Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers

Peter Kasin 26 Feb 07 - 04:57 AM
patriot1314 26 Feb 07 - 07:11 AM
alanabit 26 Feb 07 - 07:53 AM
GUEST,meself 26 Feb 07 - 08:02 AM
mandotim 26 Feb 07 - 08:28 AM
Deckman 26 Feb 07 - 09:04 AM
Rapparee 26 Feb 07 - 09:12 AM
Deckman 26 Feb 07 - 09:20 AM
kendall 26 Feb 07 - 09:29 AM
Deckman 26 Feb 07 - 09:41 AM
kendall 26 Feb 07 - 09:49 AM
Deckman 26 Feb 07 - 10:06 AM
Scoville 26 Feb 07 - 10:25 AM
Rapparee 26 Feb 07 - 12:29 PM
Schantieman 26 Feb 07 - 12:34 PM
Little Hawk 26 Feb 07 - 01:04 PM
Rabbi-Sol 26 Feb 07 - 01:06 PM
alanabit 26 Feb 07 - 01:31 PM
Deckman 26 Feb 07 - 02:35 PM
Rabbi-Sol 26 Feb 07 - 02:42 PM
catspaw49 26 Feb 07 - 02:50 PM
kendall 26 Feb 07 - 02:53 PM
Blindlemonsteve 26 Feb 07 - 03:13 PM
Rabbi-Sol 26 Feb 07 - 03:15 PM
Jim Lad 26 Feb 07 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,meself 26 Feb 07 - 03:22 PM
Peter Kasin 26 Feb 07 - 04:05 PM
kendall 26 Feb 07 - 05:00 PM
pdq 26 Feb 07 - 05:08 PM
Becca72 26 Feb 07 - 05:36 PM
Peter Kasin 26 Feb 07 - 06:55 PM
Rabbi-Sol 26 Feb 07 - 07:17 PM
kendall 26 Feb 07 - 07:18 PM
Riginslinger 26 Feb 07 - 07:38 PM
Rabbi-Sol 26 Feb 07 - 07:50 PM
GUEST,dax 26 Feb 07 - 07:57 PM
Riginslinger 27 Feb 07 - 12:02 AM
mandotim 27 Feb 07 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,ib48 27 Feb 07 - 06:19 AM
clueless don 27 Feb 07 - 09:31 AM
kendall 27 Feb 07 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,meself 27 Feb 07 - 10:12 AM
Little Hawk 27 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM
Lonesome EJ 27 Feb 07 - 12:41 PM
gnu 27 Feb 07 - 03:59 PM
kendall 28 Feb 07 - 07:44 AM
3refs 28 Feb 07 - 09:22 AM
3refs 28 Feb 07 - 09:25 AM
kendall 28 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM
Deckman 28 Feb 07 - 10:17 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 04:57 AM

This thread is inspired by the worst boxers thread, as that one has shown that there are more than a few Mudcat boxing fans.
Speculating on who would have beaten who is the stuff of boxing fans, and, though we'll never really know for sure, it still makes for interesting discussion. So, what's your heavyweight ranking? Here's mine, for whatever it's worth.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Sonny Liston
7. Sam Langford
8. Jim Jeffries
9. George Foreman
10. Mike Tyson
11. Larry Holmes
12. Joe Frazier


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: patriot1314
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:11 AM

Wouldn't argue with the selection, maybe I would shuffle the order round a bit.
I agree with the number one, but a man who retired undefeated is only 5th.
not only undefeated, but in the "golden age" of boxing too


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: alanabit
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:53 AM

We never saw Jack Johnson, but by all accounts he was pretty awesome. I think I shall have to go and look up his record. It is unlikely that enough information will emerge to compare him with later boxers, but we can be sure that he was one of the best ever. Larry Holmes certainly deserves to be on that list.
I am a little baffled as to why Mike Tyson deserves to be on it, whereas Lennox Lewis, who thrashed him, does not. For sheer guts and mental strength, Evander Holyfield must have a good case too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 08:02 AM

There are - or were - some clips of Jack Johnson fights on Youtube. Even on those old grainy newsreels you can see that he was a remarkable slugger.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: mandotim
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 08:28 AM

Because of politics, he never turned pro; but I wonder where Teofilio Stevenson would feature on that list if he had? This great Cuban amateur was the most devastating puncher I ever saw.
Tim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 09:04 AM

I would add my brother to your list, but he never went "pro." He just pounded the bejeezus out of me whenever he could find me! Bob(deckman)Nelson


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 09:12 AM

Hey, my brother did too! Now that he's old and weak I'd get my own licks in, but I'm old and weak now too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 09:20 AM

Let's trade brothers ... at least for a fun weekend!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 09:29 AM

It depends on what you think is important
Longevity, power, skill how mant good opponents, etc.

For length of career,
1. Joe Louis almost 12 years
2. John L. Sullivan 10 years with bare fists.
2. Larry Holmes 7 years
3 Archie Moore more knockouts than any boxer in history.

Skill:
1.M. Ali
2.Floyd Patterson
3Larry Holmes. best jab ever
4.Jimmy Young master boxer, taught Ali a thing or two.
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Lennox Lewis
7. Evander Holyfield I don't know where to put Jack Johnson, but he surely does belong on this list.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 09:41 AM

I well remember my Father and I listening to a radio broadcast of an Ezzard Charles fight. I can't remember his opponent, but I think he won the championship that night. Does anyone remember who he fought? Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 09:49 AM

Joe Louis, past his prime.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 10:06 AM

I thought so ... but I wasn't sure. That probably was about 49 or 50? Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Scoville
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 10:25 AM

Has anyone else seen the PBS program on Jack Johnson? It's amazing. Fantastic old film footage. KUHT, our local PBS, is showing the second half tonight.

I don't know anything about boxing, but I know I would not have wanted to be in the ring with that dude. Yikes.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 12:29 PM

Tom Spring
Bill Richmond
Tom Molyneaux
Yankee Sullivan
Tom Hyer
John L. Sullivan
Ben Caunt
Tom Cribb
Dustin Karol
Lenny McLean
Tom Sayers
Roy Shaw
William 'Bendigo' Thompson
Kimbo Slice

Put 'em in any order you want.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Schantieman
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 12:34 PM

Ali

No-one else close.

S


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 01:04 PM

I've always been a big fan of Marciano. For greatest of all time I would pick either him...or Ali in his prime.

But it's not a very well informed opinion, because my knowledge of boxing is quite limited.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 01:06 PM

Considering ALL the weight division, not only heavyweight. Can we have a list of all the 10 best fighters pound for pound ? I am sure that Sugar Ray Robinson and Roberto Duran would rank pretty high.

                                              SOL ZELLER


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: alanabit
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 01:31 PM

For sheer skill, I think Sugar Ray Leonard would be on most people's list. He wasn't a bad puncher either. He belongs on another list with Sol's best "pound for pund" fighters though.
Lennox Lewis's foolishnes, in failing to train properly for two of his bouts, meant that he lost his unbeaten record. However, when he finally retired, he had beaten every man, who had ever entered the ring with him. Both of his rematches were mismatches. He also improved as a finisher in the course of his career. I would have to look at footage of the fights to decide whether he or Larry Holmes had the better jab. It would take some figuring out even then. I would not fancy a clout round the ear from either of them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 02:35 PM

In his day, Harry Kid Matthews was a real power. I forget his weight division, perhaps middle weight or light heavy. Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 02:42 PM

I have a reel to reel tape recording that I made off the radio of the second Paterson-Johansen fight, in which Paterson regained his title.
There were 6 or seven knockdowns in the space of 2 rounds. It was the first time ever that an ex heavyweight champ ever regained his title. I have been looking to sell this tape to a collector but have not yet found any takers.

                                                   SOL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 02:50 PM

Try spelling his name right Sol....LOL....He ain't a dump in Jersey, his name is Patterson.

Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 02:53 PM

Jack Johnson was called the best defensive fighter of all time.


other weight divisions,

Ray Robinson, often called the best pound for pound ever.
Roberto Duran
Willy Pep
Billy Conn
Ray Leonard
Carmen Basillio


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 03:13 PM

i know this is a really silly one, but for me a true champion was Frank Bruno, when he won his title from Oliver McCall, he said that he never said he was the fastest, never said he was the best, but he believed in himself that one day he would win a title, he just kept going until he did, he had the heart of a champion if not the ability, and i think that is what is most important. And Lennox Lewis was a very lucky bunny not to get knocked out in the 7th by our Frank, and he seriously gave Tyson a first round kicking in theyre first match.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 03:15 PM

What about Thomas Hearns who fought in every division from welterweight to light-heavyweight ?
                                             SOL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Jim Lad
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 03:21 PM

Casius Clay!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 03:22 PM

Ernest Hemingway. At least, he seemed to think he was right up there with the best of them.

Of course, Morley Callaghan cleaned his clock pretty good.

(And Joe Louis, stopping his fist an inch from Papa's nose, advised him, "Stick to writing").


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 04:05 PM

Great list of 19th century champs, Rapaire, but how about Daniel Mendoza? He put some science into boxing. Today he would be considered a middleweight, but there were no weight class distincrions when he fought., so he did fight against those that would today be heavyweights.

Tyson is on my list because in his prime, 1986-89, he was awesome. The manner in which he completely dominated his opponents puts him on there. He was way, way past his prime when he was knocked out by Lennox Lewis. When he fought Buster Douglas he was by that time under new management and trainers, and was, by all accounts, not well-managed. It's as if he had forgotten all the good training and technique that earlier mgmt taught him.

I'm also a big fan of Marciano, but just want to note that the 1950's is generaly regarded as anything but the golden age of boxing. it was considered one of the less talent-laden decades. This is no rap on Marciano, though. Maybe he could've beaten Dempsey and others above him on my list, we'll never know.

With my list, and anyone's top list, with such great boxers, who's to say that Foreman might not have creamed Marciano, or that Dempsey might not have gotten some early licks into Joe Louis that would have kayoed him, and on another night Louis done the same to Dempsey? There are so many variables, any list should be taken with a grain of salt. Sometimes there's the matter of one boxer's style being a weak point against some opponenrts, and a strong point against others. But I think lists are good for speculating based on different variables. We'll just never know for sure. I'm glad you all are responding and opening discussion on great boxers. Let's keep it going.

Pound for pound, I'd put Roy Jones, Jr. somewhere up there, but probably Sugar Ray Robinson at the top.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 05:00 PM

The thing to keep in mind is the fact that on any given night, any heavyweight can knock out any other heavyweight. The problem is getting a clear shot at that "Sweet spot", and the pros guard that spot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: pdq
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 05:08 PM

It would be interesting to know how Teofilo Stevenson would have rated as a professional. He won the Olympic gold medal as a heavyweight in 1972. George Foreman won it in 1968. Joe Frasier in 1964. That was a pretty good run, maybe three of the Top 10 all-time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Becca72
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 05:36 PM

My personal favorite is Lennox Lewis.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:55 PM

Stevenson was awesome. He also won the Olympic gold medal at the '76 and '80 games. Some boxing experts think he might have become champion if he turned pro, and certainly would have been a top contender.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:17 PM

But Fidel never gave him the chance to prove it.

                                              SOL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:18 PM

There was a lot of complaining that Stevenson was a professional being subsidized by the Cuban government and all. Talk was that boxing is all he did while the government supported him.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:38 PM

The Middleweights of the 1950's.

Jake Lamada
Sugar Ray Robinson
Gene Fulmer
Bobo Olson

          I think there were a couple more.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:50 PM

It is spelled LaMotta. Jake LaMotta was known as The Raging Bull and a movie was made about him starring Robert DiNero.

                                                      SOL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:57 PM

Teofilio Stevenson at one time was supposed to fight Ali but it never came about. He would rate high though.
Dempsy and Marciano were both small by todays heavyweight standard and Archie Moore was a ligt-heavy but it ain't so much the size of the dog in the fight as the size of the fight in the dog.
Sam Langford may have been the best ever pound for pound as he was at best a middleweight soaking wet, yet fought and won against the worlds best heavies. Nobody would give him a title fight due partly to fear and largly to racism.
http://www.iabpff.org/regions/site/sam1.html
Liston should not be on the list as he was a Mafia patsy with a string of fixed fights.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 12:02 AM

You're right, it was LaMotta. I thought that looked funny.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: mandotim
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 05:26 AM

The reason I raised the issue of Stevenson was on the basis of one punch that sticks in my memory. He fought (I think) an Eastern European heavyweight, a huge hulk of a man in the early rounds of the Olympics; in the first round Stevenson hit him so hard he was lifted clean off his feet and deposited on his back, out cold. The punch was an orthodox left jab. He would certainly have threatened any of his contemporary pros with that kind of power.
Tim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 06:19 AM

got a new telly last week,that box was pretty damn heavy i can tell you.Nearly broke my back.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: clueless don
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 09:31 AM

On 26 Feb 07 - 03:22 PM, GUEST,meself wrote, regarding Ernest Hemingway:

And Joe Louis, stopping his fist an inch from Papa's nose, advised him, "Stick to writing".

Funny, but I read a similar anecdote regarding Hemingway and Gene Tunney. According to this story, Hemingway and Tunney were sparring, and Hemingway did something (can't tell you what) that went against the "unwritten" understanding of the rules of the session. Tunney then feinted down Hemingway's guard and sent a punch "whistling" at his face, stopping just short. At this point, Tunney is reported to have said "Don't you ever do that again!"

I might have read this in Albert Payson Terhune's autobiography (Terhune, who wrote "Lad, a Dog" and similar dog stories, was apparently an accomplished amateur boxer), but I can't be sure. In any event, either Hemingway went around ticking off every major boxer of his time, or there's an urban legend afoot.

Don


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 09:40 AM

Riginslinger, I believe Joey Giardello belong in that group.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 10:12 AM

Clueless Don: I have to admit that I cannot vouch for the veracity of that Joe Louis anecdote; I was just repeating it more or less as I heard it - or as I think I remember having heard it - twenty-five or thirty years ago from someone who had just been reading some biography of Hemingway. However, from what I (think I) know of Hemingway, I think it quite likely he DID go around ticking off every major boxer of his time (and probably a lot of the minor ones too).

There doesn't seem to be any question about the Morley Callaghan incident, though (they were sparring; Callaghan was clobbering him; F. Scott Fitzgerald was supposed to be keeping time, but was so distraught he forgot - Hemingway accused Fitzgerald of letting the round go overtime because he was enjoying the sight of Hemingway taking a beating, and those two never spoke again ... Callaghan gives a blow-by-blow account in That Summer in Paris).

(As for Lad, a Dog - it was a source of much unhappiness in my childhood, in that it had me yearning over a period of years for my very own collie dog, which I was never allowed to have. Excuse me for a moment ... )


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM

Sounds to me like Ernest Hemingway was a real pain in the neck to have around...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 12:41 PM

he knew all the best fishing spots, though


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: gnu
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 03:59 PM

The best? We will never know. But, from a purely technical point of view... Larry Holmes. Lennox Lewis. Teofilo Stevenson. Ali.

Pound for pound? Roberto Duran. (And don't give me that shit about Sugar Ray... when he fought Duran in the "No Mas" fight, it was worst display of "robbery" I have EVER seen. When Duran was pointing to his stomach, he was doing so NOT because he was injured but because he was SICK to his stomach. So was I.) On the other hand, I have seen only a few boxers who were as skilled as Sugar Ray and as entertaining to watch.... when I considered boxing entertainment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:44 AM

Ali said in an interview that the best "boxer" the most skilled he ever fought was Floyd Patterson.I thought Jimmy Young gave him a good boxing lesson, but he didn't have the heavy punch to really hurt anyone.

Duran quit. Even his most ardent fans turned on him for that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: 3refs
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:22 AM

Ali, with out question. The rest are all tied for a close second.

Haven't read any mention of George Chuvalo. Never knocked out or off his feet! Threw knuckles with the worlds best. Ali, Forman, Fraser, Patterson and many say he beat Tyrell and should have won the Heavyweight championship in 1965.

Ali said "He was the toughest man I ever fought." And Chuvalo quipped after their first fight, "Guess who went to the hospital and guess who went out dancing with his wife!"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: 3refs
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:25 AM

Forgot to mention that George wasn't much for backing up and most of the time he lead with his right eye!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM

It's a damn shame that Ali was robbed of three years in his prime. He might well have been the best ever without question.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:17 AM

Kendall, I'll bet you remember the name of the "best fight referee"? I can't quite recall his name, but he was most often sought to referee the championship fights. He was always regarded as the most fair and honest. Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 20 January 12:57 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.