BS: Poverty in the USA

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 May 07 - 05:55 PM

This may be 801.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 May 07 - 06:19 PM

Bobert, how can you stand it?
Nothings changed since the begining.
Put up the money or suffer the results.

Free education (including, sex ed, drug ed, career counsuling, voc training, etc)
National Free Health Care
Free day care for those that can't afford it.

Just tell 'em to say no, just doesn't cut it.

Bye, bye Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 May 07 - 06:22 PM

or you can regulate the shit out of their poor enough as it is lives.
Might as well have them living by the bell. One ring to piss, two rings to pray.

Barry, bye for real

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 May 07 - 06:33 PM

the only ones you really have to regulate are the ones who are preying on the weaker of them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 07 - 07:52 PM

mg,

What you have in mind is a police state... You want to strap people into chairs and scream at them all of yer values and ideas... You want coaches and cops to rough up kids... This ain't gonna work, my friend... Never has... Never will...

And when one allows the thoughts of cops holding kids down so that you, or someone else can preach to them, what about the adults??? You are on a slippery slope here with not only the real world but the history of our country which, according to the constitution, is wrapped around raights for all, not just the 14 year old kid that you want a cop to hold down while you preach to him...

I think you need to rethink your "War on Poverty" plan that doesn't turn our country into a police state...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: mg
Date: 08 May 07 - 08:49 PM

Gee I wasn't going to ask the mythical police officer to hold anyone down. I can't preach. I am too nonverbal. But just to have on hand when the mythical 14 year old pulls a gun on me.

And why in the world would you think a coach would rough up kids? Or a cop? It actually was not part of my plan. Don't know where that came from unless BOss Hog whispered it in yer eer. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: mg
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:02 PM

Bobert, I have decided that I must put you on a filter, and please feel free to do the same to me. I can not and will not even attempt communication with someone who takes something I say and turns it into something so far afield I can't even recognize it, other than I think at times it approaches abusiveness and I do not play those games. Of course, I have to figure out how to do it first. If someone wants to PM me instructions that would be handy. Anyone feel free to filter me out. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:43 PM

Gangs are a Bad Bad influence on kids. What can be done about gangs?

I think kids join gangs for a sense of family support that they do not get at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 07 - 10:02 PM

LOL....

Well, ahhhh, how do I put this so it won't come off as rude... Okay, given the things you have said on this thread you, IMHO, come off as very maternal... You have advice on everything from how to save a few cents on this or that to figuring out how to apply for this or that job...

Please don't get me wrong... These are attributes... They are valuable life lessons... They would sho nuff come in handy if one day *you* woke up in an alley in some uirban area and needed to figure out how to survive... Might of fact, my wife, the P-Vine, is very much like you... She is a real pioneer woman... Cans food... Clips coupons and all that...

But its like what you and my wife have is like a square peg in a round hole when it comes to sharing this knowledge with poor people... Yeah, like I've said, the folks who work for me are poor people and, bless her heart, she tries to be helpful in their lives but it comes off as too motherly and they don't buy one danged bit of it... I, on the other hand, being street hardened at an early age have no problems gettin' my message thru... Okay, perhaps I don't know the "survival" details that you and my wife know but what I do know I have no problem in teaching...

Yeah, we can be as righteously motivated as one can be but if we don't have the humility to communicate with poor folks then we are talkin' down to poor folks... Poor people aren't stupid and they know when folks is talking down to 'um...

Yeah, I know you probably won't get this, mg, 'casue you didn't get it the last several times I've tried to communicate it bit it is a large part, if we are serious about fighting a war on poverty, that all the warriors will have to have down pat 'cause this war won't be fought with cops....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 07 - 10:12 PM

What is a filter???

Is that like an MOA inhibitor??? Or a Beta blocker??? What, it's okay for ***you*** to blast away with 6 or 7 posts in a row of ***your*** opinions and values but not okay for one very overworked ol' ex-social worker to throw a couple posts in a day???

Hmmmmmmmm???

Sounds like George Bush to me who has a mindset that if you agree with his stupidity than all is well and if you don't, then you're fired!!!

Real adult, mg, real adult... And you think you have anything to offer the poor among us??? What a joke...

...'cept no one is laughing...

Bobert (unfiltered to everyone else who happens to have an open mind)

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: kendall
Date: 09 May 07 - 07:34 AM

Maybe if you both turn the heat down just a tad...

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 09 May 07 - 03:39 PM

I appreciate the reminder. I need coffee filters. Thanks, all.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 May 07 - 04:09 PM

A well-defined case of MSPD - Multiple Sequential Posting Disorder.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: AWG
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:33 PM

Why the hell join a forum if your'e going to 'filter' anyone who has an opinion you don't agree with ? What a joke. Those people who do this need another hobby, because participating in a forum and then filtering certain people is just ignorant, self-centered, and closed minded. But hey, go ahead. Pretty soon the forum will contain only opinions that match your own. Won't that be fun ??? Get off your high horse, mg.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 09 May 07 - 07:41 PM

Ahhhhhh, has anyone noticed that John Edwards has staked out his chances of getting the Democratic nomination on America getting back to more than a discussion on poverty but ways to combat it???

He may not win the nomination but, hey, I think I'll send a few bucks to his campaign for having th courage to take on an issue that a lotta people would rather see swept under the carpet...

Yo, Dickey,

I still haven't gotten a response to the "value added tax" on stuff that corporate America produces in swat shops outside of the country... Okay, I'll admit that this is my own idea and their aren't any folks out there offering this as a way of both protecting American jobs and raising $$$ for a war on poverty... That means there aren't any right wing blogs who have put together an attack team... That means, this is like virgin territory with no cahrts, no talking points... Just an idea of mine... I probably will get around to sendin' it to the John Edwards' folks and let them run it up the pole a couple times to get the bugs outta it but until that has been done, I think it might work...

Whaddaythink???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 10 May 07 - 12:26 AM

People who are poor are people first, not poor first. People who live in poverty are not 'them'. They are not 'those people.' People who are poor are, first and foremost, part of 'we', part of 'us'. The values of people who live in poverty are not any more different from Dickey's values, or mg's values, or Dani's values, or my values, than are each of our values from one another.

The well-healed, narcissitic, jerk who walked into my community mental health clinic last Monday and laid-off 9 well-qualified, experienced and dedicated true public servants with no notice and no severence pay, without regard for the indigent people we serve, in violation of all ethical guidelines in allowing no opportunity for psycholigical termination for clients, no transition plan for extremely psychologically fragile people who are poor and mentally ill, is a thief and a scoundrel who stole from this community in general and the mentally ill in particular out of greed. He doesn't recognize as such. Hey, he's sorry, but it's business, you know? Whether he recognizes it or not, it is valueless greed. The state of North Caolin is ultimately responsible for designing a lousy reformed system of care, and then grossly underfunding even that lousy system, and inviting in private companies with no legal or moral obligation to actually serve the community. jWhat are his values, really?

The poor father of three with a felony drug conviction from 10 years ago and bad health for any number of reasons, may steal to have enough food for his children. He, however, feels like a conflict about it, about the need to put basic survival over his values about not stealing.

I don't know why I am bothering to post this. It is like 'talking to the hand.'



It really is gonna take a revolution.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 10 May 07 - 12:29 AM

Bobert:

I am not familiar with how VATs work. That's a European thing. I am afraid the all these crackdowns on companies making things offshore will drive them completely offshore. What reason do they have to stay here?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 10 May 07 - 04:23 PM

Janey -- you are right -- a revolution is what it will take. If I had a vote, it would go to Edwards......

Did you lose your job in the debacle

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 07 - 05:06 PM

Janie,

Yep, you are 100% correct...It does come down to "revolution"... The thing about revolutions" is they begin before anyone really knows it and once folks do recognize them, it's too late... Someone is going to have to change...

I am a firm believer that the "Boss Hogs" of America have allready inadvertantly planted the seeds and now it's just a matter of time... Things cannot continue to go 100% "Boss Hog's" way... This is going to come crashing down on him...

BTW, now we find that the Va. Tech shooter wasyet another mentally ill person who fell thru the cracks becuase of underfunded mental healht care in Virginia...

No surprise...

Hang in there, girl..

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 11 May 07 - 12:22 AM

I kept my job, Deborah. One of 4 who did. After the carnage I asked for and received a demotion back to psychotherapist (kept my pay though.)

120 adult patients lost their doctor. I can probably find other doctors in the community for about 40 of them. 70 patients lost community support/case management services. 50 to sixty lost their psychotherapist. Some of the numbers above include patients who lost all three of their service providers. Approximately 30 of them also have children who were in services and the children also lost their community support workers, and 15 of those lost their psychotherapist. Some small number of these people will be referred to one of our clinics in another town. However, most of them won't have transportation to get there, or won't be able to buy gas at $3.00+ dollars a gallon to get there.

These are poor people. Many of them are very anxious, frightened people. Probably 60% of those who can work out transportation will still not go. The next town is a foreign country. Probably close to 25% of the clients I have worked with over the years suffer from panic attacks when they leave familiar areas, expecially if they are behind the wheel of a car.

For 38 years the clinic provided a full array of mental health services, including 36 hours of psychiatry per week, psychotherapy, case management, Adult Day Treatment (milieu treatment) and walk-in crisis services to the intire community, but especially to those on Medicaid, Medicare and the uninsured.    Until last Monday, we had an active case load of 465 children, families and adults. In less than 24 hours, we went from that to serving no children, providing no case management or community support, no adult day treatment, 8 hours of psychiatry, no crisis services, and to wait listing the uninsured. The other remaining therapist and myself are to encourage and market ourselves to middle class, high-functioning adults with good insurance.

The response of the Chairman of the County Commissioners was basically, gee, that's too bad.

The doctor who was let go was our best doctor and worked 20 hours at our clinic and another 12 at a sister clinic 40 miles away. She refused to compromise care, to crank patients in and out of her office in 10 to 15 minute intervals, insisted on spending non-billable time on the phone with clients as needed. She insisted that the poor arw as entitled to good psychiatric care and attention as anyone else. The remaining, 8 hour doc, cranks 'em in and cranks 'em out. When patients destabilize, he sends them to the hospital instead of working to stabilize them in the community. He has a psychoanalytic private practice, and is probably good at that. He is lousy and devaluing to indigent people, and doesn't even see it. He works one day a week to do 'good works' to feel good about himself. Don't get me wrong, he is a nice guy-I like him- but I hate the way he condenscends to his patients, and so do they. A good, insightful, worried-well patient with the means to pay comes along now and then, and gets whisked off to his private practice.

I had the awful job of going out and getting each person who was being let go and bringing them back to my office to meet with the muckymucks from the home office in Ohio. These wonderful, committed people conducted themselves with such grace and dignity. To a person, their first concern was for the people we serve. Several have come in on their own time since being laid off to work on proper termination with their clients, or took phone numbers with them to call patients from home to try to help with transitioning or to give the patient some time to grieve. I would be fired if the muckymucks knew I was allowing non-employees to do this. The muckymucks apparently think the former employees might sabotage equipment, or steal 'trade secrets.' These are people who have served this community for 15, 20, in one instance, 33 years.

The lay-offs happened on Monday. Friday night I had a party for everyone at my house, to give us a chance to grieve the death of the clinic and the of community mental health in our community, but also to honor and celebrate the dedication and service the clinic and the people who have worked there over the past 38 years have provided. We did a champagne toast. The toast ended with "May each of us find new ways to serve."



For myself, I am staying on the verge of tears, I am so full of grief at what has happened to my clinic, my colleagues and my community. I have 3 job interviews in the next week. I do not want to work for this company. But I am very conflicted about leaving before I am kicked out the door. If I leave on my own, I will be abandoning these same clients, at least as many of them as I can manage to continue to serve.

The voting public in North Carolina is ultimately responsible for this travesty. They are indifferent, and as long as they remain so, our elected officials can continue to ignore and refuse to fund public mental health at a level adequate to provide even the most basic services to those who need them. Except for fee-for-service dollars from Medicaid, public mental health is primarily the financial responsibility of the states. The federal block grant is, I think, about 500 million a year (divide that by 50 states.) The State demanded privitization, then structured and funded it in a way that makes it impossible for private companies to provide adequate services and stay in business.

but my company has pockets deep enough that they did not have to go about it in this manner, with this abruptness, without offering severance pay, without time to notify and terminate with clients, or help make any transitional arrangements for clients, without even the appearance of clinically sound practices or responsiblity to the communities in which the clinics reside. The other remaining therapist and myself are struggling with the same issues. We need to work, we need to take care of our families. If we are not making money for the company in a couple of months, we will also be let go, and the clinic will close entirely. If we don't jump to their unethical and greedy tune, we get kicked out the door. Both of us see our real masters as the indigent and uninsured population of our community. It is clear the company has no loyality to us, and we would be very foolish to to have any since of loyalty to the corporate entity. Hoever, if we act in our own self-interests, and leave the company,we will be acting against the mentally ill who need services, whther they can gert them or not. I am thrust into a place where my own values conflict with one another, but where values push up angainst survival. If we leave, there will no services abailable to the community. If we (the other therapist and myself) we are coopted and compromised, but we may still have jobs to provide for our families. If we leave of our own volition, the last vestiges of public service to the mentally ill in our community are gone by own acts of will.

And no matter what we do, because of the decisons by the haves, the poor are once again tossed on the trash pile.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 07 - 01:24 PM

{{{{{Janie}}}}}

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 May 07 - 11:27 PM

Janie -- it is just horrible.....HORRIBLE .... but I fear it is the way of the future....hugs to you - I am thinking of you as I am sure are so many others..

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 May 07 - 11:42 PM

Oh, Janie! ((((HUGS)))

It sounds as though you may HAVE to walk away for your own mental health, darlin'...so much to protect and so little resources for you and your colleague. YOUR voice needs to be heard. Have you thought of sending out exactly what you just wrote to us (with a little editing) to the media and congresspeople? I know you are in survival mode, so probably don't have the energy. I have done that kind of thing for years, working on human rights issues. If you'd like some help, I would be honoured to spearhead it for you. It might not do much, BUT it might just turn some heads, make some people take note. I don't know, but I hate to not do anything...any way that we can help, we should, imo.

I came here to post a link to a story I heard on Colorado Public Radio, today. It is about people who are not poor enough to qualify for services, but not well-off enough to have health insurance, own a home, etc. Click Here, then scroll down to 11 May "New Report on Poor Coloradans" to hear some real insights.

Janie, please PM me if you'd like me to help out.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 12 May 07 - 12:37 AM

Bobert, there is no question but what the field is plowed, the furrows dug, and many of the seeds planted. Some of them have begun to sprout. Sooner or later, (and I believe it will be sooner-at least within your and my lifetime)one or two, or even a few of those seeds are going to sprout an effective, charismatic leader or two. It had better be more than that, because whoever is in power will use repressive measures such as the Patriot Act to good effect with respect to domestic affairs. The limiting of our rights and freedoms in the name of the 'fight against terrorism' not only result in increased terrorism throughout the world, it will likely result in an increased number of domestic terrorists focused on domestic issues.

Large scale, fear-based social control, such as mg advocates is as frightening to me as is social chaos. It may offer assurance that nearly everyone's basic needs are met, but it also insures unremitting misery in its stranglehold on free will. The role of society is to moderate chaos, not to extinquish it. Some amount of chaos is inherent in and essential to all of creation.

Balance

Always seek balance.

There is no balance of power now in the USA, Economically, the balance is so out of kilter, the power structure has moved so far toward fascism, that radicalism is neccessary to set the pendulum in motion again.

I wonder what our our sociopolitical system would look like if 65% of eligible voters routinely went to the polls on local, regional and national election days. I truly do not know. If that were to happen, however, I stronly suspect that the lives of people as opposed to the wealth of corportations at the expense of the lives of people (employees and unemployed alike) would figure much more prominently in the politcal arena.

Deborah, Don't let John Edwards fool you. He has enabled some good work in the area of poverty, but he is mainly interested in being powerful, just for the sake of it. I voted for him when he ran for Senator from North Carolina, but was very disappointed in his actual record, and in my dealings with his office as Senator on behalf of individual clients I was absolutely unimpressed. I don't yet know who I will vote for in the Democratic primary, but it won't be Edwards.

Janie

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 12 May 07 - 12:47 AM

Janie - noted!! Perhaps not having a vote slows me down -- since I know I can;t vote, I maybe don't go into things as deeply as I should.....

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 12 May 07 - 12:58 AM

Thanks for the hugs, I need them. But the mentally ill need much more than do I.

Kat, I'll be in touch. Under company policy, I will be fired if I make any public statement. I am working behind the scenes as much as I can risk.

If I get fired, I can't draw unemployment, which I may need if I don't find another job immediately.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 May 07 - 03:32 AM

No problem, Janie, understood. I'll be here if you need me.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 07 - 08:17 AM

The Millions Left Out

By BOB HERBERT
Published: May 12, 2007

The United States may be the richest country in the world, but there are many millions — tens of millions — who are not sharing in that prosperity.

According to the most recent government figures, 37 million Americans are living below the official poverty threshold, which is $19,971 a year for a family of four. That's one out of every eight Americans, and many of them are children.

More than 90 million Americans, close to a third of the entire population, are struggling to make ends meet on incomes that are less than twice the official poverty line. In my book, they're poor.

We don't see poor people on television or in the advertising that surrounds us like a second atmosphere. We don't pay much attention to the millions of men and women who are changing bedpans, or flipping burgers for the minimum wage, or vacuuming the halls of office buildings at all hours of the night. But they're there, working hard and getting very little in return.

The number of poor people in America has increased by five million over the past six years, and the gap between rich and poor has grown to historic proportions. The richest one percent of Americans got nearly 20 percent of the nation's income in 2005, while the poorest 20 percent could collectively garner only a measly 3.4 percent.

A new report from a highly respected task force on poverty put together by the Center for American Progress tells us, "It does not have to be this way." The task force has made several policy recommendations, and said that if all were adopted poverty in the U.S. could be cut in half over the next decade. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 May 07 - 11:18 AM

And here's the gist of that new report found on THIS PAGE at Center for American Progress:

Imagine if everyone in California were poor. In other words, all 36.5 million inhabitants of California—the most populous state in the richest nation in the world—are living lives of privation. Holding on to life and liberty, maybe, but with little hope of engaging in the pursuit of happiness. A pretty sad state of affairs, right?

Well, you can stop imagining. Not everyone in California is poor, of course—Steven Spielberg lives there, after all—but it is the sad case that 37 million Americans across the country live below the poverty line, and millions more are struggling to make ends meet.

The Center for American Progress has a plan for how we can cut the number of Americans living in poverty by half in 10 years as a first step to eradicating it in a generation. Fighting poverty won't be easy or cheap, but CAP's plan can be paid for in full by bringing better balance to the federal tax system. Serious action requires serious investment. And allowing millions of American families to languish in poverty—in what is supposed to be the land of opportunity, the American dream—is clearly not an option we can afford to choose.

Here's how we can cut poverty in half in the next decade—in just four steps.


Step One: Make it easier for people to earn a living.

As of 2005, a quarter of all jobs did not pay wages high enough to keep a family of four out of poverty. We should make work pay by increasing the minimum wage—which, at $5.15, is the lowest it's been in real terms in over 50 years. Congress should raise the minimum wage to $8.40, which would make it 50 percent of the average wage again (right now it's just 30 percent of the average wage).

We should also make the lives of working families easier. Over 70 percent of working families have children. To give low-income families with children a hand, federal and state governments should expand the child care tax credit and guarantee child care help to families that make less than $40,000 a year.

Another way we can reduce poverty for workers is to help them get better jobs and working conditions by making it easier for workers to create unions. Passing the Employee Free Choice Act, which establishes stronger penalties for violations of employee rights and puts in place another method of creating unions, would achieve this goal.

Step Two: Help people achieve economic security.

After helping people get decent work, a good second step to cutting poverty is to help American families retain a minimum level of economic security. We can start doing that by patching up our tattered safety net. Right now, it doesn't do enough to keep people from slipping even deeper into poverty if they are temporarily between jobs or to help them get work in the first place.

All levels of government could do much to simplify and improve access to benefits for working families. The Food Stamp Program could be strengthened to improve the benefits it provides, increase the number of people eligible for it, and make it easier to access. And the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families Program could be reformed to shift its focus from cutting caseloads to helping workers belonging to needy families find steady jobs.

The Unemployment Insurance system could also be reformed to allow low-wage workers to get unemployment insurance, broaden eligibility, and allow the unemployed to use their time without work to improve their skills.

There's another way we can help people achieve economic security. Turns out that being poor is expensive: poor families often pay more than middle- and high-income families to buy the same products. The federal government should establish a $50 million Financial Fairness Innovation Fund to support states' efforts to make mainstream goods and financial services available to people in predominantly low-income communities.

Step Three: Open up opportunities that will provide paths out of poverty.

To help people climb out of poverty we should provide better access to jobs and educational opportunities to people of all ages, from pre-school through adulthood.

States should be encouraged to improve the quality of their early education programs and make them accessible to all children. Teenagers and young adults from poor families could also be helped in various ways. About 1.7 million poor and near-poor 16- to 24-year-olds were not in school and jobless in 2005. The federal government should resume giving communities Youth Opportunity Grants, which fund effective and promising youth programs. CAP also proposes the creation of a new Upward Pathway program that would give low-income youth opportunities to take part in service projects like Americorps and get training in high-demand fields such as health care.

Making college affordable is another key area where we can open up opportunities for young people from low-income backgrounds, who are much less likely to go to college than their higher-income peers. The federal government could make the awards of Pell Grants, which fund college studies, more generous so that they'd cover 70 percent of the average costs of attending a four-year public school. As the federal government does its part, states should develop strategies to make college affordable for everyone, following some promising models already in place around the country.

We shouldn't stop with the young: opportunities should also be opened up for adults. We should do more to help former prisoners find steady jobs and reintegrate into their communities. The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world, and a recent Bureau of Justice report found that more than 5.6 million people are in prison or have served time there. That's equivalent to the entire of population of Maryland – a whole lot of people to just write off.

Another strategy is to give people "opportunity vouchers" for housing that will help people live in communities that have employment opportunities and good public services. We can also encourage the creation of affordable housing in these communities and efforts to make sure that economic growth that makes central cities more prosperous also benefits poorer neighborhoods.

Step Four: Help people build wealth that will allow them to escape poverty for good.

The final part of CAP's plan to cut poverty in half in 10 years is to help people build assets that will help them financially weather periods of crisis like the loss of a job or an illness in the family. Assets are a key to upward mobility.

The Earned Income Tax Credit supplements the earnings of low-income working families and helps them build wealth. But the current EITC doesn't do much to help workers without children. We should triple the EITC for childless workers and make the aid packages we give bigger working families more generous. We should also make the Child Tax Credit—which provides a tax credit of up to $1,000 per child—available to poor families that are now ineligible or only eligible for partial credits.

Another way we can help people make economic progress is to help them save for education, homeownership, a small business, or retirement. The federal government can encourage saving by overhauling the federal Saver's Credit to make it fully refundable and broadening it to apply to other ways people can invest in their future.

We can cut poverty in half in 10 years. It'll take time and money. But we can cover the combined $90 billion cost of the recommendations in CAP's plan by restoring balance to the tax system and recovering part of the money that's been lost by the excessive tax cuts of the past few years. Consider that, in 2008 alone, the value of tax cuts to households with incomes over $200,000 a year is expected to be $100 billion—enough to cover all of CAP's recommendations and then some.

We can take the time; we can get the money. All we need now is a shared national commitment to help the 37 million people living in poverty among us achieve prosperity and have a fair shot at the pursuit of happiness.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 May 07 - 02:20 PM

Janie,
Keep a diary. If you get fired you can collect unemployment - I did it. But I had a diary and copies of emails showing a pattern of abuse and deception. Another time I quit and was able to get unemployment because again of documentation. For the record - I am not a proponent of milking the unemployment system but having paid the premiums and needing the money to survive, I used it. Other times I did not because I didn't need it.

For one year I worked in a for profit company (America Works - run far and run fast!). They offered "training for welfare mothers going (forced) to work". I discovered a sad truth which will no doubt raies an outcry but here goes: these women grew up in the welfare system and see it as a way of life not a stop gap temporary help. From childhood they were not taught the basic principles of succeeding in the work place - you must be dressed appropriately (business clothing was supplied); you must be on time EVERY DAY; you cannot shout at or physically attack a co-worker for any reason; you can not threaten a co-worker; your boyfriend is not welcome at your worksite; you cannot spit at customers...I could go on and on about issues that arose that simply baffled me.
I do not blame these women. Most were eager to work. But most had unrealistic ideas of what work is. All wanted to be receptionists and thought they would sit at a desk and read magazines and answer a phone occasionally. They could not understand that it was more important to have the price of a subway token than garishly decorated three inch finger nails that cost $50 per week to maintain. Do I sound bitter? I am. These were potentially brilliant young women who have been robbed of their ability to function and prosper in a society that desperately needs them.
The rare few that I was able to place in first rate jobs with futures quit. One decided to get pregnant again and called to ask how to get her welfare benefits back. She was managing a retail store in Manhattan. Another quit when a long time employee of the law firm where he worked was allowed to come in late because his wife was dying. My friend formerly living in a homeless shelter, shouted "Discrimination!" and threw away an opportunity to go to school to become a paralegal at the company's expense.
How do you explain to a young woman who had a temper tantrum and broke every mirror behind the counter and in the ladies and men's rooms that "No. They won't let you back even if you say you are sorry."? Or one who was late for work on Day 4 because her botfriend wanted sex and "Well I was on time for THREE DAYS!"
I am bitter about their situation. I am furious about the next two generations of children who are also lost. Yes - a few will rise above it and prosper. But that is not good enough. It starts with birth and early education. We have to have first rate day care to inspire the babies to excel. Instead we cut the funds for the most basic needs and stand back in disgust at those who bleed the system. We need the best in education to show our young people the opportunites that are there for them.
When my son graduated high school he came home beaming and informed me that he didn't have to go to work right away. He had applied for welfare. I was dumbstruck! But the fact was that all of the neighborhood kids whose family collected welfare had done the same. Some of these families were poor. But some owned multiple homes and businesses. All viewed welfare as a right and an acceptable form of income for an 18 year old with a high school education. At eighteen they should have been aching to start work or college or tech school not looking to postpone life with a welfare check.
Or am I missing something? My son said I was wrong and that I took work too seriously. Maybe he was right. And no - he did not get a welfare check.
Poverty will always exist. But the widespread waste of brainpower that enables poverty from generation to generation is not a given.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 12 May 07 - 11:23 PM

I remember 'those' women from my years with the Dept.of Welfare in WV, Sins. But I also think it is important to note that such women (or men) do not make up the bulk of people living in poverty. You do a good job illustrating how poverty can breed poverty through the lack of opportunity and support to learn the life skills needed to get and keep a job.

I also wonder, realisticly, how many of those women would ever have real opportunity to improve the quality of the lives of themselves and their children, even if they stuck with it long enough to acquire the life skills. They would mostly likely experience improved self-esteem by successfully keeping a job, but they are still likely to be poor and struggling without medical benefits, no on-going quality day care, still having transportation problems, still struggling to pay the rent and the utilities once the short-term supportive benefits that continue for a brief period of time after a person goes from welfare to work ran out. Most of them would still be largely without realistic hope of a noticably better life.

I think you are describing the effects of lack of hope that Barry has talked about. It is dangerous to have dreams when the your own life experience, and that of your parents demonstrate that dreams only make it harder to tolerate the present. So many of the poor people I work with simply can not invision a future different from the present and the past. Depending on the circumstances of one's life, one may wait as in delayed gratification, or one may wait for the other shoe to drop. I would agree that one of the flaws of the programs of the 60's and 70's was the potential to foster 'welfare dependency.' However, I think the behaviors and attitudes you observed were at least as much caused by the conditions of multigenerational poverty as by programs that bred dependency.

Social programs for children and youth are more abundant and better funded than for adults out of recognition of the need for early intervention. However, we consistently miss the mark when we don't support the parents, when we design programs that give up on the parents too soon. It is, after all, the parents who will ultimately have the most influence one the children. Social programs for adults are more coercive and adversarial than not. They tend to contain many more elements of negative consequences for lack of compliance than rewards for success. Fear does not lead to growth or to progress.

There is no possible homeostasis at the point of intersection of the individual and the social group. There is mutuality and interdependence, but no fixed fulcrum point where personal rights, responsibilities, freedom of choice, and the experience of the positive and negative consequences of those choices balance perfectly with those of other individuals and of the social group. It is forever dynamic, forever dialectical and forever paradoxical.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 13 May 07 - 12:48 AM

Amos and Kat,

Thanks for the articles and links. The Center for American Progress is well respected for good reason.



My son plays recreational lacrosse. (It's a great game and in the USA is gradually becoming more acessible through county recreation departments and public schools!) In the USA it has primary been a game played by the priviledged, and the rec league in which my son plays is still largely made up of well-to-do kids. The end of season tournament was held today at a very posh private school in the very well-to-do community of Cary, NC. I saw a bumper sticker on a 2006 luxery SUV that so reflects the attitude of the upper and determinedly upwardly mobile classes. It read "Vote Democrat. It's Easier Than Working."

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 07 - 09:32 AM

Well, unless things have changed drastically, an 18 year old boy cannot get welfare... Maybe some temporary "general relief" but not AFDC or ADC...

Secondly, yeah, the choices that some poor people make are maddening but that goes with the territory... Yes, we definately need more money for Head Start and for child care programs to catch kids earlier to try to break the cycle but wwe also need jobs that enabler folks to live above the poverty line...

Janie is correct in noting that a majority of our non-senior poor work at lousy paying jobs that keep them in poverty... And, BTW, when it comes to lousy payin' jobs, that's purdy much what our economy is producing these days...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 May 07 - 11:43 AM

Poverty is the same whether in the US or other parts of the world. The reason it is so demoralizing is that it not only attacks the pocketbook but gets into the mind. There is a poverty mind-set in the US that leads into drugs, prostitution, mafia, gangs etc. It's a sense of hopelessness and no way out. Also, cynicism.

It has become clear that the present Administration has no intention of helping the poverty conditions here in the US. New Orleans was only one example. They get Blackwater mercenary soldiers to herd the poor people around like cattle.

The Adminstration dodged the bullet by schlepping the issue to Faith-Based Initiatives which do little to deal with the problem. Those groups are interesting more in saving souls than giving people tools to deal with the ravages of Capitalism.

Those "haves" and "have-mores" are not going to deal with poverty in the US. Are we going to hear the cries of "Egalite, Liberte and Fraternite" again?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 20 May 07 - 02:11 AM

Bobert:

I was thinking about redistribution of wealth today and I wondered what the total wealth in the world divided by the number of people in the world would be. How much wealth would every person end up with?

There are around 6 billion people in the world and in 2003 there was supposedly $51 trillion total wealth. Hummm. Clickety click ching, that's $8,500 per person. Are you ready to live on that?

Now how are these rich bitches going to fork it over? Much of this net worth is property. Ok they all sell their multi million dollar houses, pieces of art, yachts, expensive autos etc. Who buys them? Everybody's got just $8500 to spend so property is pretty much worthless. There goes a goodly amount of this world wealth. Now what does each person end up with? maybe half of the $8500.

The rich bitches can at least sell their stocks and bonds etc. and get a lot of money for them but who buys them? There are no more rich people to buy large quantities of equities. Everybodys got $4250+-

I think that very shortly into this redistribution, most of the people will be worse off than they are now and the world economy will crash.

If that won't work then just redistribute the income worldwide. Let the rich bitches keep all their stuff and just fork over the money coming in. The worldwide median income is around $850 per year. Are you ready to live on that? Half the world — nearly three billion people — live on less than two dollars a day so it would give them a boost $.32+ per day boost. The other half of the world would suffer a major decrease. The billionairs would have a hard time paying their taxes on $820 per year much less a mortgage payment so they would hae to sell everything and collapse the economy.

Well lets just jump on Boss Hogg Exxon and make them fork over that $39 billion profit. That would give everybody in the world another $6.50 per year or $.18 cents per day to live off of.

Of course I could be wrong in this thinking or my math could be off.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:18 AM

I'm not going to bother to check the math but your thinking is definitely 'off' - way off.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 20 May 07 - 10:24 AM

The point, of course, is not to immediately redistribute the wealth here, there or anywhere. Let's not get side-tracked.

It may or may not help change my poor neighbor's life and legacy if I sell my house and buy us both trailers that are a nicer than the one they already have.

It certainly won't teach their kids about better nutrition, or make them buy better food so that the kids are healthy, alert, and keep their teeth past their twenties. It won't un-do the legacy of under-education, bad management of resources, and the effects of frustration, confusion and hopelessness.

Of course there is a place for charitable giving, well spent, and accompanied by our personal involvement. We as a nation, in many ways, give generously. But we are also, many of us, very separated from our giving. How often do we write a check, check a box, throw a dollar in a pot, with a vague sense of having helped a hungry or homeless person?

A better idea would be to get in your car, go someplace where you can help person-ally. Hand a hot meal to hungry person, go under the bridges and around the dark corners in your city and find where those vaguely-numbered homeless people live. Instead of just 'donating' that pair of gloves you replaced because they're ugly, find someone who doesn't have any, and hand them over. Cover a cold, sleeping person with a warm blanket. Gives a very different perspective.

Works great to bring your children with you. If you think it's too weird or hard to do this on your own, many organizations are creating opportunities to do just this kind of work, and people are finding it life-changing. As we should.

The point is that we need a two-front offense: personally engaging in easing suffering, AND attacking the ROOT causes of poverty in a nation of wealth and abundant resources.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 20 May 07 - 11:13 AM

Dani:

I agree with "attacking the ROOT causes of poverty in a nation of wealth and abundant resources."

But I think handing out hot meals etectra, while being a good thing to do is just a feel good approach. Like sending a truckload of blankets to the Indian reservation so you can sleep better at night. Send a truckload blanket weaving equipment and supplies they can use to make a living with and a teacher to show them how.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 20 May 07 - 11:50 AM

More thinking about redistribution of income in the US.

The median income in the US is around $33,000 per year. If everybody made the same $33,000 amouint, how would the billionairs and millionaires or even the middle class going to live on that? They would have to scale back and dump a lot of their personal property casuing an economic collapse.

Even if it was done over a period of time, property values would plummet and monetary investments would be worthless. Then what would the median income amount to?

I am sure Bobert could live on $33,000 per year.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:08 PM

"But I think handing out hot meals etectra"

If people starve to death, equality ain't gonna help them.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:06 PM

And what, Dickey? Let them freeze until they learn how to do the weaving?

You miss Dani's point entirely.

It is both a shame and completely predictable that you perceive serving the poor by distributing meals as nothing but something to make the server feel good, and as being of no benefit to the people who get those meals.

I am currently on sabbatical from coordinating a multi-church ministry in my little town where we distribute approximately 350 evening meals to both the homeless and the hungry. This is a small town, a village, really. We know who we are serving. And some of them are or have been my clients, so I have intimate knowledge of their lives. Sure, there are a few deadbeats who are just looking for a handout. The majority of those we serve, however, fit in one of the following circumstances"

1. They are disabled, and the Social Security check doesn't stretch to the end of the month.
2. They are employed full time in jobs like the Street Dept., CNA's, custodians. After they pay the rent, the utilities, the care insurance so they can get to work, and the doctor bill from the last time their child had an ear infection, they can't buy enough food to get through to next payday. (Get them more education, you say? We still need garbage men, custodians, and people to help your aged mother to the bathroom in the nursing home. It is all good, honest work. It's a shame you can't live on the pay, no matter how careful.)
3. People on unemployment or whose unemployment has run out who worked at the Burlington Mill for 10 years until it closed down, and then worked at the Flint Mill until it closed down, and then worked at the Haynes Mill until it closed down, and then went and got training and worked assembling high tech parts for Nortel or Lucent Technologies until they moved their operations overseas.

One-on-one service matters, Dickey, whether you want to admit that or not.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 07 - 08:52 PM

You have it all wrong, Dickey...

When I speak of redistribution of wealth I am ***not *** spaeaking of everyone having exactly the same income... That is nuthing but a red herring in the discussion...

What I am talking about is a guarenteed minimum income for all working people that allows their families to live above the poverty line...

This is quite do-able and has absolutely nuthing to do with your stats...

Yeah, what I put forward will in no way take every millionaire and make them live on $8000 per capita...

You missed the point entirely...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:53 AM

"It is both a shame and completely predictable that you perceive serving the poor by distributing meals as nothing but something to make the server feel good, and as being of no benefit to the people who get those meals."

I said while being a good thing to do (meaning it is beneficial for the person) is just a feel good approach. Meaning it is not a permant fix or a long range solution.

Your response to my statement is a knee jerk reaction by someone who thinks in the short term. All this short term thinking has lead to an increased poverty level and it will increase unless we focus on the roots of poverty.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:00 AM

And who assumed the Indans were freezing?

Bobert:

We have a median income of around $33,000 in the US. So tell us how this should be redistributed. Scrape the possum guts off that slide rule of yours and figger it out fer us.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:47 PM

Okay, Dickey, seein' as I'm down to about a half an hour of pudder time a day for research and seems you have time on yer hands, is that per capita??? "er what... I'm good at seeing thru stats when they are presented with all the standard garnishments but you above post can mean a lot of different things... Family of four...

If you are saying that the mediun income for a family of four is $33K, you'll force me to to do some research 'cause that seems to a be a highly manipilauted (for whatver reason) figure)... But still, as low as at is still well over the pverty level for a family of four...

Hah... Who wants to step forward and even explain how a family of four is going to live on $33,000 a year with any plans of their kids going to college???

B~h

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:12 PM

"We have a median income of around $33,000 in the US"

A figure like that can be arrived at with half the people in the group making $5,000/year and the other half making $61,000/year.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:21 PM

Yeah, Brucie, that's kinda like what I'm askin' myself... Dickey is a stats kinda guy but he tends to leave out the *portant* parts... Gotta wahtch the boy...

BVw, Dickey... Before you go and twist what I siad in my last popst into meaning that pverty is just fine if you have a good "qwuality of life", please don't waste out time...

There's a big diffrentce between someone like me (middle class) who can take a survive a hit to my income... Am I being squeezed??? Well, heck ya, I am...

People living in poverty don't have the resources to sit dowen and rationally do what my wife and I do by asking what we can cut out of our budget... They are absolutely slammed... It's just a matter of becoming poorer... Unfortunately, what it tarnslates to is 1 in 5 kids who go to bed hungry at night in a country of tremendous wealth...

That should be criminal...

BObert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:29 PM

The only two knee jerk things going on are Dickey's transparent distortions, inability to interpret and use statistics honestly and effectively and his stalking of Bobert. (See the resurrection of the 'Bubba" thread as an example.)

Root cause does matter. dickey can read even if he can't think, so he know I know that. Root cause=lack of resources. When there are enough resources to assure minimal needs are met, but a small minority of the population hoards a hugely disproportionate share of those resources, a disproportionate number of the rest of the population are gonna be cold, hungry and sick.

Again acknowledging that Dickey knows how to read, Dickey knows that no one on this thread has advocated for absolutely equal distribution of resources. He makes a falicious (spelling?)arguement, grossly distorting what Bobert, especially, but others of us in general have been saying, in a failed attempt to make Bobert look like a fool. All he does is undermine his own, already shakey credibility.

If Mr. Corporation has 70% of the resources, 80% of the readily assessible power, and Mr. Corporation chooses to hide behind the non-entity that corporations actually are, then all the skill building through education, 'family' values, putative laws, and social control to make sure everyone is 'safe' and living according according to what promotes Mr. Corporation's well being is not going to make a dent in the poverty rates in this country. Talk about 'feel good' actions. What little of their resources big money interests 'donate' are for pr purposes. Corporations are amoral, and the people who run them hide behind the 'corporation' so they can say 'not me'-it's just business-I'm not responsible personally.

The Dickey's of the country, and they are, unfortunately, legion, only look at the surface of the realities of our society and our times, buy into, and are co-opted by, the propoganda machine of the prevailing power structure, and say "Look what Exxon, or Target, or Microsoft are doing to try to help these poor fools who won't help themselves.

The poor, the working class, and more and more, the lower and middle middle class are held accountable by the blood and the flesh. The corporation, is held accountable by the dollar. WHO is the corporation? Values? You want to talk about values?

This society is going to be ripped apart. And for a long time, no one will emerge as better off for it. And those at the top of the heap will be mostly to blame, because they had the power and the influence to intervene effectively, responsibly and in a value driven manner, but chose not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:28 AM

Janie: Sometimes I state things in an exagerated way to get a response or to draw attenion to something somebody said that I think is totally wrong or in conflict with other satements they have made. Like Exxon did it or Boss Hogg did it. Nobody here is dumb but I think they sometimes look for something to blame things on and they choose the wrong things.

Bobert: Per capita is the income of everybody down to age 15 divided every man woman and child down to newborns.

That means a family of four would get $132 K +- if everybody in the US got an equal share of the total income. That makes the task a little easier.

But I am really interested in what you come up with. I think it basically depends on what you consider a living wage.

Keep in mind that the dollar value of wealth is built on a lot of inflated things like artwork or real estate. Some joker pays 32 million for a picture of a soup can but his 32 million can turn into fire wood if there are suddenly no people left that can blow 32 mil on a soup can picture. Or somebody buys a house for 100 thousand and ten years later it is "worth" 300 thousand so their wealth is that much higher unless hard times hit and houses get hard to sell.

Even if you focus on income rather than wealth, things can loose value if people are unable to make payments on thier expensive things or have to cash out thier financial investments to get by.

So all of these income adjustments have to be done so as not to upset markets or it is like pulling the bottom card out of the house of cards. Drop someone's income drastically and it starts up a chain reaction, even for a corporation.

Like Hillary say we should "take" the income from Exxon and spend it here or there. 70% of Exxon's income comes from foreign operations. Why would they stay in the US while Hillary grabs their profits?

Would you live somewhere that taxes you a lot more than somewhere else or would you move?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:51 AM

Yes Janie, One-on-one service matters and people appreciate it. But if you are serving 350 meals, is it reducing the poverty level? is the number of meals going down due to the process of serving meals?

I am not saying to quit serving the meals but you have to look beyond that to something else to fix the problem or start it shrinking.

There is a program in Africa and other places that give poor people a couple of goats or rabbits and teach them how to care for them and breed them. Their only obligation is to give a pair of rabits or goats to some other poor person and teach them in the future. This starts a chain reaction that improves their lives. If you give them a meal they eat it and they are hungry the next day. You fixed the problem for one day without lessening the problem. Other programs dig them a well and install a manual pump or build the a community grinding facility to grind grain or nuts for marketing.

Here is an example of attacking the roots:

Local firm collects old sneakers to fight poverty, hunger in Africa
Wednesday, May 16, 2007

NEW PROVIDENCE -- A local company is collecting used sneakers as part of an international Adopt-A-Family program to save lives in Africa.

"If you or your organization would like to help stomp out poverty, all it takes is your used athletic shoes (Adult sizes 7+) that have been sitting in closets for years untouched," said David Allegra.

"Rather than sending your old shoes to the landfill, you can feel the satisfaction and joy of helping to lift a family out of poverty."

Allegra and Company, Mr. Allegra's financial planning and tax accounting firm, will collect donated athletic shoes at its offices at 309 South St., Murray Hill, during regular business hours of 9 a.m. - 5 p.m.

The used shoes are sent to Africa to be refurbished with new laces, insoles and sanitized. They are then given to street vendors which creates jobs in the cities. The income generated from the shoes is shared between the street vendors and the Adopt-A-Family program.

According to Mr. Allegra, every 500 pairs of shoes provides one family with

A water well and pump installed on the family farm.

One pregnant rabbit and hutch

Three hens and one cock

20 fruit trees plus 100 additional trees

Seeds for a quarter acre vegetable garden plus a colonized bee hive

A bicycle to transport product to market

"The adopted families are also educated and trained by local professionals with decades of experience, who understand the challenges of small farmers. The instructors go directly to the village and provide training on the family farm," Mr. Allegra said.

"The impact is powerful and personal. The family becomes experienced in regenerative farming practice, from the introduction of livestock and year-round irrigation to organic farming skills, animal propagation, ad marketing of produce," Mr. Allegra said.

The recipient families also receive free dental and eye screening as well as free malaria medication and HIV education, he said.

"There has never been a comprehensive bottom-up approach this complete to end poverty," Mr. Allegra said.

For more information, call Allegra and Company at 908-665-1696.

http://www.nj.com/news/independentpress/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1179332161192090.xml&coll=18