Origins: Christmas Carol meters in Folk.

Subject: Origins: Christmas Carol meters in Folk.
From: Alec
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 05:40 AM

I have been wondering for some time if writers of songs that are, or are thought of as, traditional wrote verses to existing Melodies prior to creating a new melody for the finished result.
It is well known that the lyrics of "House of the Rising Sun" perfectly fits the melody of "O Little Town of Bethlehem"(& vice versa)
A version of "While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks by Night" can be sung to the melody of "On Ilkley Moor" & with minor modifications the words to "Blaydon Races" just about fit the melody to "God Rest You,Merry Gentlemen"
Can anybody think of any other examples?
Could these Melodies have been used as "templates" for new lyrics?
I know it's hardly seasonal but does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas Carol meters in Folk.
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 05:53 AM

The tune for 'On Ilkely Moor' was actually written as a hymn tune - it's called something like Cranbrook and fits many many songs and hymns, anything with a syllable structure of 8.6.8.6., by which token, House of the Rising Sun will also fit it.

LTS

Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas Carol meters in Folk.
From: Alec
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:04 AM

Thanks LTS,have just tried "Rising Sun" to "Ilkley Moor" & whilst it fits, the stressed & unstressed syllables are all over the place like the mad woman's underwear.
Had better luck with "Bethlehem" to the same melody.
However as a consequence one of the cats thinks I'm mad.
(The other one has been of that opinion for years.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas Carol meters in Folk.
From: RTim
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:11 AM

The Oh, Little Town of Bethlehem tune was collected by Vaughan Williams and is called Forest Green (after where is was collected I believe), unless you live like I do in the USA were they use a totally different tune.
I am always amused when in the US they sing the carol - Christmas tree, oh Christmas tree - because the tune they use I learned when a member of the Labour party - the Red Flag!

Tim Raford

Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas Carol meters in Folk.
From: Alec
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:49 AM

Further complicating matters RTim the tune originally used for The Red Flag was The White Cockade.
These days The Labour Party's usage of The Red Flag is beginning to resemble that of "O Christmas Tree".
Only sang once a year for purely sentimental reasons.

Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas Carol meters in Folk.
From: RTim
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 09:37 AM

Of Course I should have remembered in my first note about Bethlehem that the song Vaughan Williams collected to the tune was the Ploughboys Dream - which is a very dark religious revival type moral song.
As a related aside, In my former UK life I was the Squire & Foreman of the Adderbury Morris Men, and I wrote a dance for the team back in the 1980's to celebrate the birth date of the person who collected the dances in the village - Janet Blunt. The dance was called The Aniversary Jig and my old friend Chris Leslie (now of Fairport Convention) wrote a tune for the dance. However, when Chris was not around, no one could remember the tune! So I used to substitute Oh Little Town of Bethlehem because it fitted the dance. Now the team do two dances, very similar, one called Aniversary Jig and the second called Bethlehem!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas Carol meters in Folk.
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 01:28 AM

"are all over the place like the mad woman's underwear."

Are you trying to tell me something? :D

LTS

Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas Carol meters in Folk.
From: Alec
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:47 AM

I stole that simile from Germaine Greer, LTS, so it must be an innocent phrase.

Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas Carol meters in Folk.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:12 AM

Sheffield City Morris - as locals to the Sheffield carols - sing While Shepherds to just about anything.

Including the twenty (or thirty depending whom you listen to) versions from the tradition.