cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional

Subject: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:23 AM

John Cages famous composition 4 33,how is this categorised,the peice changes every time it is performed,so is it a composed peice,yet it evoves and changes like traditional music,it can be consciously improvised by the participants so is it jazz.
I think it should be Englands new national anthem.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional
From: Alec
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:37 AM

Back in the Thirties jukeboxes used to come with 3 minute silent records.This was so employees working in locations where jukeboxes were used could enjoy brief respite from other people's choice of music(It goes without saying they had to pay for the privilege.)
Taking this into account,I would respectfully suggest that the Cage piece should properly be considered a regional variant of a pre-existing work.:0)

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:45 AM

Funny how you can go all day without a sniffle or a cough, but as soon as someone calls for silence, you develop a tubercular cough that sounds like someone rolling ball bearings down a corrugated tin roof and starts round about your knees.

It's classified as a 'classical' piece if you ask Virgin Megastores. HMV wouldn't know silence if it hit them between the ears.

LTS

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 07:35 AM

You need to have a very careful trawl through the archives at Cecil Sharp House, in order to find out exactly how a traditional silence was played.
The key point will be to ensure that only the correct instruments are Not played.
I cannot except that these modern digital silences created by not pressing the space bar on a laptop computer sequence are acceptable in any way in the folk context.
Only geniune folk instruments must be not played, and ideally they should be silent in just intonation too.
I remember hearing a silence from an old Yorkshire Dales farmer years ago. He assured me that it was a traditional way of saying nothing, so if I record a silence now, can I be nominated for best traditional non-singer next year?
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional
From: GUEST,Noreen
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:35 AM

Mike Batt included a track on one of his recordings a few years ago, that consisted of one minute of silence, crediting John Cage. The publishers of John Cage's 4'33 sued him, alleging that he had plagiarised Cage's work.

Batt responded in typical style saying that his song is in 4/4 time whereas the Cage work is in a variety of time signatures, and they should specify which part of the piece they believe he has copied...

As far as I know the case didn't get to court- so possibly the work is now traditional?

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:43 AM

Could explain why Mike Batt music went out of business a few years ago...

LTS

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:49 AM

It's a bit of pretentious rubbish, on a par with the Hans Christian Anderson story about the King's New Clothes.
Giok

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:51 AM

This could tie in with the Lakeman controversy, as I recall that the BBC many years ago played a piece of silence recorded on Dartmoor. Now, if Seth Lakeman had heard that as a child, and played a version 4min33secs long on his next year...wait a minute, my brain is hurting.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional
From: Alec
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:59 AM

"...pretentious rubbish..."
John "Giok" MacKenzie
"Avante Garde is French for bullshit"
John Ono Lennon

I agree with John.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:22 AM

People who live in glass houses...

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional
From: Alec
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:26 AM

make really interesting neighbours.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 12:52 PM

What with the bagpipes and all...

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: Bee
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 01:14 PM

4 33 is what happens when pretentious musicians party with pretentious conceptual artists. The resulting works are neither edifying nor entertaining, and only serve to get one invited to the next pretentious art party. I know this, having attended a number of these parties in my ill-spent youth.

Folk musicians have a lot more fun.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 01:16 PM

The unplayable in pursuit of the inaudible?

Sorry Oscar ¦¬]

G

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 01:53 PM

well its alright for people who like listening to sounds,there is no such thing as pure silence,.the odd cough etc,but obvoiusly there is no story,no conveying of emotions ,the sort of thingthat is important in musical compositions.
however if it was used as a national anthem,4 33 of meditation before a football match for example,with a 100 thousand meditating together, might be pretty powerful.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: Songster Bob
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 02:05 PM

The closest I've come to performing a traditional version of 4 33 is when I and friends accompanied Dave Diamond on his "a cappella Blues" one time. My part consisted of doing the turnaround every verse (I turned my mandolin around, front to back to front, and on one verse did it twice -- a double-time turnaround, and hard to do properly, let me tell you).


"Folk musicians have a lot more fun." Especially when not playing their instruments, eh?


Bob

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 02:32 PM

I see your point Dick, but have you ever watched a crowd during the 2 minutes silence on Remembrance Day? You have to be very well disciplined to stay still and quiet for that amount of time... 4 minutes would just about kill some people!

LTS

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 02:43 PM

I remember a few years ago BBC Radio 3 had a request show for Red Nose Day and someone requested the John Cage 4'33" ... they just played a short extract.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: treewind
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 03:32 PM

If you want to undertand John Cage's status in 20th century music, you shouldn't so much listen to the music that he wrote as find out how many and how much other composers were influenced by his thoughts, ideas and innovations. He was an extremist who made a huge difference to the way many people think about music and deserves huge credit for that.

Anahata

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 03:42 PM

Before his time obviously!
G.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:28 PM

Classical or traditional? Depends on whether one considers the corresponding silence on the audience's part to be rapt attention or joining in the fun.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 06:59 PM

Silence is an empty space that can be defined with sounds. That's really what music is. 4'33" is about as simple an expression of that as you can get--

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 03:41 AM

Silence is a lack of sound, and no amount of dressing it up as intellectually elite, is going to change the fact that it is pretentious twaddle!
Giok

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: treewind
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 04:17 AM

Silence can also be an important part of music, and the point was worth making.

Also the background noise in a live performance is also part of the live music experience. John Cage's instructions are "no sound is intentionally made" (my italics) so in a live performance of 4:33 any squeaking chairs, coughing, sniffing and breathing noises made by a live audience are deemed part of the musical experience.

Anahata

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: treewind
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 04:21 AM

BTW in answer to the original question: obviously it depends on who's (not) playing it, how it's (not) played and what instruments it's (not) played on.

I wonder if I could claim arranger's royalties for a cello and concertina version? Porbably not, as Cage's score already says it's for any instruments or instruments.

Anahata

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 04:33 AM

pipers have an ornamentation called a pat,which is playing a silence.
when I play slow airs,as I do when I sing slow songs,I consciously play and sing silences.
perhaps the English national anthem should be one minutes silence for all the atrocities the English Establishment[not the English people] have committed over the years,[Sorry about thread drift].
it must be both classical and traditional,because the composer has given specific instructions,but every perfcormance will evolve and be different[does that make it trad],but not jazz because it is not being consciously altered.
Ithink Anahata has a point, if it makes people aware of the importance of silences in music, it acheives something,however because it cant convey passion and emotion, it is not very good music.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 04:42 AM

did John Cage, specify that people were not allowed to dance silently,in which it could ALSO be dance music.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 05:20 AM

It can only point out the importance of silence in music if it has something to counterpoint that silence.
Can you copyright the coughing and shuffling an audience makes in between completed pieces of music?
I think you'll find that you'd be laughed out of the patent office.
Sorry but in my book it's on a par with pickled sharks, piles of bricks, and lights going on and off in a random manner.
Giok

Proud to be a Philistine ¦¬]

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 10:02 AM

"Silence" is the product of the mind and will of an audience--we "create" it when    consciously focus our attention on a performance in order to hear it--4'33" puts the audience in that conscious
"listening" state of mind, and, without music, they hear the ambient sounds of the room in the same way that they'd hear a piece of music--it's a neat trick, and it really works--

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 10:17 AM

M.Ted - As I understand it - People who live in Glasshouses usually do their shopping in Pateley Bridge.
Quack!!
GtD.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 01:50 PM

But their post town is Harrowgate--your joke would have been lost on me, here in Maryland, were it not for Wikipedia--

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: Lucius
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 09:24 PM

I was in a college electronic studio a few years back, stuck on a composition for our required group recital. I ended up transcribing it for magnetic tape. That was thirty years ago, bit I'm still surprised over the lack of humor that some people have towards the piece.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 04:29 AM

Oh I find it funny Lucius,what I find appalling is the people who pontificate on the significance of this non musical confidence trick.
Bring back Gerard Hoffnung, now he was a musical humourist!

Giok

Tuning up his vacuum cleaner.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 04:32 AM

Its ideal dance music for people with two left feet.I believe the Morris ring dont mind, women morris dancers dancing to it,progress is being made.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 03:00 PM

You've elevated it from a pretentious fraud to a non-musical trick---you're coming along, Giok;-)

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 01:01 PM

Cage would probably have found the question rather funny.

   He was seeking to encourage people to a more active participation in their world, rather than being passive consumers.

   He was also encouraging us to listen at all times to the world musically,not just when "music" was on. That was after he sought total silence. He went into an anacoustic (I think?) room with more-or-less no echo. He could still hear 2 sounds. One turned out to be jis own nervous system, the other his own blood circulation (if I remember aright).

   He also had a different attitude to 'music'. When asked what music was,he said anything he heard when he assumed the attitude of a music listener - hence 4'33''.

   If we did the same thing,we'd find more of the world music-laden and interesting,rather than a bore we plod/rush through.

   He was doing what lots of artists are up to,which is to open our senses. That would make us more creative,less habit-bound.





       Ivor

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 01:31 PM

Nice to know you're paying attention M Ted ¦¬]
Must be difficult with all the ambient noise.

Giok

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 04:18 PM

Not to worry, Giok, I can multi-task.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 07:59 PM

"John Cage's instructions are "no sound is intentionally made" (my italics) so in a live performance of 4:33 any squeaking chairs, coughing, sniffing and breathing noises made by a live audience are deemed part of the musical experience."

I heard that one of the most interesting recorded permanences by Cage - and enjoyed by him - was when a couple of back stage workers in the wings talked the whole way thru about what a wanker Cage was....

:-)

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 08:04 AM

yes and isnt birdsong one of the most invigorating,and uplifting sounds.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 10:22 AM

Exactly,Cap'n.

BTW,talking of Cage enjoying the backstage chatter, when Mahler was conducting his 1st,and hit the explosion that starts the finale,he,the composer,was amused,not shocked,when the 'bang' made a lady in the front row noisily drop her bag.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:23 PM

>>You have to be very well disciplined to stay still and quiet for that amount of time... 4 minutes would just about kill some people!<<

But those are the ones that need killing.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:24 PM

>>Silence is a lack of sound, and no amount of dressing it up as intellectually elite, is going to change the fact that it is pretentious twaddle!<<

All music is pretentious twaddle so get your head out of your ass.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 06:00 PM

It is not silence. It is ambient music. ;-}

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 04:59 AM

ahem, ahem...


































































































































































































































Thank you!
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:08 AM

What no echo?

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:09 AM

They keep telling me that Ducks don't echo!
Or is that a load of old tripe too?
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:38 AM

'Giok'.






















































O.K.?





       Ivor

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:41 AM

Encore !

Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 02:29 PM

'Giok',sorry we have to dash to catch our train back to          .


LOL






      Ivor