BS: psychotherapy/counselling

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Alec
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 06:05 AM

I have trained as a counsellor but have never practised as one to the exclusion of other work.
The simple reason for this is I believe counselling ought to be a specific task rather than an occupation in itself.
LTS's observation on her experience of some counsellor's from the perspective of the Inland Revenue is,sadly,an unsurprising one.
Something else LTS said is rather disquieting ...the advice they give can be good... it is a core principle of all forms of counselling that counsellors never act in an advisory capacity.
Individual Counsellors who disregard this are,by doing so,acting in bad faith.When this happens their services ought to be dispensed with.

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:14 AM

Ivor, are a client's dreams (sleeping dreams) important in Gestalt therapy? Just wondering...

I like all the wisdom I see posted above re what makes a good counsellor ie ...it is a core principle of all forms of counselling that counsellors never act in an advisory capacity. Individual Counsellors who disregard this are,by doing so,acting in bad faith.When this happens their services ought to be dispensed with.

Right on.

Therapists must find their own personal integrity/issues tested every step of the way. They are dealing with injured people who have, typically, little to no self-esteem and therefore no relationship skills. Such injured ones tend to put people on pedestals, particularly anyone who even just sounds like they might care, have the answers and/or the 'cure' they need.

For the therapist, those pedestals must feel dizzying at times -- and if and when they ever lose their balance (being only human after all), its a long LONG way to fall ...

Just a few observations.

My kids and I had a wonderful counsellor for a few years -- a very caring man, a husband and father of three who did us, and a lot of other kids and families in this community a lot of good.

Last time I stopped by his office, hoping to just have a chance to say 'boo' cuz it had been a few years, I was so saddened and shocked to learn he'd committed suicide. (Didn't tell me that at the office of course, just that he'd passed on and I found out later why ...)

:-(

Therapists don't have it easy, folks. Especially those who work for gov't agencies, swamped to overflowing with the most troubled of folk. Our counsellor was supervisor/director of one such agency.

So take care of yourselves, be discerning -- but please, give 'em a break.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:24 AM

Actually, ALec, I don't believe this is a core precept in all kinds of counseling -- only the good ones. It stems from a deep understanding of the value of restoring complete sovereignty to the individual's own being. It is much easier of course, to slip in a few "better ideas" so the individual getspropped up, but it is a long-term disservice, since telling him or her what to think is exactly what the world has done since year 1. This insight is amjor fundamental, for example, in ROgerian therapies -- client-centered and cognitive.

THere are some fields of couseling -- marriage counseling comes to mind, where the practitioner feels more at liberty to prescribe. I have no experience or statistics with how effective this may be, but I can't say I have heard of smashing results from them.

A

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 12:08 PM

I does your bloody head in. Don't do it.

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 12:47 PM

Gee, Sal,

I know a lot of people who have benefited from different kinds. Why do you assume that it is universally true that "it does your head in".? Is this personal experience?

A

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: kendall
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 01:07 PM

I think of my ex wife. There were some things she did very well, this is one of them.

To the skoffers, when your car breaks down, or your TV quits, do you fix it yourself? Do you keep driving or watching it like nothing is wrong? Do you pretend that everyone else is nuts?

The human mind is a damn sight more complex than a car or a TV set. Of course there are quacks out there, the kind who don't fix your car but charge you anyway, and there are therapists who should be mechanics.

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 01:32 PM

The reason people are more willing to spend money on a lot of those other things, Autolycus, is that those other things are mostly tangible things....and therefore you know exactly what you're getting when you pay for them. That's a good feeling.

It's much harder to assess what you're getting in the case of an intangible business like psychotherapy...and when it's done, you may still not be sure whether it helped you...or made things worse.

I went to a therapist for 2 or 3 years just because I'd heard something good about her from someone else (rather than because I was facing any real personal crisis of my own at the time), spent a hell of a lot of money, ended up confused, devastated, and disillusioned about my life, and by the conclusion of it all was pretty sure that she had done considerably more harm than good in my particular case (although I believe her intentions were of the best, I think she had some problems of her own that were muddying the waters....in other words, I think she was mistakenly seeing her own past personal childhood traumas reflected in the lives of her clients, myself included. A classic case of transference...or is it "projection"?)

If I am right, it would rank among the biggest wastage of time and money that I have ever experienced.

And the really annoying thing is, I may never know for 100% sure if I am right, because, as I said, therapy is a very intangible business. There always remains that little shadow of doubt in the back of the mind..."Maybe, despite the fact that I am 98% certain she was wrong about that, she might have been right."

It's enough to put someone in therapy. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 01:38 PM

Well there we have it the usual mix of extremes and sense. The normal response to anything we can't easily quantify.
Although put down as a modern expensive fad, over the years therapy in its many forms has helped save countless souls who would otherwise be lost to us.
If is not for you then don't go there. I promise not to go Bunjee jumping or Potholing or even consult with a Mystic or Tarot card reader. But I wont insult you if you do. My extensive, albeit mostly second hand, dealings with head menders has shown me the enourmous good thay can do.
Mental Health care in the UK is sadly underfunded but then so are many aspects of the Health Service. I do think though that those who work in this field are the finest in the world.

Andy

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 02:21 PM

LH, thanks for that.

About the tangibility,I can see that. I thought another reason for those expenditures were to help people be happy or satisfied. Well,maybe.

Getting satisfactory counselling/therapy is a difficult business,and there are no pat answers. You'll have seen from other postings that people can achieve much in the way of improvement,help,development,enlightenment/realisation,release etc.,so such is clearly possible.

The whole area is as unstraightforward as people.

*daylia* dreams CAN be important in Gestalt. Nothing just plain 'is' or 'isn't' important.

in my training,I worked on a dream of my own (in my training,working on yourself is a requirement),which led to a breakthru.

Working on dreams can lead to a-ha experiences,when the client makes unexpected connections,or can just reach ,say. a core issue that has never gone away. Something trivial like that. **grin**.






    Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Janie
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 02:51 PM

I consider there to be a difference between counseling and psychotherapy. It is never appropriate or good to give advice in psychotherapy. However, when doing supportive counseling, there are times, or certain populations, when advice giving is entirely appropriate. And when one works with disadvantaged populations, where multiple needs and environmental issues strongly impinge on the emotional health and well-being of the client, one rarely has a purely psychotherapeutic relationship with a client.

Rich or poor, or in between, my impressions of people on Mudcat (people who have computers) is they have the basic skills and, much more importantly, the knowledgej they need to navigate our society and institutions. I think most of you do not know just how priviledged you are. I do not hesitate to advise a developmentally disabled client on what to do about an eviction notice. I'll give advice in a heartbeat to a woman with a 6th grade education on who and how to approach her son's school to get help for him, etc. I do not hesitate to engage in advocacy with other agencies and institutions on behalf of many of my clients. What IS bad practice, is to tell people what they should do in relationships or regarding life decisions, etc., etc.

When it comes to very practical matters, the 'worried well' or the person with sufficient material resources to survive, can afford to learn from bad choices. The many people who are marginalized in our society, don't have that luxury.

My client and I will worry about 'complete sovereignty over one's being' once basic survival needs are assured.

How much psychic energy do you suppose a woman with PTSD has to give to working through her trauma when her kids are hungry, the water is about to be cut off, and she doesn't have the gas money to get to the doctor for treatment of her diabetes?

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Janie
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 02:56 PM

Ivor--I think I just inadvertently tried to hijack your thread. My comments are really off topic in terms of what you are doing here. I apologize.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 03:31 PM

I think seriously that it depends on the ego of the counsellor/psychotherapist.

If they are listening and helping you to untangle your thoughts then great.

If they are taking the opportunity to indulge their own self importance then they aren't going to be of much use at all.



Just like evry other field of endevour really.



Likewise with the patient. If they are serious about discovering how to evolve and cope they will progress much better than someone who enjoys nothing more than a good whinge about their unique, inexplicably complicated mind.

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 05:24 PM

Janie,as the Aussies say,"No worries,mate." Tho' that was very thoughtful of you. I appreciate your post.

   i doubt there'll many more responses from people with no experience of counselling/psych.

   We Gestaltists aren't great ones for rules !!

    GUEST lox,you have a point. If only the public knew the hoops and mills that echt therapists put themselves thru to maintain ethical standards,be satisfactory at their job,and keep client confidentiality !! Which has to be for clients to begin to start to feel safe. Vital,vital,vital.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 06:52 PM

Yes, it would be quite challenging. I was always well aware of that aspect of the job.

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 06:55 PM

In Commonwealth English, words that end in -l preceded by a vowel usually double the -l when a suffix is added, while in American English the letter is not doubled.   However, for words where two –ll's are preceded by a vowel, the American spelling will retain the doubled consonants when a suffix is added, but, in Commonwealth English, the second –l is dropped when a suffix is added, as in enrollment/ enrolment, fulfill/ fulfil, skillful/ skilful.

Or so it seems this day. (Please don't let me cause thread drift either.)

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 07:00 PM

(oops fulfill/ fulfil doesn't even fit. I'll suffer with that separately.)

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Hawker
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 07:09 PM

Miskin Man, I entirely agree ~ and certainly from my experience, no money was paid for the service.
I never dismiss anything out of hand, but like others have said, good mechanic / bad mechanic.......
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 07:29 PM

Janie, that's exactly the point I was trying to observe - psychotherapy and counselling are two entirely different things. The dictionary definition of counsel is 'advice', and a counsellor is 'one who gives advice'.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: autolycus
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 06:21 AM

There is counselling and counselling.

    A notable Dictionary of Counselling (defines words and phrases like 'core conditions','judgementalism','potential','facilitate','put-down'etc.) by Colin Feltham and Windy Dryden says about 'counselling',

    "this term has a variety of meanings (and some of them are       problematic)" and,in part,continues,
    "(Counselling's) predominant ethos is one
   of facilitation rather than of advice-giving".

   
   So you can see that information about the many counsellings and therapies are readily available,even on the similarities and differences between the 'two'.






      Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: heric
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 10:44 AM

(and there's counseling)

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Cruiser
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 04:55 PM

Well, I have not required either YET, however that does not mean that I, perhaps, have not needed them.

I made the grave error of telling the last young lady I really cared for, in a moment of anger, that she must be "bipolar", just because she disagreed with me! That girl has given me the "silent treatment" and has not spoken to me in many months and I doubt she will ever again speak to me. That could just not happen to me, why, I never! Now, who is it that is "crazy" here? That would be me, of course.

The real reason I posted to this thread is to acknowledge the bravery displayed Fibs, LH, and others. You most likely help others that have struggled with such issues, some privately and painfully.

Medical science and research are slowly taking the social stigma away from conditions caused by chemical imbalances and lowered activity in some areas of the brain that contribute to such psychological ailments. Your genome also plays a large factor that predisposes any person to these disorders; and that is no one's fault. The concept of "no-fault" is helpful because we all have "disorders" whether physical or psychological. We are all full of junk DNA no matter how perfect, beautiful, or cocky we may be or appear to be.

Even my off-the-cuff, stupid, unkind remark of her being "bipolar" caused me us both pain even though neither of us have the condition…at least as far as I know! No, I ain't agonna get tested!

Humbly…

Uh, can some of you women explain just how it is that you can give us men the silent treatment for so long a time? Surely, you cannot be as strong-willed as men are!

I really would like an explanation and a solution of taking back what I said, if there is one and such take backs are possible. (Gee, I guess I am sorta asking for counseling here for the first time, from the "experts")

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 05:05 PM

I think butterflies are beautiful.

They inspire such great music as the Irish "chune", The Butterfly.

The best therapists are the ones that help their patients to become independent people who can function productively in the real world.

You don't go to the doctor to stay sick.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 06:05 PM

I was diagnosed as a Psycho-Ceramic!



(SCROLL DOWN)























translates to crackpot!!
Art

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 08:30 PM

Hey, Cruiser...women, in my experience, are MORE strong-willed than men about anything they really care about. Sometimes about trivial things too. ;-) The "silent" treatment is a devastating tactic indeed, and a very effective one. You have to be totally insensitive to be immune to its effects, and relatively few men are totally insensitive...heh! (I couldn't help thinking of Shane as I typed that. He IS totally insensitive.)

Now here's my take on it. A lot of people have depression. My guess is that at least 50% of the people in our society suffer from depression sometimes, and 50% of those suffer from it a great deal of the time to the point that it really messes up their lives. But....I don't think it's due to bad genes or chemical imbalance.

Nope. I think it's due either to:

1. Things that are actually going on in the person's life which make that person feel powerless, thwarted, or blocked...and which that person can't find a solution for or figure out how to cope with.

2. Emotional damage that the person suffered in childhood and suppressed, instead of dealing with it in a healthy way. Again...the child was usually feeling powerless, thwarted, mistreated, and blocked....usually by other people...and could not find a solution. The child coped by holding in the anger, humiliation, frustration, and hurt and buried it deep. This later comes out in all kind of nasty ways, and depression is just one of them. It also causes a variety of both minor and major physical ailments, and it causes a lot of violence, law-breaking, addiction, emtional violence, and negative behaviour of all kinds.

Now a therapist, if he or she is a good one, has the job of helping a person bring forth those things and clear them out of the system and find more healthy ways of emotionally coping.

I am not a bit surprised that many people are depressed. It would be more surprising if they weren't. As for the chemical imbalances, in my opinion they are usually an aftereffect OF the depressed thinking patterns affecting the body, rather than the other way around.

Subject: RE: BS: psychotherapy/counselling
From: autolycus
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 05:00 PM

Such take backs are possible but there's no guarantee.

   Which is par for the course,I guess.




   I do hope anyone who hasn't yet responded to my opener will , whenever they feel like it.




   The quality of the posting has been wonderful to behold.






       Ivor