Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?

Subject: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:53 PM

Last October, when I started editing the YouTube Permathread, I practised my HTML by typing the code into Notepad, then bringing it up to view in IE. (This was a tip on one of the Mudcat HTML threads)

It worked well then, but when I try to save a file now, Notepad doesn't give me the option of saving it with an HTML suffix. My recollection is that I used to be able to do this.

Is there something elementary that I am missing here ?

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: MMario
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:56 PM

Are you doing "save" or "save as" You should be able to "save as" a text document though you may have to manually change the extension.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: AlexB
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:04 PM

Two options. When saving as, select "all files" from the save as type dropdown, and then manually write the html extension, or just rename the file when it isn't open to an html extension.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:05 PM

best option...get Metapad, which does HTML and a lot more then Notepad.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Scrump
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:18 PM

Yes, it sounds as if you have somehow lost the association between file type .html and Notepad. Mad Person's instructions should work.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:03 PM

I still can't get it to work.

This is the relevant post from the Mudcat HTML Help thread.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Doing HTML Offline
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 23 Sep 00 - 03:06 PM

Here's a tip from MudGuard. If you have unlimited Internet service (or don't mind paying for the time), feel free to practice HTML in one of our practice threads, or start a new practice thread. We occasionally clean out the practice threads by deleting messages, so you don't need to worry about overburdening the Mudcat. Just remember that we don't allow embedded objects (like images and sounds).
-Joe Offer-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a suggestion to reduce these HTML test postings.

In your favourite text editor, create a new file and save it. The name of the file does not matter, but the extension should be .htm or .html
Now type whatever you want to test (what you would have posted here) in that file.
Now open this file in your browser (type the path to it in your browser's address bar). You should see the contents as a web page.

If you now save this address in your bookmarks/favourites, you can easily test whatever you write in your file.

Besides reducing the number of postings here, you can do this offline so you can save money doing this

This is just a suggestion, if you have problems with HTML I am always willing to help! But I think many of these postings don't need to be here...

MudGuard
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:36 PM

The elementary thing you are missing is that you have to type the '.html' extension yourself, as part of the filename you are saving. Notepad won't put it in for you.

It's that simple. If you want to do any serious html work, though, you'll certainly be better off with a text editor that will display html tags in a different colour. Makes life (and locating mistakes) much easier.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 02:31 AM

What you may have done previously:

Step 1: Create a text file. You can do this in notepad, wordpad, or in Word.

Step 2: Save the file as a .txt filetype and close the original program.

Step 3: In Windows Explorer, change the .txt file extension to .htm.

You only need to do those three steps once to get a file to work with.

In Windows Explorer, (NOT Internet Explorer) find the .htm file:

        If you double-click on the .htm filename, it will open in your browser, if the .htm filetype is associated with your browser in the usual way.

        If you right click on the filename you can choose to "Open With" and pick Notepad.

If you open in notepad, you can edit it however you want, and when you save it should keep the same .htm file extension. You can open in notepad (right click and "open with" notepad) as many times as you want, as long as the file already has the .htm extension. It will keep the .htm when you save, if that's what it had when you opened it.

If you change any part of the file name when you save from notepad, it usually will default back to .txt. If you just Save, with no changes to the filename, it will keep whatever name, including extension, it had when you opened it.

If you right-click on a page here, and choose "View Source" it will open in notepad. You can save that page from notepad to your own drive. Unless you use the "all files" filetype choice and type the .htm extension in, it will save with .txt extension; but once you've changed it to the .htm extension, you can open (right click) in notepad from your own drive and it should save back to your own drive as .htm as many times as you want as long as you don't change the filename.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:23 AM

Hi, Murray - the other thing you can do is type your stuff up in a Mudcat message-posting box, and check the "preview" box. When you hit "submit," you display a copy of your work. You can practice HTML as much as you like this way, and nobody can see your work until you've perfected it.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Scrump
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:37 AM

Murray - if you can't do it any other way, just let Notepad save it as (e.g.) blah.txt, then go into the folder in Windows Explorer and click on the filename to change it to blah.html (where blah is your filename). (Or right-click on the file and select "Rename" option from the popup menu).

It may display a popup alert saying something like "changing the file type may stop it working - proceed anyway?" or some such message - just say OK (or whatever) to proceed anyway.

Then you will be able to open it in your browser.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: aussiebloke
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 05:37 AM

Hi Murray

Good luck with unlocking the mysteries of HTML and other assorted mysteries (file tag extensions, file associations and the like).

I use the freebie version of Notetab to edit HTML: http://www.notetab.com/

If I can ask you a back-to-basics question, when you look at the file in Windows Explorer - do you actually SEE the three letter file tag extensions? filename.txt or filename.htm or filename.html or whatever? File tag extensions are not displayed routinely by Windows, the default setting is OFF, for doing your kinda stuff, it is handy to switch them ON: http://www.helpdesk.umd.edu/documents/0/670/

Once you can see them, it makes it easier to edit them, and you might want to edit a filetag from .txt to .htm or vice versa sometimes.

Try this for an experiment. Right click the file and select rename. Change the three letter file tag extension backwards and forwards from .txt to .htm and back again, pressing enter each time you have finished and see what happens?

In the most common set-up, when you have typed .txt and pressed enter, the file will look like a little Notepad page and when you double-click the file it will open ready for editing in Nopepad; similarly, when you have changed the file tag to .htm and pressed enter, it will look like the blue E (assuming your default browser is Interent Explorer) and when double-clicked will open in IE.

Windows associates the three letter file tags with particular programs, so *.txt is associated with Notepad; *.htm with your browser and so on. Sometimes associations can go awry, double-clicking a file can get an unexpected or undesirable result, but maybe I'll save that part of the story for another time.

What I find easiest when I'm editing HTML is to have the document saved or named as an *.htm file, and open in a text editor (Notetab/notepad/metapad) so that you can edit, and at the same time have the same file open in a browser, so that you can quickly view your work.

This is the eternal wheel of the web-master;
edit content in text editor
save your changes
refresh to view in browser

edit, save, refresh, edit, save refresh, edit, save, refresh, edit, save refresh, edit, save, refresh, edit, save refresh, edit, save, refresh, edit, save refresh, Are we there yet? No, keep going. edit, save, refresh, edit, save refresh, edit, save, refresh, edit, save refresh, edit, save, refresh, edit, save refresh, and on it goes...

Have fun, and thanks for looking after the youtube permathread.

Cheers all

aussiebloke

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:54 AM

What is it that isn't working? You can't save the file (as htm or html--are you using a Mac or a PC, by the way?) or you can't VIEW the file in IE?

You do have to give it a few clues as to how to display. In the file itself you need to have an introductory

<html>

<head>

</head>

<body>

all of your page code

blah blah blah blah

</body>

</html>

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Scrump
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 10:43 AM

In Notepad, when saving a new file, click on Save As...

Then in the popup "Save As" window you need to click on the "Save As Type" dropdown and select "All Files" - you should then see all the files in the folder, regardless of type. Then in the filename box, you need to type blah.html, then click on the Save button. This should save the file with name blah.html, which is what I assume you want? (Of course, replace 'blah' above by the actual filename you want to use).

Try it - does that work?

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:07 PM

Just in case file extensions are not being displayed, and that's part of the problem:

Start | Settings | Control Panel
Double-Click on "Folder Options."
On the "View" tab, just below the bottom of the first window (scroll down) there should be a "Hide extensions for known file types." REMOVE the check from the box beside that entry and Windows Explorer will display the extensions.

In the same "Folder Options" on the "File Types" tab, you can check to be sure that file type .htm is associated with the browser you want to use, so that when you double-click on a file with .htm extension that's where it will open. Click on the file type, and it will display the name of the program that's set to open that type. Use the "Change" button to put a different program in.

(From my WinXP, but I don't think the locations of these have changed in recent versions.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM

thanks everybody for the input. I am going to have another crack at it and see if I can get it to work.

I see from some of the replies that there are better ways to do it than I was doing before, but it just irks me that I can no longer do what I used to (the same way as I used to)

thanks again to everybody for the suggestions.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 01:30 PM

I never used Windows Explorer previously to do this, btw, that much I do know !

In fact I remember writing to Joe to tell him that Mudguard's tip worked in IE but not in the AOL browser.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 02:19 PM

Murray -

The only easy way I could think of offhand to open a file without using Windows Explorer would be to do all your saves to desktop, where there'd be an icon for the file that you wouldn't need to look for. (????)

I think that I'd still just flip the filename back and forth between .htm and .txt extensions to be able to display (the .htm) or edit (the .txt), although using only the .htm extension you could right-click the icon or the filename to choose notepad, or left-click (or double-click) to open in your browser. (more ????)

One of the reasons I prefer flipping the extensions is that I usually rename when I save something I'm editing, to keep the original for a "go-back" if I screw it up, and if you change any part of the name in notepad, it automatically defaults to the .txt extension.

BUT:

Once the file has the .htm extension, notepad can open it, if you "send it there" (Right-Click "Open with"), or if you open notepad and use File Open to get it.

If you open notepad and use File Open to load the .htm file for editing, you'll have to use the "All File Types" selection in order to see a file with anything other than a .txt extension; but that's pretty simple to do. You can open the file with .htm extension in notepad and see it as text.

In notepad, "Save" will leave the .htm intact when you've finished your edits, and will overwrite the original file. "Save" means "put it back in the same place with the same name," and that includes the same extension it had when it opened, so the .htm extension won't change.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:23 PM

If you save a Notepad file as an htm file, and you've given the file itself the standard html stuff I mentioned and added your text, then you can do a couple of things. You can go to the START button in the bottom left and when that menu pops up click "Run" and a line appears asking what you want to open. Navigate to the htm file and it will open it with whatever is your default browser.

You can also open your IE (or whatever browser) and go to the File drop down menu at the top and from there go to OPEN and again, select the file you want to view.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM

"the other thing you can do is type your stuff up in a Mudcat message-posting box, and check the "preview" box. When you hit "submit," you display a copy of your work. You can practice HTML as much as you like this way, and nobody can see your work until you've perfected it."

You will get an error message that some html code is "prohibited" if you try this - this is because Mudcat is set up to deter malicious fiddling to the page - which is itself in html... :-)

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 07:02 PM

And if you use Foolestroupe's preview method, you really do want to copy your input box content so you can paste it into a text file somewhere - if you want to actually use, or keep notes on, what you worked up.

(He just assumed you'd realize that. That's 'cause he thinks everybody's as smart as he is.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 07:24 PM

"And if you use Foolestroupe's preview method"

Well, John. I'd never actually accuse you of being wrong, but I would like to respectfully submit for your consideration that Joe Offer originally suggested that idea earlier in the thread.... :-)


" (He just assumed you'd realize that. That's 'cause he thinks everybody's as smart as he is.)"

That's just so true, John ... and you wouldn't believe the shit that used to get me into, until I finally had the test at age 40 that showed me up as a SD+5, and I finally began to realise that I had been making a terrible ASS-U-MEption... :-)


:-P

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:32 PM

I did see Joe's suggestion to use the practice threads, but I didn't see mention of just using "preview" posts - or maybe I just forgot about it by the time we got down here. I have been known to forget an incidental or two, although for important stuff I can almost always remember even lots of things I never knew.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 10:47 PM

For the first time in ages I found Notepad to see what the fuss was..and as Murray says, it would not offer to save it as html. I asked it to open an HTM file, and it could not render (display) an HTML file, it could only show me the code. This is the case with many such programs. One can enter and save the code in them, but only certain ones can show the results. As I said above, Metapad WILL save it as html, thought not render it.

Here are 3 other programs (free) which can help...but as far as I can tell, ONLY Textshield Fusion can actually display HTML pages. That page offers you version 589...Here is a link to a newer version of TextShield Fusion(644)
(If you ask it to open one, it asks if you want it to use the 'rich text' converter.)

You could also use a special HTML editor, of which there are many...here is one free one...Selida, which will show you what the code looks like.... (a WYSIWYG editor)

Now the way to get a complete rendering of an HTM file is to open it IN your browser, which, after all, renders HTML all day for you.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:52 PM

Notepad is a text editor; naturally it will not render html, but will display it as text. That is the whole point of a text editor. Neither will it offer you the option of saving text as html (unless you have opened an existing html file in Notepad and then selected the 'save as' option; in which case the original filename, with extension, will appear by default), any more than it will save plain text in a binary format such as rtf.

Since html is just a text file with an .html extension (or .htm if you prefer microsoft proprietory usage), you have only to follow the simple instructions given much earlier in this surprisingly long thread to achieve the desired result.

It really is childishly simple, you know.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:01 AM

Notepad is my favorite for moving html around because it scrapes off all of the Word formatting. You get unadulterated text, and you can see your code as you enter it. If you look at source code for any pages (and as suggested, you can save it there) you can cut and paste easily.

Oh, I know, John and others have told us how to get Word to stop saving this or that format. But it's a pain in the butt to poke around in there to find the way to stop it from doing what you don't like, so I use notepad. You can use Wordpad as an intermediate program--some of the formatting. I have it on the computer, I think, but don't use it. I figure using the high end and the low end suit my needs. Why fool with something in the middle that doesn't do either of the others very well?

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 03:37 AM

If you want really fundamental text only files, the ancient and honored method is to open a Command window (formerly called a DOS window) and:

"COPY CON >FILENAME.EXT, Enter
Type your text, and then
Ctl-Z, Enter, to end the copy.

In the same Command window, you can type "EDLIN FILENAME.EXT" to edit the text file.

Long ago, in a faraway galaxy, that's all we had, and we were AMAZED at all the powerful things we could do with it. "FILENAME" could be (almost) anything up to 8 characters long, and "EXT" could be up to 3 characters, but it would always be a TEXT file. MIRACLES would happen if we used "BAT" for "EXT" and then just typed the name of the file. It would DO THINGS, even to other files on our computer. Clever people could even tell it what files to manipulate.

At first, the "filename.ext" appeared in all-caps, regardless of how we typed it, and when a new version of DOS appeared that actually recognized the difference between u.c. and l.c. letters in filenames, some people became so confused that they just COULDN'T HANDLE IT ALL. So they bought Macs and left the community. A similar migration of malcontents happened, many (DOS) generations later, when it became possible to use more than 8 characters in the "filename" part.

Archaeological artifacts suggest that the knowledge of that era was "magnetically etched" on plastic disks up to nearly a foot in diameter; but alas, the "magnetic etchings" have mostly faded and the knowledge is lost. A few ancient texts describe the ways of doing all this, but they're mostly covered with dust and mold and even the best preserved ones are becoming unreadable.

BUT IT STILL WORKS IN WINDOWS XP.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 04:26 AM

Just a minor point arising from the above: There seems to be some confusion above as to whether the filr type (extension) should be .htm or .html

Both will work in a browser (assuming the file content is in HTML format), but it's important to make sure you use the right one for what you are doing. If you have a link to your HTML file from another webpage, the link needs to know which it is named as (blah.htm or blah.html), so you will need to make sure if you change the file type from (say) .txt to .htm or .html, that you set it to the correct one of these two possibilities, or the links to your page won't work.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 04:57 AM

OK, just to verify that I am not quite the HTML idiot that I might appear to be, I will type out the text that I originally saved in Notepad (with an HTML suffix) and tried to open in IE with the full pathname in the browser window. This text was copied from an HTML tutorial site, and the reason I wanted to try it is because I am developing a website (or rather my son is doing it for me)and this looked like a useful feature.

I am replacing the pointy brackets with square brackets for the purposes of putting the text up here.

[html]
[head]
[title]My Frames Page[/title]
[/head]

[frameset cols="120,*"]
[frame src="menupage.htm" name="menu"]
[frameset rows="*,50"]
[frame src="welcomepage.htm" name="main"]
[frame src="bottombanner.htm" name="bottom"]
[/frameset]
[/frameset]

[/html]

Now , when I save this is in Notepad (with the .HTML suffix) , and then type the pathname in the IE Browser, the message comes up "Internet Explorer cannot open this page"

I have tried other small pieces of HTML code and they work fine, but this one doesn't for some reason. This is what prompted the thread in the first place.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:03 AM

I notice that you have links to files with type '.htm' in your HTML source above. Are you sure all those files have type '.htm' and not '.html'?

You say you are saving the file with '.HTML' suffix. On some servers the case is important too, i.e. '.html' might be found but '.HTML' wouldn't. You should make sure the filetypes are all consistent, e.g. all .htm or all .html.

If a file is named 'blah.html', you won't be able to link to it as 'blah.htm' (or vice versa).

Could that be your problem?

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:12 AM

no,scrump. that is not the problem.

the file is saved on Notepad as "stringgs.html", it shows up in the list of files as an IE file (has the little icon beside it) but will not show when I type the pathname on the browser window.

other, test, files saved in exactly the same way open up no problem.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:14 AM

I should add that what I expected to see when I opened the file in the browser was a framed box somewhere in the screen ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:18 AM

Maybe you should create a simple html file first, without frames, to narrow down what your problem is.

Instead of the [frameset... [/frameset] lines, try creating a file with [body] text [/body], and see if that works OK.

If it does, it will point to a problem with the frame tags.

If not, it will be easier to find out what the problem is without the complication of frames.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:37 AM

I assume that the problem must be the frame tags.

As I said, I copied that particular piece of code from a HTML tutorial website, I was just curious to see what it looked like ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:16 AM

Murray, I saved your example to my hard drive, then converted square brackets to triangular. I then loaded it into browser.
I get a page divided into 3 sections. Each of them conains an error message - "The page cannot be displayed" in Internet Exploder; - "File not found" in Firefox.
The error is because I do not have on my hard drive a web page with the name of the file it wants to load into each part of the frame.
It is looking for three seprate HTML files named "menupage.htm", "welcomepage.htm" and "bottombanner.htm" (set by the src="" tag.) If it cannot find these files it gives an error message. It doesn't much matter what the files contain as long as they are HTML and have the correct name (in this case ending .htm and not .html as that would be a different file as far as the web frame is concerned).

You can always use a "dummy" file untl you have real content, e.g.


[html]
[head]
[title]menupage.htm[/title]
[/head]

menupage
menupage
menupage
menupage

[/html]
obviously with triangular brackets...

This would be saved as menupage.htm in the same location as the "stringgs.html" file. Likewise for welcomepage.htm and bottombanner.htm.

Does that help?
Qack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:28 AM

Another thought.
Is your browser looking in the wrong place?
It is important if you are typing in longhand the location of a file on your hard drive that you put the full "address" without any mistakes, for example my file is stored at "F:\Portable Apps\PortableFirefox\menupage.htm" If I make a mistake typing, it would not find the file.
Quack
GtD.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:31 AM

IE will pop up that same warning if:

a. The basic page is defective and can't be loaded.

b. A linked object on the page can't be loaded.

c. The url (path\filename) can't be found.

If it's b, often the error message obliterates other partially loaded bits of the page, so that it looks like it's the whole thing when it's actually just some embedded bit.

Sometimes you can tell which is going on, but sometimes it can be difficult to tell which has happened.

The basic outline looks good - according to my html ref book, but a path/name error in any of the src objects could look like a more general error. "Error message" actually means "leads you to make errors."

You can eliminate a typing error (usually a path error) when you put the "url" in to load the file into IE by opening Windows Explorer, finding the file, and double-clicking it, since that way you know that the right file was sent to IE. Alternatively, instead of typing the file path/name in IE, click File | Open, punch the the Browse button, and go to the file and click it. Either way assures at least that IE will know the correct filename and its full path.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 07:47 AM

"for important stuff I can almost always remember even lots of things I never knew"

That's impressive, - but I can only often think of things I never learned though...

I used to use Notepad to edit HTML - until I got an editor that highlights the proper 'bucket brackets' - saved me heaps of hassles with typos - if you get things wrong, huge chunks of code turn black instead of all the proper pretty colours. It can also edit any programming language - you just need the correct little 'smart files' that describe the entities...

" Sometimes you can tell which is going on, but sometimes it can be difficult to tell which has happened."

... funny, that reminds me of some of our conversations, John.... :-P

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 10:19 AM

That example was set up to tell the page how to display, but wasn't going to give you a good test of your html because it is referring to other files. Are they extant in the same directory (folder)? Try the simplest of pages. You can actually pick up the text I entered above, paste it onto your file (here) and enter some text to give it something TO DISPLAY and try it.

If you're saving this file on a PC, then save it something like test.htm and if you're saving it on a Mac save it as test.html . The extension makes a difference to the computer in question.

Do you really want to use frames? Tables are easier and are back in fashion because they're a lot easier to work with and view in the long run.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 10:28 AM

If you're saving this file on a PC, then save it something like test.htm and if you're saving it on a Mac save it as test.html . The extension makes a difference to the computer in question.

Interesting. I thought you could use either on a PC, as long as you link to it using the correct extension (file type) htm or html. Is that not so on a Mac?

(I think 'htm' only came into being because of earlier Microsoft Windows and DOS only allowed 3 characters for the file type. Later versions allowed longer ones so both can be used now, except by users who still have old versions of Windows, etc.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:28 PM

At the risk of causing Malcolm to go into apoplexy, can I just ask one further elementary question ?

Windows Explorer.

That isn't the same thing as MSN Explorer is it ?

The point being that when I click on the "All Programs " button in the Start Menu, there is no sign of "Windows Explorer" ...

Should I be seeing it listed there ?

Thaks again for everybody's input btw, I have got the HTML thing nailed now ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:31 PM

oh jeez, I just realised it can be found under "Accessories" ...

OK that's it, let's let the thread die !

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:13 PM

The specific answer is:

"MSN Explorer" is a different program than "Internet Explorer." Theoretically MSN Explorer and Internet Explorer are "interchangeable" web browsers, used for viewing "web content" from the internet or from other places, including the content of files on your own machine.

"Windows Explorer" is a different program than either of the above, and is intended mostly for viewing and searching in the lists of files on your own machine.

*****

MSN Explorer is a program¹ specific to MSN. It is produced and provided by MSN and is considered a "third party program" by Microsoft.

¹ "program" is a euphemism in lieu of other things I'd prefer to call it, that might be construed as "impolite."

MSN is an "associated/subordinate company" vaguely and indirectly connected to Microsoft, but having entirely separate management. Their apparent sole purpose and function is breaking Microsoft software in ways that permit increased "spying for profit," "push advertising," and and other "exploitation of the internet for cash."

One of the early versions of MSN Explorer literally rendered Win95/98 inoperable for any purpose other than connecting to the MSN web service, AND COULD NOT BE UNINSTALLED except by reformatting and starting from scratch. Uninstall instructions eventually were developed (not by MSN), but IMO lots of individual users were seriously harmed by that version, and MSN NEVER admitted any error or offered any assistance to those affected.

This incident, even though I was not one of those affected, was responsible for the creation of a "Permanent Member" category on my PERSONAL SHIT LIST, and MSN Explorer remains there beside Sony and TurboTax. (It's a very exclusive group.) It's a personal thing.

MSN Explorer is represented as being a "replacement for Internet Explorer" and the only "technical description" extant for it is "it's better." In the absence of any other information, I personally will assume that means it's "better for MSN, and f**k the user," as they persist in their refusual to tell me why it might be "better for me."

Needless to say, I don't use MSN Explorer, but of course it is a personal choice. Recent versions appear to do no more visible harm than Yahoo and AOL browser replacements/plugins (none of which are better than "almost Windows compatible" IMO.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:21 PM

Die? Never! At least, not until SRS or someone else answers my question above! :-)

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:25 PM

since the thread is still breathing, and SRS has been summonsed, let me just say to her that I am not going to use frames on my website, I will use tables as she suggests, since I already have at least a (very) rudimentary comprehension of how tables work.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 09:38 PM

To partially address Scrump's question about .htm vs .html:

Since the addition of "long file names" in DOS systems, the .html file extension in file names is permissible on DOS-based (Windows) machines, although it's still more common to use just the .htm.

All recent DOS/Windows systems (or those other ones) should recognize both .htm or .html files as being HTML file type and should default to open them in a browser, unless the user specifies something different.

Windows programs that offer a "Save As Web Format" option will usually default to the .htm extension, but it really doesn't make any difference if you change it to .html.

I suspect, but can't confirm due to lack of real interest, that the same or similar Mac programs may still default to the .html file extension, but all indications are that they can handle .htm and .html files interchangeably just as Windows can.

All recent browsers should recognize any file with either a .htm or a .html file extension as "an HTML file" and should have no difficulty opening and displaying the file as a "browser page."

If you link to a file, from within a browser page, the filename that you type in the link should match the filename where the file itself is stored. If the file was saved with .htm extension, the link should call it with the .htm extension because that's its correct filename. If the file was saved with .html extension, the link should call it with the .html extension, because that's its correct file name.

The requirement that the same name, including filename extension, used to save the file should be used in the link applies to the .htm/.html ambiguity and to other "variant" conventions like the usual Windows .jpg that may also be called (usually by Macs) a .jpeg. Most, if not all, Windows programs recognize .jpg and .jpeg as "the same filetype," but default to .jpg when you save. So far as I know, Macs can recognize both .jpeg and .jpg files, although some Mac drivers habitually use mostly the .jpeg form (probably a default custom) in their own tiny world.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 01:36 AM

I've started using more PNG files because they're as stable as a GIF but use a vast array of colors. I work on a PC so I save jpg files (which I still use most often--pages load faster with them--PNGs look good, are become standard with Dreamweaver and Adobe, but they're big).

If you link to a file, from within a browser page, the filename that you type in the link should match the filename where the file itself is stored. If the file was saved with .htm extension, the link should call it with the .htm extension because that's its correct filename. If the file was saved with .html extension, the link should call it with the .html extension, because that's its correct file name.

Rule of thumb I've always used, out of habit, is to use the three letter extensions on the PC, so the file would end .htm . When I look at web addresses I have a little internal dialog that runs and when I see the .html extension I figure the page was designed on a Mac. That's the way it works on my campus, you can tell the Mac and the PC folks apart when you visit their web pages.

When you design your pages, when you're using tables you can put tables inside tables. I always put dimensions in for photos because it helps the page load more quickly, and I always define how photos and tables should be aligned. Web pages aren't incredibly difficult, but a good tutorial will help a lot for reference purposes. The one I use (I don't know if this is the latest edition, but you'll find when you shop around) is the Visual Quickstart Guide. Elizabeth Castro's HTML for the World Wide Web (mine is the 5th ed.) has good examples of how to do things, tells you what is current in WWW3 protocols, and has some incredibly helpful appendices where you can find html code charts. Two of the secretaries at work have had scanning and some web work added into their job descriptions in the last couple of years, and they've both asked me for help to get them started. We've sat down and gone through the basics, then I've gotten each of them the appropriate Quickstart book to do with the work they're doing. They've done fine.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: GUEST,Geoff the Duck
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 05:04 AM

John, thanks for the run down on MSN. They have been a thorn in the side of the PC I am typing on. Mainly because children keep putting MSN Messenger on it. Once it is there, all the useful programmes constantly crash and prevent the computer being used for serious periods of time.

Murray - you say you solved the HTML problem. Are you going to tell us which piece of speculation or advice cracked it? It's nice to know who nailed the problem.

Murray - Windows Explorer is what is called a File Manager and its original basic purpose was to allow you to look at what files are where, move them to someplace else, copy them, rename them or delete them. For a lot of tasks you open two copies i.e. two separate windows which are showing the content of two different directories (folders). You can then fairly easily drag files from one window to the second to copy the file.
There are better file managers about. My favourite is Directory Opus, which costs cash, but I got a version on a magazine cover disc. Dopus was originally developed on the late lamented Commodore Amiga, which was an incredibly user friendly computer. Dopus uses an option of two panels within the same window which can be switched between "active" and "destination" for copying'/moving files. It also does a great deal more, including a viewer pane which displays pictures and text files and also adobe PDFs. It allows you to change the names of files as a batch or copy/move with a different name. It allows you to select all filenames containing specified characters (e.g. *.jpg will find all the Jpegs, *xmas* would find your christmas named documents).
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 05:41 AM

"When I look at web addresses I have a little internal dialog that runs and when I see the .html extension I figure the page was designed on a Mac."

If I try to save this web page it says it is "thread.cfm.html" - this is not a Mac or a Windows box.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 05:50 AM

"When I look at web addresses I have a little internal dialog that runs and when I see the .html extension I figure the page was designed on a Mac."


Not always so, I have often used .html and I've never used Macs. I got that when I first learnt html, from someone who objected to the MS 3-character limit and deliberately used '.html' to show his objection to MS attempts at world domination. I followed his example, and I know there are many others who do.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:42 PM

I have never used a MAc, but all my web pages are .HTML (case sensitive server)

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: AlexB
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:49 PM

I always use .html, and I'm not a Mac user. My sister started on a web design course at Uni and they used .html rather than .htm, and were not Mac based.

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 01:09 PM

Geoff, I can't single out one particular reply as the one which caused the penny to drop.

I realise now that I was doing this in an unnecessarily complicated way when I started doing the YouTube thread three months ago. I do remember that Google desktop featured in the process, but I really don't want to retrace the steps ...I do remember that what I was doing then worked in IE but not using the AOL browser.

However, by reading all these posts I realise now that (in AOL at any rate) all I have to do to open the file is click on FILE in the toolbar and then on the filename. This I assume is the AOL shortcut to Windows Explorer.

As Malcolm stated above, it really is childishly simple (once you understand it)

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 06:28 PM

I'm an old DOS user, and some habits are deeply ingrained. That's the way it used to be, and though there are exceptions to the rule, I notice around here that the htm/html appearance is pretty consistent to PC vs Mac use.

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 08:22 AM

There are some "little quirks" in the way that your hard drive saves files that actually make it worthwhile to remember the old DOS naming conventions, although the benefit you get from it may not amount to a lot.

It varies some with which HD format you're using, but long file names can actually waste a small bit of disk space. Windows ALWAYS converts the long file name to a "DOSSY" 8.3 name, by truncating the long name, replacing the first character with a ~, and replacing the next characters at the beginning with numbers, one at a time, until it gets to something that doesn't duplicate another file's DOS name in that folder.

The DOS name is actually used by the machine, to handle the file, and the "long name" is, to some extent, just for display. BOTH names have to be part of the file header. YOU SHOULDNT try to use the DOS names directly, because the DOS name can change if the file gets moved to a different place on the drive.

The exact mechanism isn't explained, but it's asserted that a long filename that contains a space takes "twice as much header space" as one that doesn't. A DOS name can't contain a space, so the "filename with spaces" may get stored in its original form, as a "modified long name without the spaces" and also as the DOS name, so it uses essentially the long-name space twice, plus the DOS name space. For the name without spaces, another character probably is inserted, rather than just removing the spaces, but nobody says what that character is.

With long filenames, you can have "dots" (.) anywhere in the filename, and a fair number of people seem to think that's a good way to break a filename into "meaningful parts." (Catalog.tools.pointy things.with teeth.pdf) Unfortunately, some "parsers" read the first three characters after the first dot to try to guess what filetype it is, and others read the first three characters after the last dot, (and sometimes there are NO characters after the "real dot"), so occasionally this can make a file try to open in the wrong program, or make a particular program refuse to open a perfectly good file of the kind it's supposed to handle. The dots, like spaces, are "illegal" in the DOS name, except to separate the filetype, so a "replaced" version has to be created and stored, along with the "real long one," and the DOS name.

Using a character that's DOS-legal, like "_" instead of the "." for a separator may save some space and avoid confusing some programs. (Catalog_tools_pointy_toothed.pdf perhaps, to get rid of both the dots and the spaces.)

There are some characters that are "prohibited" even in long file names, and a couple of additional ones that can't be used in the DOS-names. Unfortunately, when you try to burn your files to a data CD, you may learn that a slightly different set of characters are illegal on CDs, so some of your filenames may get changed. A CD filename can only be about half as long as a legal long filename in Windows, and a deep "tree," with lots of levels of subfolders, that's perfectly fine on your hard drive, may fail completely on a CD.

If the original naming is done using only the characters legal in Windows, DOS, and Joliet (the usual CD std), archiving (to CDs) can be a lot simpler.

The whole intent of letting people use long filenames was so that the users wouldn't have to worry (much) about this stuff - so don't worry. But if you do any significant amount of data CD burning, you may have to give it some thought when it comes time to burn. Whether minimizing the use of long filenames, and LeavingOutTheSpacesInThem is really any more helpful than skipping over cracks in the sidewalk (to save one's mother's ...) is debatable, but some of us may do it out of respect for tradition anyway.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Notepad : HTML suffix ?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 08:47 AM

I REALLY regret that Commodore went belly up and the Amiga stopped being developed. Their filing system didn't need a dot/file extension as it was clever enough to recognise that a file was .PCX graphic or .WAV sound or a .TXT text file just by the structure of the file. Of course it had a limit to how long a file name could be (about 25 characters?) and it stored them in a more sensible way. It Multitasked invisibly, rather than freezing EVERY other programme whilst one task was being finished. And of course this was about 15 years back when Microsoft didn't even have windows.

Talk about progress!
Microsoft haven't even caught up with the back end of last MILLENNIUM.

Quack!
GtD.