Transposing Chords and Keys

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:11 AM

and dealing with mixolydian[flat 7] tunes means using major chords, because they do not have a flattened third, d mixolydian mode uses d major chords or d power dyads first and fifth only

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:47 PM

DOH !!!
A link would have meen good !
Sorry
Yer 'tis

Masterkey

Andy (Now late for session)

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:45 PM

Well hello again. I said I'd come back when I found what I was looking for I did, so I have
Have a look here, a brilliant invention. Does exactly what it says.

Cheers,
Andy
Off to session - in any key they like!!!!

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 08:47 PM

I like Frank's idea about picking a particular song and taking it through the key changes--

It reminds me of a game I used to play with my old folkdance band--We played a lot of Serbian and Croatian tunes, and often, those tunes had a B melody that was simply the A melody in the key of the fourth or fifth--just to mix things up, I'd jump to a random third key after the B melody, and jump around til I went back to the original key for the last time--

They got to be really good at following random key changes, but, since I was the lead, I never had to follow--so I never really learned to do it--

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 05:43 PM

I think M.Ted has it right. I would simplify it. (It helps to know your scales but you can also count on your fingers.)

1. Take a chord progression from a song.
2. Turn the chord (relationships) into numbers (preferably Roman Numerals)
3. Turn the "numbers" into another key.
4. Eventually train the ear to hear "numbers"

1V //// | I////| V7 ////| I //// ||

This progression works for This Land is Your Land, Midnight Special, Little Darlin' Pal of Mine, many Calypso chord patterns, in 3/4 time, Deportees, Jolie Blonde and probably many more.

Dealing with minor keys is a little more tricky.

Parallel minor keys are just like the major keys but labeled minor such as
IV min //// | I min //// | V7 //// | I min //// ||

The tricky part is when you deal with Relative Minor Keys. This is always the VI minor of any given key. (It has the same key signature as the "Relative Major".

A minor has the same key signature as C major. A minor is the VI minor of C.

But you can sort out that mess when applied. Sometimes you have to have dual labels for chords.

For example: Ghost Riders in the Sky

VI min //// | I //// | VI min //// | ////| etc. or it could be written

I min //// | bIII (major) //// | I min //// | ////

Where did that bIII (Flat III) come from? Well this is where it gets a little more advanced.
Here you might have to know your scales to make it work.

If Ghost Riders is in C major, no problem. Most would say that it is.
but if it was in A minor, which it possibly might be thought of that way,
the III in A is C#. C (natural) would be a Flat III in A.

In short, stick with the easier tunes....I, IV and V to start.

But this is the most important thing....you've got to those numbers to transpose quickly. You do that by practicing changing the chords to numbers as many new keys as you can and them. Eventually, you will hear the numbers.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 05:10 PM

Check this out:

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:54 PM

Here you are http://www.logue.net/xp/

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: patriot1314
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:43 PM

there's a really good site here....

http://www.logue.net/xp/

(still can't do the clicky thing)

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 01:46 AM

You get the prize, Songster Bob! The prize being one of the handy dandy chord transposer charts that I made with a view to straightening this problem out once and for all--the thing was, no one showed up for the uke session the day I brought them, or ever again--

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 03:50 PM

I believe George Formby used to have a whole bunch of ukes tuned to different keys in the wings when he was performing, so he could sing songs in different keys without having to use different chords.

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: Songster Bob
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:48 PM

"and the A players had to play..."

C fingering, if the G's played a "D" form. A is a whole tone higher, so the fingering must be a whole tone lower.

I tune my ukes in D, instead of C, so I have this problem all the time.

Bob

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:29 PM

It also comes up when two guitarists, for example, are using the same tuning, but one is capoed up a few frets. Though at least there's a visual clue there.

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:16 PM

It's not really thread drift, McG--it is an important factor when you are trying to help people deal with this situation--I don't disagree with you--I posted what I did with the awareness that Don was looking for alternative approaches--

Here is a real life folk/traditional music playing situation where this very problem came up--

A couple years back, there were a group of Ukulele players who started getting together hereabouts--the problem was that some tuned a full step above others(A instead of G), and some, the baritone uke people, tuned a fourth below one and a fifth below the other --the same E fingering on one instrument was an A on another, and a B on another.

When the Bari players (whose tuning was the same as a guitar) played a G fingering, the G tuning players had to play a D fingering, and the A players had to play...well I still haven't figured it out--if you were a good ear player, you just closed your eyes and things worked, but if you looked at the fingers and tried to interpolate, you were dead---

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 02:56 PM

I should have said, or whatever are the typical chord progressions in the kind of music that you play---the problem of course, is that when you work are working with minor keys or modal scales, you have to teach the interval pattern for the paricular scale that the melody uses so that your students can recreate the scale in the key they are transposing to--in addition to the peculiarities of the various minor scales, Lydian scales have no IV chord(because there is no fourth--a "C" Lydian scale has F#), and there is no dominant V chord in a Mixolydian scale, because there is a flatted 7th)--It gets messy fast;-)

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:32 PM

There are different ways of learning and different ways of teaching, and the same size doesn't fit everyone, M Ted. That's not a problem when it's recognised.

It becomes a problem when teachers, or the people who lay down the rules for teachers, start thinking, the way they feel comfortable with is the only way, or the only right way. Unfortunately that happens much of the time.

That criticism applies just as much to the practise-comes-first type as it does to the theory-come-first type.

But this is drifting the thread away from the excellent practical advice which has been forthcoming.

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: DonMeixner
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:13 PM

Hi Tootler,

I'm going to stick with some very basic conventions. The commonest methods for the basic stuff. While I certainy hope the next Adrian Legg or Christopher Parkening is in this batch of beginners I'll be pleased if Joe Bagodonuts learns to play "Stewball" in two keys without a capo.

Go to www.theguitarleague.com and see what we do. And thanks for the help.

Don

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: Tootler
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:54 AM

M.Ted's Chord pattern only applies to the major keys.

The pattern of major & minor chords is different for minor key/modal tunes. They need to know about this.

A thought. Should you tell your students about the classical convention of using a major V7 chord rather than a minor when harmonising minor key tunes?

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:40 PM

Yes, leeneia, a good one. So second nature when changing keys that I'd've forgotten to mention it. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:03 PM

Hi Leeneia,

Modulation? I hadn't thought of that but it is a great idea to add it in. Thanks.

Don

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:02 PM

Mr. McGrath--There are two different methods here--one is simply a pencil and paper transposition--substituting the chords and notes in one key for the ones that correspond in another--the other is considerably more complicated: hearing a progression in one key and playing it back in another--I can teach the first one, for the second, I can only show you the starting point--

As to the way minds are wired--every teacher explains things the way that they understand them--if you need practice first, and your teacher thinks theory first, you must find a teacher who thinks your way--

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: nutty
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:28 AM

If I'm transposing notation I move up (or down ) by counting semitones.

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:50 AM

Some people, maybe even most people, learn that way, M.Ted - theory or structure first, and the practice builds on that - but others don't, it's quite the other way round. It's not them being lazy or pretending, it's a matter of minds being wired a different way, or something like that.

Somehow it seems very hard for a lot of teachers to really grasp that...

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:42 AM

Suppose I want to play a song in one key and then continue playing it in another key, perhaps to accommodate a second singer or instrument. In between the two versions one would play the V7 chord of the new key.

That would be a good thing to teach the class.

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: Shaneo
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:14 AM

More info. here

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:46 PM

All great ideas! Thanks a lot.

Don

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:41 PM

1) Explain to them the whole step-wholestep-half step-whole step-whole step-whole step-half step scale formula, and teach them to write out their scales in every key--

2)Teach them the chord numbers(based on the position of the note in the scale) and show them how I is major, II is minor, III is minor,etc-

3)Explain the basic I-IV-V progression and have them work it out in each of the open keys--

4)Have them play through the progession in each of the keys, and have them memorize them--(it's a very useful thing to know, from the time you start out, and it also straightens them out from the get-go as to why some songs that sound the same have different chords)-

5)Explain that most songs use one of several basic chord progressions(and that more complicated songs are generally combinations of basic progressions), and give them each of the chord progressions, written by number, then have them find the chords for each of the basic keys--

6)Give them chord charts for some basic tunes and have them figure out what type of progressions they are, by number--]

7)Have them use the numbers to figure out the chords for these songs in other open keys.

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:38 PM

Last year I bought an amazing transposing slide rule gizmo. It transposes to from any key, works out chords and does several other clever things. Unfortunately it's a hundred odd miles away at the moment so I've been searching Ebay for more details but no luck yet. I will chase it down and post here.
Andy

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:09 PM

If the gods wanted guitarists to transpose why did they give us capos?

Just kidding, of course. The Interactive Transposition Wheel is pretty cool and I'm putting together a paper one to carry around.
- Phil

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:21 PM

I made a bunch of those simple chord wheels by gluing the paper one I printed off onto leftover file folders, and cutting them up. Every one of my song binders has one, and so does each each one I have given to band members. I CAN do it more simply-- the authoharp's setup does it for me and I can just move my fingers over to the left or right for keys I can sing in-- but if I am doing a batch of songsheets, as I often am, the wheel makes it fool-proof.

~S~

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:16 PM

The Circle of Fifths is a good basic thing to know too.

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:14 PM

That's a better link, McG. I have one I got from C.F.Martin & Co. years ago and was looking for something like that.

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:09 PM

Here's an online interactive chord wheel - with a link to a do-it-yourself version to make out of cardboard.

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:07 PM

The 'simplest' transposition method, even for those who have had some degree of musical theory training, often just uses the method of simple writing the 2 scales down, one above the other.

Little plastic 'slide rule's are commercially cheaply available - you just slide to line up the two relative keys and read off the transposed notes and chords.


BTW, when you are doing musical theory training to pass the exams to demonstrate you can do this, you have to practice doing it a lot to be comfortable with it. You don't NEED to do the exams to benefit from doing the practice btw.... :-)

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:04 PM

Combine with arts & crafts class and make a chord wheel.

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 06:59 PM

Tell them to go as if it were their ABCs.

To go from A to D with the following chords and to count as they go. Remind them that it starts over after G, reverting back to A, often used as a higher octave rather than lower.



A
F#m
D
E

A, B, C, D
F#m, Gm, Am, Bm
D, E, F, G
E, F, G, A

Or just use this chart.

A // B // C // D // E // F // G //
_________________________________
E    F#   G    A    B    C   D
D    E    F    G    A    Bb    C
F#m G#m Am   Bm   C#m Dm   Em

Subject: RE: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: Steve-o
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 06:48 PM

This is just "related" to your question, but I'm quite impressed with a Lyrics site that offers instant transposition for you....check out chordie.com.

Subject: Transposing Chords and Keys
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 06:30 PM

I have been asked to teach a class in transposing chords and keys for beginning guitar players. I transpose fairly well and I know a few good methods but I am wondering if there are others out there of which I have never heard. I'll post this stuff on The Guitar League website and give credit where credit is due.

Any advice? Mnemonics?

Thanks

Don