Polly Von - poaching

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: Anne Lister
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 03:41 PM

There are, apparently, some swans which are Crown property. Black ones for sure, but certain stretches of river as well, I think. On the other hand, a black swan would have stood more chance with this particular hunter. If only Molly/Polly had had a dirty apron!

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 12:55 AM

There was an article a few years back in WoodenBoat Magazine about swan upping, which is apparently an annual ritual performed from wooden boats. During the ritual upping, cygnets are banded and older swans are counted. After the proceedings, the participants retire to a local inn for a swan dinner.

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 10:47 PM

Very kind of you; I am sure that we are all glad that you are satisfied with our modest efforts.

However, if you are still here, I should mention that new information was brought to my attention by Steve Gardham shortly after my post here; my comments in this thread in re the earliest known appearance of the song in print are therefore out of date. For more information, see the new, revised edition of Marrow Bones (EFDSS, 2007).

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: GUEST,Xonk
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 10:04 PM

Thanks for well researched response, you have answered the question to my satisfaction.

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 04:23 PM

This song is also known in England, Ireland, Canada and the U.S.A. as Molly Bawn; Peggy Baun; Molly Ban; Molly Bond; Molly Banding; Molly Vaughan; Polly Vaughn; At the Setting of the Sun; The Shooting of His Dear; As Jimmy Went A-Hunting.

In my opinion, a lot of collectors and commentators have written nonsense about this song, importing elements that are not there. For example, Cecil Sharp identified the changing of the woman to a swan – not in the song! – with Celtic mythology. Roy Palmer in Everyman's Book Of British Ballads, writes, "The mysterious death of a woman in the guise of a swan has profound reverberations. It recalls the death of Procris in classical antiquity and the swan maidens of northern mythology." The similarity with the Procris fable is only surface level. The point of the Procris story (visibly recurring star constellation) is entirely different to that of the song (a shooting accident followed by guilt and a ghostly apparition to plead for clemency). And the swan maidens of northern mythology had been literally turned into swans. Nowhere does this song state or even imply that Polly actually became a swan or that she had to be shot in order for her human soul to be released, as in the ancient myths. She was shot in the dark, by mistake. A search of the internet quickly reveals just how many shooting accidents still happen, including fatalities. A TV documentary in 2006 about modern-day night-time poachers showed just how easy it is to main or kill a person, mistaken for an animal, in the dark. One poacher, seeing two eyes shining in the dark, took aim at his prey: he shot his own son.

Are swans illegal to kill? Not quite that simple. There used to be (don't know if there still is) a law that said only royalty could kill or eat swans. This is often mis-cited as meaning all swans anywhere in England, but the law stated only that commoners could not kill royal swans which lived in grounds owned by royalty - in other words, it was a law against poaching.

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: Maryrrf
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:15 PM

In earlier times (16th - 17th century) Swans were considered a real delicacy and were often featured in celebrations that involved feasting. There wasn't any taboo about eating them. That must have come later, when they came to be considered to be more objects of beauty than as food.

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:12 PM

I certainly know that there are certain problems with applying rules of 21st century culture to 18th century cultures or even applying the rules of mid-America Ozarks to that of other 21st century cultures elsewhere, but I just curious.   Thanks to all for playing.

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 02:33 PM

I've always had the impression that there must be some sort of taboo against killing swans, and that there may be some sort of sexual overtone to swans and the killing of swans. This is all conjecture on my part, but it's something I've wondered about for years - at times when I've had nothing better to do....

But then I've wondered, if people cook goose for Christmas, how much different can swan meat taste?

-Joe Offer, who prefers chicken-

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: GUEST,Non poacher
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:24 PM

Cannot remember the date the law changed, but way back when, swan was classed as a 'Wild Fowl' as was duck, goose, coot etc. and could be shot as they.

I believe (but may be wrong) that Peter Scott held the record at one time for the most swans shot during a 'flight'. (Session of wildfowling). He later went on to form what became the RSPB.
If I am wrong I apologise to his memory!

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:32 PM

I've been led to believe that Polly/Molly suspected her fella of two timing so she went out to check on him. It started to rain and she took cover under some bushes and covered herself in her apron to protect her. Jimmy saw some white in a bush, assumed a swan and shot at Polly/Molly.

For some of the "working classes", it wasn't poaching, it was part of staying alive.

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: Arkie
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:27 PM

Thanks for the comments.   I have heard a number of versions of the ballad and have none refer to the shooter as a poacher, but wondered if swans were considered fair game. Never having made any study of hunting I was just curious since I have never heard of an incident, other than this ballad, when someone went out hunting swans.

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:41 PM

There seems to be no evidence at all of an earlier song which involved transformation. The earliest known (and incomplete) text was published by Robert Jamieson in Popular Ballads and Songs (Edinburgh, 1806, I 193-195); it was provided by a Professor Scott of King's College, Aberdeen, who got it from one of his maidservants. Jamieson had recalled the story (but had "forgot the terms in which it was conveyed") from his own childhood.

It's the only variant ever recorded in oral tradition in Scotland, seemingly. As in later forms, the shooting is merely a hunter's mistake made in the failing light of evening. The supernatural element consists solely in the dead girl reappearing as a ghost.

The song was quite common in Ireland and Southern England, having been published by various broadside printers. A number can be seen, under various titles, at  Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads:

Molly Bawn / Whan etc

Wherever the text published by Jamieson came from originally, the broadside form seems to have started out in Ireland, and English variants are frequently sung to Irish tunes. Commentators have frequently waxed lyrical on the subject of swan maidens and magical transformation, but there's no compelling reason to think that is anything more than romantic wishful thinking. Hunters shoot people all the time under the impression that they are game.

I doubt if any version of the song mentions poaching; Jimmy is described as "a hunter" or "a fowler". In England, swans do not belong to landowners; technically they mostly belong to the Crown, so far as I remember. I have no idea what the legal status of swans was in Ireland in the late 18th or early 19th centuries, but the song certainly seems to take for granted that there was nothing remarkable about shooting them.

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: DADGBE
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:32 PM

Perhaps the reference is to the culinary uses of poaching. Has anyone tasted poached swan? Doesn't sound too appetising!

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: Maryrrf
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:53 PM

I have never heard any version of the song with a reference to poaching, and if there is one I think it would be a recent addition.

Subject: RE: Polly Von - poaching
From: DADGBE
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:48 PM

Hi Arkie,

As I understand it - which may not account for much - Polly Vaughn is a version of a much older ballad in which she is a shape shifter. The swan and Polly are one and the same.

Subject: Polly Von - poaching
From: Arkie
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:27 PM

Was it against the law to shoot swans in ancient times.   Would the person who shot Polly because he thought she was a swan a poacher?