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BS: Poverty in the USA
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Apr 07 - 04:02 AM Well, this may be just a bit of thread drift, but not so far off topic as to be completely out of line here. In earlier posts I had talked about the privitization of Public Mental Health in my State, and also that I was struggling in the private sector to figure out to what extent I could speak forthrightly without jepardizing my job. My direct boss, the Clinic Director of the clinic where I am the Outpatient Services Manager, called me tonight in tears to give me a heads up that a Division Director will be coming in the morning to tell me I am out of a job for the first time in my adult life. She had surgery on Friday and is on medical leave. At the insistent urging of the Division Director, she will be in the office tommorrow, full of Vicadin, to carry out her official duties. She called me at great risk to her own position if I am unable to conceal that I have been forewarned of the message that will be delivered to me tomorrow. I will be forever grateful for the chance to psychologically prepare, and will do my best to behave in a manner that does not result in her loss of employment as well as mine. This is primarily a business decision resulting from an announcement the State made last Thursday that they are reducing the reimbursemt rate for community support services by 1/3, retroactive to claims paid (not services rendered) on or after April 30. I understand and accept that. The reimbursement rate for Outpatient and psychiatric services has never covered the cost of providing the service. Community Support was the money maker and kept us afloat. When I read the State memorandum, I knew it meant trouble. And I knew from the start of mental health reform that the new system, as designed, would not be financially viable. The question was always-How long? The current company took us over at our predivestiture salaries. Though not large, they were higher than this company typically paid. Regarding annual leave benefits, they started us earning based on our tenure in the public system. This company had been a private, children's therapeutic foster care and residential treatment provider prior to taking us over. They had some professional level staff, but these types of services are not provided by licensed professional staff. They were fairly large, with offices in 5 States, but quite specialized. They served children. Children have Medicaid. Medicaid was their primary payor source. (Private insurance does not cover therapeutic foster care or residential treatment such as group homes.) In the last 18 months, including the take over of our 4 clinics, they have grown 150%. They did not understand the financial risk they were taking on to provide therapy, psychiatry and community support to uninsured and underinsured adults. 80% of the adults we serve do not have Medicaid, medicare or insurance. Those of us who had worked in the public system knew the reformed system was not fiscally designed to be viable with low income adults, that adults are the largest popluation we serve, and that there was no way private companies were going to be able to break even, much less show a profit. The State went with it anyway on March 22 of 2006. I am going to speak very personally now. In part this is out of my own need to write as tool to sort this out, but also because I think my situation is not unique, and that there is value to others in my sharing it. I am well aware that in doing so, I can not assume that either Dickey or AWG, or others like them, will respect what I am doing, or what I risk in doing so. I hope they surprise me. If not, well, I'll deal with it. I do not make good money, several thousand dollars less than the median income for the region in which I live, but at the time of divesture I was the third highest paid clinician in the 4 public clinics operated by the Area Mental Health Program I worked for. Tenure played a role in that, but I also had received a number of merit raises that pushed my salary out in front. I say that not to toot my own horn, but by way of explanation. In the 1st 5 months after the private company took us over, I received another merit raise and then a promotion. The end result is I am the highest paid employee in the clinic. At the time of divesture, in June, 2006, I was providing psychotherapy full-time. Our long-time clinic director took early retirement and left. He, too, saw the approaching train wreck, was in a position to leave, and did. So did many others. From June until October, we were without any on-site manager at all. I had been, and continued to be, the team leader for both of our adult treatment teams and was also providing clinical supervision to a majority of the Licensed Clilnical Social Workers among the outpatient therapists. I had previous administrative experience from my pre-graduate school years with the Dept. of Human Services in another state. By default, and by neccessity to the operations of the clinic, I fell into the role of de facto manager. The salary that was being offered for the program director's position was not competitive and for the longest time therew were no applicants. I wasn't interested. Direct practice is where my heart is. After 5 months, with no Program Director in sight, the Division management promoted me to Outpatient Supervisor. At this point I was still carrying a full therapy caseload, offically took on the Outpatient Supervisor's job, and was still functioning as the de facto clinic director. I do not assert that I was able to wear all those hats well. Working 50 to 55 hours a week, I was able to keep them on my head-at least most of time. We have an awesome, dedicated staff, professional and clerical, and everyone else was working very hard also, trying to maintain a level of functioning that allowed us to serve our community, but systems- wise, we were a mess. We lost our data system when divestiture occurred. The new company had one in the pipeline, but 5 minutes before daybreak, realized it was woefully inadequate, pulled it and started from scratch. There should be a data system in place within the next 3 weeks. I won't be there to see it, but I understand from support staff who have started training on it that it is a good one. Just before Christmas, we finally got a Clinic Director, she is fresh out of a doctoral program and had no prior management experience. Nada. At first it was awful. Slowly, we have started to get on track. She made some very serious blunders early on, but is a quick study. I work with her closely and think she is on the way to being a good manager. She unintentionally but seriously alienated staff, me included, when she first came in. But she is very direct, open and straightfoward and we have forged a good working relationship. Other staff, who have had less direct contact with her, have been slow to come around, but it is happening. She'll get there. When she saw the number of hours I was working, (no comp allowed with this company) she told me to start transitioning out of direct therapy. I am now down to about 5 billable hours a week, and rarely work more than 45 or 46 hours a week. So, here I am, relatively highly paid, and not seeing clients to bill out the hours. When I leave there tomorrow, the clinic expenses will decrease by the amount of my salary plus benefits, plus whatever other taxes and insurance a position costs a company. There will again be a supervisory/mangement vacuum that will have long term consequences, but the bottom line will improve in the near future. The company operates a dozen or more clinics in my region. Heads are going to roll in those other clinics also. No one will be given notice. No one will receive severance pay or packages. In January, the company changed from annual and sick leave to paid time off. Under company policy, you are not entitled to be paid for paid time off at resignation or termination. We had the option, In January, of being paid for accumulated vacation, or we could roll it over into paid time off. I rolled 4 weeks over. I will not be paid for it because it is now paid time off. I willnot even be able to call my clients and tell them there will be change in therapists. This is a huge ethics violation. I can not prevent it. Neither I or my boss know who gets riffed in other clinics tomorrow. Neither do the other outpatient supervisors I have called tonight. (And I did not tell them I was being riffed tomorrow.) But their impression is that in other clinics, tenure will play some role in determining who goes. There may be some demotions. No one really knows. It is very hushhush. A team of Division management will spread out to all the clinics tomorrow morning so that everyone cut gets the word at the same time and can be gotten out of the offices before they have a chance to talk to other staff. My boss was not given a choice re: who goes. There are two new clinicians that I hired in the last 6 months. They need their jobs also, but if tenure were considered, they would go and I would be demoted back to clinican (the work I really want to do.) I am not wishing them gone. If it were presented to me that two go and you stay. or two stay and you go, I can not truthfully say what my decision would be. I guess I'm glad I do not have to make it. What my boss does know is this. Her boss said that the Division considers me to be too outspoken, not a team player. She asked him about this. He could not identify one example of unprofessional or inappropriate speech or conduct. I had simply dared to disagree. I had dared to challenge the party line. He acknowledged my personnel records are impeccable, that all my evaluations, going back 15 years, and including the one that has been done since divestiture, are very good to excellent. He tried to get her to say I have verged on insubordinate with her. She declined. What this is about is, they would like to keep me from drawing unemployment. I hope I don't have to. I'll be out beating the pavement as soon as I get my office packed up tommorrow. It is not going to be easy to find a job in my field. I'm 55 years old. Mental health reform, in reducing services, has also reduced the job market. the program I used to work for is still around. They are now a 'Local Mangement Entity.' I've heard they may have openings in care management. That would be a good interim solution, but I think within the next 6 months, they will also have a round of lay-offs. I have a close friend who could probably put me to work as a cook. It wouldn't pay much, but it would bring something in until something better turns up. Assuming something better does turn up. No notice, no severance, and if they have their way (they won't) no unemployment to tied me over. If you read the papers, you know my story is not unique. If it were, it wouldn't be worth telling. Oh. Did I tell you the company's mission statement? I'm goin to paraphrase, cuz I wouldn't want this post to turn up if the phrase were googled. It is to the effect of take really good care of both the clients and the people who serve the clients. Well, it is almost 4:00 a.m. Going in tommorrow on 2 hours sleep is not the best idea I have ever had. Oh well. I doubt I'd have slept before now anyway. Good night, and may the dawning day shine on a new path, for me, and for America. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 10 Apr 07 - 09:05 AM That's tough, Janie. Sounds like you're tough enough to get through it, but what a sad situation, in so many ways ... Keep talking to us ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: AWG Date: 10 Apr 07 - 09:45 AM Best of luck, although I suspect you won't need it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Amos Date: 10 Apr 07 - 10:02 AM Jaysus, Janie. When you get home, I hope you can get some rest. Have you considered private practice? I suspect you'd be very successful at it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: mg Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:33 PM That is tragic. For you and the clients. At the very least, fight like crazy for the unemployment. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Ebbie Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:38 PM Good luck, Janie. Spread your nets wide. By the time the Getaway rolls around, I fully expect to find that you are working hard in the field you love. {{{{hug}}}} |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:52 PM Janie - You said a few things that I picked up on. You're 55, the highest paid employee and outspoken but eith not "one example of unprofessional or inappropriate speech or conduct." "No notice, no severance, and if they have their way (they won't) no unemployment to tied me over." Why should they pay you when they can replace you with someone younger and more malleable at less cost to the company? This is the story of someone being forced into early retirement. Get a lawyer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 10 Apr 07 - 01:05 PM See a labour lawyer. ASAP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,Dani Date: 10 Apr 07 - 06:32 PM Oh, believe you me, guys; I read Janie the riot act about lawyers, newspapers, you bet. I'm ready with my finger on the dial. Do you hear me, Janie? Mosi Secret at the Indy, Rob Shapard at the Herald.... they'll be all over it like flies on a forgotten picnic. Send her some more hugs, guys. She'll need them. I have said for a long time that Janie should be in private practice. Perhaps some hybrid of this with a 'real' job would work. The world would be a much rougher place if she wasn't therapizing in it. BTW: I hear John Edwards is hiring..... and I think he needs to be reading this thread...... the wisdom and insight you (Janie) and many others of you would be a wonderful thing for his campaign/administration to absorb. xo, friend. Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Amos Date: 10 Apr 07 - 10:17 PM Good on ya, Dani -- she's lucky to have you on her side!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Apr 07 - 10:52 PM The plot thickens. There are dead bodies everywhere. As it turns out, mine is not one of them - yet. And I am jumping ship just as soon as I see a rowboat with an empty seat. As you read, keep in mind that this is a 'not-for-profit' corporation whose business is providing human services, in this instance, mental health services. It is not unreasonable to expect that such a company would be more inclined to follow ethical practices in its dealings with its employees. Not. Chapter 2. If I had posted an hour earlier, I would have told you that my own boss jumped in front of the bullet intended for me. She awoke at 3:00am this morning, so disturbed by the way the company was planning on dealing with me that she arose from her bed and sent an e-mail to all clinic directors and the Division managers. The title was "Where is the Integrity?" She also had written a resignation letter, though she was not sure she was going to hand it in. She arrived at work a little after I did. I went to her office and we sat together, awaiting the executioner. She looked awful and was mildly doped up from the pain meds. Remember, she had surgery on Friday. I had told her it was not necessary for her to come in, but she felt very strongly that her place was to be beside me. We tried to prepare outselves for what was to come, making an agreement that neither one of us would cry in front of the axeman, both of us knowing we were lying to ourselves and each other. She talked more about her conversation with the axe man last night. I asked her if she was sure her head was not also going to roll. she said, "I don't know. I'm prepared for anything. Then she showed me the e-mail she had sent. I won't say it was an elegantly written protest, but she got her point across. I was pretty sure she was going down with me. Axe man still had not come, so I told her I was going outside to smoke a cigarette. We figured he could wait five minutes to can me if he showed in the interim. As I walked out of the lobby, I saw this guy in a white suit, and speculated it was the Axe Man. He could wait. I kept on going. After putting another bullet in my lungs, I went to the ladies room and then headed back to the clinic. I wasn't gone more than 7 minutes. Outside the door I stopped for a minute to make sure I was as centered as I could be under the circumstances. I wanted to handle myself with dignity. I opened the door into the clinic, and there she was, going around hugging people and telling them good bye. I was confused. I figured if we were both going, he would tell us both together. Axe Man was standing over to one side. My boss was in the Med. Records room, surrounded by others. I figured we'd have time to talk as we walked out the door together. Being a brave, good girl, intent on preserving my own dignity, I walked up to Axe Man, held out my hand and introduced myself. "I expect you want to talk to me," I said. "I'd like to meet with you, the office manager and the CSS manager if I may. (Oh jeez, we are all going to get it.) "Sure. Let me find CSS Manager." I walked into the office manager's office to see if she knew where the CSSM was. I had given her a heads up earlier that I was to be canned. My boss came in very briefly, gave me a hug, said to hang in there, take care of my son. I told her I would be in as soon as we were done with AXE Man, too niave to realize that she would be booted out the door long before that. Internally shaking in our collective boots, we compliantly follwed him back to my office, and settled in to hear we, too, were fired. Instead, he smoothly 'explained' the company wide situation, told us there were people being let go at all 11 clinics and the Division, and then addressed cuts in services to the inidigent, etc. To me he said I was retained instead of my boss because my firing would cause a much bigger uproar among staff, given my long relationships with them, strongly implying that it was a political decision and had nothing to do with any regard for my work performance. At some point he made an off-hand remark about the experience of going arouond firing people (he was headed for another clinic when he left us.) What he said was this. "You just have to detach, and look at them as them as names on a piece of paper." That phrase is still echoing in my head. He finally left, staff went about the business of serving clients as best they could, and when time permitted, huddled together, or came to my office to see if I had more information, or to seek reassurance that I was unable to give. I called a staff meeting at lunch, and told them what I knew. Individually, I went to each of the professional staff and told them that our boss had called me the night before, that I had been who was supposed to be fired. In those phone conversations with her, she had noted the difference in our circumstances. She needs to work, but her husband is employed and she has a private practice, not to mention a PhD. I, on the other hand am in the middle of a divorce after twenty years of marriage, Our assets are currently frozen pending proberty settlement, and I have always been the family breadwinner, my spouse being chronically under-self-employed. In light of this, I interpreted her brave but very rash e-mail as intended to accomplish just what had been accomplished. She got canned instead of me. to be continued next post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:11 PM What a scene ... don't know what to say ... except, hang in there ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:20 PM Cahpter 3. What really happened was much worse. I finally was able to speak on the phone with my (former) boss this evening. It was a set-up. She was always the intended target. Axe Man had told her it was me in order to get her out of her sickbed to come into the office so he could fire her there. While I was out smoking, he went into her office and sat down. She began a defense of me. He said, "Stop. It's not about Janie. It's about you. Your postion is being terminated. May I have your cell phone, your office credit card, and your keys. You may take your 401K." And that was the end of the conversation. We were among the first clinics hit. As the day rolled on, phone calls passed between clinics and the scenario was the same everywhere. One or more Axe men arrive, people were told their jobs have ended, and they are gone. Clerical staff, clinicians, case managers, program managers. It was the same for all. When I left at 5:00 today, the death toll was still rising, as we waited for other clinics to check in. "You are done. Cell phones and keys please." No notice, no severance pay, no nothing. Not even an I'm sorry it has to be this way. No termination with clients. No thank you for the hard you have done. Names on pieces of paper. No more new referrals for indigent people. No money in it. I don't know what this outfit was like befor June of last year. In the fall, they sold themselves to a for-profit managment company. It is somehow structured so that the division I work for 'still meets not for profit status. Good forbid someone take secrets with them about how to do a diagnostic assessment. Naw, Boss Hogg's just a figment of Bobert's imagination. Janie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:22 PM That's appalling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:38 PM Well Janie, I hope you sent the ex-boss some flowers. People like that are rare. I'm not sure where you live but in my town the only men who wear white suits are gangsters. This sounds like another example of privatization. They are doing it with social services and now they want to do it with education. In Canada, they even want to do it with health care. Why? Its cost effective in the short term. In the long term, the costs are enormous when you take into consideration the level of professionalism, the integrity of the system and the availability of services. Its easier to make these changes to services for the poor and the mentally challenged because they aren't as able to stick up for themselves. Its disgusting the way the people in need are walked on and then discarded like so much garbage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Amos Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:40 PM Gawd, Janie, this is gruesome. Will you still be "there" at the end of this week? What do they think they are doing? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Azizi Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:45 PM I'm just reading this thread for the first time. I feel for you Janie. I've been there and, since I work in the same field as you under similar circumstances but in different state, who knows how close I am to being there again. I don't have any answers. I wish I did. God bless you. I'm sending your positive vibrations. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:45 AM Wolfowitz is doin' OK, though. And his friend. Neato, huh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Wordsmith Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:37 AM I feel like crying, but if Janie can take it, so can I. Lots of hugs and support to you, Janie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 11 Apr 07 - 04:01 AM Janie, open your own practice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 11 Apr 07 - 06:49 PM First of all, (((hugs))), Janie... This idea that private companies can our peform public agencies is crap... You know it, I know it, George Bush knows it... Boss Hogg knows it... Donald "Friggin" Duck knows it but yet... ...Boss Hog must be kept happy and that means privitizing everything in the friggin' world... Next thing ya' know they'll be tryiong to privitize the air we breathe and send us monthly bills form Halliburton Air, Inc... But this was soemthing that I have been talking about since the Ray-gun days when Boss Hog pulled back on the movement started in the 60's and let it be known that there wasn't going to be no "War on Poverty"... An' like you, Janie, I was outspoken and made a pest of myself... I reckon if it it weren't for my strong job reviews they woulda put me out as well... But I was real angry... I still have a lot of friends in mental health in Virginia and they say that things are really screwed up so when you do jump, don't bother checking out Virginia... Mental health is a mess here... More later... BObert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:49 PM Okay, so lets do a little review of the recent history of mental health in the US and we'll se that privatization is just the latest in the ill-thought-outmess of our national resolve and conseguent policies... As a result of the 60's revolution we collectively focused on the individual as valuable and salvagable and so we said, "Hey, why are we institutionalizing so many folks who suffer from mental illness???"... This was a noable question to ask and so many people who would have spent their entire lives were "de-institutionalized", reassigned back into society and with adaquate funding for mental health, adult service and adult day care programs, many did well for extended periods of time before needing little ***refresher courses***, ahhhh, you know, another 30 or 60 days in state hospitals... Some actually assimilated back into society and are still functioning... But then with the Ray-gun administartion the funds for the support programs was drastically cut and so the states were scurrying trying to find funds for mental health and those funds weren't there and so things began to unravel and have been unraveling ever since... But what came out of this unraveling process is that what, in essence, occured is that hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people, who once were "institutionalized" in mental health hospitals where they had at least some services and medications and stability, or "de-istitutionalizd" and had a funded support system on the "outside" (living in the community) was there was now little of either... Huh??? Yeah, $$$ for mental health, be it for programs to support the "de-institutionalized", or for those temporarially "institutionalized" just got cut, cut and cut some more and... ...guess where these folk have ended up??? Ya give??? In our prison/industrial complex, that's where!!! Yes, out prisons are now filled with mentally ill people... Hey, don't believe me... Janie will tell you, too... This is America's dirty little secret.. Every socail worker in adult service who has been around since the 70's knows this... (But, Bobert, what does this have to do with Janie and this discussion???...) Think about it... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 11 Apr 07 - 08:00 PM BTW, I didn't want Dickey's post to go unanswered... Yeah, there was a time when a white guy with a little work ethic could and would make it... While you were living in Alexandria I was living 3 miles up the road in Farlington... Back then it wasn't much different than where you lives... I know... My dad had a good friend who lived down there back in that swampy area 'round the scrap yards... Like yer dad and just about very dad of everyone in Mudcat who is is on the plus side of the hlaf-centry mark we know that our parents came out of the Depression and WW II and know that in the late 40's and early 50's things turned a round for all of them, providine they were white... My dad quit school in the 6th grade but went on to have a decent career with the Ford Motor Company... Big deal... So did all the rst of the white dads... You are copmparin' yer usual apples and oranges... Heck, fir that matter, congressmen lived in our neighborhood in the 50's in the same 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom houses that we finally moved into when I was in the 3rd grade... I mean, you seem to be trying to say that thease days are the same... They very much are not... The system isn't goin' to ***allow*** much upward mobility... Downward mobilty, however, seems to be just what the "system" has in mind for everyone but the upper 1%... Just like Haiti... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:52 PM Bobert: What makes you think I am white? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:10 PM First, let me say thanks for all the good thoughts and words of encouragement. And just writing out the story has helped me to process it. But the point of posting it to this particular thread, is that it is a good, first hand account of corporate America's disregard of the social contract and failure to behave in an ethical, socially responsible manner. Balance of power is a good thing. What is occurring in the business where I now work is small potatoes compared to what we all have read about in the newspapers, or which some of you have experienced yourselves with plant closings or buy-outs of small companies by larger ones. And it is the same that has happened with the social contract to provide a safety net for the poor. Advance notice of firing, or severance pay in lieu of notice is a safety net. The ability to accumulate annual leave that must be paid is a safety net. Companies demand loyalty and a two week notice if you are going to leave, but offer no reciprocity. The same hold for the relationship between the overclass and the underclass. Even the middle class owes a debt to the poor. We all stand on their backs to some extent. We owe the underclass an opportunity, and we also owe some sort of safety net. IMHO. Mick, if you are in the house, this is a good lead-in for commentary on the historical role of labor unions in balancing the power of the overclass that is corporate America. North Carolina is an 'employment at will' state. (Boy, am I glad that term is now used instead of the old 'right to work' state.) There are few unions, the ones that exist are small and weak, and labor laws favor employers to the point of absurdity. Worker's Comp here is an industry tool. (boy could I tell you some stories about stuff like worker comp reps. slashing tires while the guy with the back injury is in the MD's office and then video taping him changing the tire as proof his back must not be that bad...like he has a choice not to change the tire--true story-I was subpeoened, and not the only one like it.) I was born and raised in West Virginia, a union state if ever there was one when the coal industry was less automated and employed a lot of people. In union States, labor laws tend to offer more protection to employees, even if they are not in union jobs. Of course, over time, the big Unions turned into big business themselves, and became abusive with their own power. --but that is for another thread. The important thing to note is tthis. With the decline of the labor unions, the balance of power is again out of kilter, and coorporations, over the last 20-30 years, have slid back to their old ways. As a force for social justice, the labor unions helped not only the working man, but also the underemployed, the unemployed and the poor who can not work. In post-industrial American, the new working class dress in white collars or work in service industries. The average 'working class' citizen now sits in front of a computer in a cubicle, and has some higher education. the working poor wear a black apron over a pine green polo shirt with a restaurant or motel logo on the breast pocket. I'm gonna go hunt up Mick. He probably has a different view than do I, but he should--he knows more about it, and I think he could add to this discussion of Poverty in the USA. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 12 Apr 07 - 05:31 PM Believe me, Dickey, you are whiter than white... Don't think so??? Go ask the danged mirror... Yeah, Janie, I don't think Mick would find much to disagree with in your observations of "unions"... Remember the pillow factory that shut down in Charlotte a couple years ago??? It was all over the "Observer" and guess what happened to the $$$ when it went "under"... It was divided up among management... And guess what happned top all the machinery??? It was shipped to Pakistan.... Yeah, I agree with yer observation that 14b is nuthin' but continued worker abuse and the lousy wages that accompanied the Jim Crow years... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: autolycus Date: 12 Apr 07 - 05:44 PM Milton Friedman,the economic guru of the current situation in the States thought and said that corporations who put ethics or social responsibility up with profits were bad,misguided corps. Has anybody pointed out that it wasn't so long ago (and maybe still true) that 1 New Yorker in 10 depends on food handouts to stay alive? Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Barry Finn Date: 12 Apr 07 - 06:28 PM Hi Janie I'm happy that you're still where you should be though I guess you're reading the hand writing on the wall. It seems that the current fashion of handing over what should be government programs to "for profits" is a basic washing of hands as far as responsibilties on the part of the program's entrusted. That way if the "for profit" can make a go of it all well & good & if it takes the "for profit" stripping away the guts of the program or cutting the benifits or the number of benficiaries out to accomplish this , well the government bares no resonpsibilities here either, take it up with the "for profit", after all it is their program now. A bit like outsourcing only on a local level. Persently this is happening with schools & prisions alike, hospitals are inventing their own versions of this & the health care system & the related health insurance industry are finding their own varients of this, just look at social security reforms. What it boils down to & the bottom line is a cheap stream lined machine that caters to the bare neccesities of those that were originally supposed to be benifiting from these programs. Now it is to benifit these "for profits" & the folks that were supposed to beifit are now only the excues so that a profit can be made from them. It has become a business rather than a social program which our taxes have paiid for & now support. So we in essence are subsidizing & paying these "for profit" businesses that were established to aid the poor but are now enabling themselves to what the poor should be recieving. If that don't beat all & they call it reform. An' here I thoght the poor were supposed to benifit, silly me. It pays businesses to have the poor around so that a profit can be made off them. Not only do these business get supported by our tax dollar it would seem but it would also seem that they would reap & rape the tax system too at the same time. Count the benefits of what they're charging the government for their services & add any double dipping for health costs & this is not a cheaper way to run things. But again it's not about the poor any longer it about the profit. For "help agencies" are getting stripped & gutted, this has always been the case but now there is a diferent slant on them. Before it was "the good fight" to help those less fortunate & God knows that those doing the fighting for those doing the dying weren't getting paid much for it either. Now it's a "for profit business" & the botton line is the profit, plain & simple. No longer can people like Janie & others hold up a proud smile & head & say "what I do helps others in need". They've being stripped of their pride. A sorry way to see how the folks in Social Services are turned around IMHO. A sorry way to treat the needy too. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,mg Date: 12 Apr 07 - 06:37 PM OK...let's take Hewlett Packard...or General Motors...do you really think they sit around hoping to have more poor people? They don't benefit as far as I can see from having poor people. They benefit from having educated working class people I would say..but desparately poor..why?????? THis does not make sense...how do they benefit from people in jail and mentally ill on the streets and TB epidemics waiting to happen? I don't think they do. They don't hire in the poorest sections of a state do they? Especially where poverty is confluenced with crime..no one wants to set up there... I think we have to look more to biology...and count heads...oh dear..now she is going to say babies cause poverty..well....they prolong it if nothing else...mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Barry Finn Date: 12 Apr 07 - 06:58 PM I didn't say they did but they don't really need to. They can outsource. I didn't say evrbody or every company binefits from a poor class but most would if the working class does become the poorer class. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:43 PM mg, What I am trying to say, and not doing a very good job with is this: The effect of the unchecked exercise of power in favor of the powerful is to disempower those with less power. It is not necessarily that a bunch of CEO's get together to decide how to oppress people. Some on this thread argue that only the poor are accountable. The powerful are also accountable. Our social policies tend to emphasize the accountability of the lower socioeconomic class and deemphasize the accountability of the upper socioeconomic class, represented by corporations. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:54 PM mg, Check out what the CEO's of both Hewlett-Packaard and GM are making rlative to their employees... In recent UAW (United Auto Workers) negotiations the unions are prurdy much just asking that management live up to previous agreements... They ain't askin' for raises... They ain't askin' for more bene3fits... All they have been askin' for is to not go further behind.... This is really part of what many of us ahve been talking about... When the corporations can go back on their word it has a ripple effect on labor in general and is felt all the way down to the poorest of workers... (Well, how can this be, Bobert???) Well, you see, General Motors doesn't make every thing themselves but they have suppliers.... Many of these supppliers aren't maga corporations but smaller companies that employ much smaller numbers of people and what we are finding in the 43,000,000 folks without health insurance is that they work for these smaller companies who, flat out, can't afford to pay for health insurance and make any profit... In a way, I fall in that category even though I hire only two guys... If I had to furnish health insurance for them I wouldn't make minimum wage yet I work hard... Real hard... Like amny of us have tried over and over to point out is that while GM's CEO make more in 3 hours that most of his UAW employeees make in a year, Boss Hog has ***never***, in the histyory of this country corraled so much wealth all for himself... This one fact, like striping off the layers of the onion, is the crux of this thread.... TYge upper 1% had bought out governemnt and thru corruopt practices corraled the wealth of the nation... This isn't just rhetoric... This is reality!!! But Boss Hog is never happy with how much he has because he is infinately evil and greedy and wants even more... There is no end to just how much the ***silver spooners*** think they are ***entitled*** to... Yeah, like I have said... We do have a "welfare nation" but it's all goin' to the top... Meanwhile, Janie's boss (with Janie next), carrer socail workers are being pinched out by the same coorupt corporations that have convinced (thru campaign donations/ kickbacks) out so called democraticaly elected corrupt officials to ***privatize*** everything in the friggin' universe??? This is what poverty is all about!!! It ain't rocket science... It ain't about boot straps, it ain't about poor folks working harder or accwepting ***personal responsibility***, it ain't about bad choices, good choices or in-between choices... It's about greed!!! Nothing else... Just greed... Beam my boney but up, Scottie... There are to many folks here who can't do simple math... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:42 PM mg - I do not think the wealthy "sit around hoping to have more poor people". Its just that they care about themselves more than anyone else and they are very greedy. They think they are smarter than everyone else and more deserving. Look at the latest scandal. Wolfowitz arranges a secondment for his girlfriend. He gives her a salary increase from the World Bank that makes her more highly paid than Condoleeza Rice. She then goes to work at the U.S. State department with Liz Cheney. Do you think its because she's qualified or do you think its because she's his girlfriend? Did Wolfowitz and girlfriend convince Bush to invade Iraq because it would bring democracy to the Middle East or because they thought they could manipulate the market? Does Wolfowitz and his girlfriend work for the Worldbank because they want to help the poor or because they want the power to manipulate the economy? When you think of all the time and energy that they spend securing their wealth and status, don't you think that they are scheming? They may not do it to hurt the poor but by being so greedy, they hurt us all. They simply do not know how to share and they believe they are better and deserve more than the lowly masses. They are masters off manipulation and they do it with OUR TAX MONEY and they do it on the backs of OUR LABOUR. They are no more deserving than you or I or that child in the ghetto. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: TRUBRIT Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:26 PM Oh Janie -- what a horror show. What an absolute horror show. My heart is with you........! Some years back I survived a 'night of the long knives....' in corporate America where 12 positions (all filled) were cut to seven positions and only five of us survived to fill the positions - two new people were sought out for the 'vacancies'.....we all worked in one building and were asked to go over to the other building to hear our future - ONE BY ONE. As we walked over we met our colleagues coming from their meetings -- as I went over I met two colleagues both of whom had been canned....I think I was about six months pregnant at the time....... Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. You have such artistic talent and such personal integrity -- you will do fine......I know it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:39 PM Bobert: So you say I am white because you say I am white? Try explaining why you think I am white. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: mg Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:48 PM Whatever you are, be proud of it and all the ancestors who contributed to it. No one should be ashamed of his or her heritage and one's heritage should never be flung around as an insult to anyone. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 13 Apr 07 - 12:56 PM Yo, Dickey... I personally couldn't care less what color you are... You might be green for all I know... But you certainly are quick to defend the white power structure... Make Bill Cosby look like a flaming liberal... ...yer white... Let's just leave it at that unless you want to offer up some evidence that you ain't.... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 13 Apr 07 - 01:40 PM Bobert: I still want to know how you judge if someone is white or not without seeing them. Are you afraid this disclosure would expose your biggotry? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Don Firth Date: 13 Apr 07 - 02:28 PM In John Steinbeck's classic novel (and movie), Grapes of Wrath, there is an interesting lesson in economics. I can't remember the conversation precisely, but the gist of it is this: Tom Joad says, "Wait a minute, the handbill says they need 800 pickers. You laugh and say they don't. Now, who's the liar here?"Outsource enough jobs, lay off enough people, and you'll soon have a potential workforce of people willing to work for a cup of flour and a spoon of lard. Basic economics. Law of Supply and Demand. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 13 Apr 07 - 02:52 PM I know a guy that read in the want adds that the Post Office was hiring mail carriers or somesuch and quoted a good hourly pay. He went to the post office, filled out an application, handed it in and quit his current job. After a few weeks he inquired about his application. He was told that it was on file with a dozen others in case they had an opening. When he protested he was told that headquarters does that sort of thing when they have an opening somewhere that needs to be filled. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Don Firth Date: 13 Apr 07 - 03:49 PM That's a fairly common practice of a number of corporations and institutions. Best to follow the First Rule of Wing-Walking: Don't let go with one hand until you have a firm grip with the other. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 13 Apr 07 - 07:56 PM Good point, Don but as you know the ever incresing situation is lettin' go, or better said, being let go and landing a job that pays half as much as the last one... I'm surprised that this discussion hasn't come around to Boss Hog's newest idea on how to hrod more of the wealth and that is the "two tiered" labor settlements with the oldwer workers agreeing to conracts that basicly offer them nuthin' other than not going backwards with newer folks being hired having to accept much less in the way of pay and benefits... This is what came out of the California hotel workers strike... Strike??? Waht a joke... Boss Hog has broken the back of the labor movement in the US and labor no longer has any leverage... All that we can hope for is to get an administartion that isn't ***goon oriented***... Goons, BTW, are defined in Webster as "strike breakers"... The current administration is so ***goon oriented*** that it is downright scarey... Like I said, I hope that Amercia will realize increasing poverty rates is not in ther best interest of the future of our country... I know that Boss Hog wikll pull every stupid PR act to get Redneck America to side with him, you know, labeling folks who have the moral conviction to stand up for the American worker as "liberals" and "intellectuals", as per usual but... ...these terms are a tad thread bare these days and just don't get the mileage they once got... But think about this.... You know that a party in power has to be purdy friggin' hard up when it has to use "intellectual" as some kinda whippin' boy... What is the converse??? Well, I'll tell ya what it is: dumb ass!!! So the choice may one day be reframed as "Do you want a smart guy running the country or a dumb ass???" See how the shelf life is quickly evapolarting on Boss Hog attacking folks because they happen to be eductated??? And, yeah, this is about poverty 'cause part of getting back to rededicatin' our nation's "war on poverty" is to see thru the PR crapola that Boss Hog has used to stall it... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 14 Apr 07 - 11:28 AM Bobert: I thought Liberal and Intellectual were complimentary terms. Can you put your smugness aside long enough to expalin how you determine if someone is white with out seeing them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:51 PM This thread is about poverty... Not you... Sorry, but if that's all you have to ***add*** top this discussion then "Mr. Ignore" is all you'll get from me... If you want to continue this personal discussion, do it thru PM's and save the others from your games thank you... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 15 Apr 07 - 12:01 PM Well, with the 60th anniversary of Jackie Robinson's breaking of the "color barrier" in baseball, I'd just like to relate aome observations that Michael Wilbon of the "Wsahington Post" made this week in a column which is somewhat related to this discussion... He observed that there are fewer and fewer black kids makin' into the professional baseball these days and theorized that it is because in primarially black neighborhoods recreation budgets have been cut and baseball is one of your more expensive sports with eqipement and field upkeep... Okay, yeah I can see his point... He points out that is a lot less expensive to maintain basketball courts, especially in inner cities... (But, Bobert, then who did the Jacki Robinsons and Willie Mays and Hank Aarons' of the past make it to the big leagues, one might ask???) Well, the demographics have been increasingly changing with a greater percentage of balck people living in urban areas... When The Mays, Aarons and Robinsons were coming up baseball was played in more rural settings where a greater percenage of black folks lived than today... (Okay, Bobert. but why are you harping on blacks folks as the only folks that are poor???) Well, yeah, in actual numbers, there are more white people so I don't mean to dismiss this part of the discussion... It's just when you look at percentages you find upwards of 3 times the number of balck folks living in poverty than white folks... Just some food for thought here... Also, I was up early this mornin' and turned on the TV and there was the kinda discussion discussion that should be aired when less folks is still asleep...It was about DC schools, particularially in NE and east of the Anacostia River where, and I missed the "Washington Post" article but will try to find it, the commentator said that the drop out rates in these areas was 2 out of every 3 at the high school level... These are the neighborhoods where the $475 a month apartment are located. BTW... I was thinkin, "Hmmmmmm, wonder what the drop out rate is in McLean, Virginia where the popultaion is almost exclusively wealthy and white???" Mg has made some fine points about education but if the nyumbers are even close then what we are seeing is that urban blacks aren't gettin' educated... One reason that Dr. Janey, who heads up the DC school system and noted in the show this morning, is that black kids don't see any incentive to go to school... The jobs aren't there waiting, he said, so why would a kid go thru it with little ***hope*** (his word) that doing so would benefit him... Okay, yeah, I can see where the man is coming from here... I'm not trying to over-generalize this discusssion... One can't really do that... As we have seen, this is a discussion that does have some meandering room... I think that is part of the beast we are dealing with... I will, howver, stick to my guns that regardless of which facit of poverty we are looking at, it will take an effort (funded rograms) to deal with it... And I will stick to my guns that our nation has allowed the Boss Hog's to divert both resourses and attention away from this very dispictable situation... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 15 Apr 07 - 02:58 PM Bobert - I don't know the answer to school drop outs but I do know its nothing new. I hated high school. I did not like the social scene, the subjects bored me and the teachers were from outer space. The only thing that kept me in school was that my father said that I had to go to school until I was 18 and that I wouldn't be allowed to live at home, otherwise. I took an alternate program that allowed me to take the required subjects in the morning and I worked in the afternoon. The only thing I cared about was fashion. I worked retail and had money to spend on clothes (shallow but true). I went to university at age 38. My son also wanted to drop out. The only way I kept him in was by finding a program that allowed him to take the required subjects in the morning so that he could train in the afternoon (he was a competing athlete). I wouldn't sign for him to join the cycling team (he was the junior member) unless he passed every course with a C or better. His big interest was riding his bike. (At age 33 he's a contractor that makes more money than me). Maybe we need to offer alternatives to those kids who are at risk of dropping out. I think its important that kids begin to take an active role in their future. There has to be a way to expose them to all of the interesting kind of work that is out there. Perhaps the trick is helping them to find an area of interest and then providing the opportunity for them to pursue it. Its not good enough to tell them that school is their only option. I'm a teacher and I think high school sucks! Something has to change. We have to stop looking at schools as holding tanks or a babysitting service. We have to give kids the opportunity to pursue their interests, no matter how silly it may seem. We need to expose them to the variety of occupations that are available. There needs to be more apprenticeship programs. School need to become more flexible. I think we really need to look outside the box to solve this problem. Maybe there should be schools for itinerant youth? Maybe schools should offer courses at night so kids could work part-time during the day. Not only Government but parents need to look at ways to make schools viable. As usual, it comes down to money and will. Its a huge bureaucratic system that does not change easily. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 15 Apr 07 - 04:19 PM Like Dr. Janey pointed out,d, there has to be an incentive for kids to go thru with graduating... And we both know that flipping hamburgers ain't it... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: mg Date: 15 Apr 07 - 06:01 PM Flipping hamburgers is a time-honored way to put oneself through school..then the person can become an electrician, physical therapist,nurse, whatever. If they have a full-time job flipping hamburgers, and are single, and have minimum wage in my state, which is not too bad, they are out of the direst forms of poverty that have been described. They are a success story. They made it. They can afford food, a shared apartment or rental room, a bus pass and a few clothes. Medical problems would be another story and I hope we soon have national medical programs. I would have loved to have had a job say at McD. when I was in high school. Next step is the community college where they can get loans, grants etc. Then they get a decent job that the community college (in my state) will essentially place them in, because that is how they keep programs going, and leave the hamburger job for someone else. McDonald's issued a request for educators (if you can call them that) who kept threatening kids with jobs flipping hamburgers, and described, with examples, how people used these jobs either to stay with the company and do fairly well, or to educate themselves into other positions. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 15 Apr 07 - 07:00 PM But not a exactly a career choice, mg, which for a majority of inner city black kids is all that they realisticlly have to lok forward to... These kids don't have ***your*** survival skills... Nor do they have ***your*** experience background... Throw in that the ***system*** isn't designed to accept upward mobility the ***realities*** on the streets in out urban centers is a million miles form ***your reality*** I know you mean well but you aren't going to ***preach*** a million kids outta poverty unless the sytem is prepared to accept them, which it isn't... Now for a couple new thoughts... I believe that most of us agree that it is going to take programs and resources to tackle poverty.... Good advice, like mg's, isn't going to get the job done... Is it neeeded??? Well, yeah, but won't get the job done... The rich folks have devised new ways to corral our nation's wealth... One way that has become very popular since 2003 is off-shore account which have taken $100B outta the US Treasury a year... That would go along way in itself to fund day care programs, job tarining, etc... Another is usary lending practices where they invest in "pay-day loans" that bilk the poor outta up to 336% interest on short term loans.... If these two loopholes for the rich were closed buy Congress we'd have a lot more dough to fund programs and the poor would have alot more of their own money... And this without even disussing the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 15 Apr 07 - 08:32 PM Awww, what the heck... ...600... Bobert |
