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BS: Poverty in the USA
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:34 PM Even when viewed through a macro lens, it is the choices that those of us who are not living in poverty in 1st world nations make that are ultimately the building blocks of many of contributing causes and many of the partial solutions to poverty, at home and in third world economies. Do you belong to a labor union? Have you urged your union leadership over the course of years to support fair labor practices in thrid world countries, or urged your leadership to lobby Congress to provide incentives for just labor practices in third world countries and disincentives for unfair practices? Or have you simply been content for your leaders to lobby for protectionism? Do you habitually shop at Walmart, and buy 5 pairs of jeans for $15.00 each, made in a sweatshop in Bangladesh. That Levi plant in Burlington, NC would not have closed if you had realized you only needed two pairs of jeans, at 30 dollars each, made there by people who are, or could be your neighbors, and who were paid a living wage for their work, but are now out of work because the mill closed down? And do you understand that if you had bought those two pair of jeans from a local merchant, the $30 would have stayed in your community, paid a sales clerk in your community, kept a locally opened small merchant opened for business, paying taxes and employing people? And if the sweatshop workers in those third world countries were paid a living wage in their country and if they had decent working conditions, that would go a long way toward providing a sustainable economy in their own communities, such that the jeans they make would have a market in their local community? And that your aunt, or your father, or your husband or you would not now be out of work because the business all went overseas? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: number 6 Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:56 PM I've seen the mentally ill, aids victims, homeless camped out in cardboard tents, under the Gardner freeway, and in the ravines of Toronto. I've seen pensioners lose what little they have on life in a tenement fire here in Saint John. They couldn't even get contents insurance even if they could afford it since the building was so dilapitated and unsafe. Insurance companies wouldn't even think of insuring it. These pensioners worked all there lifes on minimum wage spending their remaining days on about $400 a month government pension. About $300 a month went to the slum lord. What they ate I couldn't imagine. There are many apartment slums here in Saint John that don't have heat or water. Many children live in these abodes. Winter here can be very harsh. Sure, the above isn't Jamaica, Cancun or any of these other exotic locations were the bourgeous of Canada go to vacation ... cheap vacations since the staff of the hotels, bars and restaraunts are staffed by people who are paid next to nothing ... but the above situations I mentioned are real in a country that has 'everything'. Yeah, I'm grateful for what I have ... but I'm aware what is in my own backyard, I do what little I can by advocating in my community in regards to the lack of adequate housing ... but it's like banging your head against a very hard concrete wall. I'm also aware that myself, and pretty well everyone I know is a hairline away from being thrown into the depths of poverty by unknown, but real circumstances. Solution ... I think dianavin mentioned greed above in her post. The human element of greed is the evil that permits human beings to live in such misery. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 09 Mar 07 - 11:19 PM But now you are out of work, at least for a time. You probably don't fall into abject poverty, but times are hard and money is tight, and what do you do? You get scared. The 'what if's' sets in. Maybe you find another a job in a few months, or maybe in a couple years. In the meantime, you've lost ground financially. The job you found doesn't pay as well as the one at the mill, the retirement savings and the dream of the camper permanently parked in a campground/mobile home park in Florida where you could spend the winters when you retired is gone. You feel deprived-understandably in the context of the Great American Dream-which is not dead, by the way--only deeper into dreams. You used to consider yourself a generous person, but gee whiz, you still have two cars to keep going and the dirt bike, and now the dirty sumbitches in State government or the Feds. want to up and raise taxes when you are barely getting by, and even before the sh*t hit the fan, you couldn't a bought the dirt bike, or the faster computer, or the Martin guitar if your money was all going for taxes...and as you get worse off, and don't think you can afford more taxes, some one who was already way worse off than you now has to pay a $3.00 Medicaid co-pay for medicines. What's three dollars? When you're disabled or sick and on Welfare that pays $276 a month for you and your kids to pay rent, utilities, etc, and you have to take 4 different psychotropic drugs for your mental illness, one for your blood pressure and one for the osteoarthritis that is beginning to cripple your hands, that $25=4.00 in medicaid co-pays is almost 10% of your monthly income. Then the tags come due on the car you have to have becasue there is no mass transit to get you to the grocery store or the doctor' office and the car insurance get cancelled for non-payment, but the kids have to eat and you have to get to the doctor so you drive on expired tags with no insurance and get pulled by the state trooper and are now going to have to come up with $275 for the fine, plus still get the tags renewed and the insurance reinstated.... Folks--like Bobert, I'm a social worker--been at it almost 35 years now. This scenerio is pretty typical. And it has a cascade effect that is felt around the world in our now global economy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,Member Date: 09 Mar 07 - 11:41 PM Many people will not ever understand the effects of poverty until they see a single mom cry because she can't feed her kids. Or watch a single mom put off buying herself footwear because her kids need clothes, so she goes to her secretarial job wearing running shoes. She saves the bus fare and walks there despite it taking over an hour. She tells the kids that the burnt-edge part of the egg is bacon, so the kids think that's what bacon is for many years. And you see her at Christmas hoping for a miracle because she has nothing to put under the tree. It does bad things to the human spirit. It did to hers, and I often think she never forgave herself for it although I know for fact her kids didn't think there was anything needing forgiveness. I hope in death she's finally found the peacefulness she didn't have for much of her life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: mg Date: 10 Mar 07 - 12:12 AM OK. Let us come up with some plans to prevent such things from happening. Girl gets a good home ec class in high school where she learns the difficulty of raising children as a single mother and hopefully decides not to go this route and has no accidents along these lines. She learns to sew. She is able to take gently-worn clothing and fix them up sufficiently to wear them to work or clothe her children quite inexpensively. She wears the running shoes to work and has a cheap pair of K-Mart type dress shoes that last forever at work. She knows how to cook nutricious meals out of next to nothing..oats and beans and chicken thighs and carrots and sunflower seeds. She has the children planting seeds in flower pots. She is judicious in her choice of male companions and eventually finds a nice one to marry her, or else does not but takes community college classes when the children are a bit older, trading off child care with a neighbor in similar circumstances. She gets her car fixed by bartering overnight child care with a neighbor who works the night shift. She becomes an LPN and has a slightly better pay and benefits. She splits an apartment with a fellow nurse and does a bit better. She watches the Suse Orman show and does some smart things with her tiny amount of money. Not a great life but better. So much could be done with good high school classes. I would like to hear plans from people.. Not laments...we all know how bad it is and not too many people are all that greedy. I don't think that is the cause. There are multiple interacting causes..now we add meth into the equation and creepy men abusing the woman's 10 year old daughter and eying the 7 year old...mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: mg Date: 10 Mar 07 - 12:39 AM I have a room for rent right now that I can't rent out. Even when I advertise I don't get callers. It is for $250 a month in a place with low incomes. I would even lower the price a bit for a clean, sober, hard-working single woman. Landlords who are slumlords should be prosecuted. However, there are so many social ills that you have to put up with and so many laws that screw the landlord, and I was one for most of my adult life that modest income people are driven out because you will be ruined, as I was, by bad tenants. You will often get good ones in, and they have these dufus sons or brothers they will sneak in and the good tenants will leave. I could tell you many stories. I only have my house now and rent out two rooms in it and I am scared to death to advertise for fear of who I will get. So there need to be provisions for the mentally handicapped people, and there need to be high security situations for the violent people and also their victims. There also needs to be some straightening out of the sordid social mess that we have now. It can be done. That is the first step, believing it can be done. Part of the problem is women and the creepy men syndrome. Oh but he loves me when he isn't drinking and bashing my head in. Oh but he wouldn't do that when he is molesting my 12 year old daughter. Oh but I have to let my meth addicted son live with me and steal from my neighbors to support his habit.... There is way more to poverty than a lack of money...what causes what? It doesn't matter. It all causes more. There are places to break the cycle. One is the drug situation. One is the creepy men situation. One is the out of wedlock children situation.... straighten out one thing and lots more fall into place. A shortage of clothing, bedding, furniture, cars....can be taken care of in America where we have surplus of all of that..not good ways of distributing used goods but we are getting there with freecycle etc. We are going down the wrong road in a lot of pathological ways though and will reap the whirlwind....mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 10 Mar 07 - 12:51 AM "I would like to hear plans from people.. Not laments" Fucking pardon me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Richard Bridge Date: 10 Mar 07 - 02:47 AM What does not help the poor is idiotic simplistic moralising. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Barry Finn Date: 10 Mar 07 - 05:06 AM A little hope & education wouldn't hurt a soul How bout a song on poverty No Tomorrow For The Poor by Barry Finn Tune: Virginia Lags, Traditional Inside the ghettos dwells the greatest of crimes Where kids with no hope are serving their time Where they're shocked into feeling that life has no price They live and they die no tomorrow With no higher learning, no place they can turn They see daily the wealth from crime they can earn They're under the gun every time that they turn And we ask why they have no values Their language is foreign, their culture is strange There's slight chance for survival outside of a gang To get life from drugs beats the pain of no change There's no light at the end of their tunnel There's abuse of all kinds that runs rampage with rage And the cycle runs deeper with each passing age Until lock them away is all we can say They've been locked away all of their young lives We'll draw cheap labor from them that'll slave And watch while we help the rest into the grave Keep them from good health, good schools and good wage And hope that there isn't a backlash So now let us finish and shake hands with our fate And don't be surprised when you're a victim of hate What they've been robbed of, to you they'll relate You'll be hunted as prey by your victim Barry Finn 1997 After all these years I still haven't decided weither or not to drop the last line. Poverty is real & it surrounds us everywhere. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 10 Mar 07 - 07:22 AM I don't have much time this morning but would like to point out jsut a couple things for thought and Janie, having been in social work for 35 years (which I find incredulous since she doesn't look a day over 35 to me...) will remember... One thing that came out of the Great Society and War on Poverty was federal funds for all kinds of little things... Theye were called Title XX (20) funds and they provided social workers with a menu of serices that could be purchased... GUEST, member brought up the woman working as a secretary and had to make a choice between riding the bus or walking an hour to work and, yeah, these are the choices that we as social workers used to have resources to purchase... Under Title XX the Richmond Department of Welfare purchased bus tickets and social workers were able to furnish them to needy clients... ....some of which were very much like the WICS lady who was trying to do the right thing and hold a job but there were also physically and mentally disabled people who needed to get to appointments, treatment sessions and to rehablitation centers... But then along came the Reagan administration and all Hell broke loose as Title XX was reeled in big time and social workers became scroungers, beggers and cab drivers... This opne change in our nation's resolve to fund programs to help the poor was the first shot fired accross the bow of folks who really had no idea how to lift themselves out of poverty... The one Title XX program that was cut that I found most hurtfull was the "companion porvider" program where younger and more mobile clients (and non clients) were paid a few bucks to go into the homes of eledery poor and help with grocery shopping, cooking, housework, etc... This was wonderful program even though at the time the limit was 12 hours per week but those 12 hours were the difference between absolute misery and just plain misery for our elderly... Yeah, there has been this right winged idea that money isn't the answer and I would agree that money, in itself, isn't the answer but it is part of the answer and if we are going to have a realistic discussion about poverty it is going to get around to money, folks... More later... Great thread... Gotta go... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Mar 07 - 07:46 AM mg, At a minimum you are being incredibly naive, and you have no basis whatsoever to make the assumptions you have about guest member's family or mother and the reasons they were so poor from the information provided in the post. There is nothing wrong with home ec and nutrition education, but that would have done nothing to have lifted this family out of their poverty. You have absolutely no information about the history or the situation of the family-yet you assume it is intirely Mom's fault, i.e.If people are poor it is because they make bad choices--maybe out of ignorance-but bad choices must be the reason. How do you know Mom 'got' herself in this situation. for all any of us know she was widowed at an early age, or beat by a drunk husband until she had to leave with the kids, or had to quit college or drop out of high school to help take care of a sick or dying parent, or to help support her own mothers family. You ignore the information that she works. And you must think she is absolutely bouncing with energy when she gets home to sew all those gently used clothes and she has scads of time to buy in bulk and prepare food from scratch, etc., etc. etc. Guest,member, I have no idea whatsoever what your family circumstances were that you had to live in such soul numbing poverty-all of you, your Mom especially. But I hate that it was like that. I, too, hope your mother is truly at peace now. Blessings on her and on you. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:37 AM Bobert-I've got your back on this one for sure! It was actually during the Nixon years that the American public began to lose the will to assure a minimal standard of living for all of our citizens. The federal government began chipping away at the funding for programs then and began to badly mess with the Food Stamp program. It was, however, during the Reagan era that the Title XX programs went completely the way of the dinosaurs. The big turning point was with the passage of the Omnibus Reconciliation Act of 1981. The Title IV and the Title XX programs, and the Food Stamp program as it was operated under the original requirements and regulations, did not eliminate poverty in the US. They did, however, go a very, very long way toward mitigating against the very worst effects of poverty-the lack of minimally adequate food, clothing, shelter and medical care. Under the auspices of the original Food Stamp program, malnutrition had been virtually eliminated in the United States by the early 1970's. By the early 1980's, we again saw significant levels of malnutrition in this country. These programs cost the tax payers money. And somewhere along the way, a majority of those of us who have more than we really need lost the will and the moral imperative to insure that nearly everyone had at least enough. In the early '80s I was a Policy Specialist with the Division of Economic Services for the West Virginia Dept. of Human Services. I had the dubious honor of rewriting West Virginia's programs and policies for administration of title IV-A ( Aid to Families with Dependent Children, a.k.a. AFDC), the Food Stamp program, and some of the Medicaid eligibility rules that were required as the result of the 1981 legislation. It made me so sick of what was happening that I left that position and went back into the field to direct practice, where I could try to do something directly in the lives of people to try to help mitigate against the drastic changes in programs and public spending. For a long time, I thought the tide would turn, that the public will to insure a minimum level of economic safety for all of our citizens would return. It is 26 years later, and it still hasn't happened. And it is not to blamed on the government. It is not to be blamed on conservative Republicans. Bill Clinton's Work First program is much harsher and more restrictive than anything that came before. What we have now (or don't have) in the way of a social safety net is an expression of the will of the voting public. When I opened this thread, my first thought was to stay out of it. After 35 years I am tired of talk and little action. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: John Hardly Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:41 AM Green Envy -- Pover T. & the M.Gs |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:44 AM There is no dearth of ideas about causes and solutions to the worst effects of poverty, no matter where in the world it exists. (Need I say that the worst effects of poverty are people not being able to meet basic needs for food, clothing, shelter and health care?) Beyond ideas, there is a large body of solid research as to what kinds of conditions and programs work to minimize the effects of poverty, and to decrease the rate of poverty. The bottom line is-guess what?-money. And most of that money has to come from tax dollars. Who ultimately decides how much money will be collected in taxes? Those eligible to vote in resource rich democratic countries. Who ultimately decides how and where public dollars will be spent? Those eligible to vote. What ultimately determines how local and global economies look and function? The consuming public. Are some people lazy and/or ignorant and make bad choices that contribute to their own position of poverty? You betcha. But do each of us who do not live in poverty make choices about what we do, how we vote, what we spend, what we think we must have, and what we place the most priority on that results in other people being pushed into, or held into conditions of poverty? Yes. Yes. A thousand times yes. And unless or until a majority of the individuals in society assume personal responsibility for the effects on others of the choices we make, a huge number of human beings around the globe are doomed to suffer needlessly. Droughts on the scale now seen in Africa, for instance, that lead to environmental conditions in which subsistence is impossible are largely from the effects of global warming. How many cars do you have? What consumer choices do each of us make that make it so profitable for the rain forests of the Amazon to be destroyed? How many of us choose to create a market for new homes in new subdivisions standing where second growth forest and good farmland once stood? We are each and every one of us individually responsible. Janie Janie Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:46 AM (I guess all three of me needed to sign that last post:^) Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 10 Mar 07 - 12:17 PM "...folks who really had no idea how to lift themselves out of poverty..." I quite often wonder why some people seem to dwell in poverty while others are able to lift themselves out of misery. I think it may have something to do with the ability to network, socially, and the ability to access services and goods that are available. I also know that to escape the cycle of poverty, you must be able to see that you have choices and are able to make decisions. You must have hope. When people feel that they are trapped, they become helpless. I also know that you must be very assertive about your right to access the programs that are out there. When discussing poverty, I think that we must be aware that for many, it is only a temporary situation. I was there once as a single mom but I can guarantee that the only way I was able to succeed was because I had a strong social network of friends that were able to help with hand-me downs and childcare, etc. If all of us were to extend the hand of friendship and help that neighbor (whether they are elderly or a single parent or...) Sometimes it just takes knowing that someone cares that helps you to regain your self worth. Take a neighbor shopping. Offer to help with childcare. Help with the gardening. There is alot we can do to ease the burden to insure that people are not feeling isolated and alone. Poverty is depressing and its hard to lift yourself up if you are feeling down in the dumps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: mg Date: 10 Mar 07 - 12:43 PM You have absolutely no information about the history or the situation of the family-yet you assume it is intirely Mom's fault, i.e.If people are poor it is because they make bad choices--maybe out of ignorance-but bad choices must be the reason. THE HELL I DO. THERE IS NOTHING I THOUGHT OR SAID TO SUPPORT THIS. How do you know Mom 'got' herself in this situation. for all any of us know she was widowed at an early age, or beat by a drunk husband until she had to leave with the kids, or had to quit college or drop out of high school to help take care of a sick or dying parent, or to help support her own mothers family. You ignore the information that she works. I SHOULD NOT HAVE TAGGED IN TO THIS PARTICULAR POST. I WAS SPEAKING GENERICALLY AND SHOULD HAVE MADE THAT MORE CLEAR. And you must think she is absolutely bouncing with energy when she gets home to sew all those gently used clothes and she has scads of time to buy in bulk and prepare food from scratch, etc., etc. etc. THIS IS WHAT MOST PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS DONE. SHE (GENERIC)CAN HEM A SKIRT IN 20 MINUTES ONCE A MONTH OR SEW A FEW BUTTONS ON. IT WILL TAKE HER 10 MINUTES TO THROW SOME MEALS TOGETHER, NOT COUNTING COOKING TIME AND HER CHILDREN, IF THEY ARE OLD ENOUGH CAN HELP. IF SHE IS IN GOOD HEALTH, SHE GENERICALLY, THESE THINGS ARE NOT PROBLEMS. These are skills that everyone, every single person needs to have. This is a very very serious problem..taking what people did not say or think and get into they are blaming the victim mentallity. It totally shuts down conversaton. No, they might be looking for solutions to very serious problems. I think it is not unreasonable to expect people in good health to cook food from scratch, a pot of soup on the weekend, a pot of oats in the morning. Fast and premanufactured food is a serious serious problem in this country and everyone who has children has to find healthy ways to feed them. That used to be expected that they would cook food. With a used George Foreman grill ($1 at a thrift shop) and a used slow cooker ($1 at a thrift shop, a person can put out some good and cheap and healthy dinners. And you do not need to cook. You can do a lot with reheating foods you ahve already cooked, and healthy salads and sandwiches etc. That is what I am trying to say. We need to get young men and women in high school and make sure they know how to do these things. We shouldn't be graduating them if they can't cook a pot of beans or make an omellete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Mar 07 - 01:14 PM I agree that being able to sew and to cook are skills most people need. They are also skills that most people have. And they are skills that most of the people that I work with who are extremely poor use. And I work with a lot of extremely poor people. At least, most of the people with whom I work who are extremely poor cook when they have food to cook. dianavan, thanks for sharing your experiences and observations. In many cases, the presence or lack of supportive or extended family or other significant informal social supports is a very significant factor. These social supports are resources. And what is poverty about? Lack of resources. Education is a resource. Life skills are resources. A garden is a resource. Access to health care is a resource. Transportation is a resource. Money is a resource. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 10 Mar 07 - 02:39 PM You're right, Janie. I had life skills, a garden, health care and access to education. Although I did not have supportive family, I did have a network of supportive friends. I could cook and sew and I knew how to access services that were available to me. I am happy to say that my children who are now adults, did not know that we were poor. btw - Self-esteem is very important. It helps you get past social workers (gate-keepers) who think it is their job to decide who is eligible for services. Many times they make this judgement based on their own value system. A social worker can open doors or make you feel unworthy. Sometimes I had to lie to get what we needed and I hated the system for making a liar out of me. You do what you have to do. I once had a teacher who said that instead of preparing students to become human resources, we should be preparing students to become resourceful human beings. Makes sense to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: katlaughing Date: 10 Mar 07 - 07:00 PM Makes sense to me, too, Dianavan. Janie and Bobert, thanks for your postings. For the past thirty years or more poor people have been the scapegoats in this country. It gets tiresome to hear them blamed for everything. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:15 PM ""The U.S. isn't nearly as badly off as a lot of places" Presumably true - but those places are a lot poorer than the USA. That's no excuse for unfair distribution between the rich and the poor in such places, but even if things were fairly shared out there's less to go round. The question is how a country that is quite incredibly rich by world standards can manage to have sections of society that are genuinely hard-up, including hard-working people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:34 PM "I quite often wonder why some people seem to dwell in poverty while others are able to lift themselves out of misery" Dianavan: I agree 100% |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:38 PM Well, I guess this next part needs to be said so I'm going to say it.... Janie allready knows it but maybe some others don't... ADC (Aid ot Dependent Children) and AFDC (Aid to Families (ha) with Dependent Children, the two mainstays of public assitance for women and tbheir kids prior to the "Welfare Reform" (ha, part 2) under Clinton, was anti-family... Huh??? Yeah it was a punitive system where case-workers were trained to look for evidence of men-in-the-home during home visits... See, havin' a man in the home (ha, part 3, slum housing project rat infested apartment...) meant a woman could loose "her check"... Which back when I was a social worker wasn't nearly enough to make it throught the month... $360 for a mother and three kids... What a lot of folks don't know is that after 3 kids the check didn't change much even thought there were additional kids to be cared for??? Like what was the all about??? Run the dads out and then punish the moms??? So, yeah, when we talk about poverty, we're talkin' a lot about moms anf their kids... Dads??? Well, sure, there was the Bureau of Support Enforvement??? What a joke... I knew folks in that department an' that was the cushiest job in the entire sysyem 'cause these folks sis nothin' 'cept push papers, talk about what they were going to have for lunch, etc... But I can't blame them 'cause the system was set up not to go after the dads... I will talk more about this in another post 'cause it is an imporatnt part of the solution but this is post is about the mind-set of the folks who were making the rules during the Reagan years and it was anti-family... Janie can add her own spin on it and she probably will but it was anti-family... So here we are with a very distinct history of forcing poor people to make decisions that are/were very much not strong in the areas of "family values" and these values have been passed down from generation to generation??? So when mg asks what makes folks do what they do and why they don't make choices that she might make I'd suggest that a little knowledge of our history might throw some light into why folks do what they do... It's almost condition/response... There is a certain ethno-centric thing that goes on when folks who have perhaps had some close calls with poverty and dodged the bullet where these folks, usually those with a differnet mind-set and set of skills, have come out from their "bad luck" and feel they now understand what it is like to having been raised in a poor family (less, of course, a man-in-the-house)... Now before someone jumps all over me and says "Hey, Bobert, what about this person or that person who made it thru the projects and the system?" Well, yeah, there are a few examples of kids who have "made it" but the odds aren't very good... No, not very good at all... About the same odds at some rich kid endin' up homeless livin' under a bridge... But, just for the folks who are taking this thread seriously, my next post is going to be a "case study" about such a rich kid, who was one of my clients, who ended up homeless an' livin' under the bridge... I won't be usin' his real name because of privacy issues but it it might perhaps get some folks to think about "Well, that could never happen to me..." Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:41 PM You really wonder, Dickey? That would imply you don't think you have the answer to start with. Most encouraging. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:03 PM Well, McG.... Janie, I and others are just startin' to tell then real story... The one that folks outside don't know... Yeah, Dickey, is probably very muich in that category but, in his defense, he has been fairly well behaved so far and hasn't tired to highjack this thread, as he has done in others... That is progress on his part... At the very least he is sittin' back an' takin' some of this stuff in... It's a long torturous story and one that some of use have first hand knowldge about so... ...as much as it pains me, I'd give Dickey passin' marks so far... At least he hasn't thrown a hand-grenade into the discusssion yet... That is progress... Let's let the story unfold... I think between Janie, myself and maybe a couple others we will all come out with a better perspective on this very difficult, yet important, issue... Best thread for a long time here on Mudcat!!! By far... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Ebbie Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:12 PM A litle aside here: There is a lot we don't know about the variables in people's psyches. For instance, one kid can grow up in a home where the parents are alcoholic - and that kid never touches a drop. Another kid, maybe in that same home, grows up in a home with alcoholic parents and is in and out of reform schools and rehabs for the next 40 years. Why? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Richard Bridge Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:15 PM On this thread there is some very ugly blaming of the poor for being poor, some very ugly middle class and in some respects right wing patronising moralising. It fills me with that petrol emotion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Ebbie Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:39 PM "gasoline emotion"? I don't get it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:44 PM Your observations about choice are right on the money, too, dianavan. Without the perception that one has viable choices, one has no hope. Some people do not know the choices that are available to them. And in some situations, there are no viable choices, or the choices you have to make conflict with your values and erode your sense of self worth--like having to lie just to get the basic needs of your family met. Self worth is hard toget, and even harder to keep when one is poor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:50 PM Hang loose, Richard.... This story is just beginning to be told... Those who have been brainwashed into singing the company fight song will hang as long as they can but as the entire story is told will end up, in the words of Bob Dylan, "peekin' thru a keyhole on their knees..." I promise... There are those of us who have been in the trenches an'' are willin' to share what we know and what we have seen... so.... patience, my frined, patience... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:13 PM I'd forgotten that bit about the Dads, Bobert. And I here I was, thinking fondly of the 'glory days' of being poor in the good ol' US of A! Still, there were the Title XX programs, and the odd grant money here and there, and no co-pays for medical care or prescriptions with Medicaid. Somehow or other we grabbed a bit of yarn here, a nylon cord there, and maybe over here not much more than a thin bit of cotton thread. From those different little bits of string, we managed to tie enough knots to together to have a social safety net. I admit it was awful low to the ground, and there were definitely spots where a body might break on through, but it was there. It's gone now, or so full of holes as to be worthless, mere flotsam. Now I wanna hear your case study. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: mg Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:15 PM So when mg asks what makes folks do what they do and why they don't make choices that she might make I'd suggest that a little knowledge of our history might throw some light into why folks do what they do... It's almost condition/response... I will try again. I did not say that. Do not say I said what I did not say. I am for almost every social program there is. I want people to look for ways to get people out of poverty and to keep them out if they might slip toward it. The best way to get into it or stay in it is to have children before you are ready, use drugs or alcohol and not have vocational training and be in an unsafe environment. If you go after those 4 cornerstones, you can help all sorts of people. I have never ever blamed the victim here. But the victim is not only the visible poor person, but like I said, the marginally poor person who has to pay more taxes than she should whilst slaughtering chickens for a living, or the person who ahs to live next door to a crack house etc. etc. I get really really angry when people say I said stuff I did not say, have never said, have never thought. I will say and have always said that we have to untangle some of the social pathology that co-exists with poverty, without worrying about what causes what. It each causes each other..poverty leads to chaos, chaos leads to poverty. If you clean up the drugs and crime out of a neighborhood, resources, including jobs, will most likely flow in. Thrift shops and coffee shops and small groceries so life becomes easier. More bus routes. Better fire service. taxi drivers so you can get in and out. What is wrong with any of this? I am not interested in being abused over this but know that I will be. But abuse me for what I say, not what I do not say, or that you presume I am secretly thinking. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:31 PM mg, If I jumped too hard on you, I apologize for that. I accept your position that you are a concerned, caring person, engaged in active inquiry and looking for viable solutions to problems that have plagued mankind since we first formed communities and societies. I do not read Bobert's paraphrase of your statement as inaccurate, nor do I read it as any kind of attack or put down on you. He is simply restating the question you asked and which he intends to try to help answer. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bee Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:31 PM I have been poor often in the past, and fortunately for only a brief period (six months) was too poor to buy adequate food. It was a very enlightening experience. It was before food banks in my area, and I was too proud/stupid to ask for welfare. Let me tell you that it takes very little time with less than needed B complex and other vitamins and protein for the body and brain to start acting out in a very predictable manner. You become nervous, you tire quickly, you are easily confused, fearful, and sleep poorly. In this state, looking for work becomes an unbearably difficult task, and you don't present well to prospective employers, who may already be looking askance at you because of your less than businesslike clothing. You are always tired, yet because you must, you walk long distances to get to interviews or appointments, therefore often arriving dusty or sweaty. You can't afford the simplest grooming aids: deodorant, hair products, skin lotions, etc. You likely have to pay to get clothes washed, and you wear them longer than you normally would. You look poor. The older you are, and especially if you are a woman, the more obvious this is. When I did get work, and a small paycheck, I went straight to a co-op food store, and I remember my hands shaking as I picked out good food to buy, cheese and rice and vegetables and fruit. I had fussy tastes before that experience, wouldn't eat celery or tomatos or asparagus or parsnips and so on. My flavour prejudices just disappeared overnight. There are very few food items I won't eat now. For many years after I worked with low income working mothers and their children. I know some of those mothers were often hungry. I know their occasional odd behaviours were as often due to food deprivation as anything else. My local charitable donations go mainly to food banks and the volunteer fire department. I get angry when I hear people blaming the poor for their poverty, or raving against social assistance. It isn't a simple problem with a simple solution. 'The poor' aren't some kind of solid mass to be 'dealt with'; they are individual humans with individual needs, problems, talents, abilities, dreams, concerns, dammit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:38 PM Bee Yes! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:47 PM I will say, however, that there are some good reasons why big programs tend to be 'one size fits all", and that there are macro benefits to them being heavily regulated that probably balance out the equally significant costs of their inflexibility. Accountablility, prevention of discrimination, protection from corruption, nepotism, cronyism and patronage are the biggies. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 10 Mar 07 - 11:08 PM "The best way to get into it or stay in it is to have children before you are ready, use drugs or alcohol and not have vocational training and be in an unsafe environment." Mary, I fit all of that criteria at one time and I can bet that lots of other women have too. Is anyone ever 'ready' to have children? How many young people never go to bars? How many young women grow up believing that if you are pretty and sexy, you will get married and your husband will take care of you so you don't really need any skills except homemaking skills. How many women are abused by those husbands? How many women find themselves on the street with all of their dreams smashed to smithereens? I know that this is changing but too often, I see women who have been abused and victimized. For some, it started in childhood. How many women found themselves with no where to turn when their dreams were destroyed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Mar 07 - 11:38 PM Up above, somebody questioned subsidizing an art history major, favoring more "practical" college majors. When I was hiring federal investigators, I often found that the Art History majors were far superior to the Criminal Justice majors - the Art History majors had learned how to "think outside the box." I think there's something wonderful about the idea of somebody climbing out of poverty to study Art History. Lord knows, if we're going to end poverty, we're going to have to think outside the box. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 11 Mar 07 - 03:24 AM Thank, Joe. I was thinking the same thing. These days there is no guarantee that a specific undergraduate degree is going to get you a job. Most employers just want to know that you have an undergraduate degree, period. What's important is personal growth so you might as well study what interests you. If you want to get specific, you'll have to do a Masters Degree, anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Big Al Whittle Date: 11 Mar 07 - 05:09 PM I think America and England need to set their own houses in order before they start pontificating about other less fortunate countries. There really is NO excuse for people to be in poverty in these countries. They are rich. The entire problem stems from 1) the Dutch auction that occurs every election time, when the party that promises the lowest taxes wins. 2) the governments are simply so corrupt that they cannot be trusted to spend the tax dollar(pound) honestly - getting good value for the taxes raised and help to the people in need. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:29 PM Okay, first let me clear up a little misconception/miscommunication here... I'm not trying to put word into anyone's mouths and not trying to twist anyones words to fit a desired outcome of ther discussion... It is a discusssion but is also a subject that I have had a lot of firts hand experience with and have given alot of thought to... With that said, I'll continue with another *chapter* (for lack of a better term) in this discussion... In the mid 70's there was a push for "deinstitutionalism"... Long word but short definition... What occured was a rethinking, some fueling by costs and others by compassion, of not keeping mentally ill people indefinately in state run mental hosiptals so... ... hundreds of thousands people who had been treated (ha) and housed for some period of time in these hospitals were released... As I was a social worker in "adult services" these folks became my clients... My case load averaged 70 with at least 50 of these being folks who had been thru Eastern Sate Hposital in Petersburg, Va... Might of fact, about every 2 weeks I would drive the "welfare car" from Richmond to Petersburg and collect anywhere from 2 to 5 new clients, take them directly to the eigibilty department, get them signed up for General Relief ($56 a month at the time) an' use Title XX money to get them into flop houses where they would have a furnished (ha) room, get them Food Stamps even tho most of the places I could place them in had no cookin' facilities, get them set up with Mental Health folks, etc... The problems with this was that for about 90% of these folks, we could get them somewhat stabilized and involved in some adult day care program (also Title XX) but for these 90% they would be back in Central State within 6 monhs... This was what Janie knews all to well as the "revolving door"... It was a vicious cycle... These folks didn't have enough resources to actaully have half a chance of breaking the cycle... And they had no support system other than the programs that we had then... But as the Title XX funds were taken away under Reagan the minimal programs and reources that we had started to dry up yet we still had this revolving door cycle... ...Well, over the years the revolving door has become ever increasingly the prison door as we are now housing our mentally ill in prisons... Ask any prison guard anywhere in the United Sates and if this guard is honest he or she will confirm this... Oh sure, we still have state run mental hospiatsl and folks do land in them early in ther cycle but further down the road it's prison for them... Now, there is something else I need to say here and Janie will abck me up on this... There isn't much upward mobility in our country... Kids who grow up in poverty tend to end up as adults living in poverty... I used to take case files home with me at night and I saw the same cycle over and over and over... Some of these case files would go back to when these folks were born, would talk about the no-father-figure, about abuse, about foster homes, about arrests, etc... Yeah, some folks think that if poor folks would just do this or that then they could break the cycle... Problem is, and I mean no disrespect here, some of you have told how you went thru periods of times when thigs weren't working for you... Mighta been a health issue or and employment issue or a divorce or a death... But things weren't working for you and you might have found yourself having to scrape and scramble... The difference is that you knew how to scrape and scamble and you worked you way out of your unfortunate situation... Well, you ask, why can't other folks do this??? Well, these folks don't have the same upbringing that provides the life skills to scrape and scamble their way out... Most of them have never been "out" and "out" if foriegn to them... Okay, this may be a genralization and folks in Mudville love to say "Hey, but what about ___________, Bobert??? You are generalizing..." Yes, it is a genralization but it is based on obseravtions I made of being a social worker for at least a couple thousand folks over about a 10 year period... So if we are going to look for solutions one thing that won't work is trying to tell folks not to do drugs or have babies... That is not a realistic approach... What is a realistic approach is for us to accept the reality that folks are going to do drug, have babies, get drunk, get arrested for fightin' with their spouses, significant others, faily, friends, their socail workers, etc... This is reality and they only way out of this reality is to restore the funding that we once had and do all the things right while our clients do everything wrong and hope to get to some of their kids in the process... Hungry kids don't do well in school and kids that don't do well in school don't stay in schools... Just restoration of the money we used to spend for school breakfast programs would help but it isn't just about breakfast programs but child care subsidies which have now been frozen for the last 6 years... And head satrt programs... And livable wages... And decnt health care... And, and... Okay, I was going to provide a "case study" about ***downward mobilty*** where kids who have everything end up living under bridges and I promise that I will do that but I felt that before I could tell that story I needed to clear out a little more misconceptual deadwood... Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone here... This just happens to be something that I *wish* sometimes I knew nuthing about... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:43 PM (Sidebar: as I understand it, psychotropic drugs came on-stream in a big way in the 1970s, and this was the rationale for the large-scale deinstitutionalization that occurred in those years - in theory, many people did not need to be institutionalized if on a psychotropic drug regimen). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:02 PM Thanks, bobert, for explaining that in easy language. I, too, know that story. Not only are many of the mentally ill unable to care for themselves, they are easy prey on the streets. Yes, there are many examples. Two kids who were born to a mother with a mental age of 12 who had been raped. We had no proof, but by the time we were aware of the kids, it was certain that they, too, had been sexually abused. The youngest had normal intelligence but what chance does he have? Then there was the brilliant physicist who was schizophrenic and violent. They kept putting him in prison for assault. He would return to the streets and assault again. One day he came at a police officer with a knife. He was shot and killed. His daughter was my best friend. He left behind a wife and three kids. The two sons have met untimely deaths. We can go on and on and, yes, meself, it does coincide with new miracle drugs that were supposed to be cost effective. It didn't work out and this social experiment has gone on long enough. We have the same problem in Canada. Its fine for some but definitely not for others. We need to provide safe places for these people, many of whom are the homeless we see on the streets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:05 PM meself, That is true to a large extent. Much more effective antipsychotic medications really made a big difference in the number of people with severe and persistent mental illness (SPMI)who did not require long-term hospitalization because of florid psychosis. However, costs were what really drove changes in government policy. It was thought a lot of money could be saved by moving the mentally ill into the community. Hospitalization is expensive, most state psychiatric facilities are State funded--Medicaid will not pay for hospitalizatin in a State facility. And the mentally ill were turned out in droves with no thought to what their needs were to live in the community. And law makers still don't get that it costs as much or more than hospitalization to adequately serve people with SPMI in the community. The community services, housing, (both supervised and unsupervised), psychosocial rehab programs, mobile crisis services, ACTT services, and income maintenance programs are still grossly inadequate. The mentally ill are a disenfranchised population, they have no political clout, and no real hope of political power. While plenty of people in the USA arwe homeless who are not mentally ill, the dramatic rise in homelessness in the USA over the last 25 years correlates very strongly with the disinstitutionalization movement. I was working in the public welfare system back then, in a rural area and was pretty oblivious to it. bobert, you know a lot more about the immediate aftermath of deinstitutionalization than do I. However, I moved over into public mental health after I went back to graduate school for my MSW, and have been working with SPMI populations, as well as other indigent populations in need of mental health and psychotherapy since the early 90's. It was bad then. It is much worse now, at least in North Carolina, where we have just started another cycle of 'Mental Health Reform' (Ha! to quote Bobert.) Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:07 PM Good point, GUEST, but yer "in theory" is the operative term here... Yeah, If I could be with 50 clients every day to be sure they stayed on their meds we certainly would have had a higher successs rate... Problem is that wasn't and still isn't possible... One thing that could help would be more money for "adult day care" where folks, as part of a condition for being on the street, would have to check in daily and perhaps these programs could administer the meds, mush the way a nurse might administer drugs in a hospital setting... BTW, and I'm not too why this hasn't been brought up by anyone, but out local departments of mental health have also undergone cuts in funding... And, BTW, part 2.... As much as I hate to bring this up and perhaps it has changed somewhat and I will defer to Janie on that but when I was a socail worker there wasn't a ltta love between the folks in Social Services and Mental Health... Oh sure, we were cordial and went to some of the same training session but when it came down to clients the folks I worked with tried to get the mental health folks more involved and vice versa... Bottom line, a loot of clients were like ping-pong balls between the two agencies... Janie??? How's it in yer parts these days??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:21 PM I can only speak about the community in which I practice, Bobert, but here, we have a pretty darn good relationship with Adult Services. I think the child therapists and case managers also tend to have very cooperative relationships with the Child Protective Services workers. Where we do bump heads sometimes is between Adult Mental Health and Child Protective Services. CPS workers don't always understand that I can not share with them chapter and verse of what goes on in a therapy session with a parent and have any hope of doing effective therapy. Of course I report any instances of neglect or abuse of children, but the actual work of therapy needs to stay between the therapist and the client. It is otherwise impossible to build the trust and rapport essential to successful therapy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:31 PM Oh, don't get me started on CPS, Janie... That's an area where I can get really angry... Like who wrote those regs??? Some angry guy who gets his jollies beatin' his kids??? Heck, when I was in the field I'd reprt lots of stuff to CPS and they would say stuff like, "Did you see the kid gettin' beaten?" and I'd look 'round at kids with whelts all over 'um an' adults screamin' at the top of their lings at 'um and CPS would so much take the referral unless I'd say that I witnessed the beatings... Hey, it's bad 'nuff that these adults felt is was oaky to threaten and scream at kids in the presence of, ahhhh, me, a social worker but worse that the kids were obviously being beaten and CPS wouldn't do anything... Hope that has changed, too... Glad to hear that Mental Health and Social Services is doing well in yer parts... That's a bit of good news... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: mg Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:52 PM I wrote a big long thing about vocational education but I guess it didn't show up. ANyway, I do not believe for a minute that people are doomed to poverty, if they live where there are opportunities..some places it is hard to imagine working your way out of it, say Bangladesh..oh my goodness..where are great miracles happening every day? Where are the microloans started and who got the Nobel Peace Prize? People absolutely, if they are of normal (oh a loaded word) health and vigor can, in many places, get out of poverty. They do it every day. Mental health problems are a whole other story and need lots of intervention, but even many people with mental health problems could be contributing something in a sheltered situation, and many are. They need a lot of help. One thing we do, another sensitive area, is pour so much money into special education situations where there is not much hope for a person realistically to become productive. I am talking about profound, severe cases. Those same resources put into vocational counseling and training of people with poor environments but "normal" intelligence and capacity, would reap thousands of times the benefits. This is not what people want to hear though and not where the money goes. I have seen money going for one instructional assistant taking one child to the bathroom each day and not much else. That same money could have funded a vocational counselor, such as me, as I would have worked for those wages, and Icould have placed 100 students perhaps a year in programs that would have gotten them out of poverty. Don't tell me it can't be done. You aren't talking to the right people. It is very important to listen to people with different approaches and not thing one group or profession has all the answers. They have part of the answers. Not all of them. Look at the problems in the Romanian orphanages years ago...it is obvious to the casual observer that so many of the problems there could have been solved by a good plumber or two. Refugee camps..plumbing. Homelessness on the streets, plumbing. Migrant worker housing, plumbing. Need to hear from nurses and place them in the schools and all over the place. They tend to be very results oriented. This is a multi-faceted problem, poverty, and there are some people who it is fairly easy to get up and out. Some it will be impossible and they will have teo be supported in a clean and decent enviornment with supervision. Many of them should just get a small amount for incidentals and should not be given a social security check that can be stolen or not spent on essentials. There need to be almost dormitory situations for many people who otherwise do end up on the streets. There needs to be a sorting process so that people who need to be institutionalized are to least extent possible of course, that those who just need some support, such as day care and transportation get that, and there needs to be not just a financial safety net, but a real safety net, so they can take the bus late at night, so an ambulance will come if they are called, so girls can walk to school unhassled in the mornings, so children can play outside once again. Some of this is not too hard to accomplish...probably if you keep one person out of jail you can hire one policewoman if the money was in the same pot. We could do a lot with better lighting. We could do better security in housing projects. We could have more cameras pretty much everywhere and I know people would complain but too bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 11 Mar 07 - 09:50 PM Do not become disabled in the US of A unless you are married to some one with a good job and you are already carried on their medical insurance. You are screwed whether you have much of a work history under your belt before you become disabled, or whether you don't. If you do have much of a work history and you become disabled because of mental illness, you are, in some ways, doubly screwed. Without the work history, your only income will be from a program referred to as SSI, and that assumes you do not have assets in excess of $2000, including retirement savings. For 2007, you will get a maximum of $623 a month. That is what you have to live on. In most States you will also get Medicaid. That $623 is all you get to pay rent, utilities, property taxes, household supplies, vehicle or transportation expenses, over-the-counter medical expenses, a $3.00 co-pay for each prescription drug you have to take and for some doctor visits, most of your food (you will probably get about $40 a month in Food Stamps, clothes, everything. There is some housing assistance available but the waiting lists are very long for section 8 housing, and the public housing projects are very dangerous places to live, even in rural area or a small town such as the one in which I live. Where I live there is no public transportation, no soup kitchen, no rooming houses. A dilapidated, rat infested mobile home in a slum trailer court will cost you $450/month plus all utilities. After you pay your rent, you have $177/month to pay for utilites, soap, toilet paper, food, laundry mat, to pay some one gas money to take you where you need to go, or to keep a car running, licensed and insuranced, and for the co-pays on any prescription medications you take. If you have-let's say--schizoaffective disorder, you are probably prescribed (and yes, really do need) 4 to 6 psychiatric medications a month, at $3.00 co-pay per prescription. If you have any other medical problems that require medication, add $3.00 for each additional prescription. Do the math. What are going to let go? Let them cut off the heat or the water so you can take your meds and eat? Or visa versa. In 2005, there were approximately 114,000 adults between ages 18 and 64 receiving SSI disability benefits in North Carolina. That is only 1 of 50 States. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: mg Date: 11 Mar 07 - 10:23 PM |
