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'Are you SURE you wrote that?'

Alec 28 Jan 07 - 03:13 AM
LukeKellylives (Chris) 28 Jan 07 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,Jim 28 Jan 07 - 04:39 AM
Dave Hanson 28 Jan 07 - 05:06 AM
Jim McLean 28 Jan 07 - 05:12 AM
GUEST,Liz the Squeak 28 Jan 07 - 07:16 AM
Alec 28 Jan 07 - 07:26 AM
kendall 28 Jan 07 - 07:26 AM
Alec 28 Jan 07 - 07:29 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Jan 07 - 07:38 AM
Alec 28 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM
Stower 28 Jan 07 - 07:55 AM
GUEST 28 Jan 07 - 09:16 AM
Scoville 28 Jan 07 - 11:47 AM
GUEST 28 Jan 07 - 01:45 PM
Scoville 28 Jan 07 - 02:09 PM
Alec 28 Jan 07 - 02:14 PM
Bernard 28 Jan 07 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Leo 28 Jan 07 - 02:26 PM
LukeKellylives (Chris) 28 Jan 07 - 02:35 PM
Shaneo 28 Jan 07 - 02:37 PM
Bernard 28 Jan 07 - 02:42 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Jan 07 - 02:42 PM
Scoville 28 Jan 07 - 02:45 PM
Don Firth 28 Jan 07 - 02:59 PM
Jim McLean 28 Jan 07 - 03:00 PM
Barry Finn 28 Jan 07 - 03:05 PM
Alec 28 Jan 07 - 03:09 PM
LukeKellylives (Chris) 28 Jan 07 - 03:11 PM
Penny S. 28 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM
Penny S. 28 Jan 07 - 03:37 PM
Louie Roy 28 Jan 07 - 03:53 PM
Rowan 28 Jan 07 - 10:09 PM
GUEST 28 Jan 07 - 10:57 PM
Kevin Sheils 29 Jan 07 - 04:40 AM
GUEST 29 Jan 07 - 09:00 AM
GUEST 29 Jan 07 - 10:22 AM
Scrump 29 Jan 07 - 11:22 AM
GUEST 29 Jan 07 - 12:38 PM
Alec 29 Jan 07 - 12:44 PM
Songster Bob 29 Jan 07 - 02:12 PM
Scoville 29 Jan 07 - 02:57 PM
Jim McLean 29 Jan 07 - 04:15 PM
Jim Lad 29 Jan 07 - 05:26 PM
Big Al Whittle 29 Jan 07 - 05:40 PM
LukeKellylives (Chris) 29 Jan 07 - 05:58 PM
Jim Lad 29 Jan 07 - 10:24 PM
GUEST,reggie miles 30 Jan 07 - 12:46 AM
Jim McLean 30 Jan 07 - 07:46 AM
Uncle_DaveO 30 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM
Dan Schatz 30 Jan 07 - 11:38 AM
Jim Lad 30 Jan 07 - 12:12 PM
bubblyrat 30 Jan 07 - 12:35 PM
Alec 30 Jan 07 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,Jim 30 Jan 07 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,Jim 30 Jan 07 - 03:55 PM
Joybell 30 Jan 07 - 03:59 PM
Jim Lad 30 Jan 07 - 04:02 PM
Alec 30 Jan 07 - 04:15 PM
Captain Ginger 30 Jan 07 - 04:44 PM
Jim Lad 30 Jan 07 - 04:44 PM
Jim Lad 31 Jan 07 - 09:50 PM
GUEST,Scoville 31 Jan 07 - 09:52 PM
LukeKellylives (Chris) 31 Jan 07 - 09:54 PM
GUEST,Scoville 31 Jan 07 - 09:55 PM
GUEST,Dave Hunt 31 Jan 07 - 10:58 PM
GUEST,henryclem 01 Feb 07 - 12:49 PM
tarheel 01 Feb 07 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,coldjam 01 Feb 07 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,Frank Hamilton 01 Feb 07 - 07:32 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 02 Feb 07 - 01:33 PM
Linda Goodman Zebooker 02 Feb 07 - 01:47 PM
Alec 02 Feb 07 - 02:46 PM
Azizi 03 Feb 07 - 08:53 AM
Azizi 03 Feb 07 - 09:04 AM
Azizi 03 Feb 07 - 09:26 AM
Azizi 03 Feb 07 - 09:35 AM
Alec 03 Feb 07 - 10:03 AM
Rowan 04 Feb 07 - 03:50 PM
Alec 04 Feb 07 - 03:55 PM
Jim McLean 04 Feb 07 - 04:30 PM
Jim Lad 04 Feb 07 - 07:08 PM
Jim McLean 05 Feb 07 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Jim 05 Feb 07 - 10:53 AM
Jim Lad 05 Feb 07 - 11:30 AM
Alec 05 Feb 07 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,Jim 05 Feb 07 - 03:23 PM
Sharmagne 24 Feb 07 - 02:08 PM
SharonA 24 Feb 07 - 02:34 PM
Jim Lad 24 Feb 07 - 03:02 PM
Sharmagne 24 Feb 07 - 03:08 PM
Jim Lad 24 Feb 07 - 03:12 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Feb 07 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 25 Feb 07 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,Janemick 29 Oct 10 - 02:40 AM
Genie 29 Oct 10 - 03:44 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Oct 10 - 05:05 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Oct 10 - 05:46 AM
Leadfingers 29 Oct 10 - 06:01 AM
Leadfingers 29 Oct 10 - 06:04 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Oct 10 - 06:11 AM
BobKnight 29 Oct 10 - 07:05 AM
Taconicus 29 Oct 10 - 09:58 AM
MGM·Lion 29 Oct 10 - 10:39 AM
JohnH 29 Oct 10 - 05:39 PM
Leadfingers 29 Oct 10 - 09:21 PM
LadyJean 30 Oct 10 - 12:19 AM
GUEST,JB 30 Oct 10 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Oct 10 - 04:06 AM
Acorn4 31 Oct 10 - 05:00 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 31 Oct 10 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,Can o' Worms 31 Oct 10 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Oct 10 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 31 Oct 10 - 03:58 PM
Stringsinger 31 Oct 10 - 05:44 PM
Tattie Bogle 31 Oct 10 - 08:01 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Nov 10 - 05:32 AM
Tattie Bogle 01 Nov 10 - 05:56 PM
Tattie Bogle 01 Nov 10 - 06:09 PM
Genie 01 Nov 10 - 10:24 PM
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oldstrings 03 Nov 10 - 04:03 AM
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Subject: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:13 AM

I was thinking about Folk melodies that have been rewritten (& copyrighted) by writers in the field of Rock &/or contemporary popular music.From Elvis singing "Love Me Tender" (Aurie Lee"),Bob Dylan's "Blowin' In The Wind" ("No More Auction Block")& "Masters Of War"("Nottmun Town")John Lennon's "Happy Christmas (War Is Over) which,melodically is,to all intents, & purposes "Stewball"
A mention should also be made of George Harrison who wrote "Behind that Locked Door" a song whose meter & chord changes both owe a debt to "On Top of Old Smokie"
A (relatively) more recent example might be "Belfast Child" by Simple Minds which is yet another rewrite of "She Walks Through The Fair"
I was wondering how many other examples others might be able to think of?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:01 AM

Seven Drunken Nights/Seven Deadly Sins

Woman from Wexford/Old Orange Flute

Drunken Sailor/Oro 'Se Do Bheatha 'Bhaile

Tramps and Hawkers/Paddy West/England's Motor/etc

Bold Fenian Men/The Blackbird (rarely heard version of The Blackbird)/Next Market Day (kinda)

Night Visiting Song/I'm a Rover

Roddy McCorley/Sean South

Napoleon Crossing The Mountains/The Hot Asphalt

Calton Weaver/Loch Lomond

Star of the County Down/Crooked Jack


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:39 AM

Work your way through Dominic Behan's two songbooks and you'll find he copyrighted everything.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:06 AM

Most of Bob Dylans early stuff was based on English folksongs, a lot of which he got from Martin Carthy.

eric


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:12 AM

I wrote Seven Deadly Sins and it has nothing in common, lyrically or musically, with Seven Drunkan Nights except fot the word 'Seven'.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:16 AM

Ah.. the hardest thing to hear is someone singing a song you wrote and claiming it as their own... been there, done that, spilled my beer over the thieving bastard.

I see an awful lot of 'trad. arr by ***' and can live with that, but I also see a lot of trad tunes wholly claimed by composers. The theory is that they are copyrighting the arrangement and/or harmonization they have added. These harmonies may bear a striking resemblance to those traditionally sung to that tune, but unless someone else has written them down and claimed copyright, they are up for grabs. I think it sad that some composers don't feel secure enough that they can credit a traditional tune, but it's been going on for centuries.

LTS


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:26 AM

'Tis exactly as you say LTS.Many a classical composer has used the same process. I was thinking of the likes of Paul Simon who seems to have moments where he genuinely half-believes that he wrote both "Scarborough Fair" & "Silent Night"
Chuck Berry's "My Ding-a-Ling" (Pretty much "Little Brown Jug")
Does anybody know if the Beach Boys ever claimed credit for "Sloop John B"? Works of that ilk.
Any more examples?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:26 AM

Why waste a good tune on one song?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:29 AM

Contrariwise,why waste a good tune on one writer's avarice?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:38 AM

Contrariwise, why not recognise that copyright only subsists in an original work, albeit that that maybe an arrangement, and that reproduction without the arrangement of the work that is subjected to the arrangement is not a reproduction of the arrangement.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

Fair comment Richard and to give credit where it is due The Beatles only copyrighted their arrangement of "Maggie Mae"
Not all writers are that honest though.It would be nice if they were.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Stower
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:55 AM

Richard, this may be me being thick, but could you explain "and that reproduction without the arrangement of the work that is subjected to the arrangement is not a reproduction of the arrangement" please?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:16 AM

Yes, Sir Humphrey, please do    :-)


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 11:47 AM

The Tune that Will Not Die: Rosin the Bow/Men of the West/Lincoln & Liberty/Love Me, I'm a Liberal/Acres of Clams/etc. etc.

"Tramps & Hawkers"--also "Wind that Shakes the Corn"

"Wayfaring Stranger"--"Silver Dagger" (almost)

"Marching Through Georgia"--"Orange and the Green"

Old Crow Medicine Show's "Tear it Down"--"Pig Ankle Rag"


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:45 PM

These melodies have been reworked since the year one-the first question really is, how do you define what the essential melody is, and the second is, what constitues a significant enough change to make it a different melody?

Then there is the follow-up question, why does it make any difference?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:09 PM

I didn't think anyone said it did make any difference, only that it's interesting to see where the tunes crop up.

Personally, I think it takes a pretty significant change in melody, but that's the kind of thing that goes on an example-by-example basis.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:14 PM

Guest 01:45PM,I feel unqualified to answer your first two questions as to your follow-up,well a lot of people talk of the folk process as defunct but I'm not convinced. I think it has had to change radically to accomodate technological/social/cultural/legal changes but nevertheless I think it still exists.I was/am mainly curious to see if examples/evidence of this could be identified in contemporary music.Also interested in related issues around ownership of the "end" product.Nothing deeper than that :-)


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Bernard
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:18 PM

Leo Sayer's 'When I Need You' (Written by Carol Jill Bayer Sager / Albert Louis Hammond) is a rip-pff from Leonard Cohen's 'Famous Blue Raincost'... even in the same key!


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Leo
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:26 PM

Is it bollock!


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:35 PM

To the person who wrote Seven Deadly Sins:

I apologize if I offended you, they just sound an awful lot alike to me. I'm not saying they're exactly alike as the others on my list, just that they do sound alike. Same with The Old Orange Flute and Woman From Wexford. Again, I apologize if I offended you, and you did a nice job with the song. It's a favorite of mine. I just think Luke should have sang it for The Dubliners instead of Ronnie.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Shaneo
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:37 PM

Here is another 'John O'Dreams' made famous by Christy Moore , words and music by Bill Caddick , or so he says, but the tune is from Tchaikovsky's sixth symphony.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Bernard
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:42 PM

Bill Caddick never makes any secret of the origin of the tune - it's Christy Moore who must have it wrong...!


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:42 PM

There's something Shania Twain does that is a bit like the Norman Greenbaum hit "Spirit int he Sky" - but not so good.

Right. SImple explanation.

Take a public domain melody (say Greensleeves). No copyright.

Make an arrangement that is sufficiently substantial to amount to a copyright work. (say Bluesleeves - most of you know it, right - Cliff Aungier?). THE COPYRIGHT WORK IS THE ARRANGEMENT, NOT THE ORIGINAL. The question is whether the arrangement is sufficiently substantial to amount to a copyright work. It is not "how many notes are changed".

Record Bluesleeves - infringment of the copyright of Cliff Aungier.

Record Greensleeves - no infringment of the Cliff Aungier arrangement. No infringment of anything.

Make your own arrangement of Greensleeves (without COPYING, consciously or unconsciously, Bluesleeves). Your arrangement does not infringe the copyright of Cliff Aungier.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:45 PM

The folk process is NOT defunct. (You may be more likely to get sued, but I assure you, it's not defunct.)


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:59 PM

There is a story that Beethoven was hired by some aristocrat who was having a musical evening for a bunch of his equally aristocratic friends—a good paying gig for the always broke Beethoven. But when Beethoven arrived, he found that another musician-composer and his string quartet had also been hired, and thinking that he was to be the only one that evening (and being his natural, cranky, egotistical self), he got highly steamed. So when the string quartet finish playing the other composer's piece and it was Beethoven's turn, he put his own composition aside, walked over to the second violinist's music stand, picked up a piece of sheet music from it, went to the piano, and sat down. He took the piece of sheet music and turned it upside-down. He played the part—upside-down—(Victor Borge does a funny schtick with something like this), then proceeded, using the upside-down second violinist's part, to improvised brilliantly for about an hour. Left the audience and his patron thoroughly entertained and highy amazed.

Beethoven was a real smart-ass. But what makes me love the guy was that he could bring it off!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:00 PM

Thanks for the apology, LukeKellylives. However there is no comparison to either the words or the melody to seven Drunken Nights. The words and the theme are entireley different and again the melody has nothing in common. I'm glad you like it and I appreciate your kind response but please listen again. PS. I wrote it on request from the Dubliners (I was their road manager at the time). It was a deliberate follow up to 7 D N and it was decided that Ronnie should sing it. Slan, Jim.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:05 PM

Geeze, I think I'm gonna stop writing, I'm afraid that there'll be no more tunes left to put to the words I wrote & that any tune I can come up with, I'll find out later it won't be my own. What to do!

Barry


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:09 PM

Barry it is proverbial that "True genius steals". ;-)


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:11 PM

Jim:

Glad no hard feelings are left! I'll listen to it again in a bit, I haven't heard it in a while. It's cool that you were their manager; must've been great fun.

All the Best,

Christian C.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:37 PM

Oops, sorry.
I was worried for years that I was going to be jumped on for getting my recorder and guitar groups to play an arrangement of a tune claimed by a modern composer as his copyright, but which I was sure was traditional. I changed one note in the melody, I think, but with my ostinatos and counterpoints drowning it, I reckoned it was fair dealing.

And now I know it was traditional. I didn't have to worry. But how did he get to have his copyright line on a melodic line in an anthology of popular tunes?

Penny


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Louie Roy
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:53 PM

Law suit over these two songs back in the late 30s or early 40s
1st one was When She wore a Tulip A big yellow Tulip And I wore a big red rose.
2nd one a couple of years later When she drove a buick a big yellow buick and I drove a little red ford.i can't remember who wrote each song but the person who wrote the little red ford won the suit by changing the word to little red ford instead of big red ford


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:09 PM

"When Johnny comes marching home again/Ghost riders in the sky" would be my favourite examples of answering the thread's original question. With the long and broad exposure to traditional song and bush poetry I've had, I felt I had to avoid any of the Anglo/Saxon/Celtic forms when I felt the urge to write, so that I didn't resurrect something from the recesses of my memory and think it my own creation.

So I mostly write haiku. My complete and utter lack of tunesmithing ability is not compromised by haiku; just as well, I suspect! But, even though I may write on bush poem themes, the bush poets don't seem to want to recognise haiku. Sigh!

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:57 PM

The principle of intellectual property matters for a few reasons, but that principle is enforced by the courts. The office that registers copyrights does not vet the originality of a work.

The holding of a copyright can make a significant financial difference.

A public domain song may be avoided by some who learn of a copyright related to the song, either because the public domain status of the song is not known or because of fear of a potential lawsuit.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:40 AM

Thanks for the apology, LukeKellylives. However there is no comparison to either the words or the melody to seven Drunken Nights.

Wrote Jim

I agree although it's some time since I listened but from memory I get bits of Rosin the Bow in my head thinking of the 7 deadly sins. Although that's such a well used tune it crops up all over the place

Any way to add

Jack Orion/Donald where's your troosers

(I'm sure that Bert Lloyd openly admitted that's where he got the tune)


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 09:00 AM

We are an Island...a song about Cape Breton, sounds very much like the Richard Farina tune for Birmingham Sunday. I forget who wrote the CB song or what the actual title is but for   years I kept wondering where I had heard the tune before. Am I right or is it just my imagination ? Both great songs by the way.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:22 AM

There was a recent thread--I can't come up with the title--on hit songs that incorporated folk songs. Some of the songs submitted there might fit. Anyway, this is a good thread for discussion.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Scrump
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:22 AM

I agree with Jim McLean that there's not a lot of similarity between Seven Drunken Nights and Seven Deadly Sins, apart from the number in the title, and the fact that the Dubliners only mention 5 of each in the actual songs :-)

As for Woman from Wexford/Ould Orange Flute, I don't think they're all that similar, either (at least, in the Dubliners' versions). Ould Orange Flute is usually sung to the tune "Villikins and his Dinah", which is used for a lot of other songs (Threshing Machine springs to mind) - but not Woman from Wexford, AFAIK. [Sorry, LukeKellyLive (Chris) - not having a go at you, just saying what I think about these songs!]


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 12:38 PM

It is not rare for a composer or songwriter to be struck with a melodic inspiration and then to wonder who wrote that melody. I believe that Paul McCartney in an interview has told of waking up with one of his now-famous melodies, playing it on the piano, and asking who wrote it.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 12:44 PM

That's true Guest, the song became "Yesterday" McCartney's caution might be explained by reference to the fact that that song's chord changes are very close to those of "Georgia on My Mind."


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Songster Bob
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:12 PM

"The Tune that Will Not Die: Rosin the Bow/Men of the West/Lincoln & Liberty/Love Me, I'm a Liberal/Acres of Clams/etc. etc."

Love Me, I'm a Liberal? Rosin the Beau? I don't hear that at all.
Similarly, to me the parallel between Johnny Comes Marching Home and Ghost Riders doesn't extend much past the second line (though it is pretty close there, I agree -- time signature notwithstanding). And everyone says that This Land comes from Darling, Pal of Mine, but that's true for only the first line of the tune.

Richard Farina's Birmingham Sunday is The Week Before Easter (She's Gone to be Wed to Another) is Dancing at Whitsun is ...

My problem with writing tunes is that I start with something that sounds nice, but my analytical side says, "What tune is that?" and bingo! now I'm playing the tune it resembles in some manner, and the original tune I was creating now has vanished into the cranial bitbucket, never to be remembered. Sigh.


Bob


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Scoville
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:57 PM

Picky, picky.

Love Me, I'm a Liberal? Rosin the Beau? I don't hear that at all. The beginning and the ends of the verses are pretty clearly "Rosin the Bow", even though he pulls it out of shape in the middle.

As for "This Land is Your Land"/"Darling Pal of Mine"--they are not identical and the emphasis is different because the words are different, but they are very close, especially if you go back and listen to the old Carter Family versions.

Haven't we been talking about all this on that folk process thread?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:15 PM

I mentioned on a thread somewhere else that I wrote a song calle 'Ghost Tigers in the Sky' and the tune started off as 'John Anderson My Jo John' whence Ghost Riders in the Sky and of course When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:26 PM

Thomas Moore (my favourite writer) was known for putting his own lyrics to some fairly standard tunes of the day. Thanks to his efforts those tunes are still with us.
Guest: "We are an Island" is known as "A rock in the Stream" in Cape Breton and "The Island" by others.
Jim Mclean: Where can I hear "Seven Deadly Sins"?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:40 PM

this is a load of cobblers.

the chord changes to Manchester Rambler, Singing in the Rain, Jambalaya, and One Man went to Mow are all the same

G then D7 and then back again. If you're playing the wrong chord - then you should be playing the other one.

It doesn't prove any sort of relationship. and to be honest, I had never connected half of these songs with ones with which they are being linked. They are different songs.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:58 PM

JimLad:

With Jim McLean's permission, I'd be glad to send you the MP3 of The Dubliners' version of it.

Would you mind, Jim (McLean)?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:24 PM

Go for it. I can take him! jimbrannigan@yahoo.com


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,reggie miles
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:46 AM

I wrote one that I was excited to share with a friend. After listening to a short piece of it my friend John informed me that I had inadvertently used a Hank Williams melody, Cold Cold Heart, to back my lyrics. As soon as he mentioned it to me it I realized the same. Why had I not heard this before?

The strange thing is that, although I probably own everything written by Hank, I rarely get the opportunity to listen to his music or any of the vast amount of recorded music that I have at my disposal. I don't even have a vehicle that has a functional radio. So, I get very little exposure to his or anyone else's music.

My question is, how did Hank's melody become so dominant in my mind as to find it's way into my creative processes as I wrote the words to my song and escape my attention entirely?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:46 AM

LukeKellylives, I don't mind atall but the copyright belongs to Carlin Music so I don't have any say in the matter. Cheers


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM

Law suit over these two songs back in the late 30s or early 40s
1st one was When She wore a Tulip A big yellow Tulip And I wore a big red rose.
2nd one a couple of years later When she drove a buick a big yellow buick and I drove a little red ford.i can't remember who wrote each song but the person who wrote the little red ford won the suit by changing the word to little red ford instead of big red ford


I know nothing of the particular lawsuit, nor what the defense was, but it seems clear to me that a powerful defense here would be that the song "Big Yellow Buick" is a parody of "When she Wore a Tulip". As I understand it, parodies are permissible use of copyrighted material.

Of course I could be wrong. (A handsome admission, if I ever heard one.)

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:38 AM

"Tak a Dram" and the theme from The Flintstones.

It is possible that some similar tunes arise independently, of course.

Dan Schatz


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:12 PM

God Love Ye Jim McLean!


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: bubblyrat
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:35 PM

I Like "Lily Marlene" & I like " The D-day dodgers" & to be honest I can"t be arsed about the authorship of the melody---at least ,two good songs will ensure its immortality. Of course, if you are a hard-up,LIVING,breathing musician who refuses to recognise the human frailty of his fellow men,then there could be a problem ahead !!Otherwise,life"s too short.Also,if writers of "pop" music use bits of say,Prokofiev, in their efforts to liven up their usual dross, at least it exposes many of the young people of today to music they might not otherwise have heard of.!! Which must be a GOOD THING !!


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:40 PM

A very good thing bubblyrat.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:53 PM

Woody freely admitted using tunes from other songs:
Little Darlin' Pal Of Mine became This Land Is Your Land.
Wildwood Flower became Good Reuban James
Redwing became Union Maid...

I wonder which came first, Tiptoe Through The Tulips or Birth Of The Blues. They're almost the same.
...or Five Foot Two and Please Don't Talk About Me (a bit more of a stretch, but the same progression for sure)


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:55 PM

...or They're Red Hot and Alice's Restaurant.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Joybell
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:59 PM

The most used tune must surely be "The Little Old Log Cabin...." (it quickly grew many hybrids regarding the location of the cabin -- before it moved on to unrelated subjects) by William Shakespeare Hayes. I once tried to list the songs using it but gave up at about 50.
Cheers, Joy


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:02 PM

I've always thought that there are only so many useful permutations for notes and that every good tune has been written, one way or another.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:15 PM

Not sure Jim, rounding up very slightly for sake of convenience let's say their are 100 useful guitar chords.
That means on three chord songs alone there would be 1 million possible permutations.
Clearly the number of all possible permutations will be finite but will still be very large.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:44 PM

Calon Lan became Life's Railroad to Heaven and then the Miner's Lifeguard.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:44 PM

Yes: Mathematically you'd be right. What I mean is USEFUL ways to join up the notes and make a tune.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:50 PM

Got the song. Thanx LukeKellylives (Chris).


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:52 PM

Life's Railway to Heaven is the tune to "Vacant Chair", which is Civil War era. The tune has a composer listed (but who knows where he really got it).


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:54 PM

Not a problem, Jim. Lemme know if I can do anythin' else for ya.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:55 PM

Here it is.

And of course there's always "I'm Thinking Tonight of My Blue Eyes"/"Great Speckled Bird"/"Wild Side of Life"/"It Wasn't God Who Made Honky-Tonk Angels", and whatever else uses that approximate tune.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Dave Hunt
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 10:58 PM

'Star of the County Down/Crooked Jack'
A much older version of course being Dives and Lazarus -
----------------------

'Calon Lan became Life's Railroad to Heaven and then the Miner's Lifeguard'.
another Version of this was Life is like a Mountain Railway
(Always going up and down)!
Dave


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,henryclem
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 12:49 PM

Goodbye booze (Hamish Imlach) is Richland Women Blues (Mississippi John Hurt)   ...


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: tarheel
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 04:36 PM

"little ole log cabin" by william shakespear hayes does have lots of other titles connected to the melody!
but i think i've only heard ONE...Shamus o'brien!
i love that melody and the entire song,too!
kim and jim lansford had a terrific version of it on their CD,"out in the cold world!"
Tar...


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,coldjam
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 04:59 PM

Someone once told me there hadn't been an original bar of music written in a hundred years until "Shadrack, Meshack and Abendago" was written. It won some kind of big international prize in music...anyone know about this? I wonder if anything has been written new since then..?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 07:32 PM

I think that too much is made out of taking a trad tune and reworking it in a new song. There are very few folk tunes rewritten or otherwise that are original. Now if you talk about Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, Frank Loesser or George Gershwin et. al., then that might be a different story although even the creative George based "It Ain't Necessarilly So" on a liturgical Jewish piece perhaps unwittingly. Another interesting use is "Nottamun Town" (Jean Ritchie) and Dylan's "Masters of War". I remember the story of i think it was Maurice Jarre who was surprised to find that he wrote a song to a Russian national anthem.
Stravinsky said something to the effect that composers don't plagarize, they steal.

I think that Paul Simon added to Scarborough Fair with the Canticle and made it a slightly different content.

Sometimes a little thing can make a melody have a different dimension either through another lyric or an addition in the arrangement.

Frank Profitt got the royalties and sued the Kingston Trio for "Tom Dooley" but Frank Profitt did not write "Tom Dooley" and the K.T. copped their arrangement from the Folksay Trio on Asch/Stinson with Erik Darling, Bob Carey and Roger Sprung. The K.T. got their famous "hiccup" in the song from the Folksay Trio and I believe it was that "hiccup" that made the song famous.

So the idea as to who did what with what melody is much ado about nothing.....

unless of course you put some new lyrics to "Night and Day" by Cole Porter or tunes by Jerome Kern or Kurt Weill. Then I think you'll hear from their publishers.

Folk songs endure because they are ...familiar... and this means that the melodies have been heard before in other songs whether they are rewritten or not.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 01:33 PM

Frank Hamilton, Frank Profitt got no royalties until the Kingston Trio's big sales were well over. Frank made a comment at the time, "Well, looks like I'll be getting a good share of nothing!" Also, during the lawsuit (which was practically done FOR him by others- I think Lomax suggest it, and helped with it-, would have to look that up), extensive research was done and the song- recorded by the Folksay Trio and published by Dick and Beth Best, was traced to the version sung by Frank Profitt and his family. He did not claim that he wrote it, just that it was the way his family sang it that way. I write this only because your statement above sounded so authoritative, and I knew that this particular fact in your statement was not true.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Linda Goodman Zebooker
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 01:47 PM

I've been writing a song for tonight's February Open Sing in Montgomery County Maryland. The tune and some of the verses came to me in the car on the way home from January's Open Sing. (Feb's theme had been announced - Demons and Desires). But after I sang it a few times, my song sounded so familiar to me that I kept getting scared that it was really someone else's that I'd heard before. I felt better about it after I wrote down all the places I could tell it borrowed from:

Rhythm from "Rickey Tickety Tim" (the Tom Lehrer-song which someone had just sung in the Jan. Open Sing), More rythmn from "Teddy Bear's Picnic" and "I Wonder Who's Kissing Her Now", A word from "Sundown" by Gordon Lightfoot, A run from "Fire and Rain" by James Taylor, Interplay of verses from "The Drinking Song" from The Student Prince (Romberg). And the general theme is similar to one song found in every musical written in the '50's.

So is it mine?

Linda


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 02:46 PM

It's an interesting question Linda.I wouldn't have thought one could be accused of plagiarising a rhythm.(There's a hint of Bizet's in "Michelle" & a goodly portion of Bartok's in more than one of Martin Carthy's compositions.or is there?)
A word can hardly count against you nor,I would have thought,would a
general theme. (Can you imagine someone making a proprietorial claim on the general theme of "love"?) As for the rest I suppose it's all in the blending.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 08:53 AM

While looking for some other information online:

Done Laid Around
In 1961, Pete Seeger reported that he "...first learned 'Done Laid Around' from Larry Ehrlich of Chicago, who learned it from Paul Clayton, who learned it from Arthur Kyle Davis of the University of Virginia, who got it from a small booklet, published by a now deceased French professor. His original sources, African American folk singers of Virginia, were not listed."

Seeger recorded "Done Laid Around" as "Gotta Travel On" in the 1950s with the popular folk-singing quartet, The Weavers. It was a hit record for them and became one of their many signature pieces.

Source: "Sing Out!" Magazine.

-snip-

I suppose this only applies to this thread if Seeger did not acknowledge his sources for this song.

https://www.oldtownschool.org/resources/songnotes/songnotes_D.html

Recordings on file by: Cisco Houston, The Weavers


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 09:04 AM

And there's discussion on this Mudcat thread thread.cfm?threadid=23813#267105 about the problems that the Weavers and Pete Seeger had with the Solomon Lindo song "Mbube" {"The Lion Sleeps Tonight"; "Wimoweh"}

**

Also, there's the song "Rum & Coca-Cola"

See this excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rum_and_Coca-Cola :

"Rum and Coca-Cola is the title of a popular calypso. Originally composed by Lord Invader and Lionel Belasco, it was copyrighted in the United States by entertainer Morey Amsterdam and became a huge hit, selling some four million singles when a version was released in 1945 by the Andrews Sisters.

Although the song was published in the United States with Amsterdam listed as the lyricist and Jeri Sullavan and Paul Baron as musical composers, the melody had been previously published as the work of Trinidadian calypso composer Lionel Belasco on a song titled "L'Année Passée," which was in turn based on a folksong from Martinique. The original lyrics to "Rum and Coca-Cola" were written by Rupert Grant, another calypso musician from Trinidad who went by the stage name of Lord Invader."...

-snip-

I know there's at least one Mudcat thread about this song, but for some reason, I can't find it by using the Mudcat search engine.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 09:26 AM

For those who may be interested, I found this Mudcat thread.cfm?threadid=66111 because someone posted a link to it in the "Lion Sleeps Tonight" thread.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 09:35 AM

Here's another note I found that mentions the Weavers and another song that it seems this group didn't attribute correctly:

"Goodnight Irene
Along with Woody Guthrie, Huddie Ledbetter is regarded as one of the great American folk song composers and performers. Born near Shreveport, LA in the late 1800s, Huddie's young life was filled with music, traveling, carousing and violence. He did three different stretches in prison in his lifetime, and at the age of 48 was discovered in Angola State Penitentiary by folk song collector John Lomax. Huddie was called "Lead Belly" and played a big twelve string guitar, which he tuned unusually low to imitate the sounds of a barrel-house piano.

Lead Belly was a song collector and an animated entertainer. He was a story teller and a raconteur and a crack musician. He was an improviser who sang blues and work songs, spirituals and pop numbers. Lead Belly was also a skilled composer. Like Guthrie, he had the ability to take old and familiar songs and rework them into fresh material.

Although Lead Belly never achieved great success as performer or recording artist in his lifetime, his songs and legend are inherently woven into the fabric of American folklore and folk music. His impact on American music is so widely acknowledged and strongly felt that Lead Belly was honored as the first inductee into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1989.

"Irene" is Lead Belly's signature piece and he sang it his entire life. He composed it at age twenty-three when his heart was broken by a sophisticated young lady from Shreveport. In 1949 a record of "Irene" was released by a group of folk singers who called themselves The Weavers and the song went to number one. It sold a then unheard of two million copies but sadly, Huddie passed away only six months earlier and never saw the fame or fortune that the success of "Irene" would have brought him.

Source: The Folk Songs of North America, Alan Lomax, Doubleday.
Recordings on file by: Lead Belly, The Weavers.

https://www.oldtownschool.org/resources/songnotes/songnotes_G.html


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 10:03 AM

Thanks for those characteristically well researched contributions Azizi.As always you have given us some interesting things to consider.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 03:50 PM

Amanda Vanstone was, until recently the Minister for Immigration in OZ, and has just released her bid for a republican Australian national anthem. To my mind the opening lines are a direct pinch from Elgar's Pomp & Circumstance march used for Land of Hope & Glory, itself sung best (IMO) with the words "Lloyd George knew my father".

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 03:55 PM

Earlier this evening I was listening to Maddy Prior singing "This is the Truth".I thought the melodic line was very similar to "Marco Polo" in places.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:30 PM

I was listening to Maddy Prior singing 'Hush, hush, time to be sleeping' (written by Maddy Prior according to sleeve notes)when I realised that I wrote that!


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 07:08 PM

Jim, you amaze me. Do you have a web-site?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 09:27 AM

No, Jim Lad, no web site. I enjoy researching old Scottish tunes and I used to write and produce, but not any more. Cheers,


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 10:53 AM

Azizi - Do you (or anyone else) know if it was the Weavers who changed "I'll get you in my dreams" to "I'll see you in my dreams"?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 11:30 AM

I almost recorded and paid royalties to a "Lady" who claimed she wrote "The Evening Bells". Did a little digging and discovered it was written by Thomas Moore. I cancelled the recording. She and her band haven't spoken to me since.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Alec
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 12:02 PM

"I'll see you in my dreams" is attributed to Gus Kahn & Isham Jones.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 03:23 PM

Sorry Alec, I see my question was ambiguous. Here's a little clarification:
   Lead Belly sings:"Good Night Irene, Good night Irene,
                     I'll get you in my dreams."

   These days most people sing:"I'll see you in my dreams."

   I think I've heard Dr. John and Ry Cooder sing "get you", but most singers say "see you".


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Sharmagne
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 02:08 PM

re: Scarbourough Fair.

I once sent Peter Yarrow the lyrics to this poem I found, called "The Lover's Task", Sugesting that he and the trio (Peter Paul and Mary) should record it. His reply was: "Riddle songs are out." A few years later these two kids who called themselves Tom and Jerry, changed their name to Simon and Garfunkle and recorded the song as Scarborough Fair. And yes PS takes credit for it.

At least P,P,&M would publish as "adapted and arranged by"


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: SharonA
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 02:34 PM

Did I miss something here, or has no one yet mentioned the infamous case of the George Harrison song "My Sweet Lord", with tune lifted wholesale from "He's So Fine"?


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 03:02 PM

"I once sent Peter Yarrow the lyrics to this poem I found, called "The Lover's Task"," ..........
You probably meant well but you may have all-be-it, unwittingly assaulted Peter Yarrow by sending them your lyrics, uninvited.
(if that's the way it happened)
By even acknowledging that he has received them, Peter opens himself up to all sorts of criticisms and law suits, down the road.
I would strongly advise any songwriter to exercise extreme caution in the way that they choose to pass their work around, no matter how well intentioned.
Not saying that's how it happened, Sharmagne. Just taking this opportunity to make an important point.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Sharmagne
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 03:08 PM

>>>>We are an Island...a song about Cape Breton, sounds very much like the Richard Farina tune for Birmingham Sunday. I forget who wrote the CB song or what the actual title is but for   years I kept wondering where I had heard the tune before. Am I right or is it just my imagination ? Both great songs by the way.<<<<

I was wondering if anyone here was familiar with Dickie Fariña!

Raven Girl was one of my favourites.

My grandfather wrote some very well known songs during the depression and he sold them for $25.00 a piece (a lot of money in those days) to people like Bob Nolan, Gene and Roy and Tex Ritter. They had no problem putitng their name on as "author" Even though all they did was cover them and collect the royalties!

To me that is the height of audacity.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 03:12 PM

Oh, I've seen worse. Much, much worse!


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 01:37 PM

Parody is not a defence to copyright infringement in the UK. If it's a substantial reproduction, it's a substantial reproduction.

Now that the USA has joined Berne, I wonder if Sharmagne's grandfather can claim his "droit de paternite". In the UK it is waivable (or, rather, maybe agreed not to be asserted) but I'm not so sure about continental europe.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 02:04 PM

Ralph McTell's "Streets Of London" is Pachelbel's Canon.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Janemick
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 02:40 AM

To bring this thread up to date, John Tams used the tune of Dives & Lazarus for the song 'The Year Turns Round Again'
it is credited as: 'J. Tams, arr. A.Sutton & T. van Eyken'


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Genie
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 03:44 AM

FWIW, I don't find the tunes to "Blowin' In The Wind" and "No More Auction Block" very similar except for the first half of the first two lines of each verse, and even there the tunes are not really the same.

"Riders In The Sky" does have a melody pretty much an identical to "Johnny Comes Marching Home" - much to my surprise, because the meter/syncopation is so different - but that's only true of the first two lines of the verse.   The second half of the verse is quite different in the two songs.

Which brings me to the question of how similar two tunes have to be before the later work is considered to be "stolen" or "copied," as opposed to merely being "derivative." Lots of music, as well as works in other art forms, is derivative of earlier works.   It's kind of hard for a melody not to have segments that are similar to or even identical to others.
The first 4 bars of "Joy To The World" (not the Hoyt Axton one) are just a backwards scale; it's only the timing that makes that not obvious. But does that mean any piece that incorporates a straightforward octave sequence is copying Lowell Mason?

And if two songs use the same chord pattern and have similar phrasing, I don't think that necessarily makes the tunes "the same." E.g., it's often said that Woody Guthrie "stole" (or borrowed) Leadbelly's tune to "Goodnight, Irene" for "Roll On, Columbia," but I don't hear the two tunes as the same, even though they can be (but aren't always) played with the same chord patterns) and they share some melodic phrases.   

I say if you hear two songs played instrumentally only, and you can tell which is which, then the tunes aren't the same.   "Great Speckled Bird" really IS the same tune as "I Am Dreaming Tonight Of My Blue Eyes," which is the same tune as "The Wild Side Of Life" and the reply "It Wasn't God Who Made Honky-Tonk Angels."    "Love Me Tender" really is the same tune as "Aura Lee." But many of the other "examples" I hear are really better described as "derivative" rather than "copied."


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 05:05 AM

"Elgar's Pomp & Circumstance march used for Land of Hope & Glory, itself sung best (IMO) with the words "Lloyd George knew my father".
Cheers, Rowan <<<<

But that goes even better to Onward Xtn Soldiers by Sullivan!
---
The Act III entracte in Bizet's Carmen begins with what sounds like a steal from Moore's The Minstrel Boy To The War Is Gone.
---
Peter Bellamy used to assert that, tho the linking narrative of The Transports was set to traditional tunes, all others were his own composition. I pointed out to him the strong similarity of I Once Lived In Service to Fair Maid On The Shore. he said I wasn't the first to have made the point, but he claimed he didn't know, had never heard, FMOTS, & asked me to sing him a verse; after which he admitted he must have heard it somewhere once and retained it in his subconscious, the derivation being so manifest.
---
I have remarked elsewhere, on a thread devoted to Tomorrow Belongs To Me in Cabaret & its similarity to The Lorelei, that it is even more like The Rout Of The Blues.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 05:46 AM

...& talking of Onward Christian Soldiers: when Sullivan wrote his tune for Baring-Gould's words, surely he must have had See The Conquering Hero Comes, from Handel's Judas Maccabæus, ticking round his head somewhere?

~M~


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:01 AM

Some years ago a friend of mine did a gig , and had a Local Singer
do THREE of my mates songs as his own ! Turns out my mate had been bootlegged and a copy passed to the pillock who then moved to a new area and claimed to be a Songwriter using my mates songs ! Dim or What ?? If I ever hear any one claim a song as 'His' when I know it isnt , I would NOT be polite in my comments !


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:04 AM

and 100


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:11 AM

Ralph McTell's "Streets Of London" is Pachelbel's Canon.
Strange, when I hear 'Streets of London' I thing of Beethoven's 'Ode to Joy'


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: BobKnight
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:05 AM

Tramps and Hawkers/Hatton Woods/I Pity The Poor Immigrant(Dylan)
Scots Wha Hae/Land O' The leal
Goodnight Irene/Ramblin Round


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:58 AM

Bob Dylan's Dream / Lord Franklin (I believe the melody is older than both of them.)
With God on Our Side / The Patriot Game

No stealing there; Dylan generally gave credit for the melodies he lifted (which practice, as others have noted, is as old as folk music).

Paul Simon also visited/studied with Martin Carthy.

The Pachelbel's Canon melody has been used as the melodic basis for many subsequent songs.

When performers copyright songs that use melodies and/or lyrics from older songs, what's copyrighted is their performance and their arrangement (if there is any difference from the earlier). In such cases, the earlier song is not removed from the public domain. The original song, lyrics, and melody are still in the public domain and may be performed freely. It's only the new arrangement that's protected.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:39 AM

The Patriot Game, as Dominic Behan never denied, used one of the better-known tunes of The Bold Grenadier.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: JohnH
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 05:39 PM

About 100 years ago I helped to run a Trad. English club. I got a letter from the PRS requesting a rake-off. I wrote back that all the songs were of "Ancient or Anonymous authorship so go away..". They suggested that the people who collected should benefit. When I asked "Why..." they stopped writing.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:21 PM

We had a 'local' PRS person turn up at Tudor Folk some years back so we religiously filled in his form - Lyrics/music by Performer , or Trad arr performer - Never saw him again !


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: LadyJean
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 12:19 AM

I refer people to Kipling's poem, "When 'Omer Smote 'Is Bloomin' Lyre"

I will likewise mention that Alan Sherman was regularly sued by singers whose best known songs he had parodied. Harry Bellefonte, was, apparently, one of the first. Sherman parodied his song "Matilda" as "My Zelda". Afterwards, whenever Bellefonte sang "Matilda", someone in the audience would shout "Zelda". I can see why he wouldn't be happy about that.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,JB
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 05:27 AM

Has anyone mentioned The Recruited Collier / Sweet Thames Flow Softly - both great songs with pretty similar melodies (as someone pointed out on another thread, - sorry can't remember which)

I sometimes think that what makes a lot of folk songs so great is that they are almost like musical archetypes in a way - I believe that's why they resonate so deeply within (some of) us & hence often get knowingly or unknowingly copied from time to time.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 04:06 AM

Now pay attention!....

This one first...


..and then go here!

Just thought I'd turn you on to that.

Regards,
GfS


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 05:00 AM

"Roseville" Fair and "Good to See You" by Allan Taylor seem to be remarkably similar.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 07:51 AM

When I hear 'Streets of London' - I think 'Streets of London'.....

Blessed are the simple, for they shall be simplified....


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Can o' Worms
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 09:54 AM

Samuel, oh how you've changed....


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 03:43 PM

astonishing!

More.......this is amazing!


More to come!

GfS


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 03:58 PM

..even more.....this is really something....

........looks like somebody's workin' too hard!

I've often heard that 'Coldplay' was notorious for this, but 'Avril LaViegne' and 'Green Day' are even worse!

There's More!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 05:44 PM

"And of course there's always "I'm Thinking Tonight of My Blue Eyes"/"Great Speckled Bird"/"Wild Side of Life"/"It Wasn't God Who Made Honky-Tonk Angels", and whatever else uses that approximate tune."

The Prisoner's Song: If I Had The Wings of an Angel, oe'r these prison bars I would fly..."
Probably the first recorded of that tune.

The reasonable answer is pretty simple. Tunes are recycled all the time. Even lyric themes in different forms. When a song is folk-like, by definition it is familiar. When it is sophisticated like as in a show song, then it isn't automatically familiar and takes some getting used to as an entity. For example, Jerome Kern's "All The Things You Are". One would be hard put to find an antecedent of this tune. The same can be said for Cole Porter's songs or Stephen Sondheim's or George Gershwin's. In the arena of popular music from the 60's on, folk melodies found their way into the radio songs. This means that their popularity was based on their familiarity which came about because those tunes had been heard before in other songs. A lot of this was the result of BMI (Bad Music Incorporated) which came about as a broadcasters rebellion against ASCAP wanting to raise their rates for airplay. Folk-like tunes which didn't come under ASCAP jurisdiction were used freely. (BMI actually means Broadcast Music Incorporated as contrasted from
ASCAP (American Society ofComposers, Authors, Publishers).

A song as an entity requires a uniqueness that transcends lyrics and melodies. Even though Woody probably recycled the tune for "Ludlow Massacre", that song remains unique enough to have motivated Howard Zinn to activism

In short, when it comes to tunes, who cares? Lyrics define the mood and feeling of a unique song which is amplified by an appropriate tune. An original folk tune is a red-herring.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 08:01 PM

LukeKellyLives mentioned Loch Lomond and Calton Weaver: I didn't see the resemblance at first, probably because they are so different rhythmically, but yes, more or less same sequence of notes: but Red is the Rose is pretty well identical to Loch Lomond.
Anyone else noticed that the first four notes of Flower of Scotland are the same as the Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves from Verdi's Nabucco? (And when playing Scotland v Italy the Italian national anthem is like a Verdi aria!)
Even closer to Pachelbel's Canon is the intro to Ivan Drever's "Long December Night".
Another one to the same tune as Star of the County Down is Van Diemen's Land.
Several songs to same tune: Puir Roving Lassie/Kind Hearts and Companions/Green Grow the Laurels (the latter being sung to a variety of different tunes)
"Groovy Kind of Love": straight from a Clementi sonatina.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:32 AM

Which Van Dieman's Land vesrion would that be? The one that comes to my mind [Harry Cox's?] is to same tune as Gallant Frigate Amphitryte/Painful Plough.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:56 PM

Starts "Come all you gallant poachers": see
http://www.contemplator.com/england/vland.html

HOWEVER: the tune in this link is NOT the one I know: but it does say in the notes in the L-hand column that it is sung to a number of different tunes - adn the version I know IS "Star of the County Down" tune - identical!


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 06:09 PM

See and hear here: Barbara Dickson's voice, I think. (Van Diemen's Land)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-Uk7K3lve0


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: Genie
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 10:24 PM

GFS, thanks for those hilarious links.   Yeah, it's interesting how often the same chord pattern pops up in so many songs.

But it's quite possible for two very different melodies to have the same chord pattern. That's what "partner songs" and canticles, etc., are about.   "Bill Bailey" and "Just Because" are such songs; they can be superimposed on each other but they are hardly the same tunes. Same goes for the duets Irving Berlin did, such as "Play A Simple Melody" and "I Want To Listen To Rag" or "I Wonder Why" and "You're Just In Love." "It's A Sin To Tell A Lie" and "Sit Right Down And Write Myself A Letter" - another two very different songs that have the same chord pattern and can be done as a duet.

Come to think of it, how many really different chord patterns are there in blues songs? Or country/western?   Yes, many times the tunes themselves are identical or nearly so. But many more times, the same chord patterns underlie melodies that are not even close to being the same.


And, Stringsinger, the tunes I've heard for The Prisoner Song are not the same as Honky-Tonk Angels / Great Speckled Bird / etc. But I'm not surprised if sometimes that tune is used for The Prisoner Song; it fits well.


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 11:11 PM

Genie, Thanks for your reply. I agree with you about the chord patterns, Most common, of course, is 1,4,5(blues) but also a lot in folk and country. Another is 6,2,5,1, the pattern for 'Autumn Leaves', and many many standards, but it also is in 'Alice's Restaurant'.
I just put one together, for a quick gig that started with 1,4,5, then went into the 6,2,5,1..just for good 'measure'..(no pun intended). The melodies are done in a way that the chords are not as detectable, but the listener's ear will draw to what 'should' be heard next, so you accommodate that..but later pop in a 9th or 11th...and it really puts a little 'musical surprise' into the melody. Try it..(my gift to ya'). Actually you can add lot's of different stuff, to mix the melody around a little!

Also, 'Every Breath You Take'(I'll Be Watching You') by the 'Police', the chord pattern is just old 'doo-wop'...with the 9th's added to it!
Have fun with that one! (I don't play it).

Anyway, Best Wishes To You!

GfS


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 04:41 AM

Tattie ~~ many thanks for that beautiful Van Dieman's Land.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: 'Are you SURE you wrote that?'
From: oldstrings
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:03 AM

"I once sent Peter Yarrow the lyrics to this poem I found, called "The Lover's Task", Sugesting that he and the trio (Peter Paul and Mary) should record it. His reply was: "Riddle songs are out." A few years later these two kids who called themselves Tom and Jerry, changed their name to Simon and Garfunkle and recorded the song as Scarborough Fair. And yes PS takes credit for it."

Sharmagne, there are a number of riddle songs similar to Scarborough Fair, and several versions of Scarborough Fair. Paul Simon learned the version he recorded (minus the added bit sung by Garfunkel) from Martin Carthy. I was present at the time; Carthy and Simon were living in the same house.

Sidney Carter wrote Lord of the Dance to the tune of the Shaker hymn
Simple Gifts, and I don't recall him acknowledging the source. He may have learned the tune from Aaron Copland's "Rodeo". Copland, however, did identify Simple Gifts as his own source.


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