'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 08:41 AM

enjoy and if you give pleasure to others enjoy it even more

And enjoy the fiddle playing too :D

(well, it is Valentine's day)

... I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:06 PM

I would think that keeping the bow at a right angle to the strings would be important for a clean sound, whether classical or folk. I certainly find it helps-- (admittedly I'm neither a violinist nor a fiddler)--(play viola--mostly country or bluegrass viola these days.)

And I think the question of a shoulderpad has more to do with the person's collarbone than anything else. I need one--so I use a folded up cloth. It seems not everybody needs one.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:36 PM

"When you speak of the importance of keeping the bow at a right angle to the string, do you mean a (fairly) precise right angle or is some leeway passable?"

Firstly, my dad was the player - I did watch him very closely, and he gave me a few casual 'lessons' - but I have read heaps on violin technique, as well as studied Physics a bit....

So I dunno for sure just how much 'leeway' you can get away with - but if you start thinking about trying to keep it fairly 'square', you are probably getting closer to 'classical technique'. Try watching some 'real good' classical players.... :~)


Phil ----

I suppose I'll have to kill you now....
:-)

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: fiddler
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:26 PM

ee by gum this as I thought, goes on and on it is all said above and ozchick has sussed it I think.

If it sounds good it is fine, if you have classical or traditional or self taught background what the h*ll.

On the subject of crakin players Peter Knight - most players inspire you - peter makes you want to go home and break the thing up. He's classically trained but look at his standing - internationaly at that. There are many.

Do waht suits but it is an ungainly instrument and you cna damage your bones and muscles, I've done it and been repaired but it took months and months of physio, all 'cos I threw the shoulder rest away! BUt that works for some - not me - lots of pain and no gain.

OZchick - enjoy and if you give pleasure to others enjoy it even more!

Andy

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:56 AM

Foolestroupe: When you speak of the importance of keeping the bow at a right angle to the string, do you mean a (fairly) precise right angle or is some leeway passable? If not, can you explain? (I'm not challenging you; just want to learn!).

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:26 AM

I vote for the fiddle.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Phil Manchester
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:09 AM

Foolestroupes 'secret' is fascinating - and bloody obvious if you think about it. I just never thought about it that way before - despite having studied Benade's terrific books on the subject. I shall certainly take this into account in future - even if this means deliberately searching for the effect :)
Thanks for that one.
On wandering bows - I try to move the bow a little as possible in ANY direction - keep it at 90 degrees and move it just enough to get the best note - I guess this qualifies as an 'interesting' idea.
Oh - and on carpal tunnel syndrome - I got that in my right arm from using a thumb strap on a one row melodeon. The bonus was I gave up the box to concentrate on fiddling. Never had any left wrist problems despite resting fiddle on my arm for about 25 years - guess it's to do with the way you're built. But then I don't attempt complicated stuff - I just try and play the simple stuff as well as I can.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:10 PM

One little secret is that there are 'channels' to produce certain tones - this means that for each note (pitch) on a string, you can produce a tone colour by the precise location where the bow contacts the strings. The ranges between the dead centre of the vibrating length of the string to right up next to where the string touches the bridge.

The reason for this is that certain harmonics are suppressed where the bow touches the string - it obviously can't vibrate at that harmonic then!

The classical 'best tone' position is funnily enough, 1/13th - to suppress that particular 'troublesome' overtone - the caesura - but 'folk musos' often have their own 'interesting' ideas on the matter.... :-)

And 'musos (folk/trad/classical) that I classify as "bad"' just allow the bow to waver and wander all over the place (as well as NOT keep the bow at right angles to the strings!) ... as I said - they have some 'interesting' ideas... :-)

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,Alastair
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:08 PM

What were you doing in the bloody church anyway?

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Stewart
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:58 PM

James Kelly is certainly one of the best Irish fiddle players around. He grew up in a family of traditional musicians in Co. Clare, and absorbed this music from an early age. He also learned to play by ear from his father, a well respected Irish fiddler, and other visiting musicians.

In his workshops James emphasizes proper technique, both to enhance the playing and also to avoid bodily injury. Not holding the fiddle under the chin requires most of the weight to be placed on the left hand and bending the wrist back so that the heel of the hand supports the neck. This leads to carpal tunnel syndrome and other wrist problems, and creates unwanted tension in the hand. The fiddle seems to be an instrument of the devil designed to destroy the human body if not handled properly. Certainly a chin rest is necessary. Whether or not to use a shoulder rest is a matter of personal choice. As one becomes more comfortable with the instrument many players find they don't need it, but that is also a matter of personal anatomy.

Here is an excerpt about James' teaching techniques: "According to James, the key to good fiddle playing is learning the basics: bowing, ornamentation, and phrasing. Learning a particular tune involves several tasks: learning the notes, figuring out bow strokes, holding the fiddle at the proper angle, properly holding the bow and the fiddle neck, positioning the fingers correctly, and remembering to bow from the elbow and not the shoulder-all the while striving for a clear tone. James uses repetition and example to teach Linda Gesele and Pam Carsey. Just as he'll play a phrase over and over to learn it, he makes Pam and Linda repeat a portion of a tune until he's satisfied. "Again!" is a word the two women have heard all too often, for James is a demanding teacher. James is far more concerned that his students improve their technique and play a few tunes well and not that they have a vast repertoire."

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:55 PM

frank hamilton,you might find that holding the bow under the frog,but still with a bent thumb[as some american players do]overcomes the problem of gripping the bow. that you mentioned in a previous post,the bent thumb is the most important thing in getting good wrist movement.
good wrist movement is important ,whether you want to be a fiddler or violinist[as far as im concerned there is no difference],your still playing a wooden instrument with four strings with a bow.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,ozchick
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:53 PM

LoL!!! overwhelmed by earnestness!!! that's so true..... thanks Phil!

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: HiHo_Silver
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:59 PM

Probably one of the most appealing sounding fiddlers in my area was a fellow who held the fiddle on his arm and acquired a technique of rolling the fiddle to produce the notes and not using very much rocking of the bow. I have never seen anyone else ever accompolish this.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:16 PM

Apparently there is a school of thought about how to hold the fiddle/violin without a chinrest or shoulder pad. A balancing act is needed and I guess this comes from an Early Music Consort approach. There are those barrel-chested types that can support the fiddle and elicit sweet tones or cultivated scratchy ones without any contact with the head.

Being a perpetual novice, I need all the help I can get. (Chin rest and shoulder pad)

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Phil Manchester
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:48 AM

"Everything I learned from other people merely stood in my way. Thus I can say no one taught me anything. On the other hand it is true that I know so little! But I prefer that little which is of my own creation. And who knows whether that little, when put to use by others, will not become something big?"

Paul Gaugin, April 1903

Not 'outclassed' Ozchick, only overwhelmed by earnestness!

Enjoy the journey and, who knows?

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,ozchick
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:10 AM

*mastery* now there's a word.

I guess it depends on how far you want to take things. I'm just a girl who likes to play my guitar and fiddle - not out to win any prizes or anything. I understand that there are some pretty serious musicians in this place, so it seems reasonable that they would have certain standards they need to achieve.

I'm WAY outclassed here........

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:45 AM

It doesn't really matter what your 'technique' is, as long as you have 'mastery' of it...

As Mr Fosbury and many others have amply demonstrated...

The only drawback with certain 'technique styles' in playing a musical instrument, is that it may seriously restrict the styles of music you can easily play: a good example is the ubiquitous Piano Accordion "Oom-Pah-Pah" technique.... :-)

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,ozchick
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:40 AM

How funny that this 'discussion' is continuing - I had no idea everyone would have such strong opinions. I found a quote (on my desk calendar) today which I thought was quite fitting.

"I was told over and over again that I would never be successful, that I was not going to be competitive, and my technique was simply not going to work. All I could do was shrug and say 'We'll just have to see'."

Dick Fosbury won an Olympic gold medal at the 1968 Mexico City Games with his 'new style' of high jump - now commonly known as the Fosbury Flop.

I guess I'll just do the best I can with the skills I have...

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:12 AM

Earlier period violin bowing techniques involved the arm and holding it resting on the knees, bowing like a small cello. As 'virtuosos' got better it became necessary to hold it under the chin.

No reason why one can't use other positions, provided that the speed of teh tune is slow enough for the technique.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Wordsmith
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:21 AM

I can recall Ashley MacIsaac blowing into the Juno awards like a breath of fresh Canadian air on more than one occasion...not particularly gentlemanly, either. Thank you, "meself," for hinting at the rules that apparently govern the fiddlers of Cape Breton. My enjoyment of Natalie MacMaster's styling, while at a concert out-of-range of such restrictions, is made all the sweeter now knowing it was somewhat illicit.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 08:42 PM

I don't buy the health benefits of chin position. I've seen one fiddler permanently disabled fom it with neck and shoulder spasms, and fiddlers who use the old-style low position always look far more relaxed.

If you don't need the higher positions - and almost all folk and early music doesn't - why change your whole technique to allow for them?

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 06:13 PM

"The European oriented "classical" players tend not to be able to approximate the lilt of a good Irish fiddler no matter how much technique they have at their disposal."

One can also say that the 'traditional style' players can't keep correct time when they play Classical Music too. One can also say that they are hopeless at playing 'ensemble' as they are all 'soloists'.

"lilt of a good Irish fiddler"

Depends how thier 'training and experience' was...

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 04:37 PM

Why is that significant (as much as it is actually the case)?

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 04:08 PM

it's significant that in Cape Breton, they refer to the instrument as the violin, not the fiddle.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 02:43 PM

My take on things is the single biggest factor is attitude. As a general rule, violinists want to play what's on the sheet as clearly and accurately as possible, while fiddlers want to play around with it. In the past it might have been argued that most violinists had better technique, but i doubt this is true anymore and some things traditional fiddlers do would be hard for a classically trained violinist to do, so technique has to be judged on what it's for. Stylistically, I think the difference has more to do with the bow arm than anything else. Fiddlers don't lift the bow off the strings as much, often press down less on the bow, often slur more. These are all gross generalizations of course, and there are all sorts of grey areas, like jazz, which tends to have more classical-style technique, but little interest in reading anything off a page, cross-over players, etc...

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 01:25 PM

I think that there is a stylistic difference based on geography. The "classical" approach to violin is suited to the European repitiore under which most so-called "classical" pieces fall.
The African-american approach of a Stuff Smith or blues players would almost have to ignore the "classical" style to enable their playing. Regina Carter attempts to bridge both worlds like Wynton Marsalis and is somewhat successful but it's like comparing Wynton or Rafael Mendez to Louis Armstrong.

There are very few formalized violinists that can approach the fiddling expertise of Jean Carignan, McMasters or Mairead Nesbitt or the Mairead of Altan let alone James Morrison, Micheal Coleman and Schnuckenack Reinhardt. It's a different world as exemplified by the difference of the playing of a traditional blues guitarist and a "classical" one in the Bream or Segovia methods. There is a fundamental difference in the two styles, "classical" and "fiddling". The European oriented "classical" players tend not to be able to approximate the lilt of a good Irish fiddler no matter how much technique they have at their disposal.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 05:08 AM

Violin is merely a derogatory name for a fiddle.

A few years ago ther was a TV fim called ' The Magic Fiddle ' it showed Yehudi playing a hornpipe with the great Irish fiddler Frankie Gavin, Frankie of course sounded wonderful but Yehudi sounded stiff and formal.

He also said he was in awe of traditional fiddlers who could remember everything and played well even when they had a few too many beers.

eric

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: RTim
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 09:15 AM

I thought a Violin had "Strings" but a Fiddle has "Strangs"!

And did you know that the Violin is not smaller than a Viola - it is just that the Violinist head is bigger!

Tim

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 08:10 AM

Ed Caines[posh band],Cathy Cook[Ex nellie the Elephant,and New esperance morris]Tom Mconville are all examples of musicians who are good to dance to,yet all have a correct technique.
there is no reason why something should not be good dance music and good to listen to,the three above musicians are good examples of this.
here are some more,[dubliners fiddler Sean Keane, Matt Crannitch, Paul Mcnevin,Seamus Creagh,all have a correct technique,all are good dance musicians,I believe Keane and Crannitch had classical training as well.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Phil Manchester
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 09:11 AM

Anglo/English
When I wrote the last post I was also thinking about the difficulty piano accordion players have getting the bounce into dance tunes that a melodeon player seems get easily. Again it is surely to do with the 'limitations' of the push/pull instrument. Particularly in cajun playing there is a characteristic lurch which comes from cross keying (playing a G melodeon in D for example) which naturally imbues cajun two steps with an off beat emphasis. By contrast it is difficult to get a melodeon to sound fluid without a lot of practice.
So maybe the same argument about the difference between fiddle and violin can be applied 'push/pull' versus 'same note' free reed instruments. In both cases the limitations of the instrument and playing method are converted into virtues which suit the purpose. Just a thought ;)

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:59 AM

"Natalie MacMaster, who not only fiddles up a storm, but also dances while she does it" -

There are a number of the prominent Cape Breton fiddlers who are capable of this feat - notably, Ashley MacIsaac himself - but choose not to, as a rule ("A gentleman is someone who can ... but doesn't"). It is a practice regarded with some skepticism in Cape Breton, for various reason that I won't get into, but I think you would find that even Natalie seldom does the fiddling & dancing bit when she's "downhome". (Tremendous fiddler and tremendous show, though!).

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,The balck belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:50 AM

In his autobiography Yehudi admited that he had a huge problem with playing without "the dots". He could not invent "on the fly" and had to know what he was going to play note for note.

I have often seen the same thing as the fiddle/violin difference between English concertina and Anglo concertina players, though it has reduced a lot in recent years. When I used to go to the West Country Concertina meetings we would often finish off with some tunes played en masse. A large proportion of the English players would reach for the music for even the most well known and basic tunes.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Phil Manchester
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:42 AM

Re Captain Birdseye and correctness

Can't argue with the logic that 'good' technique makes for 'better' playing but judgements about what is correct or incorrect -viz
[ supporting the instrument with your arm][[ incorrect bow hold]] - surely depend on what you are trying to do. If you are playing for dancing and calling the steps - its hard to call with a lump of wood under your chin. It's also hard to get the percussive bite you need if you are using long bow strokes - so yes I hold the bow a little up from the end and generally play short strokes - one stroke per quaver. Most Morris traditions (Fieldtown excepted) demand a percussive approach and if you are fighting off massed melodions, subtlety is not realy what is required.
RE physical problems - When I first started I did hold the fiddle under my chin - but screwed my neck up so badly I still suffer from loose upper vertebra and by holding my left arm in the so-called 'correct' classical position, I messed up my elbow too.
The point is that 'fiddling' is different from 'violining' and there is no right nor wrong, no correct nor incorrect. I would also argue that the 'traditional' repertoire largely evolved from the limitations CB refers to. I prefer the simple unadorned style of Jinky Wells or Walter Bulwer because I think they are easier to dance to. I also think this makes the so-called limitations a virtue. As I said before, this style is not meant for listening - its for dancing. Like good Cajun fiddle (Canray Fontenot, Adam Landreneau) or East Anglian players like Harkie Nesling, you would not want sit and listen to it - but its sure good to dance to.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Wordsmith
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 01:40 AM

As long as you enjoy it, that's all that counts. I once saw Itzhak Perlman playing "The Orange Blossom Special" on his lovely violin - had to be a Strad. I've been a fan of both violinists and fiddlers for much of my life. I know there's a difference, but it makes no difference to me. Beautiful music is beautiful music...regardless of what it's played on. (Good lord, I sound like Forrest Gump.)

I've heard Yehudi play with Ravi Shankar...I can see why he'd have trouble playing with Stephane who had a style and rhythm all his own. Jascha Heifetz. Eugene Fodor. Fritz Kreissler. Mark O'Connor. Ashley MacIsaac. Allyson Krause. But the one who thrills me the most is Natalie MacMaster, who not only fiddles up a storm, but also dances while she does it, and I'm not talking stationary - across the stage and back again.

I say, play the way you want to play, as long as you feel the music, people will, too. ;D

Actually I love them all.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,ozchick
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 01:12 AM

I've been looking up classical technique v fiddle technique on the net over the last few days and have found quite a few very interesting and informative sites. The thing that I have found most interesting is that when I'm comparing 'my' technique with the ones described on these sites, it really seems that my positioning and hold of the violin and the bow are leaning towards classical rather than fiddle. Straight left wrist, violin held at 45 degree angle to body, my bow hold is slightly high, but not compared to some others i've seen on youtube etc..... and I would be devastated if someone spilt a beer on my violin, so there you go!!

My teacher at the moment is a jazz violinist (classically trained) and also plays traditional celtic music - and he never seems to have too much to say about my technique. When I've asked him he says it looks fine to him, and so long as it feels comfortable it's ok.

I think the inital comment that upset me was made by somebody who was just trying to 'have a go' at me for the sake of it. As I mentioned, she has never been supportive of my decision to take up playing the violin, and especially when i told her that i was concentrating on traditional music. I think it's the classic snob factor (sorry!!) that goes with classical training of any sort - remember I'm classically trained in guitar myself ;) (and classical ballet as a child, but lets not go there...!!)

There are tunes I can play that she would have no hope of keeping up with, as I know there are things she can do that I have no hope of doing as well. That's what 'Style' is all about, right?

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 07:14 PM

G'day Frank Hamilton,

The other day you wrote: "I have read that "fiddle" is an older word. Something like "fidel" or faithful."

In fact, the ultimate source for both words is the Latin vitulari: "to celebrate a festival, be joyful". The faithful rendition in Latin comes to the Old English fithele through the Germanic language. The same word, more corrupted by post-Roman italicisation, come down throught the 'Romance' langauges to viel(l)e in Old French and on to viol... and its diminutive violin.

Like most of the "old" words that come from Latin to English directly - through Old Germanic - "fiddle" is now treated as inferior to the more corrupted form "violin", passed down via the "upper class" Romance languages. (Also keep in mind that the "v" in Latin was more like our English "w"!)

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Stewart
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 07:00 PM

Standing is probably better for good posture. But most session players play sitting down. If hunched in over the fiddle you put a lot of weight on the left hand and wrist which is not good and leads to wrist problems.

In my opinion, the right hand is the most important in playing the violin/fiddle. That's where the sound is made, between the bow and strings, and where rhythm is made. The left hand fingering is more mechanical. A tight grip on the bow leads to tenseness and bad tone and rhythm, and can also lead to physical problems. Of course with too light a grip you can lose the bow. A classical player grips the bow differently from a fiddler. Again, different techniques for different types of playing. Many fiddle players when playing fast use only the top few inches of the bow (more economical for fast notes), thus they tend to grip the bow up from the frog.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 06:09 PM

I think fiddlers are better off standing while playing. What do you think? There is more freedom, mobility and phrasing through breathing.

One trouble I have as a beg/int player is that I keep dropping my bow. My bow hold uses the pressure between the first joint of the middle finger and the bent thumb like I was told to do. I still can't hang on to it.

Frank

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:33 PM

To clarify what Capt. Birdseye said, "the important point here is not who is right or wrong," but who is good or bad. Or who is correct or incorrect. Apparently.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Stewart
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:18 PM

To add to what Capt. Birdseye said, poor technique (not holding the violin/fiddle correctly, poor posture, etc.) can lead to physical injury and not being able to play at all. For example many old-time fiddlers develop carpal tunnel syndrome in their left had from bending their wrist back to hold the fiddle with their arm rather than with their chin. So learning good technique is important. James Kelly, one of the best Irish fiddlers, makes this a strong point in his workshops.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 11:12 AM

Here in the south we have a saying, "If you can spill beer on it, and no one gets mad, then it's a fiddle."

Are you sure? It looks like a banjo to me :D

I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 10:43 AM

Here in the south we have a saying, "If you can spill beer on it, and no one gets mad, then it's a fiddle."

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 11:39 AM

the important point here is not who is right or wrong,.
If when you start playing you learn good technique,you are not limiting yourself, if later in life, you wish to change direction and play classical music, or jazz or scott skinner compositions[which requires going into different positions].
I know several musicians for example,Ed Caines ,Cathy Cook, Tom mconville who started playing classical music,but who make a good job of playing traditional music, but still have good technique,both of these musicians have played successfully for traditional dance.
and could if they so wished play classical music successfully.
however if you learn bad technique[ supporting the instrument with your arm][[ incorrect bow hold]]you may be able to play much of the traditional repertoire successfully,but be even limited within this sphere[tunes like The Dawn,Scott Skinner compositions,sean sa cheo etc,
Being able to change position has advantages in traditional music as well, for instance it is easier to play a G roll or an A roll [on the d string,using the stronger fingers,index and middle,than using the third or fourth fingers,this is done by changing position.in fact it is impossible to play an a roll abaga,on the open A string,You have to do a treble or a trill or a cut or a double cut or a fake roll,the musician who has good technique has more options.
    on any instrument good technique is important,but technique is only one factor, playing in a musical way, use of dynamics ,being able to express feeling,particuarly on airs[good technique is important here]are equally important.
classical musicians can learn to play traditional music successfully if they listen to the music for long enough,and absorb the styles .
but musicians who hold the violin /fiddle incorrectly will find their musical horizons limited and there will be even a few limitations within the traditional repertoire.

I disagree with some of your esteemed colleagues comments in his article,good technique on any instrument is important although technique in itself is useless unless the musician is musical,at the same time, good music can be made with limited technique,but the musician will always be limited with what he can acheieve,which becomes frustrating for the musician concerned.

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Phil Manchester
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 10:30 AM

I like the idea that the violin sings and the fiddle dances. I have only played fiddle for dancing - morris and English country (30 odd years). I hold it on my chest, never get past first position, never use vibrato and seldom deviate from G, D and A - occasionally F to please accordion players. Its not the sort of thing you would want to 'listen' to - but its OK to tap your feet, caper and polka to! But I also love to hear beautiful violin - whether its Stephane or Yehudi. They both make it sing in their own way

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: fiddler
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 09:10 AM

ozchick,

Well Must try out that city on my next vist.

We are lookign at Woodford festival next year or if not the year after!

keep fiddling and enjoy.

andy

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 04:51 AM

Oh my, there are worlds between playing the violin and fiddling.
A violin sounds as bad as an opera singer with folk songs. Give me a folk singer with a fiddle there, but keep him out of a sinfonic orchestra or any opera.
Every one at his right place ...

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,ozchick
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 02:07 AM

Scrump - don't you mean 'to fiddle: what the Prime Minister does while Australia burns?' LOL I think they're all as bad as each other.

Thanks everyone for your comments - I feel a bit more confident now after being 'crushed' last sunday....

The thing that I have really loved about my new found appreciation of folk music is that it has completely changed the way i think about music. I am much more inclined to play by ear (I used to be ruled by those little black dots!) and I now ENJOY what I'm playing!!!!

Andy, I live in Victoria. Melbourne's much better than Sydney ;)

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:21 PM

johnadams: thanks for that article by Paul Roberts - it's excellent. You all should read it. But I'll sum it up in one sentence: play however you like; there's precedent for it somewhere back there ...

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: Scrump
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 05:52 PM

To fiddle: what the government does with their figures, to make us all believe we are better off than we really are.

or

To fiddle: what the Prime Minister does while the UK burns :-)

A violin: a musical instrument.

So there is a difference after all :-)

Subject: RE: 'Fiddle' vs 'Violin'????
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 05:51 PM

To quote something my online friend Anne from Philly uses...
"Violins sing, fiddles dance!"