Folk music lacking?

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Scoville
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:00 AM

Nature of the beast, Grab. I mean, I have books where people have attempted to notate variants and improvisations of a tune but it will never convey the individuality of playing. It's just not effective. (This is why folkies get so frustrated with dot-dependent musicians.) The fiddlers I know also swap recordings compulsively because you learn something new from every musician's individual rendition of a given tune, and it can make a big difference in the way you play a tune.

We learn by ear, so we transmit from musician to musician by ear, so they learn by ear, and on it goes. Funny, though--I always assumed the same was true of jazz, for the same reason.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Grab
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:27 AM

Scoville: Since we're in England, that's quite likely! :-)

But that's my point. What gets written down is the bare bones of the melody, and that's necessarily simple. But in a session where people have learnt from the dots and haven't moved on to improvising on that basis, that's what gets played.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 05:40 PM

yes and no. Jazz is usually based on sophisticated harmonies. Most folk has basic harmonies but subtle. The folk so-called modes opened the door for modal harmony which prior to the folk revival was not much found in jazz. Folk can be re-harmonized (much to the chagrin of those who consider themselves purists) and has been in many cases as it has changed to fit popular tastes. The melodies, however, can be quite unique and beautiful and in and of themselves be rather sophisticated at times. Greensleeves is an example (if you want to call it folk). It was originally constructed as an Aolian mode but the Dorian came from Ralph Vaughan Williams adaptation using the natural sixth rather than the flatted sixth of the Aolian scale. The Water Is Wide is another case where the melody is quite flowing and there have been re-harmonizations of the tune, notably the arrangement from the Twenties for the baritone, John Charles Thomas. This is the arrangement that Pete Seeger has used. John Jacob Niles has written songs that are beautifully constructed melodically which you might call "folk-styled" songs.

Usually, the melody is a vehicle for the story but there are examples where the melodies can stand on their own aside from the lyric.

Today's jazz tends toward a minimalist harmonic approach influenced by the playing and writing of Miles Davis. This may be closer to what we think of as modal folk. The difference is that in jazz the chord constructions are extended to include alterations that may be dissonant to some untrained ears.

I think that if you are really into chord sophistication and chord changes with improvisation built on them, folk music does not have the harmonic range unless it has been souped up by arrangers or composers.

I think, however, it would be foolish to assume that folk melodies are uninteresting and devoid of a certain kind of musical sophistication that stems from the way they are ornamented and changed from verse to verse by traditional exponents in folk-style singing and playing. The music can be fascinating and appealing in a different way with subtle complexities that appear to be disarmingly simple.

I am finding as the definition of folk music changes and broadens that jazz influences the improvisation and interpretation in this idiom.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 04:49 PM

Grab--your wife isn't listening to enough Missouri fiddle music. Constant improvisation and almost impossible to notate beyond the barest bones of the melody. The more you listen to it, the more you hear.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 04:10 PM

ive just listened to radio two, what a heap of crap,listening to that, ill tell you what folk music is lacking, passion,singers unable to interpret their material and over arrangement,and as for north cregg somebody shoot their guitarist please,this is supposed to be dance music,christ almighty.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 03:55 PM

But folk songs are only a part of folk music. And sung ballads are only a part of storytelling in folk traditions.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 03:39 PM

Of course one thing that seems to be forgotten when discussing the tunes of folk songs and ballads is that the tune acts as a vehicle for the telling of a story.

Some scholars have theorized that early literary works (like, for example, the Iliad) were spoken rather than read, and having them in meter and rhyme acted as a mnemonic device—easier to remember a piece if it was in some sort of pattern. The next step was to sort of chant them to fairly repetitive pattern of pitches—another kind of pattern to aid the memory. Bingo! Melody is born. Or so goes the theory.

But still, almost all folk songs either tell a story (ballad) or imply a story, so one could argue that the words are more important than the tune.

That. of course, is something one can argue about until Sunday breakfast. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Feb 07 - 11:16 AM

My wife said the other day that she wasn't so keen on folk because the music wasn't inherently complex. That is, the dots written on the page are almost always a pretty simplistic tune, repeated ad infinitum. Which can't really be denied, because they are.

The difference is though that folk isn't a case of playing the dots. Folk is an improvisational form, so the dots are a starting point for someone good to put their own interpretation around, varying from simple phrasing and accidentals to harmonies or occasional complete deviation from the tune. And a good player is unlikely to do the repeat the next time in the same way as they did the first time - in fact if they're good then they won't.

Which I think is why sessions are almost always boring for non-players. The players are having fun playing, but often they're not good enough to be putting interesting variation in there. And hearing the same thing repeated over and over is generally not appealing for "outsiders".

Graham.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 09:22 PM

"Greensleeves is actually in the dorian mode, not a minor key. (No offense.)"

Well, it depends on which version. I've seen it written as strictly Dorian mode, and I've also seen it written as melodic minor. And I've seen mixed versions that start out Dorian and then go into melodic minor (most people tend to sing it that way). So which is the "authoritative" version? I prefer the Dorian, myself, but had I said "Dorian," I'm sure someone would have said, "No, it's in melodic minor."

Ya can't win.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 03:50 AM

There has always been a snobbishness towards 'simple' or 'peasants' traditional song and music, despite the fact that Yehudi Menuin, when playing with a couple of Irish fiddlers for a television programme, laid his 'violin' down and said he coudn't manage it. He was one of the great advocates of traditional music from outside the scene.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Alec
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 03:33 AM

You might also like to show him the thread "Modes For Mudcatters".
I say this because,in my experience, "Modal" is a word that tends to get used in a very imprecise way by some Jazz fans & there is a lot there which is relevant to your point.
In addition to which "Modes For Mudcatters" links directly to several other related threads of some interest.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 03:18 AM

Thanks for all that knowledge and scholarship everyone, and the examples given in support.
I will pass all this on.
Again, thanks.
keith.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 12:24 AM

Greensleeves is actually in the dorian mode, not a minor key. (No offense.)

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 12:21 AM

Worth noting that if you listen to early jazz, you will have heard some variant of most of the folk melodies above, major and minor. "St. James Infirmary" is a kissing cousin to "Star of the County Down", and neither are more than a stone's throw from "Greensleeves".

Also, if you remember that all the world has folk music--there are many places, such as the Balkans, where the major melodies are heavily outnumbered by minor melodies--

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: GUEST,Fidjit
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 11:46 PM

Er. Don't go down the mine errrrrrs folks

Chas

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Scoville
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 10:02 PM

Hmm-haven't tried DAG. I do DAD capo 1 (Em), DAD capo 4 (Am), DAC (Dm), and something weird for C minor (I'd have to look it up; would that be CGB?). I think I would have to restring for DAG, though. Ten-gauge strings flap too much when I tune them down that far. I should try it.

I've never heard a minor version of "Old Chisholm Trail", leeneia. Where'd you find it?

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Scoville
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 09:57 PM

Here are my minor tunes/songs, and I don't know nearly as many tunes as a lot of people I know (I think just tunes are fair; after all, a lot of jazz isn't sung, either):

A minor
Ballydesmond Polka
Clinch Mountain Backstep (some variants)
Cluck, Old Hen
Cold, Frosty, Morn
Elzic's Farewell
Got a Little Home to Go To (some variants)
Ginny, Comb Your Hair
Greasy Coat
Kitchen Girl (partly A major, partly A minor)
Red-Haired Boy
Salt River
Salty Dog
Santa Ana's Retreat (partly A major, partly A minor)

C minor
Marquis of Huntley

D minor
Gone to Kansas
John Barleycorn
Julia Delaney
Old Bangum
Pa Janvier
Sally in the Garden

E minor
All the Pretty Little Horses
Cuckoo
Hunting for the Buffalo (some variants)
Riding on a Load of Hay
Rights of Man
Scarborough Fair
Scollay's
Ships Are Sailing

G major in first part, mostly E minor in second part
Big Scioty
Blackberry Blossom
Flowers of Edinburgh
Jimmy in the Swamp
Midnight on the Water
Seneca Square Dance

Others
Polly Vaughan
Rising Sun Blues
Wayfaring Stranger
Wondrous Love

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 08:53 PM

Here's my list of minor songs that I play in DAG on my fretted dulcimer. It's just the beginning. There are uncounted jigs and reels in minor keys.

The second "column" tells me what fret to start the tune in. It's merely an aid to memory.



Are you sleepin', Maggie?                               ?
Banks and braes of Bonnie Doon                A 1st
Black is the color of my true love's hair------E 5th
Blow the candle out                                    A 1st
Bonnie light horseman                         A 1st (6.5)
Can't help but wonder where I'm bound---    E 5th
Cantigas (work on cantigas)
Come all you pretty maidens,
       wherever you be                                 C 3rd
Come you merry lads & lasses (madrigal).. D 4th
Darlin' Corey-------------------------------------G 0
Dissembling love                                        A 1st
Dove she is a pretty bird ---------------- E 5th (6.5)
Dowie dens of Yarrow=============== A 1st
Drunken sailor..................................   E 5th (6.5)
Elm tree branches----------------------------- C 3rd
Froggie went a-courting------------------------A 1st
Gather us in                                       A 1st (6.5)
    play 2nd phrase on parallel A & D strings
God rest ye merry, gentlemen ................... A 1st
The great silkie                                          D 4th
Gwcw fach==================    E 5th (6.5)
Here I sit on Buttermilk hill.............          F 6th
I got a mule and her name is Sal                A 1st
If you miss the train I'm on                        C 3rd
Jesus walked the lonesome valley ======= G 0
Johnny, I hardly knew you                         A 1st
Let all mortal flesh keep silence                A 1st
Man of constant sorrow.......................... E 5th
Masters in this hall                                  A 1st
Motherless child ================== E 5th
My lord, what a morning---------------    F (6/5)
Now the green blade rises (Noel nouvelet)A 1st
Nyth a gog                                              E 4th
O come, o come, Emmanuel ................. A 1st
Old Chisholm trail----------------------------A 1st
Row your boat to Jesus' side========= D 4th
Scarborough Fair                            A 1st (6.5)
Scheherazade themes
Singers, sing                            E 5th
Star of the County Down-------------------C 3rd
Summertime Porgy & Bess ====== A hi 8th
Sweet the evening air of May................. A 1st
Sweet Willie and Lady Margot                E 5th
Swing low, sweet chariot-----------      F# 6 1/2
Turn ye to me---------------------------------A 1st
Two young brothers marched away         D 4th
Wayfaring stranger--------------------------A 1st
Wild Rover ====================    E 5th

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 08:05 PM

There are lots of folk songs and ballads in minor keys.

Keith, tell your friend that if he thinks that, he should spend a little time actually listening to some folk music.

There are people out there (including a lot of musicians, who should know better) who think that "Down in the Valley" is the be-all and end-all of American folk music and that "Greensleeves" is the only English folk song there is (but, of course, according to any strict definition of "folk music," it doesn't qualify--and, by the way, it's in a minor key, and is harmonically fairly rich).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:47 PM

I think Crane Driver may have hit the mark with

"Possibly what your friend means is that folk music, especially trad stuff, is short on modulation - that is, when a tune in one key goes into another (often from a major key into a minor) and then returns to the original key within one musical phrase. This is certainly rarer in folk than in jazz..."

but then again, Crane Driver has probably never heard me sing....

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:36 PM

Either your friend knows bugger all, Keith, or he was pulling your leg.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:30 PM

As I Roved Out
Spancil Hill
Star of the County Down
House of the Rising Sun
Johnny I Hardly Knew Ya

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:29 PM

Thanks, Luke (Chris).

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:27 PM

It said they "have minor chords", not that they are in minor keys.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:22 PM

Only three on that list weren't in a minor key.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:21 PM

While I admit that there are probably more major than minor-key songs in folk music, I find that to term the genre "lacking" unnecessarily judgmental. It's not lacking. It obviously has enough minor-key songs for its own purposes, otherwise people would come up with more of them and balance it out.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:17 PM

Don't Get Married
The Cod Liver oil (not that one, The other one)
The Cod Liver Oil (that one)

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:36 PM

Minor chords, yes. But, are they all in minor keys?

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:34 PM

Folk songs with minor chords:

The Parting Glass
Hot Asphalt
Rocky Road to Dublin
Spancil Hill
The Star of the County Down
Drunken Sailor
Paddy West
School Day's Over
Dirty old Town
Go to Sea no More
Minstrel Boy
Galway Races
Galway Bay
The Foggy Dew

Need I go on?

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:26 PM

Let's give your friend's address to Readers' Digest!

Sal

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: terrier
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 05:27 PM

....
Blackleg Minor
Minors Dream of Home
...there's lots of minors in folk.... ;~}

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 05:11 PM

Yep! Drunken Sailor is pretty depressing. Particularly if you were the captain of the Exxon Valdez.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 05:03 PM

Folk is lacking in songs done in minor keys. But then, there might be a good reason for that. I have always found stuff done in a minor key to be 'depressing'. It is certainly difficult--though not impossible I think--to write a humourous song in a minor key. I think it would have to be very dry humour, for sure. As to jazz having more minor stuff, yeah, probably. The one think I find funny is your friends either/or thing. I like jazz because it has more . . . . When I'm hungry for spaghetti, only spaghetti will do. When I'm hungry, it doesn't have to be spaghetti.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Scoville
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 04:03 PM

I thought the stuff I've been listening to (country, folk-rock, rockabilly, etc.) was only a half-step above three-chord garage rock until I looked up a friend's son's rock band on MySpace today at lunch and was reminded of how basic three-chord rock really is, and why the term "three-chord rock" is a put-down. Holy cow. Made Hank Williams sound downright symphonic.

I have to confess, though, that I don't know enough about all but the earliest jazz to make a comparison.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 04:00 PM

your friend is a musical ignoramus.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: BB
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 03:52 PM

My brother, who is a jazz man, thought the same about his little sister's music until he heard 'Searching for Lambs', and the modes were explained to him. That was some 35 years ago. He's still a jazz man, but he doesn't dismiss folk music any more. But he's not into words, so it's the sound that he goes for, i.e. arrangements, by and large, whether vocal or instrumental.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 03:04 PM

No he is not right. I've heard a lot of excuses for liking Jazz. Give me your friends name. It's going on the list!

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 01:22 PM

The usual version of "Spanish Ladies" I've heard is mixolydian - do you have an ABC for Sharp's?

I think it's better if people like Keith's pal stay away. The results of people trying modern academic jazz harmonies on folk tunes are usually grotesque beyond belief. I sometimes play in a session with a singer-guitarist who has OD's on Jamie Aebersold - nobody else can play along with him, and he seems never to have asked himself whether his consistent choice of the most outlandish chords possible does anything at all to help express what the song says.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Bert
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 01:00 PM

I think that during the folk revival of the fifties and sixties many folk songs were taken up by the FOLK of that era and transformed, or 'pop'-ed, into major keys.

Spanish Ladies comes immediately to mind which is a song that I sing in a major key, though Cecil Sharp collected it in a minor key.

In my case it is entirely due to a lack of musical education.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 10:58 AM

The old 'I haven't tried it because I won't like it' syndrome...

;o)

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 10:46 AM

That doesn't make sense at all! There are lots of folk songs in minor keys - sometimes I feel like I have too many in my repertoire!

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 10:37 AM

If he thinks he doesn't like it, he doesn't listen to it. If he doesn't listen to it, he isn't aware of the variety. He concludes it's simplistic and that's why he doesn't like it.


As they said on my SAT exam, "somewhat tautological."

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 10:05 AM

Yeah, tell him we don't care - we like folk music anyway.

So there! :-)

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 09:53 AM

theres no law says you've got to like folk music. I think if you dislike it, you will find an excuse - much as we all do with people we take exception to.

I think if you expose your friend to Dorian modes etc. - prove to him positively he is quite mistaken - he in unlikely to thank you for showing him the error of his ways.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 09:44 AM

Sometimes, it sounds better,at least to me, to put some things that are "traditionally " played in a minor key back into a major one !!!
A prime example is the third or c part of the tune " The Horses Branle " , which is currently quite popular with ceilidh-bands and at "English" type sessions. I suggested it in the ceilidh -band that I play with, and everybody agrees that it sounds MUCH better !! I have a theory, anyway, that Playford -era musicians used minor keys a lot less than we might suppose,if only because of the limitations of the instruments available to them .!!! Incidentally, I have recently been doing some research into my "family tree," and I discovered, living in Ireland, a descendant of John Playford !! THE John Playford !! Yes, I know the "Horses Branle " is neither English,nor Playford, but seems & feels of that period.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 09:05 AM

Is he right?

Basically, no. But it might depend on how he defines "Folk Music" - how does he define it?

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:26 AM

Greg is right -there's jazz and jazz. When I was a trad jazz banjo player and guitarist many, many years ago, everything we played was in major keys, mainly Bb and F, to suit the trumpet,trombone and clarinet. The only tune I can remember that was in a minor key was St James' Infirmary, which we played in Dm (relative minor to F of course and therefore easy for the blowing instruments) A brief foray into modern jazz required far more complex and difficult chords.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:18 AM

crucial one is the minor third

But not confined entirely to the minor scale.
The minor third interval is also a characteristic of the Dorian mode and the two scales are often wrongly confused.
However, as I said, I ain't got all day to get into all the nuances of intervals as encountered in trad music.
So the short answer to whether the friend is right is a resounding 'no'.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:18 AM

Well, there's jazz and jazz. Started out three chord-tricky, got more and more clever dicky till chords had ten notes in and were changing every beat. But then(in some people's hands) it changed in the opposite direction and lost all harmony and became quite modal(eg some later Miles Davis etc etc). And folk is pretty variable too.
Plenty of fine tunes with minor scales(some with minor seconds as well as minor thirds, see reference to "Northern Lass" on the "Beggar Boy" CD thread). But harmonically adventurous? Well, that's down to the musicians who play the tunes. You can go where you like if you are feeling inventive. But in general, no, traditional musicians dont use complex chord sequences, in any culture I am aware of. The complexities of folk music(which are immense) lie in other directions.

Subject: RE: Folk music lacking?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:12 AM

Then if you go back to Playford you have modal tunes (which I love but don't understand enough to explain).