So How DOES one Request A Gig ?

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 11:46 AM

Thanks Jim...

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 09:42 PM

Blue clicky's working fine.
http://www.myspace.com/bobryszkiewicz
Hey! You're one of my friends on Myspace!

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 09:07 PM

And sneak another 100th post !!

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 09:06 PM

I just say " I am a brilliant Musician and singer !! Book Me"

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:22 PM

Friends: Just so we keep to the thread here. New strategies may be required to get that gig. I suggest you start to use the incredible tools that are at your disposal. #1 The Internet. get Global. Try myspace/See Folk Roots/Folk Branches with Mike Regenstrief. MASSIVE connections there. I'm pretty sure you'll see names you know if you cruise there. Also, mp.3.com. In Canada we have the CBC and New Music Canada. Sadly restricted to Canadians. But you can work it to make some contacts. If you want to get a site going, all you need are a few mp3's and a photo. Myspace provides the "template" after the sign-up. you are given a "player" to post your songs, and a place for your photos...0 cost, other than your time. Now the strategy here is exposure.
Once you've created a presence, you align that with your own P.R. work to your local clubs and capitalize on any opportunity to play. The more they see you, the more chance you get to find that gig. #2Internet related. Podcasting. All you need is a computer and a microphone, and a little technical help. Now you have your own radio station...I think it's pretty obvious where I'm going with this. You have to have faith in yourself as an artist, and make it happen. #3 The Indie Bible. This is a publication that has done all of the contact work for you. Within you will find an unbelievable amount of info. all related to "getting the gig." Radio stations that will play your music. Magazines that will review it, etc. etc. You need to have "the eye of the tiger" so to speak, the drive. I believe the world will welcome talent with open arms. Personally, I've gotten my songs played in over 80 countries using these techniques. And radio stations have been asking me, if it's O.K. to
play my songs...but it's up to you to reach out. You have to "get off the couch" so to speak. There is no reason "Folk" cannot be thriving right where you are.
Better start to end this rather long, but hopefully helpful post.
Strings: Yes, the stretch factor is there. But it can be ameliorated. Try this: When you restring your guitar, take a pencil and rub it a bit in the nut where each string lies. Then, tune your guitar. Then lie the guitar on your lap and grab each string, one by one and pull up about 4 inches. Do this about 4-6 times per string and gently lower the string back down. Retune the guitar. Play some chords. Do the pull up thing one more time. Tune the guitar. (I've got all the fancy electric tuners, but for acoustic, I prefer a good old tuning fork). Take the tuning fork and strike it gently to get the A=440. Put the fork in your mouth which will produce a very loud A-440 by clenching it with your teeth. It then becomes easy using harmonics to get a very accurate tuning for your instrument. It should hold in tune a bit better.
Best of Luck with all of this. hope it helps. bob

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:54 PM

Don, that's exactly what I was trying to explain.

Yes, we have strategies for dealing with it, so it's not a problem - but it does have to be understood and dealt with, and life would be easier for both players and audiences if this simple matter of metallurgy was better appreciated all round.

I often see guitarists changing tunings between nearly every number, getting the guitar perfectly in tune, starting the song, then wondering why it sounds so bad a minute later.

Some people don't mind being slightly out of tune, but if you play like I do, almost classical style at times and well up the neck, with lots of of duplicated notes made on different strings, tuning is critical, and the temper of the instrument will make all the difference between a piece sounding wonderful and sounding just rubbish.

I try to detune right at the end of a song, then play another instrument while it relaxes, or do longish into, so when I pick it up again it's stable, and ready to go - or if I can't do that, I deliberately start the song with some strings either slightly sharp or flat so they'll come into tune during the piece - which will usually be much longer than the time the guitar takes to settle.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 03:39 PM

Well, if it works for you, Bob, more power to you (thanks for the beer, by the way, and back atcha—skål!).

Although I'm awe-struck by some of the latest theories in cosmology and I marvel at the consistency of physics (and even more at the apparent inconsistencies in quantum physics), I generally don't get emotional over well-established principles, such as Newton's Laws of Motion or the conversion of matter to energy. Once I figured out how long it would take to get to Alpha Centauri and back, assuming one was under power all the way, and could accelerate at a constant 1 g. for half the distance, turn the ship over, and decelerate at the same 1 g.—of course, factoring in time-dilation (very tricky!). [I had a science-fiction novel in mind, and one of these days, I'm going to get around to writing it.]

It's not a matter of slipping pegs, or the quality of the guitar's tuning pegs in general (although cheesy pegs can slip, but this isn't a problem with any of my guitars), it's what happens to the string itself. If you tighten a string and raise its pitch, it tends to creep back in the direction of its previous tension. This is at its most obvious when one puts new strings on a guitar. Steel strings "stretch in" faster than nylon strings, but if you let the guitar sit for awhile after first tuning it up to pitch, you'll note that you have to bring it up to pitch again. And this goes on for a couple of days until the strings finally stretch in and start holding their pitch fairly well (more often then not, of course, you still have to check the tuning and make some minor adjustments each time you pick the guitar up).

It also works in the other direction. If you release a bit of the tension, it will slowly try to crawl back up. Strange, but true.

You can check this yourself. Retune a string and check the new note with a good quality electronic tuner (preferably one with a needle and dial). Wait for a while. Then check the string with the tuner again. You will note that the string has crept back toward its former pitch. Now, it may not be badly out of tune. But it will be measurable. I guarantee it.

All materials exhibit this phenomenon in varying degrees. It's called "memory."

I'm not making this up.

Have a rainbow day! But do try the experiment. Have another beer while you're doing it—but not so many that you can't read the dial clearly.

Don Firth

P. S. Yeah! Just checked the web site. Interesting!
I really should have a web site myself. It's in the works.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 01:35 PM

Don: OOPS! Almost forgot. Don't want to be discourteous. Visit me on myspace:
http://www.myspace.com/bobryszkiewicz or Google: Bob Ryszkiewicz if the
blue clicky thing doesn't work...bob

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM

Don: Hearings great! Happy Weekend! Here's how a set might go...Usually I open a show with
a standard tuning. Do a few songs. Then I might do one with a drop-D tuning. That is, the 6th string or your bass E is lowered. Next song, pop it back up, takes a second or 2. Note: If the guitar you are using doesn't have QUALITY tuning pegs( 8 to 1's, 12 to 1's), you might have some problems doing this, as the audience usually starts turning into a rumbling mob if you aren't quick. Watch for the rope being passed through the crowd. Next choose another of the more complex tunings. Let's say a "G" and maybe do a blues with a slide. Ending the set with a another song with "G" tuning. Especially one that is fast where you've pushed the guitar to it's limits and you end the set with that. Then, you're in the dressing room wipin' her off, THE GUITAR guys, THE GUITAR, and tuning back up, getting ready for the next set. So, by planning, and thinking, I don't make the audience sit through boring minutes tuning and retuning. I set things up so there is a clean flow and balance between songs, jokes, stories, and tuning. After all, for, me the whole thing's a show. They hired me to entertain you. And hey, I make almost a living doing this, HA HA, actually, I'm doing fantastic, thanks God... I do this stuff with a steel string guitar, NOT a nylon string Classical. So Don, got my arm around your shoulder while I'm talkin' to ya. And my other hand is offering you a beer, Ya got to laughs me bucko,(my not half-bad pirate impression, you have to be there, I guess) I tells ya, life's a peach. And any 'O the time yo spent in anger is wasted....Everythin's gonna turn out O.K.! Smile! bob

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 07:27 AM

Thanks, Tom Bliss, for your offers of help for newcomers, and listening to your MP3 I'm sure you have no trouble in getting gigs. It was V good. Unlike some contributers to these threads you are someone who puts their money where their mouth is.
oh and yes that was me-geriatric cruises inc.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Mike Miller
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 12:49 AM

I have some experience in this area. When I moved to Ireland, there were a lot of folk clubs and I was, soon, working once or twice a week at Slatterey's on Capel St. I, later, found out that I had been reccomended to the manager by some of the musicians I had met at the Sunday sessions at O'Donague's. Working gave me a little money and enough exposure to get jobs ay other venues. It helped that I was American and, thus, different from other acts, but I never had to ask for a gig because I had been touted by well know, respected performers.
In Scotland, I did a wonderful three weeks tour, booked by folk DJ, Arthur Argo. He didn't know me from Adam but he had been called by Dr. Ken Goldstein (the great folklorist), who asked him to handle me.
It didn't hurt that Jean Redpath was staying with the Argos when I showed up. I had met and sung with Jeanie at the Fox Hollow Festival, that summer.
It is the same story in the USA. Bookers listen to people they admire or respect. They, often, listen to performers who do well in their venues. Ms Lemon says that a friend was able to get a booking in a club she would like to play. Here's what she should do, after her freind does the date, have the freind introduce and recomend her. This is the only, sure fire meathod I know for getting jobs.
It works on every level. Two years ago, I was visiting a freind in a rehab hospital. I saw, on the bulletin board, that a pianist, with whom I am familiar, was performing for the residents, that day. I stopped off to say hello and he took me to the activity director and told her how good I was with that kind of audience. Six months later, the activity director called and hired me for a performance. She hired me back, this year, too. Once again, it was personal reccomendation that started the ball rolling.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 11:02 PM

Well, Bob, now that we've established our credentials, first, I challenge the idea, or at least the implication, that someone with classical training is trained only to interpret written music. Good teachers and good music schools place no such limitations. I know that there are some who seem to be afraid to go beyond what's in the written music, but there are many who use that as the starting point, not the boundary. As for myself, I had been playing and singing for a number of years before I started musical training. I found that rather than restricting me with a lot of rules as some of my folkie friends warned me it would, it opened up possibilities that I (and said folkie friends) would never have known existed. The training freed me to explore. Although I can interpret a score quite well—and learn songs from song books when a lot of my folk singing confreres cannot—once learned, I set the music aside and go from there. I am no slave to the lines and dots, nor are most of the well-trained musicians I know.

Within my experience, I have not very often seen a folk guitarist who used special tunings—and I've seen a lot of them, professional and amateur—using only one guitar and re-tuning it, who didn't have to ride herd pretty constantly on his tuning pegs, and usually by the time he finished a song, the guitar had managed to creep noticeably out of tune. Not badly, perhaps. But noticeably.

Problem:   you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with the world of physics. Such matters as tensile strength and elasticity.

Now, I don't mean to be a smart-ass here, but have you had a hearing tested lately?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:40 PM

One does not request a gig---ever!

They come to you and ask you to play their venue.

Art

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:30 PM

Hi Jim: Congradulations on the new little one. My mind is a calm, quite lake over here...
Maybe being with her will bring out the kid in you and you'll sing her a song or two. Give her a hug from me. I bid you Peace...
bob

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:20 PM

Bob: Don't be getting all frustrated on me here. Just offering my opinion. I don't come close to Don in experience or capability but I'll give you a rough idea of where I'm coming from. I've played since 1979 and took a clean 4 or 5 year break in the late eighties/early nineties to spend time with my children. I'm on another break now to spend time with my new daughter and will get back into things, next year. In the meantime, the phone rings about once a month and I play just enough to keep the rust off.
Between Don & Yourself, you have pretty well said all there is about tuning. My only input would have to be... I'm glad that you are impressed by those musicians. I'm sure that they deserve your admiration   
but I wouldn't hire them or sit through a tuning session.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:05 PM

Don: Been there. done that. All I know is what I can do. I've been with high level Classically trained players and while I know the techniques and the strict training are admirable, and the music produced is so beautiful, I felt a bit of sadness at the lack of improvisation which just does not play that well in a Classical setting. You are trained to interpret written music. And I have experienced hours of training just showing me how I'm supposed to attack the string at a particular angle, and the constant repetition to get perfect tone, etc., with just one finger..etc., etc. I had the opportunity to play with a very high level Classical/Flamenco player(better leave the name out here) at a function where I suggested that we improvise a particular portion of the piece, just for experimentation and fun and got looked at with that "RCA Dog" look. Nope, he ain't gonna be listening to MY ideas...Your word "adamant" comes to mind here. Andres Segovia was known for his strict adherence to form and with that he produced music that will live forever. But to talk to him about "open tunings?" Would be like trying to talk the Pope out of his stand on birth control. He has to toe the "party line" so to speak. My Dad used to ask me when I would close the refrigerator door, " how do you know if the light inside the fridge went off?" LOL. I guess with some things you have to have that   
element of trust.
Oh, I've got to tell you this story. I worked for Polygram records during the era of Saturday Night Fever, Village People, Eric Clapton, etc. and worked with Vas Polakis, Head of Classical A&R. So one time Neville Marriner(St. Martin in the Fields) was in town to give a concert Place des Arts and I was given the task, delighted of course, to act as the A&R Rep for the company, attend the show, and make sure Mr. Marriner and his entourage were looked after. So they did the whole thing with the black tails and bowties and all and the break comes up so I go backstage to find them in a near empty dressing room around a small table. I look and they have two water glasses on which there are two forks stuck together and they are playing a game where they are whacking the forks with their fingers, sending them high in the air, trying to land the things in each other's glass. Well, I nearly fell on the floor. "Is that what you guys DO during the breaks?" "I thought you would be discussing the next score or quietly relaxing on a couch..." They tell me , "No, we already know the score..." "We just need to relax" HA HA HA HA...
So, Don, don't assume that you know how much others know and have experienced...
p.s. Is the lightbulb OFF over there?
And RELAX, my friend, there are people on the earth who have no problem with multiple tunings and staying in tune. you just haven't met them...
bob

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 07:49 PM

Well, I'm not going to argue the point anymore, Bob. Nor am I going to back off on what I wrote above. Both Jim and I are professionals. I don't know how long Jim has been at it, but considering how good he is, I'd say he's been at it for quite a while. As for myself, I have some 55 years of professional musical experience behind me, along with some three years in the University of Washington School of Music and another two years at the Cornish School of the Arts (a consevatory).

As to being "oblivious to that which is around you," I was not sleeping during those 55 years. My remarks about tuning have to do with both the principles of physics, and the experience of both myself and other musicians with stretched strings on a whole variety of instruments (including both steel and nylon guitar strings) and what they do when the tension they are used to is changed. A string's "memory" and it's tendency to try to resume its former tension is a well-known phenomenon among string players. This is one of many reasons why classical musicians, for example, are adamant about tuning their instruments to concert pitch (440-A) and keeping them there.

And yes, I'm familiar with Roy Clark, Buck Owens, Tom Rush, and probably a whole lot of other well-known and not so well-known musicians who use different tunings--and I note that most of the professionals I have seen, both in person and on television, have a whole arsenal of guitars sitting on stands behind them, all tuned to the tuning they want and ready to go. One guitar gets put down and another gets picked up. I have also sat through the tuning throes of a number of musicians who use special tunings and who only have one guitar, and it ain't pretty!

Please, Bob, don't assume that you know how much others know and have experienced.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 06:01 PM

Sorry Don and Jim: The 9 different guitars and "they 'll creep back to where they were before" referring to the string tuning just isn't true, and this type of misinformation will tend to confuse any of the younger players reading this. Like anything else, Professionals who work with tunings all the time don't have these problems as the use of various tunings is a SKILL that can be developed. What astounds me about all of this is how you can be that oblivious
to that which is around you? In fact, although you may not want to acknowledge/realize it, there are players who are capable of tuning WHILE PLAYING A SONG! It's part of the show for some Nashville session guys and I've used it during many shows as a trick for the audience. Have you ever heard of Roy Clark?(Buck Owens/Hee-Haw) Tom Rush made a CAREER with open tunings. If you think I'm making this up, start checking this stuff out, and don't be like the blind men each holding a different part of the elephant, and one says it's like a snake, the next says it's like a tree, the other like a vine...you know the story, I hope. The world is a BIG place. See some of it. And remember, Uncle Bob loves ya. But WOW...bob

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 05:05 PM

Tuning:
I use pretty good quality guitars:   one hand-made Japanese classic, one Spanish-made flamenco (Arcangel Fernandez), and a small travel guitar made by Sam Radding in San Diego (which I do use for gigs, because it sounds good, it's easy to pack around, and people sometimes ask me if it's a "period instrument" of some kind). They're all nylon-string instruments. I tune them to concert pitch (440-A) with either a tuning fork or an Intellitouch clamp-on tuner. I keep them at concert pitch, standard guitar tuning (EADGBE), and I don't use special tunings. Once or twice during a performance I may have to adjust a string or two, but it doesn't take more than a few seconds, so no problem.

Sure, you can get some interesting stuff with special tunings, but strings have a "memory," and if you keep cranking them up and down all the time, they'll try to creep back to where they were before you retuned them—while you're in the middle of the song you retuned for. That's the nature of the beast. Jim's right. If you want to use nine different tunings, you'd better have nine different guitars, unless you want to spend half your life cranking on tuning pegs.

Getting gigs:
I'm a bit fuzzy about how things are these days, but I found that most of the gigs I got way back in the days of antiquity came from non-folkie sources. I sang at parties and "hoots" in private homes and such, for fun, not looking for gigs, and the first major break-through gig I got came from a jazz musician whom I knew pretty well and who had heard me at several of these informal gatherings. His day job was as a public relations man for the Seattle Public Library, and one of this duties was to plan programs for KCTS-TV, the local educational channel (now, a PBS affiliate), to be tied in with materials available at the library and funded by the library. He asked me to do a television series on folk music. I didn't think I was anywhere near "ready for prime time," but he wouldn't take no for an answer.

After that, gigs came pretty easily. But even so, most of them came as a result of friends going into some place that offered entertainment and saying to the owner, "I know this singer. . . ." And someplace in the course of the conversation, being able to say, "Well, he's done a television series on KCTS." So I may have just been some dork off the street—but—I was a dork with "credits."

So, get some credits, even if you have to make the arrangements yourself. Stock method for a lot of classical artists was (and may still be) to rent Carnegie Hall (yes, you have to pay for it yourself, unless you have a rich "angel"), advertise the event, do a recital, and pray for good reviews. Unless it was a total disaster, you then have a Carnegie Hall concert on your credit list. It doesn't have to be Carnegie Hall, of course, but. . . .    What venue (theater, concert hall, not specifially a "folk venue") is there where you live that most people, including non-folkies, would recognize as fairly prestigious?

And friends who are willing to brag you up to potential employers are a treasure, a boon, and a blessing!

And—sometimes someone will come up to you after you've just done a gig and want to hire you. I got several of my bigger gigs—full concerts—that way.

Nothing succeeds like success.

{But sometimes it helps to prime the pump a bit)

Don Firth

P. S.   Also—beware of the person who wants to "hire" you to sing for nothing, but tells you "It will be good exposure." This can be true up to a point, but remember the following:

People have been known to die of exposure!
                                       —Dave Van Ronk

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 04:06 PM

For me, most of the time the gigs came from "Hoots" or "Open-Mike" nights...Word gets around pretty quick if you do a good show. Then they ask you. or, you set up a tour with phone calls or your agent. Or, you ask. Other musicians will speak up for you. I got my start in Canada after flying in from the U.S. and did a "Hoot" in 1967, or thereabouts, at the Yellow Door Coffeehouse in Montreal, where I got seen by "Canada's First Lady of Folk," Penny Lang, who said to John Foley, the manager, "you should give this guy a gig." Then, things took off from there on in...
As far as the tuning thing goes, I personally use about 6 different tunings during a set. The installation of 8 to 1 Grovers facilitated a "quick change" accuracy. Tunings are: Standard, G-tuning, D-tuning, double-D tuning, C-Tuning, E-Tuning. I started doing this after seeing the great Tom Rush do "Panama Limited" on slide. John Hammond does this, as well as countless
bluesmen...Check out Joni Mitchell and Peter Green as well. It requires being able to hear(pitch), and comes with practice. Just like learning a new song. A lot can be done with the acoustic guitar. give a listen to Michael Hedges recordings...See you later...bob

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 02:38 PM

Eat well, Tom: I'm a lousy musician. That statement goes unchallenged. You can take my word for it.
Like you, I carry at least three instruments to every gig and like any other musician, am capable of tuning up if I have to but I don't. I simply switch instruments and take care of them during the break.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 01:46 PM

Well yes, the thread is about gigs but there's been a lot of talk about tuning too - and until Mr Spam decided to add a little spice to the discussion the thead was in deep sleep.

So apologies for drift but if people think tuning is something that will lead to people walking out of a show then perhaps it really is relevant.

A lot of writers ( won't name names if that's uncool, but I do reccommend you google the above, they are all seriously good players) use different tunings to create different tonal landscapes - as indeed MC does. I have, in the past, carried three guitars around, to minimise re-tuning, but as I play other instruments too I now prefer to use one, and try to tune quickly and efficiently, while chatting and telling engaging stories to divert the audience. That's what most of us do.

This is me incidentally Tom Bliss

Oh and as you can see above I have offered advice of gig-getting too (in fact I make a habit of helping new starters in any way I can).

Off to sing for my supper now

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 01:10 PM

Tom Bliss: Here's the thread title "So How DOES one Request A Gig ?".
Now, I'm sure you know a lot about guitars and you certainly mentioned lots of names (I've never heard of any of them) and I would not dream of getting between a musician and her/his instrument ..... However, what you have just described is how not to get a gig. Never, never, never change the guitar tuning during your performance. Pack enough gear to handle your show. Trust me on this. I don't know you and you are probably great (I'll check out your link) but I swear, as soon as any performer decides to change the tuning, I walk out.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:26 PM

I don't think we've met, WS if this is you... Warwick Slade

Yes, many guitarists do manage very well with little tuning, but this is usually because they are working alone so have no need to maintain conert pitch, or because they keep their strings in the same tuning, or never capo very far up the neck. But if you are not in this category, as a lot of folkies are, then tuning is a necessary evil, specially if you want to sing in tune over the top.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Warwick Slade
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 11:03 AM

I am sorry but I cannot agree with Tom Bliss (do I know you?) Many of the very top flight guitarist (no need to name drop) manage to play long sets without the need to tinker with their machine heads. It is interesting to note that only certain people constantly need to do this. Martin Carthy (God bless him) is a great guitarist and we would all like to emulate his music but even he is aware that the constant retuning gets up peoples noses in a big way.
I am afraid the the long, and rather boring lecture on how a guitar gets out of tune cuts no ice and detracts from the joy of making music. GET A LIFE AND GET A GIG.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 08:23 AM

Jim Lad said (before we were so kindly advised where to find some dubious thrills)

["You simply HAVE to tune on stage, all the time. People should be educated to understand that." Nope. Sorry. If you can't play the instrument without knocking it out of tune, you need a better instrument.]

I was actually the guest to whom he was replying (sorry, I must have forgotten to put my name).

Actually, Jim you are the one who is mistaken here. I play two top-end Martins and the others are all very good quality hand-made instruments (by David Oddy amongst others).

This has nothing whatsoever to do with knocking an instrument out of tune. It's to do with the physics of a vibrating string, the changes that take place within a wire when you relax or increase the tension, the effect of temperature and humidity on wood, the natural bendability of wood, and above all the compromises that have to be made to permit fixed fret positioning on instruments such as guitars.

You watch any top guitarist, from Ed Boyd to Vin Garbutt to Chris Newman to - yes - Martin Carthy, they retune constantly - because they HAVE to. And when they tuning to, say, Drop D, they have to keep retuning the whole guitar for a while before they can proceed.

Why? Well, if you drop the pitch of a string by one tone, it is a scientific inevitability that the metal in the string will 'spring back' slighly over the period of about one minute, to raise the pitch again by about half a semi-tone. So if you tune the string perfectly and then begin your song, it will go out of tune about half way through the first chorus.

And as the string relaxes, so the wood of the neck will bend in on that side. It's only a fraction of a mm, but it's enough to put all the other strings slightly out.

If you change two strings the effect will be greater (which is why I for one only ever retune one string at a time - carefully migrating from Standard to DADGAD and beyond through my set).

Then there are the issues of capo positioning. Both my Martins have perfect intonation. When I fret with my fingers the instruments are in tune right up to the very top fret. But capos - whichever make, they'll all do it once they're tight enough for use - pull the strings in tighter to the fretboard than any finger can. This always puts the whole instrument sharp by about 5% per fret.

So if you capo up - and need to stay at concert pitch - because you're playing with others, you must retune. Same when you take the capo off or move it down.

And you have to revisit each string more than once, because they are all changing in pitch by themselves, and the neck is constantly twisting as a result.

Now you may think it doesn't matter if the instrument is not perfectly balanced, and you may be right. Certainly one can become unhealthily obsessed with tuning. But when I say that a badly tuned instrument doesn't ring properly I'm not just referring to it sounding out of tune to the audience, or even to the guitarist.

I'm talking about its temper: The way the overtones vibrate against eachother. If you get this right the guitar suddenly comes alive in your hands, and playing becomes easier and a lot more fun. If the temper is out of sorts you can still play all the same notes, but it's hard work and the magic simply can't happen.

You must have noticed this yourself in your own playing.

I'm all for telling people that tuning is more complicated than it looks (and sounds), and generally educating people about it, as it really is worth making the effort to get it right - and to go on making the effort thoughout the gig.

Most people think a musician is just being incompetant if he can't seem to tune all his strings with one tweak to each, and that's a shame, because it's not easy to achieve good temper - specially while entertaining an audience - and it would be nice if people like Martin Carthy got the credit for taking the trouble to do it well.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Gypsy
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:18 PM

Better late than never. Couple of things........find events that you feel need your music, then manifest it. Accept (and seek!) bookings as far away as a year in advance.....time flies. Do freebies where it will benefit you, or where you just feel you should do it cuz it is right. Yes, having your own event helps, we cofounded a contra dance. ALWAYS have business cards. Our answering machine has the band advert on it, before our names. So does my car. And baseball cap. THANK every benefactor who has ever hired you, and enclose a business card. Mail this thanks, don't do it verbally. Hand address the envelope, and don't use a business size.
We are a little band, but solidly booked 6 months out of the year, every weekend. I collapse in november, then start lining out the year in january. We are just about full for season at this point.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 03:16 PM

"Are your excellent, top-of-the range instruments always in tune, without messing about between songs?"

Yes! (but never my banjo, not sure if that's an instrument)

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Fidjit
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 03:09 PM

Where he worked

Even this man asked for work !

Chas

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 03:07 PM

1000 songs- ye GODS!!! I can barely remember my own!

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 02:50 PM

"You simply HAVE to tune on stage, all the time. People should be educated to understand that."

Nope. Sorry. If you can't play the instrument without knocking it out of tune, you need a better instrument.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Fidjit
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 01:31 PM

says what they want

You have to find the bit about performers via Festival policy's

Chas

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:58 AM

Simply playing a guitar at gigging volume (even finger-picking) will put it out of tune - no matter how well-made it is. Using or moving a capy will do so too, and if you change the pitch of just one string the neck will twist slightly and put the others out. Then there's changes in termperature and humidity. Plus you can only tune a guitar accurately to one chord. As soon as you finger another chort it will be slightly out. Tuning is always a compromise, so sometimes just needing to play in first position, standard, in a different key, will require a slight ajustment.

You simply HAVE to tune on stage, all the time. People should be educated to understand that.

An out of tune instrument - even if ever so slightly out - simply does not work. It won't ring properly.

You'll never get a chance find out how long you guitar will stay in tune on its own if you're using it properly.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:46 AM

... but it was in tune when I bought it...

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 08:08 AM

Yes, I'm aware that a good quality instrument is likely to stay in tune longer than a cheapo one. But they still need tuning from time to time, during a long set. It depends how you play it though.

Tuning on stage is a necessary evil, IMO. I've seen artists who don't bother to retune during their act, maybe because they don't want to waste time, with the result that they play out of tune, which offends my ears. I'd rather they spent a short time retuning than listen to a cacophony (accent on 'short'!)

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:19 PM

Scrump, my guitar stays in tune an unbelievably long time. Yes, it's a Taylor 810.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:55 PM

Thanks Ted: That's my take on it too. Just wondered if that's what you meant.
Regards
Jim

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:52 PM

Holiday Day Inn jobs pay well, but they aren't particularly satisfying, aesthetically--

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:08 PM

I'd have been cheaper hiring a doctor!

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 06:05 PM

I bet they got paid more for an hour's work than most of us do, too ...

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 06:01 PM

Just call and ask. You do not have to jump through hoops for anyone, just to find work. Had my gutters cleaned recently and didn't ask them for a DVD/Video of one of their past performances. Turns out, they had a ladder and knew how to get up there just like they promised.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:55 PM

There's a catch-22 here. They won't want to see you if they don't know you and they can't know you if they don't get to see you.

Solution: Create your own gigs and start small. House concerts. Find a friend with a large enough space or make one yourself.

Libraries, museums and schools are a good contact if you know someone there.

Play various places...even volunteer sometimes...because they will see you and maybe hire you later. (Don't overexpose self for freebees, however).

Start promoting yourself with people you already know. Play parties (birthday, theme etc.)
Don't overprice yourself.

Keep working at your craft. Sometimes in that process, contacts are made through your teachers, and other support-networks.

At first, don't bother with coffee-houses, restaurants or clubs. The first are too crowded and you generally will not show up well because there are time restrictions and often erratic time-slots. Restaurants generally can't afford you today. Clubs are the worst.
Alcohol and attention to folk music doesn't work well.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: oggie
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:19 PM

"Trying to figure out whether that was tongue in cheek or if Holiday Inn is something worth aiming for?"

Work is work, money is money, bills have to be paid. In all seriousness work out what you're trying to do and them aim for it. If you want to be be an "artiste" that's one route and one set of venues, if you're a jobbing musician with bills to pay that's another set. From my perspective, if I'm offered my fee then so long as it's not illegal I'll do it (one greedy bank manager to support)

All the best

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Scrump
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 06:11 AM

Are your excellent, top-of-the range instruments always in tune, without messing about between songs?

Does such a guitar exist? I've never managed to find one. But if you do, then please let me know and I'll buy one.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 04:05 PM

M.Ted: Trying to figure out whether that was tongue in cheek or if Holiday Inn is something worth aiming for? Just curious.
Jim

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 12:57 PM

If you fill Greycap's bill, you'll be able to find work in the lounge at any Holiday Inn, anywhere in the world.;-)

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:39 PM

Are you, and your fellow musicians, really good?
Does your outfit know and perform at least 1000 songs or instrumentals that will fit any situation?
Are your excellent, top-of-the range instruments always in tune, without messing about between songs?
Do you have a p.a system that really works?
Is your transport reliable?
Do you have a good reputation for reliablity?
Go figure and think this one out.
think about it......

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 05:55 PM

Also know your targets! One club I represent has a Festival once a year with one main concert, so there will be one headline act and one support act, plus we put on a mid-year concert, and monthly sessions. The rest of the Festival weekend is filled with ceilidh, Open Stage, workshops and other events. So what I'm saying is the chance of appearing as a paid artiste are fairly low in this set-up.
But another club I go to has a different act and floor spots every single week from September to June, so there's maybe more chance of appearing there if you're any good.
So target those places that have more employment opportunities.

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 02:12 PM

It's time to start thinking outside the box--

One idea which worked very well for my old folkdance band is simply to find a nice inexpensive or free space and have your own event--you've been performing for four years, so you must have a number of fans and friends around--get a space that isn't big enough to hold them all(fifty in a space for a hundred is a failure, fifty in a space for thirty is a "Standing Room Only" success!)

If you can't fill the hall yourselves, invite another group that you know, or a couple of individuals, and, just to sweeten the pot a bit, make it something special, like "Eve of St. Agnes Dance Party" or "Tribute to Disfunctional Families" or raffle off a car for a bogus charity;-)

Anyway, you get the idea--and, if it works out, give yourselves a regular booking--

Subject: RE: So How DOES one Request A Gig ?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 03:50 PM

oh it's ok now.

sal