BS: Is this Racism?

Subject: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Just another Guest
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 11:14 PM

NEW YORK – Civil rights activist Al Sharpton on Thursday took Sen. Joe Biden to task for calling Democratic rival Sen. Barack Obama "articulate" and "clean," questioning how the description reflects on other blacks....

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20070201-1439-biden-2008.html

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 11:19 PM

Dear Just another member posting as a guest: If you mean the link, it's a Union-Tribune article.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Just another Guest
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 11:22 PM

I'm not a member. I mean the incident. Can members pose as guests?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Alba
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 11:32 PM

What is your opinion regarding Joe Biden's remarks 'just another Guest'?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 11:54 PM

Äîðîãîé ÇÓÁÅÖ: Ïîæàëóéñòà âîçüìèòå ïòèöó â êàæäîé ðóêå è ñäåëàéòå ëèìîííûé ñîê. Ïðèâåòñòâèÿ ê Âàì è ìàòåðèàëó êàê ýòîò.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 11:56 PM

Sheesh. I should NEVER try translations with profound answers. Especially from Old English to Russian. Well, I'm off this thread. Take care, JAG.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 10:42 AM

Al Sharpton is surely looking in the wrong direction as to who it is Brack Obama is being contrasted with by those epithets.

I'd have thought that "articulate" is intended as a way of pointing out a significant way in which Barack Obama differs from the present incumbent in the White House. And "clean" - surely that's meant to point out a significant difference from the previous one.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Scoville
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:32 PM

Or the current one, if we're talking about youthful substance use.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 08:39 PM

If I heard correctly, Biden said that Obama was the first African American candidate who was "articulate" and "clean". I don't know enough of Biden to know if the possible implications of that are representative of the man, but on the face of it the remark could be called a prime example of damning with faint praise, and of evidence of underlying racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 11:57 PM

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy."

Again, its the intention.

Obama - the first mainstream (as opposed to a minister of the church?) African American running for president

He is articulate and bright.

He's clean-cut and nice-looking or he's 'untarnished by political scandal' and good looking.

Seems to me Biden should think more carefully before speaking but did he intend it to be a slur? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 07:15 AM

My response: Yes, his remarks were racist. Did {and does} Biden realize that his remarks were {are} racist, I don't know.

Here's some other views on the Biden-Obama is mainstream, clean, articulate comment, and other Bidenisms:

YouTube video clip "Responding to Joe Biden":
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/2/3/214328/6634

**
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2006/12/05/publiceye/entry2232091.shtml

December 5, 2006

"Explain To Me Why This Isn't A Scandal

It's not every day that we see a Democratic Senator from the Northeast pandering to Southern Republicans by associating himself sympathetically with the Confederate cause during the Civil War – so isn't it newsworthy when that actually happens? Senator Joe Biden of Delaware has made no secret of his desire to test the presidential waters for the Democratic nomination. As part of that quest, he showed up in South Carolina, an important early primary state, where he took the unusual step of speaking to a mostly Republican audience at the Columbia Rotary Club. According to The State's preeminent political reporter, Lee Bandy, here's part of what Biden said to his strange-bedfellow audience:

"I want to thank you all for allowing me a trip here to speak to only Republicans. It's like my hometown. I just won every district in my state except the one I live in," he quipped.

The crowd howled.

The senator then pounced on a member's announcement that the club would hold its annual Christmas party at the state Department of Archives and History where members could view the original copy of the state's Articles of Secession.

Biden asked, "Where else could I go to a Rotary Club where (for a) Christmas party the highlight is looking at the Articles?"

Biden was on a roll.

Delaware, he noted, was a "slave state that fought beside the North. That's only because we couldn't figure out how to get to the South. There were a couple of states in the way."
In all fairness, as Bandy points out, Biden's remarks were clearly made in jest as he warmed the crowd up with a laugh or two before moving into his speech on the Iraq war. But it's not the first time Biden has made similar comments. Appearing on "Fox News Sunday" in August, Biden made the case for his candidacy in the South, according to an AP account at the time, saying, "You don't know my state. … My state was a slave state. My state is a border state. My state has the eighth-largest black population in the country. My state is anything from a Northeast liberal state."

Then again, Republican Senator Trent Lott said he was only joking in 2002 in comments he made at the 100th birthday party for his colleague Strom Thurmond. Lott noted that his home state of Mississippi had voted for Thurmond when he ran for president on a segregationist ticket in 1948. Lott then added, "And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years, either." Lott was clearly kidding too. But the furor over those remarks led to Lott's resignation as the Republican leader in the Senate (although he was just recently elected to the party's second top spot in the wake of November's elections)...

Biden's contention that hailing from a "slave state" will help his appeal to Southerners is troubling on several levels. Maybe the Lott episode was blown up in the first place. Still, I'm not sure which is more disturbing – Biden's apparent belief that this somehow helps him politically or the audience's reaction. According to Bandy's report, "the crowd loved it." .

**

From Jonathan Chait: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-chait4feb04,0,6086004.column?coll=la-util-opinion-commentary

February 4, 2007
"Joe Biden's just a barrel of gaffes
Not only is he largely unknown outside Congress, but the Delaware senator and presidential hopeful is his own worst enemy.

...In addition to his uncontrollable verbosity, Biden is a gaffe machine. He ran for president 20 years ago but had to abandon his campaign when it was discovered that he had plagiarized speeches from a British politician, substituting in key details to make the story his own.

In his latest effort, Biden wasted no time subverting his already microscopic chances. On the day of his announcement, he mused about Illinois Sen. Obama: "I mean, you got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy."

In Biden's defense, the quote was widely misunderstood. Having listened to it, it's obvious that Biden was not saying Obama is the first mainstream African American candidate who is also articulate and so on. He was saying he's the first mainstream candidate — meaning ideologically mainstream, unlike Carol Moseley Braun, Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson — and that he's articulate and so on. He wasn't calling Jackson or the others inarticulate. To be sure, this is still a pretty cringe-inducing way for white people to talk about African Americans. There's a famous Chris Rock routine in which he complains about how people describe Colin Powell as "articulate," as if it were a surprise that a secretary of State can speak well.

And, of course, last summer Biden attempted to endear himself to an Indian American supporter by telling him that in Delaware, "you cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent." Not only was this an offensive line, it didn't even make any sense: The observation, familiar to anybody who watched a comedian on cable television 15 years ago, is that Indian Americans are the only ones who work in convenience stores, not that they're the only ones who shop there. The man can't even keep his condescending cliches straight.

Biden looks as if he's the product of a laboratory experiment designed to create the world's worst presidential candidate. If the Obama gaffe doesn't knock him out of the race, something else will. I doubt he makes it to Iowa."

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 07:19 AM

He can't be a racist. He's a Democrat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 07:30 AM

Also, here's a comment on this subject from http://bookerrising.blogspot.com/2007/02/black-activists-react-to-senator-joe.html
Booker Rising: News site for black moderates and black conservatives


Black Activists React To Senator Joe Biden's Comments About Senator Barack Obama

posted by Shay; Feb 1, 2007

"In calling Sen. Barack Obama (D-Illinois) a "storybook" candidate based on his view that Sen. Obama is "articulate, bright and clean," Senator Joe Biden (D-Delaware) has angered members of Project 21, who say that the white liberal Democrat's remarks are elitist, condescending and insensitive. "Joe Biden's comments are completely unacceptable and clearly elitist," said Ak'bar Shabazz, a member of the black conservative organization. "By praising Obama as the first 'articulate, bright and clean' black presidential candidate, he isn't only insulting the senator from Illinois, but all black Americans who strive to polish themselves and provide a positive image in the community. Biden clearly needs to open his aristocratic eyes and realize that there are many well-qualified, educated and capable blacks out there who are serving our country in the government and the private sector."

In an interview recently published in The New York Observer, Sen. Biden said of Sen. Obama: "I mean, you've got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man."

While particularly directed at former black presidential nominees Reverend Jesse Jackson, Reverend Al Sharpton, former senator Carol Moseley Braun (D-IL) and the late representative Shirley Chisholm (D-NY), Project 21 members view the comments as insulting to other blacks. They also believe that Sen. Biden's comments reveal what they consider the liberal establishment's animus toward minority politicians who don't follow their lead. Sen. Biden has been a fierce critic of black conservatives such as Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Supreme Court Associate Justice Clarence Thomas.

"This proves Senator Biden should stick to using other people's words instead of his own," said member Kevin Martin. "A few months back, he was caught stereotyping Indians as convenience store and donut shop employees. Now, he gives Senator Obama the backhanded compliment of being a 'storybook' candidate because he is 'articulate, bright and clean.' It seems Obama's liberalism seals the deal, considering the abuse he and his colleagues lump upon 'articulate, bright and clean' conservative blacks such as Condoleezza Rice, Michael Steele, J.C. Watts and Clarence Thomas."

"Joe Biden's comments are a conspicuous example of the true liberal perspective of blacks," said Project 21 Chairman Mychal Massie. "Blacks are good enough to be used, but at the end of the day elitist liberals view them as inferior and treat them with blatant disregard. Even though I have unapologetic philosophical differences with Barack Hussein Obama, it cannot be denied that, pursuant to intellectual and linguistic ability, Biden is unarguably inferior to Obama. Perhaps Biden's comments can best be described as jealousy for his own shortcomings."

My response: Wow! Tell us how you really feel. However, Sen. Joe Biden's comments were borderline racist. When both black liberals (like Rev. Jesse Jackson and Donna Brazile) and black conservatives are on the same page in calling something foul, I pay particular attention."

-snip-

At last count 36 comments were posted in response to this post. I would imagine that at least some of these posts are from "black moderates and black conservatives".

For the record: I'm not a Black conservative. I just happened upon that blog this morning, and I'm not one of the 36 people who posted responses to Shay's comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 07:37 AM

Btw, the "Booker" in the blog's name that I cited in my last post refers to Booker T. Washington.

Here's two online biographies of Booker T. Washington:

"Booker Taliaferro Washington (April 5, 1856, – November 14, 1915) was an American political leader, educator and author. He was the dominant figure in the African American community in the United States from 1890 to 1915.

Washington was born into slavery to a white father, and a slave mother in Franklin County, Virginia. He eventually learned to read and write while working at manual labor jobs. At the age of sixteen, he went to Hampton, Virginia to Hampton Normal and Agricultural Institute, now Hampton University, to train as a teacher. In 1881, he was named as the first leader of the Tuskegee Institute in Alabama. He was granted an honorary Masters of Arts degree from Harvard University in 1896 and an honorary Doctorate degree from Dartmouth College in 1901.

Washington received national prominence for his Atlanta Address of 1895, attracting the attention of politicians and the public as a popular spokesperson for African American citizens. Washington built a nationwide network of supporters in many black communities, with black ministers, educators, and businessmen composing his core supporters. Washington played a dominant role in black politics, winning wide support in the black community and among more liberal whites (especially rich northern whites). He gained access to top national leaders in politics, philanthropy and education. Critics called it the "Tuskeegee Machine." Washington was criticized by a relatively few radical blacks of his time period for his failure to embrace a hard line on civil rights issues such as black suffrage. Washington said that confrontation would lead to disaster for the outnumbered blacks, and that cooperation with supportive whites was the only way to overcome pervasive racism in the long run. Some of his civil rights work was secret, such as funding court cases. [1] Washington's efforts included cooperating with white people and enlisting the support of wealthy philanthropists, helped raise funds to establish and operate hundreds of small community schools and institutions of higher education for the betterment of black persons throughout the South.

In addition to the substantial contributions in the field of education, Dr. Washington did much to improve the overall friendship and working relationship between the races in the United States. His autobiography, Up From Slavery, first published in 1901, is still widely read today."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Washington


**

"For decades, Booker T. Washington (1856-1915) was the major African-American spokesman in the eyes of white America. Born a slave in Virginia, Washington was educated at Hampton Institute, Norfolk, Virginia. He began to work at the Tuskegee Institute in 1881 and built it into a center of learning and industrial and agricultural training.

A handsome man and a forceful speaker, Washington was skilled at politics. Powerful and influential in both the black and white communities, Washington was a confidential advisor to presidents. For years, presidential political appointments of African-Americans were cleared through him. He was funded by Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller, dined at the White House with Theodore Roosevelt and family, and was the guest of the Queen of England at Windsor Castle.
Although Washington was an accommodator, he spoke out against lynchings and worked to make "separate" facilities more "equal." Although he advised African-Americans to abide by segregation codes, he often traveled in private railroad cars and stayed in good hotels."

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/aap/bookert.html

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 07:46 AM

And, finally {meaning, this is my final posting on this thread}, here's excerpts from this column http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/02/04/obamas_race_dilemma/

Obama's race dilemma
By Joan Vennochi, Globe Columnist | February 4, 2007

THE LATEST CONTROVERSY involving Joe Biden confirmed the obvious about the senator from Delaware: Glibness has its risks.

It also revealed something about Barack Obama: The African-American senator from Illinois isn't sure how to handle race as an issue in his bid for the White House.

The last time Biden ran for president, he dropped out after admitting that he borrowed lines from an inspirational speech given by a British politician. Twenty years later, his own words undercut his announcement of another try. In a shoot-from-the-lips interview with the New York Observer, Biden described Obama as "the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy."

The words are controversial because they are an honest, if awkwardly stated, expression of the white establishment view of African-American politicians who preceded Obama -- that their looks, speech, or life style turned off white voters, making them unelectable on the national stage.

Obama's first reaction was restrained. "I didn't take it personally and I don't think he intended to offend," he said. "But the way he constructed the statement was probably a little unfortunate."

Later in the day, after other African-American politicians did take it personally, Obama issued a much stronger statement: "I didn't take Senator Biden's comments personally, but obviously they were historically inaccurate." he said. "African-American presidential candidates like Jesse Jackson, Shirley Chisholm, Carol Moseley Braun and Al Sharpton gave a voice to many important issues through their campaigns and no one would call them inarticulate." ...

He [Obama]doesn't want to be perceived strictly as a "black" candidate anymore than Clinton wants to be defined strictly as a female candidate. To be successful, a presidential candidate needs broad appeal, beyond race, or gender.

At the same time, Obama is dealing with the sentiment expressed recently by black author Debra J. Dickerson that "Obama isn't black." This is a distinction rooted in Obama's heritage -- he is the American-born son of a black father from Kenya and a white mother from Kansas -- as opposed to African-Americans descended from slaves.

If Obama allows a perceived racial insult to go unchallenged, the only African-American candidate in the 2008 presidential race risks offending African-American voters who are already ambivalent about his candidacy. If Obama labels every insult racist, he risks offending white voters.

Deval Patrick faced similar challenges during the 2006 governor's race in Massachusetts. He said he did not want to be "the black candidate." He distanced himself from others who labeled his opponent's tactics racist or "race-baiting." However, Patrick did not have to deal with the added complication that Obama confronts via heritage. African-American voters embraced him and helped elect him governor.

Biden's long shot candidacy to be president faces a new challenge after the New York Observer interview. In a flash, the Internet pegged Biden as undisciplined at best and possibly racist at worst.

Unfortunately, he displays an old-fashioned, establishment way of looking at the world, whether he is praising Obama as "bright and clean" at the expense of other African-American politicians; or praising his state's diversity, with last year's comment that " You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have an Indian accent."

Obama appeals naturally to those seeking a fresh perspective on race and ethnicity. Still, when race comes up, as it did in Biden's comments, he faces the old challenge: how to deal with it.

The same warning applies to Biden and Obama. Beware loose lips. They can sink any presidential candidate".

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 09:45 AM

Biden and all other candidates should be more careful what they say in public. There are so many people out there who are just waiting for one of them to attempt humor so thay can display their thin skins.
I'd still like to know what kind of deal Biden and the other democrats made with the republicans when they put Clarence Thomas on the high court bench. I wrote and asked him, but predictably, no response.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Alba
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 09:59 AM

That is how I seen Biden's remarks Dianavan.
Biden's remarks mearly proved that he is nowhere near as articulate as Obama.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 10:48 AM

And then the Democrats could opt for Ms. Clinton who is also articulate, bright and clean.
Two candidates who are nearly as good as just any white male who is assumed by default to be the cream of the crop even if he's as inarticulate and stupid as GWB.

Wolfgang (half sarcastic, half ironic)

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: heric
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 01:43 PM

Wekk, Clarence Thomas' first wife's maiden name was Ambush, so I guess you could get confused like that.

Sharpton may be a strange one, but he was directly insulted by the comment, so for once he has standing to shoot his mouth off.

>Biden looks as if he's the product of a laboratory experiment designed to create the world's worst presidential candidate. If the Obama gaffe doesn't knock him out of the race, something else will. I doubt he makes it to Iowa.< There you have it. It was just a gaffe, but we need some relief after Bush - someone who can speak well. That smile. That hair transplant. That sucking up to southern rednecks with race comments. That plagiarism. End it now. Next candidate please.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 01:43 PM

I think his remarks emphasize the problem with using racist or racism and exemplify the attitudes of many whites who think they are liberal and open minded. Half the time they don't realize that what they are saying is based on stereotypes. Out of ignorance they say things that are hurtful and just plain wrong.

When reading other comments by Biden, I would guess that he falls into that category. He actually thinks he can make an issue of Black and/or white to advance himself politically. What he doesn't realize is that his remarks are devisive. Someone that stupid should never be president but if you consider the current president, it shows that maybe thats the kind of guy America wants. He's playing to the crowd.

Obama is intelligent and articulate. That probably a sure sign that he won't become president and that has nothing to do with his skin colour, it has more to do with the American public who perceive intelligence as a threat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: heric
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 01:46 PM

Oh crap. Guest's post was deleted while I was writing and sending my response, above. (He had said that Thomas married Barbara Bush's niece, and that Sharpton shouldn't jump into this).

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 01:50 PM

Now if Biden had said said "I mean, you got the first mainstream African American running for president. He is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy", I can't imagine there'd be anything to object to.

Isn't it most likely that that actually would have been what Biden was meaning? After all, surely you couldn't get anyone who fitted that description better than Jesse Jackson did, when he was running for president? (As for "mainstream", Jesse wasn't that, because, in the circumstances of the time, there wasn't a chance he could win).

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 02:07 PM

I'd like to read more opinions from people of colour.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: heric
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 02:08 PM

On Mudcat, you mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 02:09 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 03:30 PM

We should remember that talk is cheap, and that people's words, whether we approve of them or not, are less important than their actions--the real racists, those who are the prime movers of our still very racist society, can do their work without ever saying anything "politically incorrect."

As to Delaware, it did not exist until a few days before the ratification of our constitution--Pennsylvania's state constitution abolished the institution of slavery, and so three counties broke away and formed their own slave-holding state--

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:24 PM

"That probably a sure sign that he won't become president and that has nothing to do with his skin colour, it has more to do with the American public who perceive intelligence as a threat."

Nasty and cheap shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 06:28 PM

Not just America. One of the most damaging things that can be said about a politician in the UK is that they are "too clever". Or sometimes a politician will be put down as being "a lot cleverer than he makes out".

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 10:28 AM

Again, its the intention.

... his remarks were racist. Did {and does} Biden realize that his remarks were {are} racist, I don't know.

.... should think more carefully before speaking but did he intend it to be a slur? I don't think so...

These quotes from upthread represent the age-old debate at Mudcat about racism-- whether something can be said to be racism if one can determine what was the intention. In various forms, as long as I've been here, that's been exactly the place where people feel such a passionate difference-- and have such a hard time seeing the issues from the other's perspective.

I don't think an online forum is a setting where it can be properly addressed, in any way that would lead to concord.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 12:33 PM

"I don't think an online forum is a setting where it can be properly addressed, in any way that would lead to concord."

I'm not too sure about that. In fact I am inclined to think that an online forum can actually be rather a good place to discuss issues like this in a peaceful and non-confrontational way. It provides a chance for us to think about what we say before we say it, to revise it to make sure it is not open to misunderstanding, and also to make sure that we have understood what a post we are responding to actually says. Those kind of things are harder to manage in face to face discussion.

The fact that people quite often fail to use the Mudcat threads in that way is, I think, a pity, but it's always possible to ignore the posts like that, and refrain from responding to them. And quite often people who start off arguing in a confrontational way seem to learn to do it in other ways over time.
................................

I think the point here shouldn't be attacking this man for being a racist, pretty evidently he isn't, I'm sure. The point, I think, should be to learn from this example how easy it is to say things which are likely, quite reasonably, to be interpreted as racist, and to avoid doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Greg B
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 12:58 PM

Maybe Biden should have said something about 'great star-quality'
and left it at that. I think it's what he MEANT but instead
fell all over himself like Ellen Degeneres.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 02:39 PM

I'm not sure that I would be totally happy with a president who couldn't make the meaning of his words very clear, whatever the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 03:52 PM

Exactly.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 04:05 PM

But he's not going to be president, is he?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: JeremyC
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 04:12 PM

I'd like to hear more on this from people of color, too. I cringe at the word "articulate" and his apparent attitude, but I'm not a member of the group being insulted.

Also, this sort of reminds me of BlackPeopleLoveUs.com. Remember that site? It's an interesting look at white people's attitudes towards blacks. I thought it was interesting, at least (and yes, this site is years old, but I feel justified in linking it because most mudcatters are 20+ years older than me and thus not as internet-literate and hip as I am*).


*This is a joke, before anyone jumps down my throat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 06:30 PM

I still think "articulate" would have more likely have been with Dubya in mind as the contrast.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 06:45 PM

After all, wouldn't an implication that African American politicians are "inarticulate" be about as daft as a similar implication about Irish politicians?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 06:59 PM

I know that I said that I wasn't going to post to this thread again, but I wanted to thank JeremyC for providing a hyperlink to that http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/letters02.html website.

I'd also like to post several emails that visitors to that site sent in. I selected these emails because they say what I want to say better than I can:

"i wanted to write to tell you how impressed i was with your site. Just one bad cliche after another. Those of us who are non-white have experienced those tired situations more often than we can count and have exhausted ourselves trying to explain to "well-meaning" white people why it's banal and offensive and divisive to say those things.

Then i read the "Letters" page and was alternately howling with laughter and horrified at the sheer numbers of people who did not understand that this was parody. Just about the time my hope in humanity was bolstered by the wry and witty folks who made this site, i despaired at the uninformed, undereducated and ignorant, of all races, who cannot utilize simple common sense, much less a spell checker, ah well....thanks for the effort, in any case
a fan
Vicki "

**

"to me, the scariest people aren't those who are blatantly racist because you can spot them. it's those who are racist and have no idea. they are unwilling to acknowledge their ignorance and unwilling to understand.
excellent job with the site.
L "

**

"You guys are either some really in-tune white folk, or you guys have a lot of friends of color. Your site made me laugh and think about those times I've felt this way--especially when I've dated interracially.
(One guy actually asked me if my family knew what asparagus was...

And as for an earlier note wondering if this site tries to 'speak for' people of color--I don't think so. I, for one, am tired of being the brown girl acting like the race/racism monitor. (It's really exhausting, you know?) It's about time other people started keeping vigil.

Anyway, this was clever and sly. I'll be checking in to see what else you guys add (if you do).
Delia"

**

"The diversity of opinions shown in your email responses serve to demonstrate many of our problems, and makes it quite obvious that no race has a corner on stupidity, prejudice, hate, ignorance, poor taste, and the desire to perpetuate the problems between races; or love, intelligence, good will, consideration, humanity, and the desire to improve the diverse world we live in.

I'm a 21 yr old black male and I immediately *got the joke* as soon as I finished scanning your site. Thank you for raising quite serious "pet-peeves" some blacks experience in interacial friendships in a surprisingly funny and sarcastic way(I've gotten the "you're not like other black people" quite a few times myself). I encountered the site through www.livejournal.com. Unfortunately, the actual *point* of your website is lost on a lot of people(white and black). It's sad, cause if they just relax and try not to be so uptight they might take something from it to use in future friendships(as I'm sure you have in your experiences with your Af/Am buds). If you have an e-mail list to notify folks of future sites or projects like this, drop me a message and let me know! Later!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:05 PM

When you re-wrote for Biden: "Now if Biden had said:

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African American running for president. He is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy","

I think you got it right. I think that was all he was trying to say. Who instead of He. Amazing to think of it.

But I think with the addition of Azizi's articles, above, and the rest of his baggage, he is going to sink with or without this little error.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:15 PM

One guy actually asked me if my family knew what asparagus was...

I'm not too sure what asparagus is. I mean, I've seen it in shops, but I've no idea what cooks do with it, and I'm not sure I'd recognise it on a plate.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:17 PM

It's green stuff, McG of H. Vitamin pills take its place in a well-rounded diet.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Greg B
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 09:30 PM

I forget who the black pundit who was on the tube the other day
was, but I thought he made a brilliant point, much better than
Biden could. It may have been on 'face the nation:'

Obama is really the first African American presidential
candidate who the white mainstream voter might seriously
consider voting for. Who could, therefore, really win.
The candidacies of Shirly Chisholm, Jesse Jackson, Al
Sharpton were all 'statements.'

This guy could win.

And, he has the credentials, yes the real credentials. He
is a very distinguished lawyer.

Obama is, realistically, a 'mainstream' candidate. He is,
to use the electioneers' term, 'electable.'

Of course, once the Irish figure out that it's 'Barak
Obama' not 'Barry O'Bama' perhaps the excitement will
wane :-)

Seriously, there's a sense that this man may be the one
to do just amazing things.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 10:39 AM

I agree with Gred B's assessment.(above)

But the "articulate" was not in contrast to Bush -- I mean Obama is clearly more articulate than Bush. Most heads of cabbage are more articulate than Bush.

But the previous offerings of Black presidential candidates are either very inarticulate (like Jesse Jackson, whom many cannot even understand when he speaks -- there's a pretty funny comedian who does a routine impersonating Jackson and his inability to be understood), or they are articulate in the manner one might be considered articulate within a cultural framework (like Sharpton who can deliver a sermon but probably not a policy speech).

The "clean" comment was the real fire-starter. But it merely reflected the tacit racism of much of that (Biden's) branch of Democrat liberalism who still see themselves as caretakers of Blacks -- the inference of such hubris being that Blacks are incapable of fending for themselves.

Curiously, Barack Obama may represent an even more meaningful minority than "People of Color". He's a cigarette smoker. :^)

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 10:59 AM

"Clean" in relation to politicians has different connotations from in normal use. It's primarily about not taking money from people who are going to expect and receive favours if you get elected. That would be a nice change wouldn't it?

Here's a young Jesse Jackson on Sesame Street. I call that highly articulate.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: heric
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 11:05 AM

A smoker? Well Rudy Giuliani is bald!! Freaky combover, granted, but he is losing it. Is America ready for a bald president?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 12:54 PM

Man, John Hardly, that is the very first time I have EVER heard Jesse Jackson called inarticulate. He is an orator. And I'll bet you seven ways from Sunday that he writes his own speeches.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 12:55 PM

I hope so. His remark about "Jew landlords" didn't go over well.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: pdq
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 01:08 PM

Is America ready for a bald president?

Yes, if he is anything like Dwight D. Eisenhower.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 01:13 PM

Articulation is not about writing. It is, by definition, about speech. And when I hear Jesse Jackson interviewed on the radio I can hardly understand a word he says. I doubt very much that I am alone in that. And I doubt very much that that has anything to do with not agreeing with the man.

Jesse Jackson Jr. is articulate. I hear him iterviewed on the radio fairly often. I understand everything he says and everything he means.

Jesse Jackson may be articulate in that subculture way to which I second referred -- in the Jimmy Swaggart/Al Sharpton preacherman way that appeals to a whip-up-the-crowd play-to-the-masses way. Even MofH's link does not illustrate articualte outside of any but that narrow definition.

Obviously you don't see it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 01:40 PM

Here's a more recent clip of Jesse Jackson, addressing a conference. I haven't listened to more than a few minutes of this 42 minute clip, but from what I've heard it seems perfectly clear and articulate and easy to understand to me.

There are different styles of oratory, and the preacher style (black or white, American or whatever) is just one among them. Real orators know how to use the appropriate style for the audiences they are addressing, and for the mood of those audiences.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 01:55 PM

"it seems perfectly clear and articulate and easy to understand to me."

Yeah. Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 02:06 PM

Do I take it that was a "Right" after actually listening to a fair chunk of that, indicating you agree with my comment about it being perfectly articulate and easy to understand, John?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 02:14 PM

sorry, M, but I think that to characterize that as easy to understand you'd have to be wanting to be contrary.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 02:36 PM

MLK Jr also knew how to stir a crowd. Was he articulate?

I gather, John Hardly, that 'articulate' to you means only #1 in this dictionary definition?

1. uttered clearly in distinct syllables.
2. capable of speech; not speechless.
3. using language easily and fluently; having facility with words: an articulate speaker.
4. expressed, formulated, or presented with clarity and effectiveness: an articulate thought.

To me, articulate has always denoted #3.

As far as not understanding someone's 'articulation' we have all known of people from various parts of the world- hey, from various parts of one's own country - who are hard to understand. Ask the Alabaman what the New Englander said.

A cultural difference is just another element.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 03:26 PM

Do other people find Jesse Jackson hard to understand in that clip?

Maybe it's my hearing aid makes the difference, but he sounded clear as a bell to me. No harder to follow than any other American politician, and a lot easier than a lot of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 03:57 PM

I didn't have any trouble understanding him.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 04:45 PM

Nor I. Just now I listened to the whole speech. ANYONE who denigrates that man's thoughts - and his diction - as given in that speech at this moment has mush for brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Greg B
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 04:49 PM

I'd much rather hear Jesse than I would Dubyah's
incredibly CONDESCENDING tone. I swear if he began
each speeach by saying "Ah am going to speak slow-ly
and in little words so that you av-er-age AmerIcans
will under-stand' I think it might be less offensive.

Yech!

Obama, on the other hand seems to look straight at you
and have a forthright style which doesn't make the listener
feel as though the speaker feels he or she is an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 05:54 PM

Well, Ebbie, I've got mush for brains. There are countless words in that speech that I cannot understand what he is saying without later plugging them back into the context in which they were spoken.

And he's a funny hero to raise up in a thread that asks about racism -- he who spoke of "Hymietown".

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Greg B
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 05:57 PM

...there's got to be a nice Yiddish parody in Jackson's
famous slur...

Maybe do it up to a 'Shanty in Old Shanty Town.'

I'm only a hymie from old hymietown...

I'm sure Adam Sandler could do something with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:06 PM

John, unconscious/subconscious elements of racism - much as we may deplore them in ourselves and in others - is unfortunately part of the human psyche as we know it today and it can display itself at odd and embarrassing moments. I would guess that even you will find some in yourself if you delve deep enough.

And no. I had no difficulty understanding every word he said. I happen to like accents and dialects, so maybe I have an advantage over you.

And yes, I stick with the mush description. However, there is hope for you- given a chance, mush does firm up.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:11 PM

well, I guess I'm okay with mush. I have, after all, owned sled dogs for the past thirty years.

Mush on Yukon King!!! take me and Jesse to Hymietwon!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:15 PM

The point isn't about Jesse Jackson being admirable in all ways, it's about him being, pretty evidently, a highly articulate man.

I wasn't just joshing when I mentioned the hearing aid - I got one recently and it really did make a big difference. I found that people I'd thought were swallowing their words were actually pretty articulate in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:29 PM

ha, John, I say- glad to see that you stumbled over the "town" bit. There is hope for you yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 04:34 AM

Look, it's easy....If a Democrat says something racist, it's not really racist...if a Republican voices his opinion about anybody of another color, its racists.
Everybody makes up their own judgements and rationalizations, and if 'your' particular party fucks up, you make excuses and rationalize it away.

Simple.

Meanwhile, you can safely hold onto your political double standards....but of course, that doesn't mean 'you'!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 09:19 AM

The Fugitive from Intelligence (a.k.a. Shit-Sirrer from Nowhere)strikes again- resurrecting a 5-year old thread; but then he's a 5-year old, so perhaps its appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 09:46 AM

And GregF, states that the term "Black and a Democrat" is the same to him as "Dumb ni**er"

AND NOT A SINGLE LIBERAL HERE WILL TAKE HIM TO TASK FOR IT.

In Fact, the Mudelves conspired to cover up any mention by others of it, and removed threads started to discuss it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 10:07 AM

Bruce: get help. Your monomania is showing. Off your meds again?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 10:24 AM

"AND NOT A SINGLE LIBERAL HERE WILL TAKE HIM TO TASK FOR IT."

BB, you have taken Greg out of context. Saying it over and over won't change that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 10:35 AM

Shall I repost the thread entries?

I have them all on archive, since the mudelves removed many of my posts and several threads. GregF accused me of being a racist because he disagreed with me. Someone els had posted the "Black and a Democrat" comment, which he accused me of posting stating that it was "Dumb ni**er"

How did I take it out of context that a liberal here can make racist comments and accusations and not be held to account by the many here that agree with his politics? How do I take it out of context that he runs around ONLY attacking the people ( never the statements posted ) of those he disagrees with and NO ONE ever tells him to stop, yet the SAME people have told conservatives to stop attacking people?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 10:38 AM

It seems oK for someone that agrees with the "accepted viewpoint" to make personal attacks, but any attempt to clear the name and reputation of someone in the minority is not allowed, and the Mudelves take steps to insure that that only one side ( the "liberal") is allowed to do whatever they want without being held accountable.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 10:41 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:00 PM
...
Beardie is also the guy that, in the thread about cash only for second-hand goods, wanted us to know that the sponsor of the bill was a Dumb Ni--er.
"




So, Bruce, would YOU have accepted such an acquisition without defending yourself, or NOT objected when your replies were removed without note by Mudelves????

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 10:47 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:31 PM

For Max and Beardie's benefit, from the archives:

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: pdq - PM
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:37 PM

Just for the record, the idiot behind this bill is a member of the Louisiana House of Representitives.

He is Black and a Democrat." "

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 10:49 AM

BB, I don't want to play the game right now. I'm dealing with some disquieting news. But thanks anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 11:30 AM

Let him be, Bruce - he thinks he's having fun.

Interesting tho, that despite my correction and apology to him (which he somehow NEGLECTED to post) he whines about being "stalked", but then proceeds to follow my posts around - whether or not they have anything to do with anything he may have posted - and play his "delenda est Carthago" recording ad infinitum / ad nauseum.

Obviously some mental problems there.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: ollaimh
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 12:36 PM

racism undrlies everything in america, and britain canada australia and bew zealand. alglo culture has been at war in every part of the globe for five hundred years, and people are completley desensitized to the implications of that.

on mudcat , regulars have recently posted that obama is a third generation socialist, or alternatively a national socialist. totalyy and complketely fantasy based views of the world, but you have to live in fantasy to be at war all over the globe and call it freedom

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 04:20 PM

McGrath of Harlow: "The point isn't about Jesse Jackson being admirable in all ways, it's about him being, pretty evidently, a highly articulate man..."

Yeah...and if it wasn't for talkin' 'bout racism, he'd have a lower payin' job!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 07:18 PM

By saying that Obama was the "first", that is a racist comment. There is a history of articulate and well-spoken, intellectual African-Americans and Sharpton was right to call him on that statement regardless of how Biden actually meant it.

Also, there are lesser known African-Americans who are intelligent, articulate and they don't have to be famous to prove this.

Also, wisdom comes in many forms and sometimes the words from someone ostensibly uneducated can be quite profound and revealing.

Langston Hughes brought this out in his incorporation of African-American speech patterns in his poetry.

W.B. DuBois was an intellectual giant. There have been many.

This is why Black History month is so important.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 08:21 PM

I had a good friend, 'black'....James Baldwin was his name..he articulated it well, when he said, 'Left wing' and 'right wing' are on the same bird!'
Some of you may have heard of James Baldwin. He was also a writer!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 10 Dec 12 - 09:18 PM

> 'Left wing' and 'right wing' are on the same bird!'

He didn't say "far left and far right."

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 01:20 PM

The 'FAR' anything is still the same wing off the same bird.....and they both suck!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 01:46 PM

The only real racist that i saw here, was black and no longer posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: meself
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 02:07 PM

And that, folks, is why this part of the forum is called BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 03:13 PM

ake, what you are calling 'racist' in her posts is her forthright depiction of how we paler folks think and act in relation to our darker kin. Evidently a person of colo(u)r in a white world has never in our history been able to escape the label. Worse yet, we paler ones rarely are aware of it.

I am reminded of what President Obama said (paraphrased): Of course I grew up considering myself black; no one ever let me forget it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: olddude
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:22 PM

It would be wonderful if someone in authority would just delete these fucking things when they come up, nothing ever good comes of them

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 05:59 PM

The only real racist that i saw here, was black and no longer posts.

If you're refering to Azizi, you're even more of completely ignorant, fuckwitted asshole than I thought, Pharoah.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 01:29 AM

Now you're going to 'debate' THAT??????

Lots of spare time on your hands, huh?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Fossil
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 02:21 AM

It is a salutary lesson foe a WASP male to come to live in a country (in my case, New Zealand) where being white Anglo-Saxon and Protestant (or presbyterian), seems to be a distinct disadvantage.

And old (ish) as well.

And male.

And hetero.

Oh, sod it, get on with the semi-disguised racial abuse. I am so not glad to see that the revival of this thread has dragged out some of the old Mudcat trolls from underneath their bridges. Hi, GfS, Hi, Akenaton and the rest, merry Christmas, may the New Year bring you some enlightenment.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 04:21 AM

"Racists" do not always wear hoods, or carry burning crosses.

I tend to look at the motivation of those with a blame obsession.

Ebbie, I am glad to see you back, hope you are well on the way to recovery. I enjoy our little occasional "spats"....take care of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 04:26 AM

Greg you really should remember that abusive rhetoric can damage self as well as others.

Thanks GfS.....for taking the time to respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 10:20 AM

Hey Pharoah! Blow me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 01:15 PM

"AND NOT A SINGLE LIBERAL HERE WILL TAKE HIM TO TASK FOR IT."

I know - let's whack his pee-pee with a hairbrush!! Greg - consider your virtual pee-pee whacked. Let that be a lesson to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 05:54 PM

No problem Ake...you're welcome!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 06:20 PM

Thank you, Wes - whack accepted, lesson taken.

Now can you srrange some professional help and intervention for Bearded Psychotic before he hurts himself or others?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 03:09 AM

BS: Is this Racism?......having a beard isn't a race, is it?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 03:33 PM

Hey, is dividing the human race into so-called 'bigots' versus 'non-bigots'....so we can 'hate' and despise' one more than another...is that bigotry?..or racism?..you know, like hating the human race, so you find new lines of demarcation?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 04:26 PM

Racism can be unconscious. Attention must be paid to it so that it can be shown for what it is. Well-meaning anglo folks can be racist without being aware that they are.
They show cultural conditioning in their racism. Sexism is another similar problem.

I don't think there are many black people on Mudcat and that's really a shame. Folk music shouldn't be a "white" thing only.

Biden obviously meant well but betrayed his unwitting conditioning in his remark.
I think it's fine for him to have been made aware of it without calling him names such as "bigot" or "racist".

The problem is that African-American or Black people have suffered inordinately at the hands of caucasians and so I think they deserve a special sensitivity in treatment.

Racism is about power and the persecution of those of a different color.. Those persecuted don't have the power that is in the hands of the persecutor.

Black people have not persecuted white people historically.

In my experience from the Fifties I was always welcomed into Black people's homes and made to feel comfortable. The reverse was never done in Caucasian homes in those days.

Who has the power is the racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Dec 12 - 11:43 PM

Stringsinger: "I don't think there are many black people on Mudcat and that's really a shame. Folk music shouldn't be a "white" thing only."

Maybe you're so fucking 'white' that you're snow-blinded to how 'white' you are!..Maybe you ain't got 'no soul, Man'.....you write like it...maybe certain blacks segregate themselves from something they are NOT interested in...
...ever think of that?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 04:29 AM

I would certainly agree with that point here in the UK Sanity, where "multiculturalism" has meant ghettoised racial groups who have no intention of any form of social integration.

This of course is not just the fault of the minority groups, but a relexion on the worthlessness of modern western culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Dec 12 - 07:13 PM

Folk music isn't a white thing only. A good deal of it is based on blues and jazz oriented music that emanated from black musicians. The fact that the membership here on Mudcat is mostly white is simply because the English-speaking folk audience back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's was mostly composed of white, middle class, young people in North America and the UK. That same group of people are still here now, a lot older...and they're still talking about folk music...and that's all there is to it. Race has nothing to do with it. The only thing that has anything to do with it is who was listening to that particular music back there when we were young.

And that's........100!

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 12:02 AM

Right....and if this were a Motown forum, a lot of white folks would not be as interested in it, as folk music...even though a lot of the blues has it's roots in black gospel, and is well liked and appreciated by whites, it isn't quite that way with the blacks.....ESPECIALLY when lame, lifeless campfire music is supposed to fire them up as much as hot gospel..or blues...or soul.
Just the way it is...but I have found that many blacks are as fascinated by a beautiful melody, much the same as whites get-off on black rhythm!....but then try applying it to folk.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:25 PM

The people in every place in the world have their own folk music. And only a very small proportion of those people are 'white'.

Folk music is far wider and more varied than a lot of. People seem to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Dec 12 - 09:50 PM

The current crop of Democrats are ***far less*** inclined to either think of, or state, racist thoughts... They have moved on and in calling the Republicans on their inherent racism is not racism... It's observation...

Get over it, Republicans... On both levels...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 12:59 AM

Oh, bull-pucky, Bobert!..You and your race bit...don't you think it's getting a little old??..by now??..at all???
There ARE some people who aren't having to launder the guilt of being a Southern Democrat, who were the most racist of them all....That's YOUR heritage..No mine..or a lot of other people's!
It's a broken, worn out record, that worked back in the '60's...catch up!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:51 PM

Unfortunately a recent poll, in October, appeared to show that "51 percent of Americans hold explicitly anti-black views. That figure is up from 48 percent in 200". (that's from here )

So some way to go, with a u-turn in the direction in which you are collectively headed?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:40 PM

Why yes, GfinS... And so were the abolitionists back in the 1850s...

Do you ever get tired of defending rednecks???

Guess not...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 07:12 PM

Did Biden not mean that he was "clean" as being of good moral character and having no "skeletons in the closet"? I am just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:36 PM

Rednecks????...well I'm not a 'Redneck...but as long as we're on the subject..you got something against 'reds'..like some people have against 'blacks'???

Be careful next time so that shit doesn't slip out!

..and BTW, the south has a lot more to launder than we did, I grew up in Southern California..nobody gave a shit, as long as 'they' (ANYBODY) didn't fuck with you.....but that's where I grew up....and if you press it, I've got some rather 'embarrassing' history..that would make your claims quite ridiculous.
yeah, maybe in certain parts of the country it was worse than others, but where I grew up, there wasn't this 'reparation/guilt' trip....in fact, my first REAL band, I played guitar, for a 5 piece 'soul' group...and we elected 'Jimmy'(the black piano/back-up singer, to be the leader.....way before Obama was born!
...so lighten up, OK?.....and as so far as James Baldwin, of whom we were good friends, he was a writer, and original founder of the Black Panthers....AND SPENT SOME TIME BEING A HOMOSEXUAL!!!!...look him up..he has bios online.....that is going to shock some of the accusers of me being either racist, OR homophobic, right out the window!! ...but I'll just let the whiny idiots prattle on!
(James Baldwin, BTW, is the guy who gave me the quote that I posted on here several times, and I posted him credit for that, long ago..."Right wing and left wing are on the same bird!"..J.B.)

Now go imagine new crap.....BUT, until next time...................

Regards!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 06:01 PM

Don, why did you reply to this post on the 'gay marriage' thread?...I was speaking of racism, and the fact that James Baldwin was at one time a homosexual, was just a side note to those who like to throw out the accusations of 'bigot' and 'racists'. ..(Like killing two birds with one stone)..but knowing your past history, you did it to cloud the issue, and disconnect the continuity, just to slip in some of your propagandized nonsense...(often called 'bad science')
Let's try to avoid that shit, OK?


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:19 PM

".and BTW, the south has a lot more to launder than we did, I grew up in Southern California..nobody gave a shit, as long as 'they' (ANYBODY) didn't fuck with you.....but that's where I grew up....and if you press it, I've got some rather 'embarrassing' history..that would make your claims quite ridiculous."

I grew up in Southern California too and in my experience the LAPD and hate groups would mess with you just as much as they did in the South, mainly because L.A. had many transplanted Southerners there. Also, the Latino community caught institutionalized hell by the former mayors and cops.

The reaction to this prejudice took its form in the creation of "Rifas" or Latino gangs who saw no reason not to stick it to the Anglos. L.A. had its own West Side Story.

Then there was the Watts riots. Don't tell me that nobody didn't mess with the black community. I had friends in Watts and it was the same as in New York, stop and frisk and intimidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Racism?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 11:04 PM

Yeah, 'Strings', L.A. had its periodic problems with the black communities when they erupted...but that is a far cry as to what went on in the South......There was no active KKK, lynchings, 'back of the bus' crap and all the rest. The South was legendary..even openly electing over the top prejudiced officials...Byrd, Wallace, etc etc,

Hey, where in L.A. were you? and when?....maybe we've met inadvertently, maybe even played a same gig....

GfS