High Action on guitar

Subject: High Action on guitars
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:36 PM

It always strikes me as strange the way so many run-of the-mill guitars get made with such high actions.

Often enough you find quite decently made instruments, but with actions that make them virtually unplayable. I make a habit of having a look at any guitar I come across in charity shops and boot fairs and such, and that's almost invariably the case. (There are exceptions, and I've got a couple of good instruments that way.)

Why I say "strange" is because, while it's easy enough to raise an action that's too low, to lower one is much more of a problem.

When it's just that the nut is too high, that's easy enough - even before you've got round to cutting it lower, you can just stick a capo on the first fret. If the bridge is too high that's more of a problem, but not too difficult. Though I'd be interested if anyone has any suggestions for how far you can lower a bridge.

But more often than not it's not that the bridge is too high, but that the neck angle is wrong, and that's major surgery.

But it seems a pity to give up on otherwise decent enough guitars. Any suggestions anybody?

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: GUEST,mandotim
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:05 PM

Hi!
Regarding neck angle;it's major surgery for dovetail neck joints (well fiddly anyway) but with a bolt on neck it's dead easy. Just shape a shim to fit, or remove some wood, and away you go.

Regarding bridge height; it's pretty much trial and error, but too low and you lose 'break angle', which reduces pressure on the top, and volume tends to suffer. Reminds me of what Earl Scruggs (allegedly) said when someone asked how tight the banjo head should be for bluegrass; 'Tighten it 'till it breaks, then back it off some!'
Tim

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:22 PM

If the neck angle is wrong, maybe it's only a truss-rod adjustment that's needed. The easiest way to check is by holding a string down at the first fret and at the last fret, and seeing what sort of gap is in the middle. Any more than a millimetre, and it needs the truss-rod carefully adjusting. The neck has to have a very slight bow, or the weight of your arm fretting a string can cause the neck to flex backwards... on some guitars, not necessarily all.


The main problem with a 'pin bridge' is that the insert (be it plastic, bone or metal, or a combination) cannot go any lower than a coupl of millimetres above the wood of the bridge itself, or the strings will not seat properly, causing a buzz.

In the past I've resorted to the serious measure of carefully planing wood off the top of the bridge... I did that to both my Yamaha FG160 and FG260 (six and twelve strings respectively) when I first bought them in 1970, and they've been a joy to play ever since.

I recently bought an FG200 of the same age, and the action is dreadful in comparison... but I still haven't plucked up the courage to do what I did thirty-odd years ago!!

On a slightly different tack, I bought a cheap Yamaha F340 a couple of years ago to take to singarounds. If someone wanted to borrow it, I could let them without fear of my favourite guitar getting damaged...

Anyway, I decided to put an under-bridge transducer in it. Did I cut plastic off the bridge insert? I considered it, but decided to take a more drastic approach... I used a narrow wood chisel to gouge wood out of the bottom of the bridge slot, because I'd calculated that going down to the belly of the instrument was the perfect height of transducer and bridge added together.

Not only was the job right first time - all the strings sounded evenly through the amp, but acoustically the instrument jumped up a few decibels and sounded much cleaner!

I can only surmise that there must have been a slight air gap under the bridge...

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:44 PM

One of those guitars I mentioned which I picked up in a charity shop did have a bolt on neck, and that was easy enough to sort. (Actually what I did was put a wedge under an extension of the neck that stretched over the guitar body.)   But that's the only one I've ever seen.

That surgery Bernard did there sounds interesting. I'm trying to envisage quite what it involved - like, how far down did you go?

Of course the other thing to do, which I've sometimes considered would be the lateral thinking solution. Instead of lowering the action, raise it, and turn the guitar involved into a kind of Dobro. I've seen kits for doing that (though it'd be easy enough without one I imagine). Anyone tried that, and how does it work out?

And thanks again mandotim for pointing me in the direction of the guitar Bridge Doctor - it's still working splendidly.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Bee
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:53 PM

I must say I'm grateful for Epiphone's out-of-the-box ease of playing. When I got my guitar it was set up perfectly, nice low action, neck angled well, otherwise I likely would still not have done much with it, as I wouldn't have had a clue what was wrong with it. Several musicians commented on it being easy to play (after looking suspiciously down the neck and under the strings).

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:55 PM

Ummm... do you mean the recent one, or the 1970s job?!

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:56 PM

Oops! Cross posting - my response was to McG!

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Mooh
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 02:02 PM

Factory set-ups can range from horrible to glorious. Lots of guitars are shipped with action that will never buzz while hanging in the shop but depend on an informed shop (or customer) to do the final set-up. Still others seem to be barely assembled and have the strings practically flat against the fingerboard. Imported axes won't often arrive with great action simply due to the changes in atmosphere between source and shop. I hate it when shops appear to not understand all this, but in the end it's good for my business as part of what I do for a living is instrument set-ups. A capo at fret one will fix the action while testing an instrument in the shop unless the saddle/bridge is too high also. Inform the shop they'd sell more product if the instruments were properly set-up...and hope they care.

As always, www.frets.com is a great resource.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Bee
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 02:05 PM

Freeman Keillor on the Harmony Central acoustic forum has a good sticky on figuring out what's wrong with your guitar. Also, a nice forum, though i haven't joined it, I lurk there.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:07 PM

The latterday one was the one I meant, Bernard: "...I used a narrow wood chisel to gouge wood out of the bottom of the bridge slot, because I'd calculated that going down to the belly of the instrument was the perfect height of transducer and bridge added together."
...........................
"...the strings practically flat against the fingerboard."

Well, that might be nuisance, but it's easily enough fixed. The over high action is liable to be a different matter. It's rather the way it's easy adding sugar to a drink or salt to a dish, but not to remove it.
.....................
Thanks Bee - Freeman Keller, Harmony Central - Is my Guitar Sick

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Mooh
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:53 PM

McGrath...Obviously, at least to you and me, but not to many customers, and can't be fixed by any customer in a store that minds folks servicing their stock.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 02:33 AM

McG - it was fairly simple, really - not as easy to describe!

I took out the bridge insert, measured the depth of that plus the thickness of the transducer that was to go under it, and realised that all I had to do was take out all of the 'bridge wood' from the bottom of the slot the bridge insert sat in, which meant the transducer would then sit 'on top' of the belly with the original insert back in place on top of it.

Not a job for the faint hearted, perhaps...!!

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 03:03 AM

Using a chisel to remove wood from the bottom of the saddle slot is high risk because the transducer needs to sit on a perfectly flat surface, on the one hand, and gouging the table could be a disaster on the other.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Grab
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:02 AM

All my cheaper instruments have required some fine-tuning. My first classical and first steel-string needed the nut slots and the saddle filing down some. My cheapy Strat needed the nut jacking up with a thin bit of shim cut from some plastic packaging. Even my expensive classical needed a little surgery on the nut slots.

As far as I can tell, it's down to either manufacturers who don't care or shops that don't care. Some manufacturers (eg. Lowden) have a factory setup which is very playable. Some don't bother and just ship it, relying on shops to do the setup. As far as I can tell, most shops never do the setup - they tend to employ kids who might know how to play (if you're lucky) but know sod all about maintenance.

Graham.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 08:42 AM

I can understand why they'd cut corners with cheap-end instruments, because the fine tuning is fiddly and takes time and that's money. But setting the neck at an angle that ensures anover high action seems such a daft mistake that doesn't actually save any money or time in the manufacturing process, and must lose sales.

The other thing that happens with old guitars which raises the action is the neck starts to bend - and in such cases a way of getting some use out of them is to capo up very high on the neck.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:24 AM

Maybe with cheap guitars it's easier for the makers to err on the side of high action rather than low action, because at least it's playable. If the action's too low, the strings would buzz and nobody would buy it?

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 12:11 PM

That's a good point Scrump - but the same result could be achieved by ensuring the bridge was on the high side.

One possibility that has occurred to me is that unfixable high actions help to ensure that, when people got interested enough to worry about that kind of thing, rather than put their effort into upgrading their starter guitar they will buy a better guitar. And the starter guitar ends up in the charity shop or boot sale.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 01:18 PM

There must be several different ways to address the problem,but it is best,I think,left to professionals,unless you are both Confidant AND Competent.Two years ago,at Towersey,I took a recently-acquired Martin MC 16 GTE to the "Oakwood" stand for a much-needed set-up, the action being rather high.When I got there,the very nice man (I'm ashamed to say I forgot his name !! ) was already cheerfully(and expertly) planing what looked liked great swathes of wood from the bridgepiece of another Martin.I couldn"t bear to look, so I left it with him & rushed off (for a drink !) I picked it up the following morning,and the difference was unbelievable !! Perfection ! Happiness !!The cost ?? 25 pounds !! So last year,I gave him my Avalon for several frets to be 'dressed' ,having attempted it (disasterously !! ) myself
Result?? No more top-end 'buzz', my 'bodge'repaired,& yet more perfection & happiness ( for the same price ! )I know where I'm going to go for guitar work in future !!

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 01:42 PM

The two most daunting repairs I've ever done, I think, were re-fretting a Paragon 'G' banjo for Malcolm Povah (banjo champion) and planing down the bridge of a Yamaha FG140 for Bernard Wrigley - with him watching, waiting to use it on a gig that evening (way back in the early 1970s).

Probably the most satisfying repair was an Epiphone belonging to a friend of mine, where the neck was parting company with the body. It took a lot of careful persuasion to get everything to line up properly, but when I'd finished he said it had never played so well, even when new...

That particular Epiphone was a strange one - it was built very much like an Eko Ranger...

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: growler
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 03:24 PM

Here in Kent We say 'get it Rodgered '

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 03:33 PM

Sometimes.

He has his fussier and more awkward customers.....

And you mean "Rodgersed"

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: GUEST,Carl Kaufmann
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:39 PM

As a guitar maker, let me suggest that you take a look at the Musical Instruments Makers Forum, mimf.com, where you will find all sorts of helpful info. on fixing guitar action --and most anything else dealing with maintenance or building stringed instruments. It's an open site, supported by donations.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:55 PM

And asking questions on the Mudcat is a great way of finding out about resources like that - thanks Carl. The Musical Instrument Makers Forum Fasciating site.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 01:01 AM

McGrath, I once lowered a bridge until it couldn't be lowered any more, and it was still too high. Two bridges later, it ended up as 3mm of sycamore and a fretwire, and even the fretwire was sanded a little. It has pegged string mounting, and I have never had downpressure problems, even though it is so low. Maybe the side pressure on the pegs transmits the vibrations.

I still use the guitar 35 years later, and it's still nice, except that I didn't get the fretwire 'bone' in exactly the right place, working by ear. I could do it better today, with a tuner.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Gulliver
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:57 AM

I've got a high action on my Lowden S5. There's a slight curve in the neck. I didn't mind it when playing 3 chords, but now I'm playing further up the neck and barreé chords and it can be tough on my aging fingers.

I'd like to have the action adjusted (there's a truss rod) but since it's the best sounding guitar I (or anyone I know) has ever played I'm nervous about having this done as I've seen the results of a couple of botched jobs.

What to do?

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:51 AM

Get Rodgersed, if you're in Kent. He's pretty good.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 12:12 PM

Truss rods aren't for lowering the action as such - but since you mention the curve in the neck, adjusting the truss rod might do the trick.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Grab
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:32 AM

Truss rod tweaks shouldn't be irreversable, Gulliver - unless the tweaker tightens it so much that the neck gives way, of course! If the action on the lower frets is OK, that'll almost certainly be a quick and cheap fix.

Graham.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:18 AM

Gulliver - is it an adjustable truss-rod? If so, I'm surprised, they're usually non-adjustable in a Lowden.

If it's not adjustable, you need to either:-

a) Take it to a reputable, Lowden-experienced luthier to have it sorted out (try contacting Seamus at Vintage Guitars in Norwich, he may be able to point you in the right direction), or

b) Contact the Georhe Lowden Guitar Co. and ask their advice.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:20 AM

Sorry, should have been 'George'! Dyslexic fingers!
And I meant to say that Lowdens are excellent instruments, and well worth spending a few quid to get it exactly how you want it.

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: deadfrett
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 09:10 AM

Go to links and click the Frank Ford Bluey. This guy really knows his stuff. He also is a contributor to the Fretboard Journal magazine. What a magazine. www.fretbordjournal.com

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 09:59 AM

http://www.fretboardjournal.com

Subject: RE: High Action on guitar
From: DADGBE
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 05:55 PM

Final set-up on a fretted instrument is one of the most difficult and time consuming parts of guitar making. It requires the service of an experienced instrument mechanic. The usual workers recruted by factories to run saws, sanders, sprayers, etc. are most often not competent to do good final setups. It's an economic question.