn. Sydney - Horn, 23 days; Horn - London, 50 days.

Bligh's troubles compare interestingly with the other famous passages round the Horn, that all went westwards; from Magellan, de Torres & Drake, to Joshua Slocum, the relatively forgotten "first solo circumnavigator". Who also called in at Sydney, rather than Botany Bay.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:31 AM

I Like Bubblyrat's ebay comment above.

And I can understand That there are many Botany Bays, as Abby said, where there are Bays and plants. The one near London doesn't really fit logically though, not even a prison as far as I could tell passing through it on a bus.

Although there is a rather a posh looking English School there (I would use the words public school but that has the completely opposite meaning this side of the pond to the US one, as many of you will know) and they can, I believe, resemble a penal colony.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:19 AM

>>>Cheers Barry - concerning your......'Can you tell me what you're refering to as the "orlop deck" in the line "the sleeping shelves of the orlop deck" & what are the sleeping shelves?'.........
There are so many variations of definition - here's a few...

In a ship with four or more decks: the lowest deck, forming a covering for the hold.
Etymology: 15c: from Dutch overloop covering, from overloopen to run or spill over.

The orlop deck is the lowest deck in a ship. It is the deck or part of a deck where the cables are stowed, usually below the water line. It has been suggested the name originates from "overlooping" of the cables.
It has also been suggested that the name is a corruption of "overlap," referring to an overlapping, balcony-like half deck occupying a portion of the ship's lowest deck space.

Orlop deck, the deck or part of a deck where the cables are
stowed, usually below the water line.

Orlop deck.
The lowest deck of a ship, lying on the beams of the hold and named from the Dutch word for "overlap" because it overlaps the hold. The ship's cables and supplies were stored on the orlop deck, and the purser and carpenter often had offices here, near their supplies. Below the waterline, this was also the site of the powder magazine, and sometimes the stuffy quarters for gunners,
boatswains, carpenters, and midshipmen. Originally, the orlop deck was the single floor or deck covering the hold of a ship; with the additions of decks above, the orlop became the lowest deck of a ship of the line and was not usually called a "deck." When a ship had two complete levels these were called orlop and deck; when three floors, they were orlop, lower, and upper deck; when four floors, orlop, lower, middle, and upper deck.
(quoted from A Sea of Words)

>>>The shelves were just that - wooden shelves with thin straw mattresses. er, sadly in our chequered history (slave trade), such shelves would be well crammed and without mattresses - but by all accounts, the women on board the Julian never had such good conditions! The fresh air and washing facilities allowed - the regular meals... all far better than the poverty which got em put in the rather nasty prison conditions of the day! Get the book - it's a fine read!

I'd love to hear the music.

>>>email me via m'website - see above - I'll email you an mp3 of the track - y'never know - if ya like it, ya may wanna invest in an album! (wotta-cheek!) - but that wasnae why I posted here - honest!

Anyway thanks for the input here, very interesting.

>>>that's what I hoped! - Cheers - Duncan


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: IanC
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 06:17 AM

Some useful history here ... gives the routes, stopping points etc. for the voyage of Governor Phillip to Botany Bay in 1789 with 6 prison transports.

:-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 06:53 AM

Kevin---- In the English popular imagination, "posh" public schools are regarded as Anal,rather than Penal, colonies,judging by the memoirs of the prople who went to them !!!


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:07 AM

Maybe I spelt Penal wrongly!


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Schantieman
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 12:42 PM

The orlop deck is the lowest above the hold. In a three-deck man-o-war it was below the lower gun deck with its 32-pounders, so not terribly restful in battle for the unfortunate victims thereof who were patched/sawn up down there.

Also the site of the (tiny) cabins of the Warrant Officers: carpenter, sailmaker, gunnner etc.; the magazine and (midships & fwd) the cable tier (as mentioned above).   Pretty similar in merchantmen I imagine, but without quite so much noise, blood and gunpowder. Or so many cabins, since they typically had only a Master, Mate and Second Mate.   So I guess it was used for further stowage space. Maybe there was no deck there - just a massive hold from the ship's bottom up to the upper deck. Probably depended on what the ship was designed to carry.

You can now tour the orlop and hold on the VICTORY at Portsmouth, a tour well worth doing.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM

turn left at portsmouth and follow the king seagull to just right of bollocky ridge.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:56 PM

Thanks again HipflaskAndy. It seems that they were thought of as less than cargo. The least ventilated area on a ship, might as well slung a hammock above the bilge. The heavy moist stink would've been hell on a decent nose too.

e-mailing shortly.

Thanks IanC for the link, what a fasinating account.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Abby Sale
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:15 PM

Good job, HipflaskAndy. Good song, too. And entered to the Happy File.

I guess that's it & just in time for the club tomorrow night.

But a detail - if they follow the trades out, why aren't the winds against them homeward? I don't get that.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:36 PM

The trade winds occurred in certain latitudes. The anti-trades would be found in other lats, allowing return voyages without having to round the Horn. Part of the reason the Horn was notorious for wicked seas and horrendous winds was that there are no bodies of land in the latitudes other than the southern part of South America and the Palmer Peninsula. As they are geologically part of the same ridge, the water is relatively shallower than the deeper part of the ocean. As such the constricted flow of water creates a situation analogous to the surf rising off a beach as the water becomes shallow.

When possible, captains with perishable cargoes preferred to go quickly and more safely with the warmer winds and the relatively brief exposure to the Southern Oceans off the Cape of Good Hope.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:46 AM

Cheers Barry and Abby S
Bit stumped trying to stick the song on my website - there's other music there, but that particular song won't upload!
I wonder if I've reached overload point on there wi' all the pix and music?
I'll try and ditch a lot of stuff that's been there a while (tho that may take this numpty a some time!) - but if you'd like to hear it, email me via the site - as said earlier - and I'll email you an mp3 of it - free gratis of course!
The whole question had me turn the house upside down to find my copy of 'Floating Brothel' - gone!
Must have lent it out and 'blowed' if I can remember who to!
Blast!
All the very best - Duncan McFarlane


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:24 PM

Abby - have emailed you the track - big file - may take some downloading time! Enjoy!

As for your....
'if they follow the trades out, why aren't the winds against them homeward? I don't get that'

...I'm no expert, but if there IS a wind - ship can make way with it - or against it by 'tacking'. The point is with them there 'trade winds' is (I think!) that they are invariably THERE!... and can be utilised.
I'm just about to email you a pic (map of the trade winds) - may even sort a blue clicky to one on here if I get time. You can see it illustrates the winds were not a cut and dried one-way ticket with a following wind anywhere!
But 'tacking' is the answer...
Course' no wind - big trouble in them days - water food etc!
Just came off one site having googled Trade Winds where I read that first thing overboard when becalmed and water was low - was the horses! Heck!
Bye for now - Duncan


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:14 PM

The horses were physically more fragile than humans and other livestock, as witness a certain Derby winner this past weekend. As such they would die first on reduced water rations [especially the highly bred horses the hidalgos favored]. That's why the areas of reduced wind/chronic calm became known as the horse lattitudes.
Duncan, take the time to read my previous post and you will have your answer.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: GUEST,Gongoozler
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:57 PM

There is a Botany Bay that you can sail to on the Leeds and Liverpool Canal - it's the name of settlement around the old wharf area at Chorley in Lancashire.......


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:55 PM

Got you PM Duncan, thanks & replied.

EBarnacle is right on about the horse lats. I got caught in them sailing back from Hawaii to the West Coast. 15 days of not a puff of air, the sea was like glass, we'd go swimming & there wouldn't be a roll. The area was a dump, as the different currents meet & sort of converge they (the currents) carry all of it's trash there & it collects & stays until the wind & weather change & carry it elsewhere. The floating carcasses of thousands of horses from the Spainish Fleets must've been an eery sight for the sailors.

On the trade winds Abby. While stuck in the doldrums we were planning on the Mendicino High setting in but it took it's time. Once it set in the wind changed. So, the Highs & Lows has an effect on the trades & those can usually be counted on during certain times of the year. If you look at a trade wind chart see the south west coast of Africa, close to shore a wind current runs north but much farther out to sea there's a trade that runs south east. On the other (south east) side of Africa from the Cape the trade runs west to east to Austrailia but go north of that & you'll find that there a current that runs in a sort of arch going east to west going by Madagascar. So sometimes the you only need to look or find or know a air current & know what time of year will bring a change in the wind patterns to take advantage of them.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:44 PM

Yep Ebarnacle - read your post -
Very informative thanks - can't see where we disagree (me, numpty?)
Puzzled by....

Where and how have I offended you? - Cheers - D


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM

Not offended, it just seemed that you ignored the information I presented in your post that followed it.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Greg B
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM

>While stuck in the doldrums we were planning on the Mendicino High >setting in...

...but someone had flushed the stash from Tomales Bay down
the head when they spotted a Coastie just after they departing
Avalon.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:15 PM

E Barnacle, m'lad
Hope this link works.... it was what I meant to post here earlier to help Abby 'get' something she said she couldn't grasp.
http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/guides/mtr/hurr/gifs/mvmt1.gif

It shows (roughly) the trades etc. The way I understand it, behind you for some parts of the 'trip', in your face for others...
in both directions, to and from UK to Port Jackson/Botany - hence need for some 'tacking'.
Mebbe it's me that's just not getting something?
I had read all the posts...
I certainly didn't mean to make any hackles rise.
Merely tried to 'add to' existing posts.
Apologies if any offence caused...- D


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Schantieman
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM

It's not just a question of having the wind directly on the nose or up the chuff. It's usually at an angle to the direction of travel: the ideal situation for aerodynamic reasons is to have the wind just abaft the beam (i.e. coming from about 100 degrees from where you want to go, or slightly behind you). This gives the fastest sailing in modern yachts but I suspect that the optimum angle for a square rigger is further aft.

So the best route is one which puts the wind on or abaft the beam for as long as possible - and gives minimum head winds - and avoids the horse latitudes and doldrums, and storms of course...and takes maximum advantage of the favourable ocean currents and avoids the adverse ones etc. etc.   So it's not a simple problem!   How the sailing ship masters did it successfully time after time 150 years ago with nothing but a chart, a compass, a log line and a sextant never fails to amaze me.

Whether they were going to Botany Bay, Round the Horn and back Again, Ten Thousand Miles Away it was an amazing achievement.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:41 PM

The most efficient point of sail is a broad reach, with the wind just aft the beam. This is one of the reasons that many racers tack downwind, even when flying a spinnaker.

As can be seen from the linked diagram above, it is quite possible to travel in [relative] comfort in either direction, using what amounts to adjacent highway lanes.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:07 PM

No matter the wind (tides & currents do still have some play here) you still have the sea to deal with when it comes to comfort so with all the rest that's just been explained above you could be sailing from the most efficent angle/point but if you're taking a beating from the seas you've got to give a bit & fall off until the seas are forgiving enough, which adds to the complexity, though if the trades have been blowing for any amount of time & you are following them you should have a following sea, meaning that your headed in the same direction as the waves (hopefully a long rolling swell) & wind. Hollywood loves to show this with the red sun setting & shinning through the rigging, it's the perfect picture that's seldom seen at sea.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Rowan
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:33 PM

"if the trades have been blowing for any amount of time & you are following them you should have a following sea, meaning that your headed in the same direction as the waves (hopefully a long rolling swell)"

Beautiful picture, Barry.

But it reminded me of sailing (dieselling, actually) on the Nella Dan from Melbourne to Mawson, through the raoring forties with their long swells coming at you from 45 degrees off the starboard bow. The rounded nature of the Nell's hull (so it could pop out of pressure ice, lie at 87 degrees from vertical but still recover to float upright) meant the ship had a godawful corkscrewing roll. Measured at 57 dgrees from vertical when I was on it.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 09:00 PM

I found "The Floating Brothel at e-bay & I should be in for an interesting read in a week or so.
Thanks Duncan & I found your "Famous Floating B" a working sample of the whole song, "Excellent" thanks trice. Send you address.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Abby Sale
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 10:31 PM

Finally! Thanks, guys - I get it now. I've handled small sail boats & tacked my way against current & wind in the seaway between Huron & Superior but never out of sight of land. No concept of theory. Ah, tacking! Forgot about that. And Barry's thoughts lay out the rest of it.

Gee!


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:36 AM

'Barry's thoughts lay out the rest of it'

As do Schantim and Ebarn's and other contributions
- pleased it's clear for you now Abb
- got there by degrees eh? (hah!) - Hugs - Duncan


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: bubblyrat
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 05:06 AM

"Abaft" the beam,EBarnacle !! Or "Aft of" ---but not "Aft",it just don"t sound right !!


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: GUEST,EBarnacle
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 11:45 PM

Different ships, different long splices, Bubbly, old rat!


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Fergie
Date: 27 Feb 11 - 08:03 PM

Hi all,

I am endeavouring to write a song about tranportation to Australia, so I found this thread to be a very interesting read.
My Great-great-grandfather was transported from Dublin to Port Jackson aboard the Royal Admiral in 1834. The first port of call was Cobh (Queenstown) in Cork, but because no record or log of the voyage has survived I don't know where else he may have visited before being diembarked into the tender hands of his gaolers at Sydney in January 1835. Can anybody make an educated/informed guess at the usual route followed by the tranports ships in the mid 1830's and list the common ports of call for fresh water and supplies?

Fergus


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Fergie
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 08:24 PM

'struth mates, shake a leg!


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 08:36 PM

Certainly they'd call at the Cape of Good Hope for supplies. The First Fleet called at the Canaries and Rio de Janiero, and I'd've thought that the later ships followed the same route.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Fergie
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 08:49 PM

Hi Les

Yes, in the early years of transportation to the antipodes they did stop at the Canaries and Rio and the Cape of Good Hope , but I'm seeking confirmation that this practice continued during the late 1820's and 1830's.

Fergus


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 09:37 PM

I don't have proof but the technology was the same. For a journey of that length they would need to resupply. The early steamships needed even more stops!


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Feb 11 - 09:45 PM

Resupply often meant just taking the longboat for fresh water. I'm not suggesting that the convicts were allowed to leave the ship.


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Subject: RE: Sailing routes to Botany Bay
From: Fergie
Date: 03 Mar 11 - 08:06 PM

Hi Les

Found this report from The Sydney Monitor, dated Friday 9 March 1838. The report states that the voyage was non-stop from Falmouth to Australia.

We are glad to announce the arrival of the Royal Admiral, with 205 passengers, of whom 196 are sent out by the Commissioners.- She left Falmouth September 26th, where she shipped 112 Cornish emigrants, and did not touch at any port. The people are very well satisfied with the arrangements for their comforts - their rations being more than they could consume.

This was the same ship that my great-great-grandfather was transported on just a couple of years previously. Granted that the numbers of prisoners, guard and crew on that occasion in 1834 would have been greater and therefore may have necessitated visiting port for supplies, but I'm wondering would they have still needed to visit the Canaries and Rio?

Fergus


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