Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,tuvya
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 12:40 PM

In Peter Sellers' version he replaces "Having a religion"
with "living like an angel" And at one point in the refrain's repeat I don't hear "Oh Fred..." I I hear something like "Oh Jim (or Tim...?) do back him in..." What is it really?

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 18 May 20 - 08:05 PM

http://www.ukulele-joe.co.uk/ujs/Grandpa's%20Grave.pdf

I don't know if that's help or hindrance, David.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,David Harley
Date: 18 May 20 - 06:44 AM

Tuvya: my fuzzy recollection of the refrain sung by Peter Sellers is:

"Oh mate, don't excavate
Don't desecrate poor grandpa's dugout
Oh, Fred, although he's dead
He needs a place to rest his head"

No idea where it comes from: maybe an invention of his own?

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 02:14 PM

Today is World Toilet Day. What other appropriate songs are there?

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,John Gallagher
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 05:19 PM

I first knew it from reading about a problem in St Johns Wood ( a ritzy district of London) in the 19th century when the local council decided to boild a public washroom in the locality. A public out burst erupted,as it was felt (NOT IN MY BACK YARD) It became known that the new sewer line would pass thru a corner of an ancient graveyard,which
resulted in this song. No idea how it turned out, but the song was very
popular in music halls of the period. Regards jlgallagher@live .com f

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Oct 17 - 02:18 PM

Charlie, you're welcome!

Good to hear from you.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Oct 17 - 12:08 PM

Belated thanks for your additional notes, Lighter9.

Charlie Ipcar

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Tuvya
Date: 27 Oct 17 - 04:48 PM

Can anyone tell me what Peter Sellers is singing in that raucous refrain. And where it comes from?

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Lighter 9 Feb 2015
Date: 21 Feb 15 - 03:05 PM

The Altoona [Pa.] Mirror (Apr. 15, 1901), p. 1:

                  " STREET PIANOMEN'S TUNEFUL TRICK

The street piano music venders have reduced cent-a-turn harmony to a science. The East Side of town is learning the new wrinkle today. Five pianos are required in the performance. No. 1 starts in at First street at 8 o'clock, beginning with 'The Holy City' and ending at Seventeenth street at noon with 'They Be [sic] Moving Mother's Grave to Build a Sewer.' Mo. 2 starts at Second street with 'Nearer My God to Thee' ending at Waverley field at 3 p.m. with 'Papa's Teeth Are Plugged with Zinc.' Each piano in turn follows the same route, getting about the same amount of money from the same class of residents. Thus is pay-day pleasantly passed and the children kept amused. Meanwhile the music grinder smiles."


I don't know what happened to the other three pianos, but you get the idea.


There's this too, from the Indianapolis Sun (June 4, 1902), p. 8:

"NEWBY OVAL PARK - Vaudeville

...This week's bill is an excellent one, with Arthur Deming as the headliner. Deming is about as funny a monologuist as the vaudeville stage has ever seen and...Tuesday...he was called back no less than four times.

'I will sing you a plaintive little ditty,' said Deming, 'entitled "It is better to have loved a short girl than never to have loved a tall," which will be followed by another sad thing, entitled "They have shifted little Willie's grave to build a sewer."'   Deming pleased the first night audience immensely."

And these:

Cincinnati Post (Aug. 14, 1903): "We do not know who wrote the song, 'They are Moving Mother's Grave to Build a Sewer.' "


San Francisco Call (Aug.27, 1906), p.6:

"Arthur Deming, blackface monologuist, made another appeal to culture by announcing that his next song was entitled, 'They Have Shifted Willie's Grave to Build a Sewer.' Plenty of folk laughed at it, however, so why be censorious?"


Lima [Ohio] Times Democrat (Jan. 22,1907), p. 8:

"Mr. Churchill had a note book in which he had jotted down what he had seen and heard at the Orphium [sic] on the evening of January 13. ...He said that preliminary to the raising of the curtain a boy passed through the house selling pop corn, hunky-dory, and chewing gum, and that the musical numbers included 'THEY'RE MOVING FATHER'S GRAVE TO BUILD A SEWER.' He also heard a dialogue in which one of the parties said, THAT THE REASON WOMEN WORE THEIR BLOOMERS SO SHORT WAS TO MAKE THE MEN LOOK LONGER."


Bemidji [Minn.] Daily Pioneer (Feb. 3, 1908), p. 4:

"One of the special features of the basketball games last Saturday evening was the music furnished by the high school brass band. ...
"According to Coach Markham, the selection which provoked enthusiastic encores was 'Who Moved Father's Grave to Build the Sewer?'"

Goshen [Ind.] Daily Democrat (March 17, 1908): "One of the topical songs...sung at a home minstrel show in Chicago was entitled: 'They Are Moving Poor Old Father's Grave to Dig a Sewer.' Chicago is no place for dead ones!


Fergus County [Mont.] Democrat (Feb. 9, 1909), p. 8:"ELKS PREPARING FOR A BIG FROLIC ...Banjo Duet, 'Moving Maggie's Grave to Dig a Sewer.'"



Evening Star (Washington, D.C.) (May 10, 1915), p. 7: "A minstrel or vaudeville troupe could always get a laugh by the announcement that Mr. So-and-So would now render that touching ditty, 'Since Sister Lost Her Gold-Filled Teeth, Her Smile Gives Me No Pain' or "'They Are MovingFather's Grave to Dig a Sewer.'"

Rock Island [Ill.] Argus (June 17, 1915), p. 4: "Our Refined Vaudevillians ... Now, ladies and gentlemen, we take great pleasure in offering for your approval what I consider the most popular of many songs I have written, 'They Have Shifted Willie's Grave to Lay a Sewer.'"

Altoona Mirror (Feb. 25, 1920), Sec. II, p.1: "KIWANIANS ENJOY MUSICAL PROGRAM ... Charles B. Lafferty, former president of the club, then entertained with cornet solo entitled: 'They Had to Move Little Willie's Grave to Dig a Sewer.'"

The Garden Island (Lihue, Hi.) (March 21, 1922), p. 2: "The Hi-Y Melody Manglers have accumulated a varied and extensive repertoire of syncopation concoctions. They shifted Willie's grave to dig the sewer, and one or two other touching arrangements are on the bill of fare."

Syracuse [N.Y.] Herald (Apr. 1, 1923) p. 12: "THE GAY NINETIES ...A waiter...suddenly bursts into song and wails out some heart-wrenching ballad about 'They Have Shifted Mother's Grave to Dig a Sewer.'"

Hutchinson [Kans.] News (March 12, 1929) p. 7: "The Lyons News is calling to mind the good old ballads of other days. Among others: 'Go Get a Hammer There's a Fly on Baby's Nose,' 'We Feed Our Baby Garlic So We Can Find It in the Dark,' 'They are Moving Willie's Grave to Dig a Sewer,' and 'Mother's Teeth Will Soon Fit Mary.'"

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Lighter 7 Jan 2015
Date: 21 Feb 15 - 03:04 PM

Sorry for the slip. In any case, the song as we know it was likely written for some lost vaudeville skit no later than 1913-14.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon 27 Jan 2015
Date: 21 Feb 15 - 03:03 PM

Not quite identical. It was "...Dig a Sewer" not "...Build a Sewer."

However, I'm not sure you can draw much of a conclusion from such a small difference.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Lighter 27 Jan 2015
Date: 21 Feb 15 - 03:02 PM

The context of the 1913 example is worth considering. Since the title is identical, it would be perverse to assume that it was not the same song - unless someone later wrote the song to match a fictional title.

According to the story "The Squab: A Page from the Book of Broadway," by the American pop novelist George Bronson-Howard,

"Peevey wrote the sort of songs you send word out to your cook to stop singing....Peevey had been a waiter in a 'honkatonk' - they call them 'cabarets' today. Such waiters sang. The most popular songs of these times - we speak of ten years ago - were of the home-and-mother variety, liberally sprinkled with gray hairs, mansions of aching hearts, birds in gilded cages and children who died young to cease from being 'always in the way.' ...

"Taste changed. So many parodies were levels at the bathetic ballads that the mere sound of a minor barber shop chord provoked titles like, 'Since Sister Lost Her Gold-Filled Teeth Her Smile Gives Me a Pain' and 'They are Moving Father's Grave to Build a Sewer.'...

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon 27 Jan 2015
Date: 21 Feb 15 - 03:01 PM

Here's another branch of the family tree:


THEY'RE MOVING WILLIE'S GRAVE TO BUILD A SEWER
As sung by Rick Fay on "Rick Fay Live in 1991! The Dixieland We Love" (2011)

SPOKEN INTRO: Here's a little tune now that I learned from Monte Ballou, Portland, Oregon, the great Castle Jazz Band. It's called "They're Moving Willie's Grave to Build a Sewer." *

They're movin' Willie's grave to build a sewer.
They're movin' Willie's grave to dig a ditch.
Well, old Willie was a good boy up till the day that he took sick.
Now to dig him up for sewage is a doggone dirty trick.
Well, why don't they leave him in the graveyard?
A better place I know there could not be,
{But I just don't think they oughter
Fill his grave with muddy water.}
They're diggin' Willie's grave to build a sewer.

[Repeat, replacing the words in {…} with:]

{Well, I've really got it right.
They're replacin' him with pipe.}


[* Indeed, WorldCat.org lists an LP and a cassette by that name and description published in 1986.]

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon 27 Jan 2015
Date: 21 Feb 15 - 03:00 PM

From The Journal of the Brotherhood of Boiler Makers and Iron Ship Builders of America, Vol. 15, No. 8 (Kansas City, Kas., Aug. 1, 1903), page 407:

Brother Lasarus Bloomberg made a hit in a number of popular songs and Bro. Buck Murphy brought tears to the eyes of some of the boys by his creditable rendition of that sentimental song, "Only a sliver from my sweet-heart's wooden leg." Brother Tommy Ward rendered a very catchy song entitled, "We had to move Paddy's grave to dig a sewer." Brothers Jurgenson and James L. McGuire of Lodge No. 385 San Francisco who were guests of the evening kept the boys laughing by singing all the popular coon songs....

I found similar references to:

"They Are Moving Willie's Grave to Build a Sewer" 1907

"They Are Moving Willie Brennan's Grave to Dig a Sewer" 1908

"Why Did They Move Poor Willie's Grave to Build a Sewer?" 1908

"They Are Shifting Mother's Grave to Build a Sewer" 1908

"They Are Moving Father's Grave to Dig a Sewer" 1913

"They Moved Father's Grave to Build a Sewer" 1918

In each case, only the title was mentioned.

Then I found no further reference to similar titles until 1961!

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Lighter
Date: 02 May 09 - 02:08 PM

I suggested on the other thread that the song probably originated in the 1930s. Perhaps I was wrong:

"Bro. Buck Murphy brought tears to the eyes of some of the boys by his creditable rendition of that sentimental song, 'Only a sliver from my sweet-heart's wooden leg.' Bro. Tommy Ward rendered a very catchy song entitled, 'We had to move Paddy's grave to dig a sewer.'"

(From "The Journal of the International Brotherhood of Boiler Makers and Iron Ship Builders of America," Aug. 1, *1903*, p. 407.)

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 02 May 09 - 01:27 PM

I can only add that it was recorded by the New Orleans jazz clarinetist, Joe Darenbourg. Sometime in the late 1940s, I think.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Jeri
Date: 02 May 09 - 11:20 AM

Look at the links at the top of the thread under 'DigiTrad'.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 09 - 11:19 AM

I am trying to find the full text of this song myself. To my recollection the song was sung by Peter Sellers in around 1959. It begins like this:

They're renoving Grandpa's grave to build a sewer
They're doing it regardless of expense
They're moving his remains to put doen sewage drains
to satisfy the local residents.



Gordon from Victoria

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:15 AM

"the Dead Sea Surfers jokingly introduced it as a "Maritime song" as it was from the Isle of Dogs."

Someone was pulling someone's leg, or at least lifting a leg.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:12 AM

Just remembered that the Dead Sea Surfers jokingly introduced it as a "Maritime song" as it was from the Isle of Dogs.

Perhaps they had a better idea of its origin?

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:17 AM

Push, Foolestroupe? I'm not sure I would have liked that. Removing it would have been better IMO :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:05 AM

There was a move in the 1920-30s around the world to push sewerage to as many homes as possible.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:38 AM

Granny-

Your step-father's "shit-house" ditty is certainly a hoot!

Freddie-

I think you and Malcolm are getting warm, circa 1930 sounds about right. But I think I'll check back with the son and daughter of the creator of "Pity The Downtrodden Landlord" and see if they can "shed" more light on this matter.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:01 AM

Malcolm Douglas said "Kilgarriff (Sing Us One of the Old Songs, the standard reference on Music Hall repertoire) doesn't mention it so far as I can see, so likely later than 1920."

The song is included in a collection of sheet music called "An Evening at the Music Hall" edited and arranged by Cecil Bolton, compiled by John Whitehorn, with a foreword by Michael Kilgarriff (2000).

Kilgariiff says: "Anon's final contribution, They're Moving Father's Grave to Build a Sewer, is much more recent, probably c. 1930. I was once in a pantomime in which Frankie Howerd announced his intention to sing this 'beautiful old thing' only to be interrupted before getting started; for nearly forty years I thought this title was no more than that - a comic title. Seeing it in the list of contents gave me a deeply pleasurable frisson, and I am thrilled to discover that both the melody and lyrics are of a high order."

So, spot on, Malcolm!

LFF

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Marie
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 12:07 AM

OK, the lyrics are probably English but the tune is Irish: Galway Bay.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Granny
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:39 PM

I also knew it as "father's grave"...I remember my step-father used to sing it. I am also reminded of a Victorian-style ditty of my late father's, which concerns a family unable to pay the rent when the landlord has come round, and had threatened to burn down the privy. One of the ragged children is singing plaintively:

Please don't burn our shit-house down
Mother has promised to pay
Father's away on the ocean blue
And sis in the family way
Brother dear has gonorrhoea
And times is fuckin' hard
So please don't burn our shit-house down
Or we'll have to shit in the yard.

I once sang this at a Bucknell Morris Ale, for Mick Jones who was at one time the pipe and tabor player for Wheatley Morris...he was absolutely speechless with mirth..!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Greg B
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:30 PM

As I recall the Clancy Bros version, it was surely Paddy Clancy
who sang it in full theatrical style, cockney accent an aw'

There seems to be a degree of bowdlerisation of the lyric--- but
it's easily re-constructed.

'...some high-society bugger wants a pipeline to 'is shitter...'

'...he'll dress up in his sheet an' 'ant that shit-house seat...'

It also appears to have some union connections, being as the
alternative title is 'A British Workman's Grave' and the final
bit is 'they got what they deserved, 'cuz they had the bloody
nerve, to muck about with a British workman's grave!'

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 12:43 PM

Thanks for that but looking at your references I can't see why the this explanation cannot be right. Surely slang is verbal and usually only gets written down sometime after it has been in use.
The Roma explanation sounds quite feasible but this doesn't mean that the use of the same word in slang denotes the origin of the slang usage of the word.

Anyway as we are drifting from the thread I'll get off.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:10 AM

Guest Hootenanny, just for starters, check a few of the following, and continue searching through Sheidlower, Morris, Quinion, or any other credible etymological source:

wikipedia

or here

or here

As to the non-existence of acronyms prior to WWII, it's a well-known, well-documented principle of etymology that acronyms (i.e. initializations pronounced as words, as POSH would be, or like "AIDS" etc.) are so rare as to be just about non-existent prior to 1940; in fact some etymologists point to SNAFU as the original of the species, but maybe not. It has nothing to do with when "the empire" fell apart.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:13 AM

"They're moving father's grave..."?

Inquiring minds still want to know its origin.

Cheeriliy,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 06:41 PM

Didn't you hear?

Norad had this unfortunate 'friendly elf' accident - well they really thought it was "Blue on Red" - why did he ignore their memo asking to change the colour of his costume?

Of course, the Retailers Association has lobbied enormously to keep it all hushed up - another example of 'Corruption being OK'!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 12:00 PM

Buck, perhaps you are not old enough to remember that we still had what was known as an empire even after WW11, and what does "almost NO acronyms that pre date WW11" actually mean? Are you saying that my explanation couldn't possibly be right?
If it doesn't bore others posting to this thread I would be interested to know who scuppered the idea re Port Out etc.

Anytime now I expect to hear that there is no Santa Claus.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Scrump
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:41 AM

I thought the word 'Posh' had been invented by former 'Spice Girl' Victoria Beckham (nee Adams). She tried to stop Peterborough United Footbal Club from using it as their nickname (which they'd been using long before she was around).

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:08 AM

POSH is no such thing. That wheeze has been discredited over & over. Origin unknown, but not acronym for anything (there are almost NO acronyms that predate WWII)

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:06 AM

It ain't rocket science to figure out that a quitter is someone who quits is it?

As for POSH it's an acronym for Port Side out, Starboard Home from the time when Britain had an empire to sail to and from.

I have no doubt at all that it is English and probably of music hall origin.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:12 AM

The three versions I've heard seem to come from a recent common source, as they are so close. They all sound English to me, including the one Charley Noble mentions, and they all sound like the Music Hall.
Maybe they sound English because that is where I heard them, though.

Possibly researching terms like 'quitter'(which may be modern usage, it used to mean pus) and 'posh' would help.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 09:19 PM

Well, the song does demonstrate a sense of class consciousness!

I'm beginning to wonder if it sprung from the Workers Music Association.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Mark Ross
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:49 PM

I learned it from the YPSL Songbook c.'63. That's the Young Peoples Socialist Leaague.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 10:24 PM

As Malcolm points out above, with a link, there is an existing thread where much of this question is discussed. But the origin is still not identified.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 07:17 PM

I got the song from Charles Chilton's book, Cockney Ding Dong, ISBN 0 7226 5061 2 , published in 1975 where it says that it was "collected by Charles Chilton". This version is like the first version in the DT but shorter.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 12:07 PM

I have it by the Clancy Brothers, I think still with Tommy Makem - great song.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 12:15 PM

See thread fathers grave for more information, and links to two DT transcriptions.

Kilgarriff (Sing Us One of the Old Songs, the standard reference on Music Hall repertoire) doesn't mention it so far as I can see, so likely later than 1920.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Mr Fox
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 11:47 AM

It's probably Victorian - Sheila Steafel performed it as part of her 'Victoria Plums' show.

Despite the best efforts of the Clancy Brothers, it's certainly NOT Irish.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 09:07 AM

This ditty definitely goes back to the 1930's, as "They're Moving Father's Grave." It's been collected in such Oak publications as THE PANIC IS ON, published in the 1960's but it appears to me to be a generation or two older. It probably originated in the last phase of the British Music Hall.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:20 AM

I learnt it as "father's grave" from the singing of the Dead Sea Surfers. Might be available recorded by them.

Subject: RE: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 04:32 AM

Dunno the origins but it was recorded by Peter Sellers and issued on a single and an album (Parlophone). I think it must be available on CD.

Subject: Origins: they're moving grandpa's grave
From: GUEST,Colin Bargery
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 03:46 AM

Does anybody know the origins of a song that begins "they're moving grandpa's grave to build a sewer" ?