Vinyl to CD and copyrights

Subject: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST,Jean
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 03:12 PM

I have recently bought a deck and software so that I can put my vinyl record collection on my computer and then burn onto CDs so that I can listen to them in the car. Then a friend asked me for a copy of a particular LP. Another friend reminded me about copyrights (of which I have limited knowledge) and then proceeded to tell me horror stories of even 12 year olds being sued.
What exactly am I allowed to do now that I have this piece of equipment plus software and what am I definitely not allowed to do? I have looked up information on the internet but it's tedious and I still am not clear!

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: MMario
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 03:18 PM

As I understand the current interpretations ....

you *are* allowed to copy to CD so that you can play in car.

you are *NOT* allowed to make copies for others (unless they also own the lp and just don't have the equiptment to transfer...

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST,Jean
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 03:25 PM

Thanks, that is helpful - I didn't realise that I could make a copy for somebody who owned the LP but didn't have the equipment.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 03:28 PM

Are you resident in Britain? If so it is illegal at present to make copies of copyright recordings even for personal use. However this situation has just been reviewed by the Gowers Committee and Andrew Gowers' report recommends that the law be amended to allow copying where the person owns the material being copied and where it is purely for personal use.

Having said that, if you're copying vinyl purely for archiving/preserving/playing in the car purposes, I'd say go ahead without waiting for the law to be changed. The possibility of anyone doing anything about it is too remote to be even worth considering.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST,Jean
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 03:32 PM

Yes, I am in the UK so that is something I need to bear in mind. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 03:36 PM

The last time I read up on it, U.S. copyright law allows a person to make one copy of a recording they've bought for their own purposes. Turning vinyl into CD would be a good example. The money to pay for this is kicked into the kitty (ASCAP or BMI, I suppose) when people buy blank media.

Obviously, enforcing this would be pretty difficult. Can you see a cop stopping you, asking to see your CD and demanding proof that this is the only CD you ever made of that LP?

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:29 PM

Making for your own use is ok, as noted. Making a copy for someone else is a questionable issue, and copying for sale is probably/usually out of the question. If I am asked to copy old vinyl for someone (or, same thing, make somebody a copy of one of my copies), I check to see if it has been reissued as a CD. For example, all of the old Judy Collins records are in the process of being reissued. If so, then the answer is generally no, under the theory of "support your local folksinger." If it hasn't been, and there are no signs that it is going to be, then I'd probably make the copy, and accept the curses from those who would rather be completely legal than let someone else enjoy good music.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:10 PM

McCormick correctly states the UK position. Since the OP is in the UK the US (French, Russian, Japanese, Australian, etc) position is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST,Jean
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 03:59 AM

What would the situation be, that artbrooks gives, in the UK - about copying if something is so old that it is never likely to be reissued?

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: Alec
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:16 AM

Under those circumstances the principles outlined by Fred McCormick still apply.
Though if the recording (not necessarily the song or arrangement) is over 50 years old then the recording is out of copyright.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: avrosimones
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:26 AM

You'll be fine as long as you don't start selling them.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:37 AM

Are you planning to turn yourself in to the nearest police station and making a full confession? Thought not!

So who's going to know?

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST,Jean
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:41 AM

What about giving away a copy of something that is never likely to be reissued? From what Fred McCormick and Alec say that still would not be allowed in the UK even though I do appreciate that it would be difficult to be "picked up".

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST,Jean
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:45 AM

Shimrod, I appreciate what you're saying and I am feeling that I am being a bit "neurotic" about it all but it is quite interesting especially the differences between the UK and the US. Good point though.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:58 AM

The issue as to whether it makes a difference if the music being copied is currently available or not, has come up before.

If the music being copied from (e.g.) a vinyl LP dating from the 1970s, has been reissued on CD and is currently available, it seems to me morally wrong to make a copy of your album to give to a third party, when I would prefer to encourage them to buy the CD, so the artist and composer will benefit. Copying it for a friend is depriving these people of their deserved income from the recording.

If it's an album that isn't available on CD, then perhaps there is a weaker moral argument, in that you are not depriving the artist/composer of income. However, there's a chance it may be issued in future, so that should be a consideration too.

Legally as others have said, in the UK it makes no difference. Copying is still illegal, whether for your own use or not.

The chances of getting caught for just copying a record for a friend are pretty much zero, so I wouldn't worry about that aspect at all. But to copy or not to copy is a moral judgement you have to make, as to whether you are depriving the artist or composer of royalties by making a copy.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST,Jean
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:02 AM

Scrump, thanks for that - as you can see I do worry about things and the moral issue is just as important to me as the legal one.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 02:27 PM

I don't think much of an artist who expects me to re-purchase his 30 year old work every time the recording industry decides to change media.    Such folks need to produce some new music we all might want to buy, give some concerts, or get a job, if they are dependent on media migration for income. And their supporters should worry about REAL piracy going on out there with mass production of movies and cds for sale.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 03:00 PM

"What would the situation be, that artbrooks gives, in the UK - about copying if something is so old that it is never likely to be reissued?"

At the present moment, in the U.K., mechanical copyright (IE copyright on the recording, as distinct from that of the composer or arranger) expires after fifty years from the date of first issue. That situation is likely to prevail since The Gowers Committee on copyright review has just recommended that the situation be left as it is. Their grounds are that extending copyright would be no benefit to the recording industry, who make their money on royalties in the first two or three years after publication.

On the other hand there is no such thing as a record being so old it is never likely to be reissued. The situation is this. Where the original copyright holders have no financial incentive to reissue particular material, specialist reissue companies emerge to put it out instead. Such companies (Document, Frog, Yazoo etc) are usually run by enthusisasts who make the stuff available to numerically tiny audiences more as a labour of love than out of any desire to get rich. In fact their sales are invariably too small for them to make any real money.

Making illegal copies of records put out by major record labels would not cause me too many sleepless nights (especially given the track record of EG CBS in deleting artistically valuable material when it suits them). However, ripping off enthusiast labels, such as the ones I've mentioned, is a different kettle of fish entirely. If you're in any doubt, don't do it.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: fretless
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 03:11 PM

Jean, what deck/software are you using? The TEAC-350 does the transfer as a self-contained process, although with some degredation of the sound quality (particularly the bass). Did you consider that as an alternative? If copying is illegal in all circumstances in the UK, are the TEACs, which function exclusively for the legally prohibited purpose, on sale there?

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST,Jean
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:33 PM

Fretless, I'm using a Numark TTUSB turntable and Audacity software which came with it. I wasn't aware of the TEAC-350.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:15 PM

"I don't think much of an artist who expects me to re-purchase his 30 year old work every time the recording industry decides to change media. "

The artist usually doesn't have much say, poor bastard! And did you know that with some 'reissues' the poor bastards get screwed into accepting a lower royalty rate - 'to make it economic to release' - often at the original full price...

There has been a recent review of the TEAC-350 in the Aussie Mag 'Silicon Chip'. Basically the reviewer was disappointed - quality of what it does OK, but many negatives.

Just a few.
Only audio out is the headphone socket - amps and speakers are lousy quality.
No turnover needle for 78s.
The auto track separator gets confused on 78s.
No pop/click filter.
Cost AUD$600 !!!


The reviewer expressed the hope that TEAC uses this a base to do a proper product.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:37 PM

Oh - another negative.

Cheap ceramic cartridge.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:39 PM

"I don't think much of an artist who expects me to re-purchase his 30 year old work every time the recording industry decides to change media. "

I'm guessing that was supposed to be sarcastic. I doubt that this poster is still playing wax cylindar recordings!   Times change, technology changes. So you break into your wallet every 30 years. The moths need some fresh air anyway.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:43 PM

Oh Jean:
       I've had people come up to me at gigs, just to let me know that they've already got an album because someone made it for them or they won't be buying one because a friend is making a copy. Just the same, they felt that they should thank me for it. I get a chuckle out of that and can honestly say that I've never gone without a meal because of it but have felt quite flattered.
I have never felt that those who enforce the copyright laws are in it for anyone but themselves. In Canada, when you buy a CD or Tape, you pay an additional charge to SOCAN because they have convinced the courts that you intend to copy someone else's music. It's a joke!
Relax! Just don't try to profit from your exploits. That would be wrong.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:09 PM

Teac also has a version 650 all in one CD recorder, with superior sound to the 350--at least on the radio portion, the only part I heard--external inputs, and additional bells and whistles to make recording easier. The lit did not indicate a magnetic cartridge, so I assume not. At the store I sae both models the 350 had a US$399.00, the 650, $599.00; I saw the 650 the web for mid-$400s While I would like to have the 650 for convenience, I believe my wife would make me a eunuch if I brought one home.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST,Jean
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:23 AM

One good thing about this new piece of equipment I've got is that I'm listening to LPs I've ignored for years - I love it.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:12 AM

"I don't think much of an artist who expects me to re-purchase his 30 year old work every time the recording industry decides to change media. "

The artist usually doesn't have much say, poor bastard! And did you know that with some 'reissues' the poor bastards get screwed into accepting a lower royalty rate - 'to make it economic to release' - often at the original full price...

Yes, the artist usually has no control over whether their work gets reissued or not. The record company has the rights to the recording, not the artist.

I know one artist who recorded some albums for a large record company in the 1970s. During the 1990s, his career was revived, and his fans wanted the stuff reissued on CD. The artist tried unsuccessfully to get this to happen - the expected sales were too small for the company to justify reissuing it.

Meanwhile, a small specialist record company of the type mentioned above, were keen to reissue the albums. But the large record co. refused to let them have the master tapes, on the grounds that they may plan to reissue the stuff one day.

So basically, the large record co. was sitting on the material, and refusing to reissue it or let anyone else reissue it.

If they were to be reissued, the artist (who also wrote most of the songs) would benefit from royalties, but because the record co. refused to issue them on CD, he can't benefit from the recordings at all.

The only way around it is for the artist to re-record the songs for a different label, or these days on a private CD issue, more likely. Of course, these won't be the same as the original tracks, so it might not be a satisfactory solution for everyone. But at least the songs would be able to get heard again.

In a case like this, it's difficult to feel any guilt about depriving the record company of income, as they are the ones stopping people legally buying the recordings. But copying the albums onto CD and giving them to friends would still not benefit the artist, and you never know, one day the record co. might change their mind, by which time those with illegal copies might not bother to buy the official releases.

It would be good if the law were changed to stop this from happening, i.e. if the record co. refuses to release material, and another co. (or the artists themselves) are willing to releasse it, then the record co. should be forced to hand over the tapes (I guess some sort of financial constraints would apply, to stop the record co. pricing it too hightly).

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: Lucius
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:44 AM

I'm sure that anybody that goes to the trouble to burn their vinyl to CD does so because the songs are unavailable otherwise. Its a pain. But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for Paul Brady to re-release "Welcome Here, Kind Stranger". In fact, I bought a USED vinyl copy from eBay just for burning, as mine was trashed. How guilty do I need to feel. Do I need a cop, a priest or a shrink?

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:44 AM

I wouldn't feel too guilty, Lucius :-)

I may have (allegedly) burnt copies of vinyl LPs that are not available on CD, onto CD-Rs for my own use, and I feel OK about that, because if the albums ever get issued on CD, I'll probably buy that too if it's something I like a lot.

And I feel that copying a record you have bought, and paid the artist/composer royalties on, is simply transferring it onto a different format for ease of use. Years ago I used to make my own compilation tapes of songs I wanted to learn - now I do the same on CDs (well actually, since I now have an mp3 player I mainly use that).

Where I'm a bit more cautious is copying stuff for friends, just to save them the cost of a CD. As I said, if the CD's available I'd prefer them to buy it themselves. I once copied a rare live recording for a friend - no, an acquaintance - and later found bootleg copies of it for sale on ebay. I wasn't pleased.

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: GUEST,CJM
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 03:15 PM

If one ownes a LP or CD but the disk has been scratched, can one download a copy from a place like Kazza leagally?

Subject: RE: Vinyl to CD and copyrights
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 09:53 PM

Before such places existed, you would have been expected to buy a new copy - the scratching was considered to be a risk you assumed as a 'purchaser' of the product.

Not aware of any court decision involving the replacement of such a product if damaged AFTER 'purchase'.