St. Patrick's Day Etiquite

Subject: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 05:59 PM

Not sure I spelled that right. Anyway, time for the annual sensitivity class. In a nutshell, it is not nice to make fun of Irish-Americans who celebrate St. Patrick's day in a way that more sophisticate people find amusing and worthy of disdain and snooty comments. Just not necessary. Just stay away from the pubs with the shamrock on the door and stay away from the Catholic churches and nursing homes and grade schools and you probably won't be contaminated by inferior music (well, I like it) and green beer and people wearing green sparkly hats and kiss me I'm Irish buttons. Stay in all day if you must. Stay off public transportation because a lot of people ride the bus to the parades. Take a roundabout way to work if your office is on a parade route.

And don't take a paying gig if the very thought of the music the old people have come to hear doesn't meet your high standards. These songs are hauled out once a year and have great meaning to people who want to assemble and sing them..maybe for the last time. This is a huge chunk of culture, not ancient culture, but a culture that was broken by a famine and a civil war and immigration and all sorts of hardships..anyway, it did not die a natural death. It has been killed off to a great extent by snooty people. It is sad.

I for one would love to have a place to go where people would sing it's the same old shileleigh my father brought from Ireland, and who threw the overalls in Mrs. Murphy's chowder and gone are the days of the Kerry dancers and dear old Donegal....I don't even bother to go where they get people who say that's not what they sing in Ireland ...like, so???

It really insults our families and our ancestors when people do that. I take it very seriously. mg

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Jim Lad
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 06:04 PM

Two days of the year when I never listen to radio. St. Patrick's day & Robert Burns day. I just find the fake accents, insulting.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Jim Lad
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 06:06 PM

Mind you, I'm not sure that this one doesn't belong in the BS threads.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 06:10 PM

fine with me...

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Greg B
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 06:14 PM

When puking on your boots, make sure they're YOUR boots.

Another one to live by.

Oh, and don't request Danny Boy more than ten times per hour.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 06:17 PM

What's wrong with puking on some one else's boots? It's better than dirtying my own.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 06:20 PM

We'll be at a quilt show in Twin Falls, Idaho. On the way to and from we'll probably listen to Irish music. There's a nice restaurant in Twin where you can really Thai one on...we'll probably dine there.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 06:21 PM

You have the wrong preposition, Amergin. It's IN, not ON.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Stewart
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 06:42 PM

I'd just as soon stay away from drunks in bars (at least to keep my boots clean). But we did go to a retirement home last St. Paddy's Day and it was an enjoyable experience - green hats and all. Sang some songs I would never sing anywhere else, like Danny Boy(can't believe I did that!). It was great and the residents really enjoyed it. We've been there on other occasions and it's always fun - you can't really do anything wrong, they enjoy it just the same. The last time we talked to a ninety-some year old lady, a former musician who was quite with it, and she also enjoyed our music.

But I'd just as soon stay out of the bars on that day. Even though I perform in bars under other circumstances.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Greg B
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 06:58 PM

Rapaire--- anybody who tucks his pants inside his boots in a pub is a
C&W poppinjay who deserves what he gets. :-)

Worn properly, boots are immune from internal invasion. That's
rather the point. Otherwise, we may as well just wear clogs, but
I'll leave the debate on the merits to Lancashire vs. New Mexico.

Stewart, there's not a thing wrong with 'Danny Boy.' Once. Per
night. Or fortnight as the case may be. It sells lots of drinks.

Nor with 'Roddy McCorley.' In fact, most of the 'Irish Standards'
are just damned fine singing; that's how they became standards.

In fact I'll admit that I enjoy a Clancy Bros. cover band, six
pints of Guinness, a plate of Irish stew, an obscure mix of Bailey's,
Irish Mist, and Jamison's and a designated driver home as much as the
next guy in a green felt bowler hat.

But I promise, yes I truly promise, that I won't ever, ever,
request 'Danny Boy.'

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Stewart
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 07:31 PM

Yes, the last time I was in Ireland, playing with a local session, a punter (probably an American tourist) came up and asked if they could play Danny Boy. The session host said she really didn't know the song, then looked at me, the innocent from abroad, and asked if I knew it. Of course I said no. What else could I say?

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:13 PM

If you are the 'visitor' at a session Stewart , in MY book you are obliged to play all the Crap that get requested , just to take the pressure off the locals for that one night !!

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Stewart
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:26 PM

I just had to get them off the hook on that one, and really I didn't have the nerve to sing it in Matt Molloy's bar.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:44 PM

I will be going to a bisexual brunch & a filk house concert. However, I will dig a green turtleneck out of the bin. I have no known ancestor named O'Malley, but a couple of branches of my mother's family have been in America since before the Revolution. Likewise the Irish. So saying I had no Irish ancestry would be saying something about who slept with whom over the last 300 years.

Believe it or not, not everyone has been overexposed to the Derry Air. It's just a pretty tune to me.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:00 PM

A lot of you seem to have missed the point of mg's post that started this thread - or else you're trying to insult him and his people deliberately (Joe F possibly excepted!).

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Stewart
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:22 PM

I'm not trying to insult Mary (not him) or her people. In fact I respect Mary and her people. I just don't respect the drunks.

When I was visiting Ireland, people would ask me if I had Irish ancestors. I would answer, "no, my people just came and burned and pillaged... they were the Vikings." After a short pause the would say "that's okay, that was a long time ago. Now, if you were English..." After all, the city of Dublin was founded by Norwegians, and a lot of Norwegian genes got mixed with the Irish. I have a great affinity with the Irish.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Jim Lad
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 10:12 PM

I know I didn't insult anyone, meself but judging by GUEST,mg's response to me, I did miss the point.
I'll be playing on the 15th & 17th and "Danny Boy" will be treated with the same respect, I have always given it. (Way down in "C" where anyone and everyone can easily join in)
But I still won't be assaulted by the various phony accents on NPR, CBC, BBC or any other broadcast. There's a limit.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Padre
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 12:19 AM

I'll be performing at a retirement home on Friday - and I'll do a lot of the 'commercial' Irish songs because that's what the folks there enjoy.

Padre (who's really only 1/4 Irish)

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 02:44 AM

I'm not 100% sure what the OP was saying - whether he (or she?) is complaining about the 'fake Irishness' of many St Patrick's Day celebrations, or about people who make fun of that.

Even in Dublin, there's a lot of the 'fake Irishness' in certain pubs (etc.) aimed at tourists, and gift shops selling all kinds of Irish souvenirs (fake shillelaghs, 'leprechaun' hats, etc.). I think this is all good fun, while being a bit tacky in taste terms, but I think people who don't like all that should lighten up. If I go to a bar and they're singing Danny Boy, If You're Irish..., When Irish Eyes Are Smiling, etc., then I don't mind, I'll join in with the rest and enjoy myself. I know it's not 'proper' Irish music and I'd rather be in a pub where there's a session on, but that doesn't mean I can't see the enjoyable side of it.

I think it's good that so many people, even those who aren't Irish, are happy to join in the celebrations.

Sorry if I've misunderstood your point, OP.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: mg
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 03:33 AM

i THINK A Lot of what is called fake Irish is quite legitimate Irish-American behavior and culture and therefore not to be rediculed. A nwe culture did develop here and yes, people enjoyed music hall songs and there were corrupt politicians etc. and people clung to little fragments of what came down from the ages...much, very much, of ;which was not talked about since the famine experience was so traumatic. So think of who you are making fun of...my ancestors for sure. My father only seemed to know two songs and one was MacNamara's band. You needn't make fun of him, or me for singing it and I can assure you there are many many people who seem to find it part of the Saint Patrick's day experience, which they are under no obligation to participate in, to put down those who want to celebrate it more or less like their grandparents did. mg

PS my grandfather had a shileleigh and my grandmother made lace. mg

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 03:38 AM

I'm taking part in 4 St Paddy's concerts over 3 weeks and looking forward to every sentimental second of it! I'm half Irish, but not born, raised or even visited Ireland. Yet when I sing "Whiskey in the Jar" a tiny hint of accent appears and it ain't deliberate. Go figure.

Off on another tangent - when driving through Oklahoma on my way to Austin several years ago a local radio station was trying to celebrate St Paddy by playing that fine old Irish ballad, "Broom o' the Cowdenknowes"! Oy vay!

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 05:31 PM

There's no Irish evident in the St. Patrick's Day festivities in Sacramento. It's just a day to go out drinking - and other people had best stay off the highways.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 05:38 PM

He bwas Welsh.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 05:39 PM

Why did he have a Latin name? mg

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Peace
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 01:53 AM

He wrote in Latin as did most people connected with the church in those days. "Confessio" which he penned in 450 was done in Latin. Latin was the language of 'scholarship' back then. Even Caxton in the late 1400s printed some books in Latin.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Amergin
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 03:17 AM

Many Britons in those days had latin names, due to Roman influence.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:39 PM

Back froma long Mudcat Sabbitical - just time for me to pop in for the annual St. Patrick's day Discussion! It never does me any good to try and explain that most revellers drinking Green beer and eating green bagels are not in fact irish - so I'll just toss out for the second year the amsuing factid that in Toledo Ohio, they break out the Green beer early on "St. Practice Day" which falls on the day BEFORE St. Patrick's Day. The Polish and German Americans who predominate the areas celebrating St. Practice Day then have a wonderful time drinking and presumably puking for two days straight. This was verified for me by a genuine Polish-American from Toledo who is now in AA and presumably won't be drinking OR puking anytime soo. (we hope and pray)

And no, for yet another year of Irish protest - there will be no Corned Beef or cabbage in my house for the entire month of March. I will be making the traditional lamb stew followed by sweetheart apple dumplings covered in pastry made with real beef suet (the only way to make proper pastry). last year I burned the botoms of the dumplings, let's hope I do better this year. Oh, I am also making a sweet carrot pudding with my new pudding mold I bought on clearance from the Baker's Catalogue. ( For those in the US who weren't raised in a house with pudding molds as I was - pudding is a steamed cake, not custard.)

Anyone gooing to be in Los Angeles is welcome to come over

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Ref
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:54 PM

I'm a bit put off by St. Pat's because my Irish forebears were Prods ( though I've NO use for the disgusting religious bigotry of the Orange Orders) and I'm a UU, leaning Druid (the metaphoric "snakes" Patrick drove out.) That said, I do have respect for those people, mostly elderly it seems, who still celebrate this as an ethnic connection rather than just an excuse to drink low quality and horribly colored beer. I like Danny Boy, in the right circumstances, as much as any other song, and if you can't raise a tear upon hearing Carol Noonan's Danny Boy piece on NPR, you're in need of an emotion transplant.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:39 PM

Just one time I encountered something done as observance of St. Patricks day that I found truly revolting, and I would have thought it would have disgusted anyone with a sense of Irish, particularly Irish-Anerican culture. 25 years ago I went down to State Street for the parade there, my one and only time. By the time the parade started, speakers all along the street were broadcasting something to the tune I know as "Christmas in Killarney", which went "The Irish in Chicago. After that, they played "The Irish in Chicago". Then they played, "The Irish in Chicago", followed by "The Irish in Chicago". They followed that with several rousing repetitions of "The Irish in Chicago". In a word, nothing else, for the entire duration of the parade. I never thought of blaming the Irish community for that; it may have been one single embicile in the wrong position, with no taste or intelligence, who may not even have suspected that there was a vast "canon" of appropriate music for the occasion.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:53 PM

So where is it that that they dump green dye into rivers? I ask as an actual Irish American who has no clue about commercial St. Patrick's day. When I was a child in NYC (I'm 42), all we did was go to Mass and then basically get on with life as usual. (I know, I've said this before in other threads).

Now Easter, that was the big Hoo-Ha holiday in NYC for Irish Catholics. Grandma always bought us a new dress and smart coat with matching bonnet and don't you know we have fashion photos of every year documenting those frocks, coats and bonnets (as well as the handbags and shoes). Huge meal, games, parade, everything except green beer and green bagels.

The only thing I feel guilty about is the fact that my husband likes corned beef (aka brisket) and corned beef is usually cheapest around St. Patrick's day. he doesn't hold it against me, however, and supports my one-woman protest so long as he gets a nice meal. Perhaps I'll make it up to him in April and take him to Dr. Hoggly Woggly's Texas BBQ and get us some brisket there. BBQ brisket is so much better than boiled.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: mg
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:27 PM

It was probably the happiest day of the year for us. There were absolutely no downers int eh day..like Christmas..well don't get happy at Christmas because remember Jesus has to die..and then Easter which they say is the greatest day but really wasn't much to speak of fun-wise. But St. Patrick's day..no religious overtones to it, no guilt. We got excused from Lent. We could eat meat on Friday. We got the day off school. There was usually a school fun thing before with singing etc. T he nuns tended to be from Ireland so they were happy. We had a parish potluck with green Jello. They made ice cream with green shamrocks in it so when you sliced it you got the shamrock. It was the only day of the entire year set aside to having fun. mg

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 01:30 PM

Hey! Daves Wife:
                  How is his foot?

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:23 PM

I have some Irish in me and I have no affinity at all for St patrick. Have some Scottish and have no affinity for St Andrew. Have some English and have no affinity for St George. If I had any Welsh, I'd have no affinity for St David. Canada's patron saint is St Jean de Brebeuf. Guess what?

If the day is used to celebrate one's heritage than I do have an affinity for that. But if folks need a reason to get drunk and they are using that as the excuse, pffffft. What's the point.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 03:44 PM

Heritage and good tunes. AND green beer! No reason. Just being Irish.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:02 PM

We've been the house band for St. Patrick's Day at a bar in the Caribbean for several years. The locals don't know what the hell to make of it, but they seem to have a good time. Not one request for Danny Boy - ever. Not one request - ever.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:03 PM

There are some blessings when one works in other countries.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:13 PM

Yup. We get the gig not because we are the best Irish band on the island, but because we are the only Irish band on the island.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Gulliver
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 05:32 PM

At our Paddy's Day session here in Dublin we'll be singing anything and everything and enjoying it. Doesn't matter whether it's Danny Boy, the Bonny Irish Boy, the Croppy Boy, the Rake and Ramblin' Boy, the Lovely Sailor Boy, the Little Drummer Boy, the Wild Colonial Boy, the Butcher Boy, the Red Haired Boy, the Dying Cowboy, Have You Got a Light Boy, Ramblin' Boy, Kelly the Boy from Killane, the Handsome Cabin Boy, Nature Boy, Pretty Boy Floyd or the Sash My Father Wore. It's a good day out and the only problem is taking the time off to watch the Ireland V Italy rugby game on TV.

ps. We have songs about girls too...

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: boglion
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:15 PM

I'm still looking for a good session in North London (Kentish Town way) on Saturday. My daughter is arranging the do but seems not to have come up with anything yet. There will even be a few lads with real Kerry accents in the crowd. They're over here working and relying on Katie to sort out the gig.

She's an excellent Bodhran player (if you agree there can ever be such a thing). I sing a bit and we've got something like 30 people waiting on the decision. I'll even sing Danny Boy.

Any suggestions?

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:04 PM

A bodhran player?!?!?
We've bin hankerin' for one of those.
I suggest that she get a ticket to Oranjestad right now...we'll even chip in.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:56 PM

Ref, our ancestors were Prods, too, but that didn't stop us form enjoying the day, esp. my dad and me. While he didn't have anything to do with the Orange Order, etc. he did make sure we wore orange on that day and, of course, since we didn't want to get pinched, we also wore a bit of green, usually a shamrock pin or so.

My fav. fiddle tune that he played was always The Irish Washerwoman.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Jimmy C
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 10:39 PM

For all the "Prods" etc, why would being a Prod stop you fom celebrating St. Patrick's Day ?, after all , Patrick himself was neither Catholic or protestant, he was a christian missionary - Catholics and Prods came much later. Go out and have a good time, Danny Boy and all.

I will be playing one 60 minute set at a St Patrick's Dance in Whitby Ontario,, while the D.J. takes a break.
My set will include Irish, Scotish, English folk sones along with a few instrument, stories and jokes. People who are not Folkies don't really care if the song is authentic or not, all they want is a few drinks, a few dances and a few laughs anh hopefully go home in a happy mood.
Happy St. Patrick's Day to all.

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Chris in Portland
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 10:48 PM

Don't mention that St. P was Welsh in Chicago, unless you can do a mile in world class time. And don't even try to tell them that the first Mayor of Chicago was Welsh. They've no time for that stuff.
Chris

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: GUEST,Bob L
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:26 AM

Isn't an Irishman just a Welshman who can swim? ;-^

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:11 AM

Is it me of is Danny Boy a load of sentimental crap?

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:58 AM

Isn't an Irishman just a Welshman who can swim? ;-^

..or is an Irishman a Welshman who can't swim?

(I've heard both versions!)

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:55 AM

jimmyc, no reason at for them not to enjoy it. Does remind me of something I found interesting, though. My Rog is first generation American of French Canadian descent. He was raised going to parochial school, speaking French in the mornings and English in the afternoons. I told him the local parochial school here has a lot of "Christian" references in their handout literature. He told me when he was growing up in New Hampshire the Roman Catholics never called themselves "Christians" as that referred to the Protestants. They were always the Roman Catholics. His French nun teachers were fiercely adamant about it. When they were asked whether the Irish over at "St. Patrick's" were Roman Catholic, they allowed as how they might be a little bit, but they made sure their students understood that "God" was a Frenchman!

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:02 AM

If God were a Frenchman, this would be a very different world. (For one thing, the menu would be far more interesting).

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 12:07 PM

We always called ourselves Catholics rather than Christians..not really Roman. And yes, Danny Boy could be considered sentimental crap I suppose, but it is a song that is very very important especially to older Irish American men for some reason, and I always heard should only be sung by men. It means a lot to them, they want it sung at their funerals, their grandfathers sang it etc. Why should it matter to you one way or the other? mg

Subject: RE: St. Patrick's Day Etiquite
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 01:44 PM

We English are always jealous of the way in which the Irish are able to celebrate the feast day of their patron saint without any hassle or fuss. If WE try to celebrate St. George's Day, by hanging out our English national flag, or wearing a rose in our buttonholes, we are immediately accused of being racists !!! As for singing patriotic English songs in bars and pubs------The police would be there in five minutes flat !! But I still intend to get the Cross of St. George flag ready to fly from the upstairs window next month !