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BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers

kendall 03 Mar 07 - 01:14 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 03 Mar 07 - 11:49 AM
Peter Kasin 03 Mar 07 - 02:20 AM
Bobert 02 Mar 07 - 09:31 PM
Riginslinger 02 Mar 07 - 07:47 PM
kendall 02 Mar 07 - 07:08 AM
fat B****rd 02 Mar 07 - 04:37 AM
Peter Kasin 02 Mar 07 - 02:24 AM
Riginslinger 01 Mar 07 - 03:17 PM
kendall 28 Feb 07 - 10:36 PM
Rabbi-Sol 28 Feb 07 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,Chanteyranger 28 Feb 07 - 08:03 PM
Riginslinger 28 Feb 07 - 07:50 PM
GUEST,Chanteyranger 28 Feb 07 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,meself 28 Feb 07 - 06:09 PM
Deckman 28 Feb 07 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,Chanteyranger 28 Feb 07 - 04:46 PM
fat B****rd 28 Feb 07 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Chanteyranger 28 Feb 07 - 03:15 PM
Leadbelly 28 Feb 07 - 02:12 PM
gnu 28 Feb 07 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,meself 28 Feb 07 - 01:49 PM
pdq 28 Feb 07 - 01:44 PM
kendall 28 Feb 07 - 01:05 PM
fat B****rd 28 Feb 07 - 12:59 PM
fat B****rd 28 Feb 07 - 12:51 PM
Deckman 28 Feb 07 - 11:44 AM
kendall 28 Feb 07 - 11:38 AM
Deckman 28 Feb 07 - 10:19 AM
Deckman 28 Feb 07 - 10:17 AM
kendall 28 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM
3refs 28 Feb 07 - 09:25 AM
3refs 28 Feb 07 - 09:22 AM
kendall 28 Feb 07 - 07:44 AM
gnu 27 Feb 07 - 03:59 PM
Lonesome EJ 27 Feb 07 - 12:41 PM
Little Hawk 27 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,meself 27 Feb 07 - 10:12 AM
kendall 27 Feb 07 - 09:40 AM
clueless don 27 Feb 07 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,ib48 27 Feb 07 - 06:19 AM
mandotim 27 Feb 07 - 05:26 AM
Riginslinger 27 Feb 07 - 12:02 AM
GUEST,dax 26 Feb 07 - 07:57 PM
Rabbi-Sol 26 Feb 07 - 07:50 PM
Riginslinger 26 Feb 07 - 07:38 PM
kendall 26 Feb 07 - 07:18 PM
Rabbi-Sol 26 Feb 07 - 07:17 PM
Peter Kasin 26 Feb 07 - 06:55 PM
Becca72 26 Feb 07 - 05:36 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 01:14 PM

In my not so humble opinion, Tyson in his prime could lick any heavyweight that ever lived, with the possible exception of Ali. Tyson had remarkable hand speed and devastating power in both hands. He was also tougher than Japanese math.

Ali, however, had the moves that would frustrate Tyson and keep himself from getting hit with those bombs.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:49 AM

Yvonne Durelle was anther great but a light heavy. His first fight against Archie Moore was an all time classic. He put Moore down four times, three in the first round and Moore benefited from a slow count. Moore recovered to win the match.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvon_Durelle

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=9445&more=1<


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 02:20 AM

The Fitzsimmons/Foreman suggestion was a lame attempt at a joke about a dream "geezer" match. Yes, Foreman, would have destroyed Fitzsimmons, probaly quicker than Jeffries ko'd him in reality.

While on the subject of "dream" matches, what would you like to see if the miracle of a time machine would bring boxers together in their prime? First on most boxing fans list would have to be Ali vs Louis, to determine who really was 'the greatest." I'd bet on Ali. He had the style that gave Louis the most trouble, plus his great ability. Other dream matches I'd like to see, as far as the heavyweight division goes,would be Foreman vs Liston (god, what a slugfest that would be). I'd give the advantage to Liston. Ali, who ought to know, said Liston hit harder than Foreman, and Liston had better skills. Dempsey vs Louis, Marciano vs Frazier, Marciano vs Tyson, Jack Johnson vs Ali, Jeffries vs Dempsey, and the match that almost happened in reality, Dempsey vs Harry Wills.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 09:31 PM

Well, yeah, I can't much argue with anyone here... All these fighters was great but...

...fir this ol' hillbilly it was Clarky Crumbar an' it was like the 8th grade an' I was 'bout 5'8" an' 'bout hunnert pounds and Clarky had been kept back a few years an was like 5 years older an' 'bout 6'2" and 'round 240 an...

...well, one day in English class he kinda got this idea in his head that I was out to get him??? Hey, maybe this is why he was doing the 8th grade fir the 2nd 'er 4th time, I don't know...

So, Clarky has dozed off in clas an' had some dream where aq 600 foot tall Jesus came to him an' said, "Bobert is out to get ya" so...

Whats a 6'2", 240 kid to do???

So Mrs. Green called him up to front to get some test paper 'er somethin' and so he went on up fir the paper and on the way back figgured that he'd better take care of that "pesky Bobert" while he could so he...

... sucker punched the poor ol' Bobert with 'bout all them 240 and the poor ol' Bobert jus' went with chair 'bout 3 'er 5 feet back and bleedin' real bad but the best part 'bout it was that I din't remember the blood cause...

...I was out cold, too...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 07:47 PM

If Bob Fitzsimmons only weighed 155 lbs. when he was fighting, putting him in with George Foreman would be a real mismatch.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 07:08 AM

It really delights me to see Tiger Woods kicking asses on the golf course. When I was his age, he wouldn't even be allowed ON the course!

How could anyone claim to be the best when they have refused to fight anyone, black or white?

George Forman would kill Fitzsimmons.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: fat B****rd
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 04:37 AM

If you Google "Unforgivable Blackness" there is a PBS site regarding the Johnson-Jeffries fight in 1910. Fascinating and disgraceful.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 02:24 AM

kendall, how about a dream geezer match between Fitzsimmons and (the second coming of) George Foreman? :-).

That was such an irony about London, riginslinger. You'd think a socialist activist might have different feelings about race than the general white population, but, as you note, those were different times.

Fascinating stuff, Rabbi-Sol! Warning: typical Californian remark to follow: Thanks for sharing!

Chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 03:17 PM

Chanteyranger--Given what we know of Jack London--Socialist-Labor Activist--it's hard to think of him as a Racist. But, of course, those were different times.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:36 PM

I mis spoke, it was Fitzsimmons who won the title at 42.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:50 PM

My cousin happens to be a boxing promoter. His name is Aaron Braunstein and he is the father of movie actress Natasha Lyonne. He is also a radio show host. He currently resides in a NYC penthouse apartment that Mike Tyson lived in. He claims that Tyson gave it to him as a present. If you go to his website, www.nyshockjock.com you will see pictures of him with many famous fighters including Jake LaMotta, Jose Torres, and Tyson.
                                              SOL


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 08:03 PM

Yes, that was it. London very publicly urged Jeffries to come out of retirement to fight Johnson, for race reasons. London reported on the Johnson/Tommy Burns fight, and was so incensed by Johnson, he wanted Jeffries to "wipe that golden smile off Johnson's face." "It's up to you, Jeff," he wrote. like so many others, he couldn't accept a black champion, especially one who was proud and didn't fit stereotypes.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:50 PM

Was Johnson and Jeffries the fight that was held in Reno, and Jack London did the commentary for the Associated Press (or whatever they called it then) through a running series of telegrams?


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:40 PM

I thought I saw you there. I was listening to my A-Pod between rounds.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 06:09 PM

Hey - you weren't the high-roller with the big waxed moustache, the derby at a rakish angle, the half-chewed cheroot one corner of his mouth, and a floozy on each arm, were you? Wait a minute - I think that was me -


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:36 PM

I was in the second row for that fight! Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 04:46 PM

Right, FB, Corbett was no "gentleman Jim' when it came to black boxers :-). A great thread it is. Thanks for your contributions and everyone's.

Don't want to play the schoolmarm here, but it was mentioned that Jeffries was 42 when he won the title. Actually he was a young man when he won the title; born in 1875 and won it by knocking out Bob Fitzsimmons in 1899.

Chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: fat B****rd
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 03:37 PM

Fair comment, Chanteyranger. Those fighters never knew when to quit. I read a book about "The Great White Hopes". When Jeffries was dragged out of retirement to fight Johnson virtually all of America assumed he'd win. Jack taunted and knocked him around for rounds before knocking him out. The public reaction to Jack Johnson was virulent and he showed amazing courage in turning up at all, let alone being so brash about the whole thing. Corbett and Sullivan are on film together when they turned up to "see the ****** beaten".
Peter Jackson fought a terrific no-contest with Corbett who apparently didn't do him the courtesy of calling him Mr. Jackson.
Once again - great thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 03:15 PM

Fat B***rd, I rate Jeffries higher as Jeffries fought Corbett twice, and knocked him out both times, though it was late in Corbett's career. In his prime Jeffries was a great puncher, had a granite chin, and was surprisingly very fast on his feet (slowed down and past his prime when he fought Jack Johnson). He just seemed to have been on a higher plane than Corbett and many others of his era and the immediate preceding era.

One thing to remember is that John L. Sullivan, Jeffries, and many other white boxers drew the color line (Burns to his credit finally agreed to fight Johnson)and refused to fight black boxers. Greats such as Peter Jackson, Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette, and Sam Langford never had a chance at the title, so the record books are filled with black fighters boxing each other multiple times. Jack Johnson, when he became champion, also drew the color line against other black boxers, not wanting to risk his title against the likes of Langford, Jeanette, and McVey.

There's a bittersweet, poignant film clip of Jack Johnson and Joe Jeanette boxing each other in an exhibition fundraiser when they were old men. They're smiling and enjoying their friendship as they move about, clinch, and throw soft punches.

Chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Leadbelly
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 02:12 PM

Ever heard of Max Schmeling?

He wasn't the best but I think he should be mentioned.

Manfred


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: gnu
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 02:00 PM

Yes, PDQ... sorry about not being clear there.

I'd quit too, Kendall. Both fighters should have to fight by the rules, not just one. Anyway, it's one of those arguements that will never be settled... like Chuvalo...


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 01:49 PM

If we're talking pound-for-pound (no pun intended), how 'bout the much-maligned Tommy Burns?

"Just 5 foot, 7 inches tall, and weighing about 170 lbs, Burns was a middleweight by today's standards, but he held the world championship for two years and 10 months, defending it 14 times, before losing it to a black man, Jack Johnson, in a fight staged in Australia, fittingly on Boxing Day, December,1908."

http://www.umanitoba.ca/cm/vol8/no4/tommy.html


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: pdq
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 01:44 PM

"And don't give me that shit about Sugar Ray...when he fought Duran..."

I think people were were talking about "Sugar Ray" Robinson, not Leonard. He was bout 20 years earlier and was one of the greats.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 01:05 PM

You have to give those old fighters credit, Jefferies was 42 when he won the title, John L. Sullivan went 75 rounds with Jake Kilrain, and in those days, no wimpy gloves, bare knuckles!


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: fat B****rd
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 12:59 PM

Just had a look at Sam's record at a quick count he fought Joe 13 times over a period of years.
The numbers of fights these guys took part was amazing.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: fat B****rd
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 12:51 PM

I'm interested to see Sam Langford (The Boston Tar Baby) mentioned favourably here. He (if my memory serves me well) fought Joe Jeanette more times than some fighters have fights in their entire careers. Chanteyranger I think I'd have Jim Corbett in there instead of Jim Jeffries, but thankyou for a great thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:44 AM

Well, at least I was close!


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:38 AM

Ruby Goldstien


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:19 AM

Rudy Golberg or Rudy Goldstein????


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 10:17 AM

Kendall, I'll bet you remember the name of the "best fight referee"? I can't quite recall his name, but he was most often sought to referee the championship fights. He was always regarded as the most fair and honest. Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM

It's a damn shame that Ali was robbed of three years in his prime. He might well have been the best ever without question.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: 3refs
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:25 AM

Forgot to mention that George wasn't much for backing up and most of the time he lead with his right eye!


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: 3refs
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 09:22 AM

Ali, with out question. The rest are all tied for a close second.

Haven't read any mention of George Chuvalo. Never knocked out or off his feet! Threw knuckles with the worlds best. Ali, Forman, Fraser, Patterson and many say he beat Tyrell and should have won the Heavyweight championship in 1965.

Ali said "He was the toughest man I ever fought." And Chuvalo quipped after their first fight, "Guess who went to the hospital and guess who went out dancing with his wife!"


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 07:44 AM

Ali said in an interview that the best "boxer" the most skilled he ever fought was Floyd Patterson.I thought Jimmy Young gave him a good boxing lesson, but he didn't have the heavy punch to really hurt anyone.

Duran quit. Even his most ardent fans turned on him for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: gnu
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 03:59 PM

The best? We will never know. But, from a purely technical point of view... Larry Holmes. Lennox Lewis. Teofilo Stevenson. Ali.

Pound for pound? Roberto Duran. (And don't give me that shit about Sugar Ray... when he fought Duran in the "No Mas" fight, it was worst display of "robbery" I have EVER seen. When Duran was pointing to his stomach, he was doing so NOT because he was injured but because he was SICK to his stomach. So was I.) On the other hand, I have seen only a few boxers who were as skilled as Sugar Ray and as entertaining to watch.... when I considered boxing entertainment.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 12:41 PM

he knew all the best fishing spots, though


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM

Sounds to me like Ernest Hemingway was a real pain in the neck to have around...


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 10:12 AM

Clueless Don: I have to admit that I cannot vouch for the veracity of that Joe Louis anecdote; I was just repeating it more or less as I heard it - or as I think I remember having heard it - twenty-five or thirty years ago from someone who had just been reading some biography of Hemingway. However, from what I (think I) know of Hemingway, I think it quite likely he DID go around ticking off every major boxer of his time (and probably a lot of the minor ones too).

There doesn't seem to be any question about the Morley Callaghan incident, though (they were sparring; Callaghan was clobbering him; F. Scott Fitzgerald was supposed to be keeping time, but was so distraught he forgot - Hemingway accused Fitzgerald of letting the round go overtime because he was enjoying the sight of Hemingway taking a beating, and those two never spoke again ... Callaghan gives a blow-by-blow account in That Summer in Paris).

(As for Lad, a Dog - it was a source of much unhappiness in my childhood, in that it had me yearning over a period of years for my very own collie dog, which I was never allowed to have. Excuse me for a moment ... )


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 09:40 AM

Riginslinger, I believe Joey Giardello belong in that group.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: clueless don
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 09:31 AM

On 26 Feb 07 - 03:22 PM, GUEST,meself wrote, regarding Ernest Hemingway:

And Joe Louis, stopping his fist an inch from Papa's nose, advised him, "Stick to writing".

Funny, but I read a similar anecdote regarding Hemingway and Gene Tunney. According to this story, Hemingway and Tunney were sparring, and Hemingway did something (can't tell you what) that went against the "unwritten" understanding of the rules of the session. Tunney then feinted down Hemingway's guard and sent a punch "whistling" at his face, stopping just short. At this point, Tunney is reported to have said "Don't you ever do that again!"

I might have read this in Albert Payson Terhune's autobiography (Terhune, who wrote "Lad, a Dog" and similar dog stories, was apparently an accomplished amateur boxer), but I can't be sure. In any event, either Hemingway went around ticking off every major boxer of his time, or there's an urban legend afoot.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 06:19 AM

got a new telly last week,that box was pretty damn heavy i can tell you.Nearly broke my back.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: mandotim
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 05:26 AM

The reason I raised the issue of Stevenson was on the basis of one punch that sticks in my memory. He fought (I think) an Eastern European heavyweight, a huge hulk of a man in the early rounds of the Olympics; in the first round Stevenson hit him so hard he was lifted clean off his feet and deposited on his back, out cold. The punch was an orthodox left jab. He would certainly have threatened any of his contemporary pros with that kind of power.
Tim


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 12:02 AM

You're right, it was LaMotta. I thought that looked funny.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: GUEST,dax
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:57 PM

Teofilio Stevenson at one time was supposed to fight Ali but it never came about. He would rate high though.
Dempsy and Marciano were both small by todays heavyweight standard and Archie Moore was a ligt-heavy but it ain't so much the size of the dog in the fight as the size of the fight in the dog.
Sam Langford may have been the best ever pound for pound as he was at best a middleweight soaking wet, yet fought and won against the worlds best heavies. Nobody would give him a title fight due partly to fear and largly to racism.
http://www.iabpff.org/regions/site/sam1.html
Liston should not be on the list as he was a Mafia patsy with a string of fixed fights.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:50 PM

It is spelled LaMotta. Jake LaMotta was known as The Raging Bull and a movie was made about him starring Robert DiNero.

                                                      SOL


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:38 PM

The Middleweights of the 1950's.

Jake Lamada
Sugar Ray Robinson
Gene Fulmer
Bobo Olson

          I think there were a couple more.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:18 PM

There was a lot of complaining that Stevenson was a professional being subsidized by the Cuban government and all. Talk was that boxing is all he did while the government supported him.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:17 PM

But Fidel never gave him the chance to prove it.

                                              SOL


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:55 PM

Stevenson was awesome. He also won the Olympic gold medal at the '76 and '80 games. Some boxing experts think he might have become champion if he turned pro, and certainly would have been a top contender.


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Subject: RE: BS: top all-time heavyweight boxers
From: Becca72
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 05:36 PM

My personal favorite is Lennox Lewis.


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