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BS: psychotherapy/counselling

autolycus 01 Mar 07 - 04:11 PM
GUEST, heric 01 Mar 07 - 04:14 PM
katlaughing 01 Mar 07 - 04:23 PM
bobad 01 Mar 07 - 04:27 PM
Ebbie 01 Mar 07 - 04:31 PM
Amos 01 Mar 07 - 04:33 PM
skipy 01 Mar 07 - 04:33 PM
Jean(eanjay) 01 Mar 07 - 04:37 PM
Captain Ginger 01 Mar 07 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,heric 01 Mar 07 - 04:42 PM
Bee 01 Mar 07 - 04:44 PM
Beer 01 Mar 07 - 04:48 PM
Jeri 01 Mar 07 - 04:50 PM
Bobert 01 Mar 07 - 05:14 PM
skipy 01 Mar 07 - 05:16 PM
Schantieman 01 Mar 07 - 05:21 PM
Hawker 01 Mar 07 - 05:31 PM
jacqui.c 01 Mar 07 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 01 Mar 07 - 05:39 PM
Helen 01 Mar 07 - 05:53 PM
dianavan 01 Mar 07 - 06:09 PM
Georgiansilver 01 Mar 07 - 06:22 PM
frogprince 01 Mar 07 - 06:58 PM
bobad 01 Mar 07 - 07:04 PM
Bill D 01 Mar 07 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,the doc 01 Mar 07 - 08:38 PM
Little Hawk 01 Mar 07 - 08:58 PM
mack/misophist 01 Mar 07 - 09:57 PM
Jim Lad 02 Mar 07 - 12:00 AM
Bagpuss 02 Mar 07 - 03:41 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 02 Mar 07 - 05:22 AM
Janie 02 Mar 07 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,Sparticus 02 Mar 07 - 06:30 AM
Fibula Mattock 02 Mar 07 - 10:57 AM
Andy Jackson 02 Mar 07 - 11:12 AM
Donuel 02 Mar 07 - 12:01 PM
Donuel 02 Mar 07 - 12:15 PM
autolycus 02 Mar 07 - 12:23 PM
Ebbie 02 Mar 07 - 02:35 PM
Donuel 02 Mar 07 - 02:45 PM
Fibula Mattock 02 Mar 07 - 02:51 PM
Fibula Mattock 02 Mar 07 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,lox 02 Mar 07 - 04:11 PM
redsnapper 02 Mar 07 - 05:51 PM
*daylia* 02 Mar 07 - 07:18 PM
autolycus 02 Mar 07 - 07:32 PM
Strollin' Johnny 03 Mar 07 - 03:28 AM
Liz the Squeak 03 Mar 07 - 04:05 AM
Black Beauty 03 Mar 07 - 05:27 AM
autolycus 03 Mar 07 - 05:32 AM
Alec 03 Mar 07 - 06:05 AM
*daylia* 03 Mar 07 - 11:14 AM
Amos 03 Mar 07 - 11:24 AM
the lemonade lady 03 Mar 07 - 12:08 PM
Amos 03 Mar 07 - 12:47 PM
kendall 03 Mar 07 - 01:07 PM
Little Hawk 03 Mar 07 - 01:32 PM
Andy Jackson 03 Mar 07 - 01:38 PM
autolycus 03 Mar 07 - 02:21 PM
Janie 03 Mar 07 - 02:51 PM
Janie 03 Mar 07 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,lox 03 Mar 07 - 03:31 PM
autolycus 03 Mar 07 - 05:24 PM
Little Hawk 03 Mar 07 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,heric 03 Mar 07 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,heric 03 Mar 07 - 07:00 PM
Hawker 03 Mar 07 - 07:09 PM
Liz the Squeak 03 Mar 07 - 07:29 PM
autolycus 04 Mar 07 - 06:21 AM
heric 04 Mar 07 - 10:44 AM
Cruiser 04 Mar 07 - 04:55 PM
Stringsinger 04 Mar 07 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 04 Mar 07 - 06:05 PM
Little Hawk 04 Mar 07 - 08:30 PM
autolycus 05 Mar 07 - 05:00 PM

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Subject: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:11 PM

I'd really appreciate it if you would set down your first thoughts when you see either of those words.






       Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:14 PM

I see a butterfly


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:23 PM

Someone who wants some help...or at least recognises they may need some help.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:27 PM

Treatment for ailments of the psyche.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:31 PM

heric jumps right into the Rorschach, saving time all around. I like that, although I'm not sure of the butterfly.

What do I think of when I sse those words? Pretty much what kat said. My guess, though, is that a person who is not TOO far off the beam could do the analysis and therapy themselves IF they have a professional to keep them on course.

I don't really know though. And of course, a great many of us don't seek help until our thought processes and our lives have gotten completely skewed.

All in all, I think it is a good thing, like any other tool.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:33 PM

Ivor:

What are you seeking, here, actually? Your request seems very indirect and ambiguous.

Mine, most recently, was "Wow--what a difference in such a short time!".

A


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: skipy
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:33 PM

If you have memories of butterflies when you where young it does not mean that you are not a replicant!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:37 PM

My first thoughts when I see those words are "I've tried them and won't bother again".


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:42 PM

Horses for courses. Some swear by them, some find them useless. My own view is that they are like walking sticks - some people need them, others find they get in the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:42 PM

I think that's probable skip but you could also be a butterfly dreaming you are a man on the couch.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Bee
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:44 PM

First thing I think is: good thing if practitioner is sufficiently educated in the profession. There are far too many self-styled counsellors out there who practice out of their nether parts, and may do more harm than good. This is one field where I believe, as a general rule, that the more educated the better. I wouldn't let an EMT perform heart surgery on me, I won't let a social worker diagnose my psychiatric issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Beer
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:48 PM

Good Luck.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 04:50 PM

This is a subject that obviously makes some people extremely uncomfortable, which they express in various ways from trying to be funny to suspiscion. What't the worst thing that can happen to you if you just answer the guy's question?!

My first reaction word-association-wise for me was 'help'.
We used to live in more extended families and closer communities. There was a wise relative or community member who people talked to. Now, they pay someone who has paid a lot to be trained how to do it. Everybody needs a hand sometimes, and we don't all have a disinterested but trusted person around us to talk to.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:14 PM

Sex...


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: skipy
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:16 PM

Heric, maybe so, but that won't stop them trying to deactivate you!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Schantieman
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:21 PM

I found counselling useful at two difficult times in my life.   Some don't though.

S


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Hawker
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:31 PM

Counselling changed my daughter's life, and helped her through a really bad patch - she has 'mild' aspergers syndrome, and it helped her come to terms with her personality, and understand why others didnt understand her. I think they can be a positive thing, but often a painful one.
Cheers, Lucy


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:33 PM

Useful tools in the right hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:39 PM

I've tried everything: Reiki massage, Homeopathy, Yoga, Psychotherapeutic Counselling ... and that thing with needles ...(?)







Acupuncture?








No, heroin ...


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Helen
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 05:53 PM

I have seen counsellors at four different times of my life, from late teenage to only about a year ago when I was told I was losing my job. The reasons over the years were mostly for issues relating to work.

I see good counsellors as good listeners who can help to unravel a problem, or often a set of entangled problems, help me to discover why I am in this situation, and importantly for me, help me to work out strategies for working through the problems to solutions. The good ones seem to be good at listening and asking pertinent questions. I have never heard one of them tell me what I "should" do. They have let me work out my own strategies but guided me towards better understanding of my own and other people's behaviour.

As Amos said - "what a difference in such a short time!". I've been to one counsellor who didn't know specifically about the situation I was in, i.e. I was being bullied at work by a very manipulative and nasty person, so I found it frustrating trying to talk to that counsellor, but she still provided a caring opportunity to talk about my problem.

I have never been to a psychiatrist, and psychiatry seems to be more about mental illness including prescribing medicines to try to correct or deal with the disease. A general practice doctor I was singularly unimpressed with tried to manipulate me into going to a psychiatrist, at the time that I was being bullied, by telling me that she (the psychiatrist) was a "counsellor, but she has a medical degree". No thanks!

I think that some people resist seeking help from counsellors, but if you can find a good counsellor the process can be very effective in a surprisingly short time. On the other hand, I have met some psychologists and/or counsellors who I wouldn't entrust my dog with.

Helen


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:09 PM

a chance to vent


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:22 PM

A good counsellor is one who listens, paraphrases, sympathises, empathises and helps the counsellee to solve their own problem without giving advice.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: frogprince
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 06:58 PM

I spent some fairly extensive time in counselling, and my only regret was that I didn't get to it earlier in life. I wasn't transformed into one of lifes' big "winners" by the experience, but I made big steps toward healthy self-respect, and left a good measure of tensions behind. One small specific thing: I had been prone to quite a few really horrific nightmares. I went home from a session one night, had the most beautiful dream of my life, and since then (30 years) I've had one single real nightmare, under very stressful conditions.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 07:04 PM

One way of getting to know yourself, there are other ways, you just have to find them.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 07:12 PM

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,the doc
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 08:38 PM

I think America.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 08:58 PM

My first reaction is a slightly negative one (based on past personal experience). This is followed by some further thought in which I acknowlege that there are some good spychotherapists and counsellors out there who will help you...as well as some who will waste a lot of your time and money and misdirect you and try to shove drugs down your throat. It's a mixed picture, in other words.

I then begin thinking about the fact that the more complex and decadent a society gets, the more it seems to employ such people...but that's not surprising.

I then think about how damned expensive they are.

Does that help?


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 09:57 PM

An academic psychologist of my acquaintance tells me that 'cognitive therapy' has the best track record. Since he's cautious about therapists in general, I'll go with that.

My own experience has been that they'll lie at the drop of a hat. "For your own good."


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Jim Lad
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 12:00 AM

An effective way to turn a couch into a springboard.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Bagpuss
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 03:41 AM

If you are planning on having some, read up on the type of pschotherapy practiced and see if it the sort of thing you are looking for. Someone who wants to look for repressed childhood causes for their misery will be very disappointed by cognitive therapy. I think though CBT is usually thought of as the most effective, a lot comes down to the skill of the therapist regardless of which tradition they are coming from.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 05:22 AM

It used to be said that, "them that can do ... them that can't, teach". I am sure that this is unfair to modern teachers, who do a difficult job under difficult circumstances.

A contemporary update on the above phrase might be, "them that can do ... them that can't, set themselves up as 'alternative therapists'". I wouldn't touch people with the proverbial 'barge pole'!

Therapy administered by trained professionals is a different matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Janie
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 06:21 AM

As a gross generalization, I think of psychotherapy as a process of increasing self-awareness, of bringing into full consciousness the intrapsychic factors and elements that inform the choices people make so that they can make more informed choices about their lives and themselves-such that they are better able to respond to what life brings rather than somewhat blindly react to what life brings.

I think of counseling as more confined to education and the teaching of problem-solving skills, and as much more directive than psychotherapy.

There is not a strict distinction between psychotherapy and counseling, and some of both probably occurs in most counseling or psychotherapy, except when the therapist is prone to adher to a very strict psychodynamic therapeutic modality.

Bagpuss, cognitive therapy may, in fact, address repressed childhood issues because one often will need to identify the basis for mistaken or ineffective beliefs about themselves and the world before they can be open to the idea of exchanging them for more functional beliefs.


Janie

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,Sparticus
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 06:30 AM

If you try either you need your head examined!


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 10:57 AM

1) tried counselling. Not a success. Doesn't work if you're manic (and therefore unreceptive to talking things over). It's a pour-your-heart-out thing, is counselling. That's my experience. The counsellors were student and then workplace counsellors.

2) currently undergoing therapy. Am on the NHS waiting list for CBT - waited 5 months for an assessment, now have to wait another 4-6 months for the CBT to start. Not exactly happening as and when it's needed. In the meantime I am seeing a crisis intervention service for therapy in a slim attempt to hold on to key things like careers and relationships and er, life. So far, so good, even if all I've experienced is someone with a German accent saying "tell me about your childhood" (ah, the cliché). Seems promising - I've been told that the therapist builds a picture of you and then explores what's causing stress.

3) I also have a psychiatrist (because of bipolar/manic depression) but he deals with medication issues and outpatient check-ups. He does the therapy referral.

4) don't normally post to BS threads anymore but if it's mental health related I do my damndest to talk about it because I hate to see stigma about mental health, hence the long and rambling post. Cheers.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 11:12 AM

Love, Hope, and Help in that order.
A.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 12:01 PM

What 3 words do you see in Hypnotherapist?


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 12:15 PM

I bet we would have never seen a single Woody Allen movie if it hadn't been for counseling.
IT sure seems to support productivity among artists and writers.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: autolycus
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 12:23 PM

I'm very grateful for your replies so far,and I'm a little taken aback and pleased at the large number of positive experiences people have talked about.

   Yes my opener was indirect. As a therapist,my job is not to tell people what to think,and that tendency spills over. [I haven't spotted the ambiguity.]

   What you've written has,as usual,clarified my thoughts,so thanks for that.

   The views of those who have counselling/therapy experience is very interesting.


   I can see i was, and am, especially interested in the first responses of those who have no such experience. And I still am.

   Personally,I can't remember what I thought about them before my late 20s when i first started doing 'groups' - I don't think they even got on my dial.






       Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 02:35 PM

Fibula, according to an email I got recently, 1 in 4 people is mentally ill- so take a look at three of your friends. If they are OK, you are it.

More truth than poetry to that message, I think. I have a bi-polar friend and life, itself, is very stressful for him. Why is it that so many bi-polar people are so bright? It seems to me that a little selective 'dimness' could be an easier way to go. He is aware of what happens to him but in the midst of an episode that knowledge doesn't really help.

The best of luck to you and to us all.

Eb


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 02:45 PM

I was an alternative therapist/hypnotherapist for 13 years.
I am glad I did it.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 02:51 PM

Hi Ebbie,
Well, I have a really good friend who is also bipolar, so statistically I can say I have at least 8 friends, which is nice :)

The therapist I spoke to today was talking about the danger of labels - I think perhaps a warning not to pigeonhole ourselves as being certain things (perhaps Ivor can expand on that). Me, I'm personally a little glad of labels. When I looked through the list of symptoms and said "yup" to every single one of them it was like I'd finally discovered I wasn't the freak I thought I was - there was an identifiable diagnosis for what was wrong.

But yes, good luck to us all. The world can be a pretty rough place, and it's nice to know there's help out there, however dark it seems at times.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 02:51 PM

(Seven friends. I can't count.)


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 04:11 PM

Labia


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: redsnapper
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 05:51 PM

I have had a total of six years psychotherapy with a very-well qualified, experienced and open-minded (with regard to methodologies) psychiatrist for bouts of depression spread over the past 16 years.

For me it has been a very positive and helpful experience but, as has been said before in this thread, it doesn't work for everyone.

The situation in the UK national health system is generally woeful in regard to mental health, which is a scandal considering the number of people afflicted by depression.

RS


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 07:18 PM

Sux to be us.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: autolycus
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 07:32 PM

The kind of therapy I do is Gestalt. Gestalt is a German word meaning,v.v.roughly 'pattern' or 'form'.

    The point is that we all make gestalts all the time,that is,we shape our experience,however incomplete the data,cos we want to make sense of our experience. 'Labelling' does the same job with a name. A problem with labelling is that a word can be a replacement for actual,lived experience. Labelling can also involve jumping to (the wrong) conclusion.

    And from my therapy experience,labels really are not the point. the point - no - a point,is what is the experience,how are you experiencing,what is happening? etc. etc.

    And talking of realising,"Wow,I'm not a freak!",that was a revelation for me when I started going to groups. Someone would talk about a problem,quite in a spirit of 'I'm alone with this.' Then Another would say words to the effect of "Me too",to mutual amazement.

   I think people usually start this kind of work thinking they are the only one with their problem(s)






       Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 03:28 AM

Americans who've found another way to get your money.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 04:05 AM

Had a bit of both as a child and as an adult.

As a child, it was because I'd declined the invitation to do schoolwork. The psychiatarist was a wizened old woman who seemed to have nothing in common with the human race, let alone her mainly adolescent patients. She sat on a chair that was higher than mine, she refused to meet my eyes, choosing to look downwards or sideways at me and told me I was a bright young girl with a good future ahead of me and why didn't I do my work? What she didn't know was that after the death of my brother and my sister joining the army, my parents had decreed that I would be the one who stayed at home to look after them - my life was planned for me, why bother to make it better? There was one session where we sat in absolute silence for an hour, my only comment being 'your calendar is out of date' as I left. I thought if I told her what was really wrong, she'd just turn round and tell my parents, which would be fatal for me. I don't feel we resolved anything as at 14, with a disabled mother and a violent father, I wasn't mentally mature or independant enough to realise I could make a change. That came later.

Subsequently, other suggestions of psychiatric help have been greeted with very mixed feelings. On the one hand, I feel it to be a complete waste of time (and money!) but then I think, they can't all be as bad as my first experience.

Counselling is another kettle of weasels. It seems that almost anyone can set up as a counsellor or consultant with no formal qualifications at all - at work in the Tax office I see their companies come and go with alacrity and usually an investigation.

I've used counsellors in my adult life for several reasons, sometimes an intermediary is an absolute necessity - friends and relatives are too close to be objective. My experience with them is that the advice they give can be good, but it's nigh impossible to do anything about it without causing more pain and upset to everyone, just to make you feel a bit better.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Black Beauty
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 05:27 AM

This is my profession you are talking about here.

Love
Charlotte


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 05:32 AM

I'm still interested in the views of those who haven't done any,even those who wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole.I'm wondering what they imagine it's about.

   Some of the posts have been very open and honest,and fair,and wise. To all posters so far,and I do mean 'all',may I thank you. Oh,why not,and to future posters,too.

   


   To a degree,agreed about looking into the subject to seek something appropriate,tho' people's unconscious sometimes does the job.


   i don't think it's the case that the therapy that does the work. If the client doesn't,then nothing will work. Lots do approach therapists/counsellors in the same spirit as when going to the doctor,i.e.'I'll tell you my problem;you fix it.' Bit of a mistake,tho' quite understandable.

It is an act of great bravery to go to a practitioner,one reason so many avoid it. In our technology/science/objectivity/observing culture,the self is a bit the last frontier. If not subject non grata. THE self - yes,fine;MYSELF? - I dawn't fink saw.

   The stuff about money is an interesting one. Personally,I'm amazed at how much people are prepared to spend on houses,clothes,technology,holidays,cars,hair etc.etc. And of course lots of people clearly have a lot of unexamined worries,problems,history and attitudes about money. Interesting what people value.






       Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Alec
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 06:05 AM

I have trained as a counsellor but have never practised as one to the exclusion of other work.
The simple reason for this is I believe counselling ought to be a specific task rather than an occupation in itself.
LTS's observation on her experience of some counsellor's from the perspective of the Inland Revenue is,sadly,an unsurprising one.
Something else LTS said is rather disquieting ...the advice they give can be good... it is a core principle of all forms of counselling that counsellors never act in an advisory capacity.
Individual Counsellors who disregard this are,by doing so,acting in bad faith.When this happens their services ought to be dispensed with.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:14 AM

Ivor, are a client's dreams (sleeping dreams) important in Gestalt therapy? Just wondering...

I like all the wisdom I see posted above re what makes a good counsellor ie ...it is a core principle of all forms of counselling that counsellors never act in an advisory capacity. Individual Counsellors who disregard this are,by doing so,acting in bad faith.When this happens their services ought to be dispensed with.

Right on.

Therapists must find their own personal integrity/issues tested every step of the way. They are dealing with injured people who have, typically, little to no self-esteem and therefore no relationship skills. Such injured ones tend to put people on pedestals, particularly anyone who even just sounds like they might care, have the answers and/or the 'cure' they need.

For the therapist, those pedestals must feel dizzying at times -- and if and when they ever lose their balance (being only human after all), its a long LONG way to fall ...

Just a few observations.

My kids and I had a wonderful counsellor for a few years -- a very caring man, a husband and father of three who did us, and a lot of other kids and families in this community a lot of good.

Last time I stopped by his office, hoping to just have a chance to say 'boo' cuz it had been a few years, I was so saddened and shocked to learn he'd committed suicide. (Didn't tell me that at the office of course, just that he'd passed on and I found out later why ...)

:-(

Therapists don't have it easy, folks. Especially those who work for gov't agencies, swamped to overflowing with the most troubled of folk. Our counsellor was supervisor/director of one such agency.

So take care of yourselves, be discerning -- but please, give 'em a break.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:24 AM

Actually, ALec, I don't believe this is a core precept in all kinds of counseling -- only the good ones. It stems from a deep understanding of the value of restoring complete sovereignty to the individual's own being. It is much easier of course, to slip in a few "better ideas" so the individual getspropped up, but it is a long-term disservice, since telling him or her what to think is exactly what the world has done since year 1. This insight is amjor fundamental, for example, in ROgerian therapies -- client-centered and cognitive.

THere are some fields of couseling -- marriage counseling comes to mind, where the practitioner feels more at liberty to prescribe. I have no experience or statistics with how effective this may be, but I can't say I have heard of smashing results from them.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 12:08 PM

I does your bloody head in. Don't do it.

Sal


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 12:47 PM

Gee, Sal,

I know a lot of people who have benefited from different kinds. Why do you assume that it is universally true that "it does your head in".? Is this personal experience?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: kendall
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 01:07 PM

I think of my ex wife. There were some things she did very well, this is one of them.

To the skoffers, when your car breaks down, or your TV quits, do you fix it yourself? Do you keep driving or watching it like nothing is wrong? Do you pretend that everyone else is nuts?

The human mind is a damn sight more complex than a car or a TV set. Of course there are quacks out there, the kind who don't fix your car but charge you anyway, and there are therapists who should be mechanics.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 01:32 PM

The reason people are more willing to spend money on a lot of those other things, Autolycus, is that those other things are mostly tangible things....and therefore you know exactly what you're getting when you pay for them. That's a good feeling.

It's much harder to assess what you're getting in the case of an intangible business like psychotherapy...and when it's done, you may still not be sure whether it helped you...or made things worse.

I went to a therapist for 2 or 3 years just because I'd heard something good about her from someone else (rather than because I was facing any real personal crisis of my own at the time), spent a hell of a lot of money, ended up confused, devastated, and disillusioned about my life, and by the conclusion of it all was pretty sure that she had done considerably more harm than good in my particular case (although I believe her intentions were of the best, I think she had some problems of her own that were muddying the waters....in other words, I think she was mistakenly seeing her own past personal childhood traumas reflected in the lives of her clients, myself included. A classic case of transference...or is it "projection"?)

If I am right, it would rank among the biggest wastage of time and money that I have ever experienced.

And the really annoying thing is, I may never know for 100% sure if I am right, because, as I said, therapy is a very intangible business. There always remains that little shadow of doubt in the back of the mind..."Maybe, despite the fact that I am 98% certain she was wrong about that, she might have been right."

It's enough to put someone in therapy. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 01:38 PM

Well there we have it the usual mix of extremes and sense. The normal response to anything we can't easily quantify.
Although put down as a modern expensive fad, over the years therapy in its many forms has helped save countless souls who would otherwise be lost to us.
If is not for you then don't go there. I promise not to go Bunjee jumping or Potholing or even consult with a Mystic or Tarot card reader. But I wont insult you if you do. My extensive, albeit mostly second hand, dealings with head menders has shown me the enourmous good thay can do.
Mental Health care in the UK is sadly underfunded but then so are many aspects of the Health Service. I do think though that those who work in this field are the finest in the world.

Andy


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 02:21 PM

LH, thanks for that.

About the tangibility,I can see that. I thought another reason for those expenditures were to help people be happy or satisfied. Well,maybe.

Getting satisfactory counselling/therapy is a difficult business,and there are no pat answers. You'll have seen from other postings that people can achieve much in the way of improvement,help,development,enlightenment/realisation,release etc.,so such is clearly possible.

The whole area is as unstraightforward as people.

*daylia* dreams CAN be important in Gestalt. Nothing just plain 'is' or 'isn't' important.

in my training,I worked on a dream of my own (in my training,working on yourself is a requirement),which led to a breakthru.

Working on dreams can lead to a-ha experiences,when the client makes unexpected connections,or can just reach ,say. a core issue that has never gone away. Something trivial like that. **grin**.






    Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Janie
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 02:51 PM

I consider there to be a difference between counseling and psychotherapy. It is never appropriate or good to give advice in psychotherapy. However, when doing supportive counseling, there are times, or certain populations, when advice giving is entirely appropriate. And when one works with disadvantaged populations, where multiple needs and environmental issues strongly impinge on the emotional health and well-being of the client, one rarely has a purely psychotherapeutic relationship with a client.

Rich or poor, or in between, my impressions of people on Mudcat (people who have computers) is they have the basic skills and, much more importantly, the knowledgej they need to navigate our society and institutions. I think most of you do not know just how priviledged you are. I do not hesitate to advise a developmentally disabled client on what to do about an eviction notice. I'll give advice in a heartbeat to a woman with a 6th grade education on who and how to approach her son's school to get help for him, etc. I do not hesitate to engage in advocacy with other agencies and institutions on behalf of many of my clients. What IS bad practice, is to tell people what they should do in relationships or regarding life decisions, etc., etc.

When it comes to very practical matters, the 'worried well' or the person with sufficient material resources to survive, can afford to learn from bad choices. The many people who are marginalized in our society, don't have that luxury.

My client and I will worry about 'complete sovereignty over one's being' once basic survival needs are assured.

How much psychic energy do you suppose a woman with PTSD has to give to working through her trauma when her kids are hungry, the water is about to be cut off, and she doesn't have the gas money to get to the doctor for treatment of her diabetes?

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Janie
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 02:56 PM

Ivor--I think I just inadvertently tried to hijack your thread. My comments are really off topic in terms of what you are doing here. I apologize.

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 03:31 PM

I think seriously that it depends on the ego of the counsellor/psychotherapist.

If they are listening and helping you to untangle your thoughts then great.

If they are taking the opportunity to indulge their own self importance then they aren't going to be of much use at all.



Just like evry other field of endevour really.



Likewise with the patient. If they are serious about discovering how to evolve and cope they will progress much better than someone who enjoys nothing more than a good whinge about their unique, inexplicably complicated mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 05:24 PM

Janie,as the Aussies say,"No worries,mate." Tho' that was very thoughtful of you. I appreciate your post.

   i doubt there'll many more responses from people with no experience of counselling/psych.

   We Gestaltists aren't great ones for rules !!

    GUEST lox,you have a point. If only the public knew the hoops and mills that echt therapists put themselves thru to maintain ethical standards,be satisfactory at their job,and keep client confidentiality !! Which has to be for clients to begin to start to feel safe. Vital,vital,vital.






       Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 06:52 PM

Yes, it would be quite challenging. I was always well aware of that aspect of the job.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 06:55 PM

In Commonwealth English, words that end in -l preceded by a vowel usually double the -l when a suffix is added, while in American English the letter is not doubled.   However, for words where two –ll's are preceded by a vowel, the American spelling will retain the doubled consonants when a suffix is added, but, in Commonwealth English, the second –l is dropped when a suffix is added, as in enrollment/ enrolment, fulfill/ fulfil, skillful/ skilful.

Or so it seems this day. (Please don't let me cause thread drift either.)


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 07:00 PM

(oops fulfill/ fulfil doesn't even fit. I'll suffer with that separately.)


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Hawker
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 07:09 PM

Miskin Man, I entirely agree ~ and certainly from my experience, no money was paid for the service.
I never dismiss anything out of hand, but like others have said, good mechanic / bad mechanic.......
Cheers, Lucy


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 07:29 PM

Janie, that's exactly the point I was trying to observe - psychotherapy and counselling are two entirely different things. The dictionary definition of counsel is 'advice', and a counsellor is 'one who gives advice'.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: autolycus
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 06:21 AM

There is counselling and counselling.

    A notable Dictionary of Counselling (defines words and phrases like 'core conditions','judgementalism','potential','facilitate','put-down'etc.) by Colin Feltham and Windy Dryden says about 'counselling',

    "this term has a variety of meanings (and some of them are       problematic)" and,in part,continues,
    "(Counselling's) predominant ethos is one
   of facilitation rather than of advice-giving".

   
   So you can see that information about the many counsellings and therapies are readily available,even on the similarities and differences between the 'two'.






      Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: heric
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 10:44 AM

(and there's counseling)


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Cruiser
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 04:55 PM

Well, I have not required either YET, however that does not mean that I, perhaps, have not needed them.

I made the grave error of telling the last young lady I really cared for, in a moment of anger, that she must be "bipolar", just because she disagreed with me! That girl has given me the "silent treatment" and has not spoken to me in many months and I doubt she will ever again speak to me. That could just not happen to me, why, I never! Now, who is it that is "crazy" here? That would be me, of course.

The real reason I posted to this thread is to acknowledge the bravery displayed Fibs, LH, and others. You most likely help others that have struggled with such issues, some privately and painfully.

Medical science and research are slowly taking the social stigma away from conditions caused by chemical imbalances and lowered activity in some areas of the brain that contribute to such psychological ailments. Your genome also plays a large factor that predisposes any person to these disorders; and that is no one's fault. The concept of "no-fault" is helpful because we all have "disorders" whether physical or psychological. We are all full of junk DNA no matter how perfect, beautiful, or cocky we may be or appear to be.

Even my off-the-cuff, stupid, unkind remark of her being "bipolar" caused me us both pain even though neither of us have the condition…at least as far as I know! No, I ain't agonna get tested!

Humbly…

Uh, can some of you women explain just how it is that you can give us men the silent treatment for so long a time? Surely, you cannot be as strong-willed as men are!

I really would like an explanation and a solution of taking back what I said, if there is one and such take backs are possible. (Gee, I guess I am sorta asking for counseling here for the first time, from the "experts")


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 05:05 PM

I think butterflies are beautiful.

They inspire such great music as the Irish "chune", The Butterfly.

The best therapists are the ones that help their patients to become independent people who can function productively in the real world.

You don't go to the doctor to stay sick.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 06:05 PM

I was diagnosed as a Psycho-Ceramic!



(SCROLL DOWN)























translates to crackpot!!
Art


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 08:30 PM

Hey, Cruiser...women, in my experience, are MORE strong-willed than men about anything they really care about. Sometimes about trivial things too. ;-) The "silent" treatment is a devastating tactic indeed, and a very effective one. You have to be totally insensitive to be immune to its effects, and relatively few men are totally insensitive...heh! (I couldn't help thinking of Shane as I typed that. He IS totally insensitive.)

Now here's my take on it. A lot of people have depression. My guess is that at least 50% of the people in our society suffer from depression sometimes, and 50% of those suffer from it a great deal of the time to the point that it really messes up their lives. But....I don't think it's due to bad genes or chemical imbalance.

Nope. I think it's due either to:

1. Things that are actually going on in the person's life which make that person feel powerless, thwarted, or blocked...and which that person can't find a solution for or figure out how to cope with.

2. Emotional damage that the person suffered in childhood and suppressed, instead of dealing with it in a healthy way. Again...the child was usually feeling powerless, thwarted, mistreated, and blocked....usually by other people...and could not find a solution. The child coped by holding in the anger, humiliation, frustration, and hurt and buried it deep. This later comes out in all kind of nasty ways, and depression is just one of them. It also causes a variety of both minor and major physical ailments, and it causes a lot of violence, law-breaking, addiction, emtional violence, and negative behaviour of all kinds.

Now a therapist, if he or she is a good one, has the job of helping a person bring forth those things and clear them out of the system and find more healthy ways of emotionally coping.

I am not a bit surprised that many people are depressed. It would be more surprising if they weren't. As for the chemical imbalances, in my opinion they are usually an aftereffect OF the depressed thinking patterns affecting the body, rather than the other way around.


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Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: autolycus
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 05:00 PM

Such take backs are possible but there's no guarantee.

   Which is par for the course,I guess.




   I do hope anyone who hasn't yet responded to my opener will , whenever they feel like it.




   The quality of the posting has been wonderful to behold.






       Ivor


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