UK folk scene - what future for clubs?

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: BB
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 12:47 PM

A rose by any other name...

Our club is not called a folk club - it's Shammick Acoustic Sessions -
because we wanted people to be absolutely free to perform anything they wished, but because most of the people who come perform 'folk', it is, in effect, no different. And new people coming in who've not been involved in performing before tend to learn 'folk' material, as that is mainly what they hear there.

Now we're not youngsters - we've been involved in the music for forty years and more, and unfortunately, most of those who attend are forties upwards, so we're still having the same trouble as those who call their venues 'folk' clubs - we're not getting the real youngsters in.

Barbara

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 04:58 AM

There's no shortage of younger performers, it seems to me, judging by the "friend" requests I get from MySpace, as well as the fine musicians I've seen at festivals and in clubs, and no worries about using the word "folk" in their descriptions of what they do. There are acoustic clubs all over the country catering for them, too, some specifically singer/songwriter focussed.

When I started to go to folk clubs in my mid teens, the clubs were run by people in their twenties and thirties. So possibly these acoustic clubs are the folk clubs for the next generation - but I would be happier myself if some of the younger generation of performers were involved in running some of the better established folk clubs. Or if they invited some of us older performers to perform at their acoustic venues (ah, but would we be happy with the money ...see other thread ...).

Anne
http://www.annelister.com

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:30 AM

Hi Oggie try taking your son to the session at the Six Bells in Barrow the place is heaving with youngsters at the half term specials they have and they are'nt patronised either

Gerry

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:48 AM

Good point McGrath :-)

Maybe we should be lobbying the government to make all forms of folk music illegal. Kim Howells, where are you when we need you?

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:44 AM

"Nothing wrong with that per se, but if every club operated that way, there would be nowhere for new performers to learn the ropes and establish themselves enough to perform at the big venues."


That same sort of thing is what caused a big drop in the number of comedians - it required a change in society to get them practised and nurtured again....

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 12:31 PM

Now if we could only get them to move on from the Music Licensing Act to full scale prohibition of free-range music, we could really get somewhere. Nothing like a bit of illegality to make initially unappealing stuff strangely alluring for young people.

"Drop in, tune up, strike up..."

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:30 AM

well i don't think we should encourage young people.
If they turn up, we should say SOD OFF!

Hey, good idea - you may be onto something there, WLD. We all know the best way to get youngsters to do something is to tell them the opposite. So by making folk clubs for adults only (ooerr, missus!) they would be clamouring to get in. We would of course turn them away at first and then pretend to turn a blind eye when we let them in, on condition that they join in the songs and tunes properly :-)

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:23 AM

well i don't think we should encourage young people.
If they turn up, we should say SOD OFF!
This is a place for old and smelly people singing boring songs, so go and sling your hook, and stick it in your MP3 socket. And that was £50, for having the temerity to ask for a look round. Sorry we only do weekend tickets, and a fiver for the progamme.....and you haven't got a kagool........sorry, there IS a dress code mate....!

This sensible and frank approach I believe, will pay dividends in the end and put the tradition back on track.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:23 AM

Problem, how to hear the music?

Over the mass sounds of copulation you mean?

Well we never had any problem in my day!!

And I do remember a couple of wrinklies keeping a whole folk festival awake with their lusty sounds. I wanted to arrange a round of applause for them when they emerged next morning - but everyone was too exhausted listening. Moor and Coast did wonderful business, whilst we all stayed awake.

But the general err.err.........OK I'll say it - thrust - of your argument is spot on.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:46 AM

Lots of what's wrong, not a lot of how to get it right.

But there is more than a sniff of stuff I remember from when I was at university - and I NEVER went folking. I just wanted music that made the women swing their pants. For most people, going out is not about music, it's about sex. Remember?

There was a period when folk and access to the preferred gender might have coincided - now the closest one gets I suspect is the electro-ceilidh.

Of course, offer a lusty teenager a grope with a wrinkle and you'll scare them even further away.   Hmm, hmmm, problem here.

Answer! Poster in local nurse's hostel, girls drink free up to 9pm. Now the lads will come crawling.

Problem, how to hear the music?

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: GUEST,Mark Dowding at work
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:58 AM

Scrump said "I'd like to see concert clubs do more to encourage local talent, perhaps by having occasional session nights instead of just guest nights. At present they seem to rely on other smaller venues to nurture new people, without doing their bit to help this process."

I think the problem you'd have would be that the reputation of that style of club would be offputting to people going for a singaround. I would imagine that most people go just to listen to the Big Name artist and wouldn't bother going for a singaround night - especially if most people are 'incomers'and there are few regulars.
I don't think the Concert clubs are interested in encouraging local talent or they'd be running singers nights anyway.
The small venue still has a place - if the people who sang at may club were invited to do something at a bigger venue they'd run a mile - I'm not being nasty it's just the way they like it to be - an intimate gathering in familiar surroundings.

As an aside to this, there is mention of getting publicity in the local papers. Most towns have a local paper that covers a good area around it. My club had a piece in the "Village Life" section that the local rag had picked off a website and we got an extra 8 people in that week that didn't know the club existed! Some came back the week after and brought more people with them!

I've also been able to get large photos and articles about guests appearing at another club I was a regular at simply by emailing the information to the contact address. They wrote the copy from what I sent them and put it alongside the photo. This backfired once when the guest was a threesome and the local council picked up on this and threatened the landlady with fine and jail as they'd had complaints about the noise from a recent beer festival and were looking for an excuse to apply the 2-in-a-bar rule. Unfortunately we had to find other premises but the club is still going in a new venue.

Getting the folk to the people rather than getting the people to the folk - I've been involved in a couple of sell out evenings where a few of us have organised a concert in a village pub/venue, put the word around to the locals who've come along and enjoyed a good night's entertainment and gone away asking when the next one was going to be. Very few of them had been inside a folk club before and may not go to one at all but it goes to show that the interest is there if you put a bit of effort into organising and advertising.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:28 AM

clubs involve local communities, or should do.
Villans club and Swindon clearly do.
people should feel the club belongs to them,they should be places where communities get to know each other using music to breakdown barriers.
Festivals by their annual nature cannot do this as effectively,this is why clubs are important.
multi national capitalism would love to see communities weakened,support your clubs.

Well said Cap'n. That's one reason I think the 'grass roots' type clubs (where anyone and everyone can 'have a go') are important, as opposed to the 'concert' type clubs, where only artists that are already established are invited to take the stage.

Although I often attend the 'concert' type clubs, because I think they do have a role to play in terms of providing venues where established big names can perform and earn reasonable money, I note that many of the attendees are 'incomers' who may have travelled a long way to see a particular act. The next week at the same club, will largely be a different crowd, with the exception of a handful of locals.

Nothing wrong with that per se, but if every club operated that way, there would be nowhere for new performers to learn the ropes and establish themselves enough to perform at the big venues.

I'd like to see concert clubs do more to encourage local talent, perhaps by having occasional session nights instead of just guest nights. At present they seem to rely on other smaller venues to nurture new people, without doing their bit to help this process.

One idea seen at a local club is to have a sort of local artists' 'festival' occasionally, with a reduced entrance fee (the artists won't be paid a fee, although they will get free entry). This will showcase up and coming local artists who might well manage to get the odd booking from it. The punters seem to like it as it's a change from the regular guest nights, and they get a (hopefully!) good evening's entertainment on the cheap for a change. Maybe some of the concert venues could consider staging something like this once in a while.

As the Cap'n says, the community aspects are important, and that's one reason I like my local club, where I can perform occasionally myself, as well as see other, more established artists occasionally. Meanwhile I've made a lot of good friends who I enjoy meeting every week, whether doing a turn myself or not. I don't tend to know as many people at the concert club I regularly visit - not that they aren't friendly, just that the 'regulars' are few because most are 'incomers'.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:05 PM

When I was a teenager in the sixties and making my first tentative steps into the folk clubs I received encouragement, advice and constructive critisism from lots of people all of whom were considerably older than I was and I felt honoured by it - at least they thought I was worth encouraging. Now as the big 60 looms ever nearer and I am part of the organisation of a folk club it is always a pleasure to welcome youngsters to perform at our club either from the floor or as guests. Age difference was something that you didn't worry about back in the sixties and I don't see why it should be now.
Although we are a club that promotes traditional music and song I do hope that we don't present the forbidding image that seems to attach its self to traditionally based clubs. Please check out our web site www.tigerfolk.com and you'll see that we have just celebrated out sixteenth birthday with Damien Barber and Mike Wilson and that next month we have Chris Wood.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:43 PM

And then there are the ones that, half an hour after official closing time, will Medley 3 x 72 verse Child ballads. It isn't much fun getting home at 1:30 after the landlord has given you an earfull...

Wonder if we could introduce the old shepherds crook thing for dragging them off?

:D

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:53 PM

George. I fully agree about MC'ing a singers night. Sometimes it gives me the 'orrors. As club organisers, we have a responsibilty to the pub landlord (perhaps not a legal one but certainly a moral one) to help him stay within the drinking laws. Closing a club on time can, to some organisers, be essential to keep the club open. Singers with a few beers can overlook this and expect that if everbody else does two sets then they will too.

It's a desparate tightrope act some nights. :-)

Dave Wynn

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:12 PM

yes but a festival is only annual,most clubs run weekly or fortnightly.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:07 PM

A good festival should be whatever makes the attenders and the organisers happy. A celebration of local folk activities might work for some, but it wouldn't work for all.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:04 PM

A good festival should act as a kind of celebration of the local folk activities in the locality, drawing a lot of its volunteers and non-booked activities from that, and giving the whole scene a boost for the next year.

My impression is that that is true of Fylde, for one, and Leigh-on-Sea for another.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 01:42 PM

clubs involve local communities, or should do.
Villans club and Swindon clearly do.
people should feel the club belongs to them,they should be places where communities get to know each other using music to breakdown barriers.
Festivals by their annual nature cannot do this as effectively,this is why clubs are important.
multi national capitalism would love to see communities weakened,support your clubs.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 01:37 PM

"Folk is going through one of its periodic upswings, festivals do well, there's lots of talented young performers, lots of publicity in the newspapers and music mags, in fact it's almost hip." (GUEST,JeremyRS - PM Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:39 AM)

And one indication of the truth of that - today's Guardian carries this piece "Get your motor running Planning a long trip? Ian Clayton nominates the 40 essential driving LPs."   And just have a look at the 40 essential driving LPs he picks - people like Margaret Barry, Norma Waterson, Chumbawamba, Fairport Convention, A Century of Song (English Folk Dance & Song Society)...

Extracted from a book by Ian Clayton called Bringing It All Back Home, which I've clearly got to get hold of.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:35 AM

Peter: good point. Maybe our existing folk clubs will close down, but the young people's clubs will continue as they grow older until one day they will be old people's clubs and replace ours. Meanwhile the future youngsters will have started their own clubs, and...


Dave: no need to apologise!

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:23 AM

I am sort of making that assumption, Scrump. But only because I am an average sort of person and guess that if I did some other people will. What would have been more correct was if I had said "The same will happen with SOME of todays teens." So apologies if I came across as saying that it would happen to them all!

I did discover 'folk' much earlier than my first visit to a club for the record. Remember the late 60's and early 70's were full of bands like Steeleye Span, Pentangle, Fairport and, less discernably folky but my firm favourite, Jethro Tull.

I think teens today listening to, for instance, Kate Rusby or Seth Lakeman will not particularly recognise that they are listening to 'folk' (whatever that is!) but in some years time they may well latch on to something that triggers a memory. Maybe the good work that such artists are doing now will facilitate the 201* revival? I hope so:-)

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: GUEST,Peter Hood
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:14 AM

The UK folk scene caters for older people, we are older people clubs.
Last night 50+ people turned up at the Red Bull Stockport for The Orpheus Supertones!! What a great night! We were all old people.

There's loads of "young people" in clubs in Manchester, singing and playing, in young peoples clubs. Go to a few. See what's going on.
They're into Dylan and a few folk icons, they all love Kate R.
GO AND LOOK!!!
It's interesting that some of the best are dirty dark holes with beer on the floor.

They're nice people, a lot of them like folk music, they've heard of Nick Drake etc. but they don't want to come to old mens clubs. Look on my space, they're singing folk music. They like folk music, they have their own music clubs. They are my children and yours, they don't go to their old dads' club! Nor would I expect them to. Maybe one day when they're old as well they will.

Peter

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:12 AM

I was not born a folky. I was in my teens in the late 60's and early 70's. I went to rock concerts, discos and consumed all manner of substances I have since substituted with good beer:-) I was nearly 30 before I went to a folk club. The same will happen with todays teens.

With all due respect, Dave, you seem to be assuming everyone is like you in that respect.

I started going to folk clubs as a teenager and was regularly singing in them before I was 20, but I also liked other sorts of music and went to rock concerts, discos, etc., too. I never considered there was anything wrong in that. Many of my friends were the same, as far as liking more than one sort of music goes.

Maybe you just didn't discover folk music until later in life, but having discovered it you obviously liked what you saw/heard. What makes you think you wouldn't have liked it if you'd discovered it earlier?

I see quite a few young people coming along to folk clubs, admittedly when someone young is performing that they like (possibly having found them via Myspace). And maybe this isn't everyone's definition of 'folk' (don't let's get into that again here, please!), but these are the people who will be carrying on when we've gone.

I enjoy seeing a lot of these young artists, many of whom are very good musicians already, and they will presumably get better and better. I may not like every single thing they do, but then there are not many artists in that category, old or young.

The key as others have said is to attract them in and make them welcome. The music will do the rest.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:57 AM

I only think it may happen because I did it, Jeremy. Not at all scientific I'm afraid but if it has happened once I am sure it can happen again.

As to changing tastes being a questionable state. How so? Surely you do not like the exact same things that you liked 20 years ago do you? If people did not change their musical leanings as they developed how did the musical age gap develop? I think that gap is less today than it has ever been, probably because people in their between 50 and 70 saw the explosion of popular music of all kinds from the late 1950s onwards and are now far more tolerant than their forebears. As well as that I realy do believe that a lot of todays popular music is very good indeed. A lot of which will be excellent 'fodder' for the clubs of both today and tomorrow.

I think the answer in helping keep clubs alive is far more to do with the number of people that clubs attract than the age of the audience. I firmly believe the 'club scene' (whatever that may be!) is in the doldrums at present but that does not mean that their will not be another revival. And another. And another...

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM

Hi Melodeonboy,

I wouldn't disagree with what you wrote, and I'm sure it's true in lots of places, but the key part is that young people are made welcome once they walk through the door. It's getting them to do that that I think is the problem.

I also think that the listening to music on the basis of fashion etc. was ever thus, perhaps even more so in the 60s when there weren't distractions like the internet, and yet that was when folk clubs were perhaps at their peak. This isn't about attracting a mass audience, it's about attracting enough to make your local club viable, from the point of view of both performers and organisers.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: GUEST,JeremyRS
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:19 AM

Dave, why do you think that enough of/any of todays teens will eventually come to folk clubs? If that was the case then there wouldn't be a problem, as every year there would be a natural refreshing of the audience, as people the reached the "folk club attending age" (whatever that is) and replaced the 70+s who left.

In addition, the implication of what you say is that folk clubs provide "something" that is unattractive to people under a certain age and atractive to those over it, which I think is questionable.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:14 AM

I think a lot of interesting points have been raised on this thread and it's encouraging to note that there seems to be an absence of know-it-alls but plenty of knowledgeable people contributing who genuinely care about the subject.

Just to add my twopenn'orth, I returned to Britain some 18 months ago after many, many years away and I have been welcomed, as a newcomer, in all clubs/singarounds/sessions that I've attended, even though much of my material is/was either unorthodox or unknown to most people there. As for welcoming younger people, they're certainly made very welcome and, indeed, encouraged at the clubs that I attend (mainly singarounds in the bar - do they count as clubs for the purpose of this discussion? - I like to think so).

As I mentioned on another thread, young people will now, more than ever, listen to music on the basis of fashion, the peer group they belong to, the peer group they want to belong to, who they see in the media, what they're fed on mainstream radio etc, etc. It's not easy getting them to break the mould.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:06 AM

No - sorry Jeremy - attracting a younger audience is not the answer either. If the average age of a folk club stays at 50+ it matters not one jot as long as the numbers keep up. Everyone gets older so as the 70+'s drop out of the scene the 30's become the 40's the 40's become the 50's and so on.

I was not born a folky. I was in my teens in the late 60's and early 70's. I went to rock concerts, discos and consumed all manner of substances I have since substituted with good beer:-) I was nearly 30 before I went to a folk club. The same will happen with todays teens.

Imagine the scene in 20 years - All todays teens sat around, dreaming of the good old 00's, sipping their designer water and listening to accoustic covers of Kaiser chief songs and concertina rap...

:D

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: GUEST,JeremyRS
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:39 AM

I don't think there is one answer that will address the problems of every folk club, but I do think the core problem for all of them is the same, audience age: if you don't get a younger audience then you're doomed no matter how nice the toilets are or how great the support act is.

Folk clubs do have a bad image, but the problem isn't the f-word. Folk is going through one of its periodic upswings, festivals do well, there's lots of talented young performers, lots of publicity in the newspapers and music mags, in fact it's almost hip. Consider also nu-folk, (which I know isn't folk at all a lot of the time), a burgeoning and hip genre that attracts a wide but also much younger audience.

But how is that audience attracted? By the same means that any audience is attracted, speaking to it in its language and answering the "what's in it for me?" question.

To take the language point, do folk clubs make full use of the web, do they have a MySpace site, do they leaflet the Student Union rather than the folk club in the next town, do they present the performers as funky and interesting (not necessarily young), and so on and so on? I think not. I see a lot of folk club flyers, and almost without exception they're black and white, typed, possibly with a badly photocopied picture of the artist, some blurb that talks about their "musicianship" and perhaps a quote or two from a magazine that nobody under 20 reads or a musician that nobody under 30 has heard of. Not that likely to attract anyone young is it.

I could go on, but the point is, understand what the people you want to attract want and how they communicate, and act upon it. If you do so they will come.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:31 AM

Clubs will either survive or they won't. Quite simple realy. While us 'oldies' (Just turned 54 myself) are willing to support them they will continue. If no-one supports them when we are gone they will fail. What I suspect will happen in reality is that the young who do not want to support folk clubs today will be quite happy to do so in 10 or 20 years time when they have had enough of dance clubs, raves and expensive concerts. It is a cycle of changing audiences. We may see ups and downs but I feel it highly unlikely that clubs will disappear altogether.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:16 AM

I agree George, if the experience of going to the club is bad, its name won't make any difference.

I was thinking of a club that might be having difficulty attracting younger people, and they might be put off by the name 'folk club'.

If the club's a good one (as we understand it - enjoyable artists and good atmosphere, as opposed to the boring floor singers doing the same 3 songs week in week out), then the challenge is to get people in the door, especially the young people that will hopefully give it a future when we're gone. Once there, the chances are they will enjoy themselves and come back in future.

But if the club is suffering from the problems some have mentioned (immovable floor singers who insist on their right to bore the audience every week, and an organiser too timid to do anything about it) then more drastic changes will be needed.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:09 AM

Scrump, I don't think the cosmetics of the name make that much difference; it's the content, the experience you get when you go to a club that will be either good (and you'll return, and tell others) or bad (and you'll run a mile and also tell others). Sort of "a rose by any other name..." in reverse.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:31 AM

Advertise live music with guitarist/vocalist/multi-instrumentalist.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: GUEST,Mark Dowding at work
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:29 AM

The above was me!

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:28 AM

Well if the clubs I attend are anything to go by, the demograph gives them another 20 years at the most. I tend to be one of the youngest ones there at 46. Some members have retired, some are about to, some don't come any more due to age and health.
30 years ago when I first went to folk clubs (when I was still at school), the people involved were in their 20's and 30's - now they're telling us about their grandchildren! I have never seen an influx of younger people coming in behind me - maybe the odd one or two but not enough to keep the interest alive over the next 30 years.
Yes we do see younger people around at Festivals but I don't believe the festival environment is enough to keep the interest there - it's a very seasonal thing and as has been pointed out - not cheap. On top of the ticket cost there's travel, accommodation, food, beer...

The club that I now run would probably have folded last year if I hadn't agreed to take over the running of it. Most of the regular attendees are very parochial in the sense that Monday night is folk night and they're not interested in going anywhere else but they're not bothered - it's a night out listening to songs and poems - until I decide I've had enough or circumstances dictate that I can't commit myself. Don't get me wrong - we all have a good time and enjoy the crack but sooner or later it will no longer be running.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:14 AM

You get bad mannered people like oggie's fiddler of all ages. I suppose we all find it harder to cope with that kind of stuff when it's from someone of another generation, whether it's a grumpy old sod like that or a sneery young lout. When it's someone of our own age it's a lot easier to shrug it off or come back with a put-down, while still sticking around.

The great thing about folk music is that has always tended to resist the corralling of people into generations, but in doing so it goes against the spirit of the time. That isn't to say that there isn't always a tendency of people to hang around a lot of the time with contemporaries, but that has been balanced by the tendency to get together with fellow enthusiasts of all ages, in all fields - and that seems under threat these days.

It's been said, accurately enough, that at one time the clubs were full of young people, and the only older ones you'd see were among the guest performers. Now it's the other way round - the members are the old ones, and the only young faces are liable to be paid guests.

The truth is there are probably more good, and potentially good, young musicians around than there ever have been. The difference is that when the clubs came into existence there wasn't any significant number of older people breathing down their necks while we learnt.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:13 AM

The other thread whence this one sprang is still going along in parallel.

One point to come out of it is that the term "folk club" might have an 'image problem'.

Maybe calling a 'folk club' something else would be a good idea, if you want to attract more people in. The old stereotype of fingers-in-ears, Aran sweater clad pipe smoking sandal wearing bearded old blokes warbling their way through 78-verse Child Ballads in reverent silence is perhaps too strong to overcome.

Calling it something else might help. The question is, what? Let's have your suggestions.

That said, there are still plenty of thriving folk clubs that don't seem to be suffering from this problem, so not all clubs need to change their name, it would seem. But for the rest, it might help, and I don't think you'll get many outraged by a simple name change. Or am I wrong?

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:25 AM

Don't they just, Robin...yes, I've seen plenty of that. God help me, even I have my own preferred seat at Herga and always make a beeline for that; at least I have the grace to shut up if someone else makes it there before me. So far!

Who would be an MC at a folk club on a singers' night - now there's a thankless task. If you get it right you get no reward, if someone feels slighted you get an argument.

I have to say that George (dragonzorg), who MCs Herga, is a master at putting together a mix from what is available in the room while making allowances for those who have to go early to catch a bus, ensuring a reasonable closing 2-3 spots, giving newcomers and youngsters an extra turn if possible etc.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:21 AM

I don't have the experience of visiting a wide range of clubs across the country, but the best ones I go to locally do book "up and coming" young acts as well as the established older hands. The reaction to these younger people is usually positive in my experience, and the (mainly middle-aged) punters usually express the view that it's good to see younger people performing in the clubs, as it indicates hope for the future, etc., etc. You often do get young friends and fans of the performers coming along as audience members too.

I wonder if some clubs don't invite or book young performers because they don't think they would go down well with the predominantly older audience? If this is the case then I guess these clubs will die out with the audience and organisers. Good organisers will try to balance the 'tried and tested' with the new acts, and from what I've seen, this works, by and large. But I don't claim to be an expert, as I'm not an organiser, just a punter and performer.

How to get young people to come along? One of the things that got me to come along to my then local folk club as a teenager was when the club did a show at our school. This was free to the attendees (us schoolkids). It got at least me interested enough to start going along to the club, and after a short while, performing as a resident myself. I don't know whether any clubs still do that sort of thing, but it might be worth thinking about?

Once you get younger people in, you need to encourage them and not stamp on their efforts by saying "that's not proper folk music" or whatever. Once they get involved they will want to learn from the older performers anyway, but to start with you need to nurture them and not frighten them off before they've got started.

I do appreciate the problem of the boring resident singers who churn out the same old songs week in, week out, and I've often experienced it myself, even at one well known club that is otherwise exemplary. I'm not sure what the answer to that is. I often appear myself as a floor singer or support act, and I always try to sing as many 'new' songs (i.e. that I haven't previously done at the same venue) as I can - I enjoy the challenge of learning and trying out new material and I continually aim to widen my repertoire. I could just sing the same half-dozen songs each time, but that would be just as boring for me as for the audience. Of course I occasionally do sing songs I've done before (songs are after all not just meant to be sung only once), but I try not to do anything I've done recently - unless as occasionally happens, I get a request!

So why do these 'boring' singers keep doing the same old stuff? If we could analyse that it might help. Perhaps they like to stick to the tried and tested, instead of going through the hassle of remembering words to new songs? Or are they just complacent or even arrogant?

How can the organiser deal with them? I guess many of these people are old friends and the organiser may find it difficult to deal with them without upsetting them. Maybe they need to organise more sessions and invite the best people from those to do the odd floor spot or support slot (depending on how the club operates), to widen the pool of floor singers/residents. Then they could say to the 'stage hog' that they will alternate with someone else. If these people take umbrage that's tough. Hopefully they will understand that they have no 'right' to a particular spot every week, which from the above posts I gather is the position in some clubs.

Apologies for the rambling nature of this post, but I hope it might lead to further discussion about how to deal with the various problems that seem to lead to clubs dying out.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:46 AM

In all human endeavours, people play "Power Games" - like "I always go first", or "I always go last", etc...

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: selby
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:32 AM

I have 2 sons 19 & 17 both brought up at festivals and both accomplished players they have been in sesions and concerts all their lifes with us. The choice is now theirs and they choose to go into sessions where they can share with others and show off a bit by learning a new tune and getting it accepted and they are accepted for what they are. If they ever go to a folk club with us with their instruments they have to wait while Tom Dick or Harry who always open goes second etc do their bit and then get an oppertunity at the end, usually rushed to show their skills and knowledge. We do not encourage the young ones enough unfortunately when we do we are looking for stars not journeymen who enjoy folk music,song and dance. Through my sons and other outlets I know that there are loads of youngsters who perform to a high standard getting them into folk clubs is a failing on our side perhaps we are scared of them. Folk music will always excist but not as we know it, the clubs have had there day and will return later.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: GUEST,Neovo
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:28 AM

I agree with GUEST Andy above about having to sit through the same darned regulars before reaching the guest artist. Sometimes instead of. Our local folk club has singers nights when the regulars sing and then on guest nights the regulars do support (not floor spots you understand but support) for the guests. These tend to be people who never made it in the folk scene up to now and are hanging on for their break which they hope will surely come in their 40s and 50s, still waiting to be "discovered". Quite sad really. You would not pay a going concert rate to hear them. If a club charges a concert rate (£10+ a ticket) for a good artist I suspect the audience would be rather thin if they are expected to sit in a dingy back room and plough through darned regulars for 40 minutes of the booked artist.

At festivals you can choose a concert packed with good artists of various types or you can go to the singaround/session. It's not expected to be a mixture of both. And folk clubs hide themselves away in dingy back rooms and are spoken of as mystery and intrigue by the pub regulars.

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:12 AM

I believe that most of the kids who DO have any musical training outside and before any interest in 'f*lk music' will be driven away by such mentioned attitudes - just how many youngsters (under 40!!!!) turn up with NO previous musical training experience unless "their parents are into the same sort of music"?

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:02 AM

An interesting and reflective thread, and thank you George for starting it.
It's an issue that seems to have been addressed both directly and tangentially many times over the years on this forum, and each time I think the answer has been the same - that the days of the folk club as we know it are probably numbered, but that the music will survive.

My own take on it is that, for many of us, life is such that the ability to give up one night a week (or even one night a month) is a now a luxury.
Look around at other hobbies and you'll see the same things and hear the same complaints; there has been a 'drawing in' to the point where only the die-hards and the veterans continue to come to the room above the pub/the village hall/the local library to discuss photography/share their stamp collections/build model railways/sample home-brews/display model soldiers/whatever.
The 'hobby' as we know it is going the way of grey flannel trousers and the cardigan, and folk clubs constitute such a hobby.

I mentioned the pressure of life in general, but there are other causes. One is an increasing insularity and lack of cross-generational mixing in society today, and another is the rise of this medium - the internet.
And, of course, there also seems to have been a national collapse in self-confidence. It's mirrored in our culinary skills - people will happily sit and watch television programmes about cooking but they can't/won't cook themselves. We have shifted from an active to a passive role and would rather have entertainment beamed at us than make our own.

All of which sounds pretty negative, I know, but I do think festivals are a beacon of hope in an otherwise depressing landscape. However, I believe there will need to be more crossover between genres if folk is to survive with any strength as a participatory art. It's something that is already happening at the younger end of the spectrum and which is making its way into the mainstream - look at Bellowhead with their kletzmer and salsa-inspired rhythms adding spice and colour to very traditional material.
I know the purists probably wring their hands at such desecration, but to me it's a healthy sign. The music is still respected but it is played without kid gloves and allowed to live.

Even festivals have their problems, though.

Sadly, however, I often see a musical 'apartheid' in action at sessions. The strictly traditional stuff is played well and with gusto by the greybeards in the back rooms of pubs, while the youngsters play among themselves around the food stalls and the beer tents. Too many have experienced the sort of patronising attitude that Oggie describes and have voted with their feet.
And, for many kids festivals are expensive and therefore exclusive. Many are there only because their parents are into the same sort of music and are willing to pay for a ticket, so it's unlikely that 'outside' blood or working-class youngsters will be drawn into the tradition.

So what's the answer?

I'm b*ggered if I know. It would be great if a campaign like CAMRA could be mounted with the same success for traditional music, or of a cult figure could do for folk what someone like Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstal has done for food.

One can dream...

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: oggie
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:30 AM

Learning quietly was also what Peter was trying to do, surprisingle maybe it is one of the things that being a chorister teaches you. He'd been to Folk Festivals since he was 4, the afternoon Kid's Folk Club at Cleethorpes was brill, had dropped out in his early teens and then decided to go back, asked to go to a session and whoops.......

More importantly if the music and clubs is going to thrive WE need young people. Like Dave I was lucky, I now worry about the future. At a recent, well run, session there was one player under 20, a couple of others under 30 and at 50 I was still one of the younger ones there, scary.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 09:09 PM

Oops...

The point I wanted to make is that when sufficient individuals each decide (through bitter experience) 'that they won't be missed' do the numbers add up to a significant quantity?

Of course they do!

And people complain that the numbers are dwindling...


"while you are learning, learn quietly"

I couldn't agree more...

- exactly in line with what I said.... :-)

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 09:04 PM

Oggie's tale is rather unfortunately rather common regarding 'musicians who have had formal training' butting up against ignorant poorly self taught w*nkers 'folk musos'.

I can think of more than one 'session' where some mature aged person with no previous musical experience has spent all of a couple of months 'learning' (well they can tootle a few 'Irish Tunes' almost in time, but usually far too fast!) the whistle, then starts ordering around people who have 40 years or more musical experience, musical training, or who play multiple instruments, and often in multiple musical styles.

What is even worse, is when some members of 'the audience' who never 'put themselves up as soloists' do much the same...

No matter WHAT their age, who would bother putting up with that sort of arrogant crap for long? Better to 'let them have their fun on their own' - as long as their 'supporters' are happy, why not let them be so until the place falls apart? Those with real talent are too busy getting on with their life to worry too much about them, they will always move on somewhere else to do something else that they enjoy - I do pity these poor ignorant arrogant sods, they HAVE no other life...

Remember that poem ...

The Indispensable Man

Sometime when you're feeling important,
Sometime when your ego's in bloom,
Sometimes when you take it for granted
You're the best qualified in the room.

Sometimes when you feel that your going
Would leave an unfillable hole,
Just follow these simple instructions
And see how they humble your soul.

Take a bucket and fill it with water,
Put your hand in it up to your wrist,
Pull it out and the hole that's remaining
Is a measure of how you'll be missed.

You can splash all you wish when you enter,
You may stir up the water galore,
But stop, and you'll find that in no time
It looks quiet the same as before.

The moral in this quaint example
Is do just the best that you can,
Be proud of yourself, but remember---
There's no indispensable man.



:-)

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 09:00 PM

Oggie, I had a different experience. I went to a session some 30 years ago and sat next to an old guy playing fiddle. I was playing guitar and said to him that I was pretty new to session tunes. He said, with a twinkle in his eye, have a go lad but while you are learning, learn quietly.

Dave Wynn (A.K.A. Spot the Dog)

Subject: RE: UK folk scene - what future for clubs?
From: oggie
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:42 PM

There is more live music today than there has been for many years, there are more young people playing instruments than ever, there are more sessions and open mic nights than before BUT young people are making their music largely outside the established folk clubs. It was ever thus. Some of us stumbled in and were welcomed (but as a 15 year old unaccompanied singer I'd struggle to get a floor spot today in most clubs) but I was the only kid in a school of 400+ who was into folk. I was also lucky in the generous people I met.

I didn't meet the fiddle player my son met when I took him to a session. I'll explain, Peter is a trained ex-chorister played fiddle, mandolin and concertina. Age 15 I took him to a session, tune he knew was being played, he played his concertina but played a low harmony part "we only play the tune here, if you can't play shut up" said fiddler. Peter smiled, said nowt. Bit later he started a tune, "It's too slow" said fiddler (it wasn't) who promptly took it over and played way to fast and badly. "You should learn to play properly before you come here" said fiddler "You should learn some manners and to play in tune" said Peter as we packed up instruments and left.

That was 3 years ago, Peter still plays at home but hasn't and won't go back to another folk event. He plays keyboards in a rock band instead. I didn't go to any session for 3 years either, it left a bad taste, especially as the other players there didn't seem bothered.

So do Folk Clubs have a future, a dying one unless we care for the few youngsters who come our way.

Rant now over, I'll go back in me box.

All the best

Steve Ogden