BS: Poverty in the USA

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 07:14 AM

Too much readin' and too little time before work today...

Will be back this evening...

Values??? Yeah, Janie, and we can run with them for quite awhile...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 07:47 AM

Very interesting thread. Now, I was raised in the poorest county of one of the poorest states in the union. I have seen poverty first hand. I know the damage it does to one's psyche. So, tell me this: How many of you were born into such poverty, as opposed to most of you who have only been observers?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 01:33 PM

Kendall - My parents were both born into poverty and I was born to working class poor. Aside from their own determination and hard work, I believe that it was the GI Bill and good economic times that helped my parents claw their way into a better situation.

By the time I was born they could be considered working-class poor. My children were born to a university educated (thanks to the Canadian govt.), single mom who struggles to maintain a middle-class lifestyle.

Yes, it can be done with support and government assistance but...

what Wordsmith said is very, very true. Poverty is a social shame. Each time you succeed by climbing your way up the socio-economic ladder, you have to hide the shame of your past. Its like entering another country. You don't speak the same language, your manners are different and you solve problems in a different way.

You no longer have a social structure to support you. You become a stranger in unchartered territory. Not only that, the family and friends from your past, although they say they are proud of you, treat you like you are now different than they are. You are not the same.

So there you have it. You become a stranger to your family and friends and your new peers know that you are different but they can't quite put their finger on it. I'm watching my highly educated daughter experience the same thing. Her experiences, attitudes and her politics are different than mine and she struggles to fit in with her peers, socially.

Sometimes you wonder if its worth it or if you should have just stayed within the security of your own social class. Wordsmith's example was excellent, "the safest place for her was with the family to which her ancestors had belonged. So she stayed."

It takes an immense amount of courage to leave behind all that is familiar to you.   "You cannot thereby command respect for them or grant them self-respect, because these things are not within the power of the market or legislature." Thanks, Wordsmith for explaining why there is no neat toggle switch.

I still advocate, however, for 'equal opportunity'. Its important to have choices and to know that what you become is not pre-destined. Its called hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 01:37 PM

"How many of you were born into such poverty"

We were so poor that if you didn't wake up with a hard-on Christmas Day ya had nothin' to play with.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 08:26 PM

There are many poverty jokes, but I'm not going to get into those.

When someone told me that in her situation every morning, whoever left the house first was the best dressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 09:39 PM

You're right. But I had to take the place of the bait in the mouse trap.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 10:12 PM

I am not trying to paint a rosy picture or deny that poverty exists in the US but I found that an average of 3.6 percent of Americans suffered from hunger in 2004/02 according to the USDA:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/err11/err11appD.pdf page 2 table D1

Prevalence rates of food insecurity and food insecurity with hunger
by State, 1996-98 (average), 1999-2001 (average), and 2002-04 (average)

This is less than 1 in 27.7 adults and kids, not 1 in 5 but it is still to high.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 10:18 PM

That's more than 11,000,000 people. Been there and done that. "I''ll tell you one thing, Jack, you listen when your stomach speaks [thank you Jesse]."

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 05:14 AM

I'm not trying to split hairs, but that USDA figure is actually the percentage of households in the USA that experience hunger, and not the percentage of individuals. Relative to many other places, even that is a low figure. but in the USA, with our resources and with our dumpsters full of uneaten food, no one should have to go hungry for a night.

See http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/hunger-facts-domestic.html for more statistical information on hunger in the United States.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: kendall
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 07:02 AM

The unemployment rate is around 5% which is a relativly small number of Americans, but when you are out of work, you are 100% out of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 10:23 PM

"And the Democrats are no better. Let's not forget that it was Clinton who dismantled the system of social welfare we fought for in the 1930s and 60s. He slashed the welfare rolls from 12 to 5 million in a matter of years, and now that there are no jobs to go around, there is no safety net for millions of the most vulnerable members of American society. But the fact of the matter is, we don't want welfare - we want quality jobs, health care, housing, and education, and we don't mind working hard to get these things. But the capitalist system is based on the endless pursuit of profit - our interests come second to the interests of the CEOs and billionaires."

From here.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 11:44 PM

Values.

I'm gonna ramble a bit and not try to tie things together real tightly here.

There are some who would say that many people who live in poverty make choices that put them there and/or keep them there. I agree.

There are some who say that many people who don't live in poverty make choices that cause or contribute to creating and maintaining poverty. I agree.

In all societies, beyond a certain age, people are expected to take responsibility for the choices they make. (Responsibility is not synonymous with blame.) I think this is reasonable, and when people can see and do this, my observation is that it is empowering. If I don't understand that I have responsibility, how can I ever believe that I have the power to effect change from within or from without?

In all my years of practice have I observed lots of people making bad or ineffective choices? Oh yes indeed!

In all my years of practice have I seen people make impulsive and needlessly uninformed choices? You betcha!

In all my years of practice have I ever encountered one single individual whose goal was to make bad choices? Never. Nada. Not once.

With respect to personal well-being, my observations and experience has been that individuals always make the best choice they know how to make at any particular time given the knowledge and the resources (internal and external) available to them at the time. Not once in 35 years of practice have I observed anyone approach a choice from the standpoint of "I want to make the worst possible decision that I can right now," even when they may in fact be making that worst possible decision.

One of the primary influences on the choices each of us make are our values. Our paradigm. Our beliefs about ourselves, others, and the world. Our values permeate every big and small decision we make. Our values/beliefs determine the color of the lens through which we view the world. They are the scales on which we weigh the worth of ourselves and others.

No where in the 'rule book' does it say that all the values/beliefs, both major and minor, we harbor as individuals, as communities or as societies must be, or are, congruent.

More often than not, people and societies mistake values and beliefs for 'fact' or 'objective reality,' (whatever that is:O)

So--what do values have to do with poverty?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 11:51 PM

Well, for one, societal values that are in conflict with one another lead to social welfare programs that do not come anywhere close to fulfilling their mandate.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 01:02 AM

Janie - I agree with most of what you say but I wonder about this - "One of the primary influences on the choices each of us make are our values."

I think the primary influence is education because learning to think critically gives us the ability to make informed decisions. Thats why education should be a right.

If you are uneducated, you must rely on values which are contained within a belief system that is handed down from one generation to the next.

So yes, values are the primary influence but values can change or be altered depending on your level of education.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 01:31 AM

Education is the most important weapon in all battles, poverty, drugs, health. Yes it should be an EQUAL RIGHT to all.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: kendall
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 07:04 AM

Peace, you make an excellent point. We don't want welfare, we want jobs. Ok, one thing we could do is stop buying foreign goods. Sure you can save a few bucks on a pair of jeans made in Singapore, but what are they doing for us?
We are selling our country to China and handing them the knife that could be used to stab us in the back. Of course, when they do, we will not be wearing an expensive made in America by union workers shirt!

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 02:08 PM

Janie: You may be right about it being the percentage of households. I can't find that report any more.

I did find another report that put the actual number of children as .7% in 2004. A far cry from 20%.

Historically it was

1998        1.0
1999         .7
2000         .8
2001         .6
2002         .8
2003         .6
2004         .7

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/err11/err11b.pdf page 5

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 02:15 PM

0.7 +/- 0.1 between 1999 and 2004 inclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 03:14 PM

Fact:

*Exxon's 20005 profit of $36.13B is more that the GNP of 2/3 of the world's nations...

Facts:

Mobil Exxon profit margin in 2006 10.6%
Pfizer profit margin in 2006      15.7%
Citigroup profit margin in 2006   18.7%

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 09:32 PM

Barry:

"Education is the most important weapon in all battles, poverty, drugs, health. Yes it should be an EQUAL RIGHT to all."

There is free public education in the US K-12. There is even free tuition at many colleges including Harvard to the underpriveleged.

However the people need to take advantage of the opportunity and strive to obtain an education.

Why do the Asian Americans do so much better in school, graduating more often and continuing through college more often? Are they more privileged than other xxx-american minorities?

"The national graduation rate for the public school class of 2000 was 69%. The rate for white students was 76%; for Asian students it was 79%; for African-American students it was 55%; for Hispanic students it was 53%; and for Native Americans it was 57%."
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_31.htm

"The study, released recently by the Public Policy Institute of California, found that only 13 percent of Hispanics and 15 percent of Blacks had earned a bachelor's degree. That compared with rates of 31 percent for Whites and 62 percent for Asian Americans, based on 2000 Census data.

The study found that 11 percent of American Indians earn bachelor's degrees, the lowest rate of any group."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_3_22/ai_n13619954

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:14 PM

I suspect that if one were to analyze the demographic attributes of high school drop-outs, controlling for race and ethnicity, that the most common denominator would be lower socio-economic status.

Ditto for demographic statistics related to both college attendance and college graduation rates.

What all groups with elevated high school drp out rates have in common, is they are all groups that have long histories of being devalued because of race, ethnicity and/or socio-economic status.

'Isms' are expressions of values. Racism and prejudice of all kinds embody values. While individuals, families, communities and minority groups of all sorts may hold values that differ in some ways from those of the larger or more powerful society, these smaller groups also absorb the values of the larger and more powerful society.

Children are sponges. If a minority child lives in a society that devalues that child's group, the child will internalize that and devalue themselves. If a child is told they are not likely to succeed at something. They are less likely to succeed at something.

And most of us prefer to stay away from places we do not feel welcomed or valued.

One way to cope with this is to be defiant. One way to cope with this is to insulate oneself and find a sense of power and belonging in a gang. Etc. Etc. Etc.

In line with dianavan's remarks about values and education, the age at which we really begin to 'lose' these kids in school and also the age at which they are becoming capable of those critical thinking skills. It is the age at which they are ready to try out different ideas and identities and values that may be different from those of their parents. From a developmental perspective, when that child disengages, a golden, and perhaps critical opportunity has been lost. Or at the very least, the window of opportunity to acquire or to reshape critical values and beliefs becomes substantially smaller.

A kid that is really engaged and who really has a sense of ownership, belonging and entitlement to be whatever they have the potential to be does not suddenly flip a switch off and quit school at age 16. The process of alienation and disengagement begins well before the point at which the kid drops out.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:22 PM

"The process of alienation and disengagement begins well before the point at which the kid drops out."

THAT is a major truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:33 PM

In my previous post

... begin to 'lose' these kids in school and also the age ...

should have read
...begin to 'lose' these kids in school is also the age....

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 12:44 AM

Dickey, Harvard & the few other colleges that you mention just started this practice. You said many. Name me many that have been doing this practice for any number of years.

I do know that in the US K-12 is free, I'm still putting 2 through their schooling, 1 in college & 1 on his way this yr.

So what are you trying to say?

<"Why do the Asian Americans do so much better in school, graduating more often and continuing through college more often? Are they more privileged than other xxx-american minorities?">

<"The national graduation rate for the public school class of 2000 was 69%. The rate for white students was 76%; for Asian students it was 79%; for African-American students it was 55%; for Hispanic students it was 53%; and for Native Americans it was 57%."
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_31.htm">

<"The study, released recently by the Public Policy Institute of California, found that only 13 percent of Hispanics and 15 percent of Blacks had earned a bachelor's degree. That compared with rates of 31 percent for Whites and 62 percent for Asian Americans, based on 2000 Census data.">

<"The study found that 11 percent of American Indians earn bachelor's degrees, the lowest rate of any group.">

Again, what are you trying to say Dickey?

Are you trying to point out that American minorities a born too stupid or too poor. That they are they from a more socio-economic depressed class? Are you thinking that Asian Americans are born wealthier or that they're born brighter?

I'm not challenging your stats Dickey, which I'd tend to be ok with. But seeing as you attached my name to them I'm wondering what the point was & if you're trying to say that the xxx-american minorities can only fault themselves for being born too poor, born too stupid or just had the bad luck of being too stupid & too poor to pull themselves out of a rut?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 12:54 AM

Barry: I asked a question. It was not based on any assumtions. Do you know the answer. The reasons?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 01:00 AM

Poverty, Dickey, Poverty!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Wordsmith
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 03:04 AM

I'm glad connections were made by more than one. Thanks. In response to Kendall's question - a valid point - I wrote a big spiel about my own life, then deleted it. I've been relatively lucky. It's like that song, Sinatra used to sing: That's Life. Since, someone mentioned the company, I thought I'd share these stats instead:

In 2006, ExxonMobil made $39.5B (that's billion) in profits.

That breaks down to:
$1,252 per second,
$4.5M per hour,
$108M per day.

While you read this, ExxonMobil made another $15,000! (SL 2.02.07)

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 05:24 AM

"Why do the Asian Americans do so much better in school, graduating more often and continuing through college more often?"

The roles and responsibilies in Chinese families are very clearly defined. If you are a Chinese student, you don't have to do anything other than study. Your food is prepared for you, your laundry is taken care of, you aren't expected to work and you don't have to care for little brothers and sisters. You are an investment for the future. With everything being provided for you, you are expected to do well.

If all family systems were as effecient, their children would also be excellent students.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: kendall
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 07:26 AM

A few years ago there was a college professor who did a study and came up with this theory, that of the three distinct races, the most and least intelligent were:

1. Asian
2.Caucasian
3. Blacks.

He had a number of death threats and I wonder if someone finally got him?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 02:57 PM

Barry: So poverty is the reaqson for poverty?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 04:49 PM

No, Dickey, it's a lack of education & the understanding of their situation & the lack of necessary means to escape it.
I believe that poverty is an institution that serves the very wealthy, the very powerful in government & in the private sector and that witout it the distrubation of knowledge & wealth would be more evenly spread but it would be a cost that those that at present & past had & have & will never part with. So the poor are the grease that the wheels of fortune grind & there they will remain.

Without them the rich & powerful would not live so well!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: kendall
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 05:02 PM

If we all had phDs, who would flip our burgers?

Seems to me that it goes like this. It's circular, ignorance, poverty, crime. Round and round it goes.

Remember the bumper sticker that said, "If you think education is expensive, consider ignorance". Believe me, it's hard to learn on an empty stomach.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 05:13 PM

People who ain't 'been there' generally do not understand, Kendall. To many people, missing breakfast and lunch is hunger. (That remark is directed to no one on this thread.) Some folks will never understand. That's just the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 08:59 PM

Haven't had much computer time over the last last 3 days and not mush this evening but since I was last here I noticed a very distinct pattern... There are two camps here...

One camp wants to discuss some very heady stuff...

The other, for what ever reasons, has no interst in discusssing the subject but throwing out endless stats, re-enforcing what my Stats 201 professor told the class on the 1st day which was, "I can use stats to prove 1 = 2 or anything I want to prove..." and then on to prove that 1 = 2!!!

Stat folks, you know, the ones who somehow come up with those 1 = 2 kinda stas in discussions seem to me to be hiding from the realities of the discussion... That's been my obseravtion throughout my life and it holds here in Mudville...

But that's kinda about ***values***... Yeah, there are folks who rather than say to themselves "Hmmmmm, poverty is a real thing... There are millions of kids that will go hungry tonight... What can I do" who rather than stop there will go searching for stats that say the oppisite...

The only conclusion on why folks would dismiss poverty, or balme it on it's vitims, is that these folks hust don't want to share... I can't think of any other reason why folks would go to such an extent to ***rationalize*** po9verty as some kind of ***career choice***???

So, yeah...

...it does come down to "values"...

Some folks "value" every life and have a desire that everyone has an equal right to prosperity and happiness...

Some folks don't and have a "value" that, "If you din't want to be poor, you should have picked richer parents..."

Okay, to be fair, some folks do find their way outta the cycle... But it's very few... Janie and I have seen it up close...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 12:31 AM

Bobert:

You are the one that brought the stats into the discussion. Why?

Now that they are here, if someone feels that they are not accurate or do not relate to the real poverty situation in America, I think they can discuss it.

You throw out a number about how much money Exxon/Mobil made. Is that the reason for poverty? People are piss poor in Mexico where the state took over the oil companies, some of them were seized from the US. Are the people in Mexico better off because they have no huge oil company there?

There has to be the biggest everything. Hamburger chain, ball of string, city, etc. Exxon sells the most oil and therefore makes the most money. Is that the reason for poverty? Get rid of Exxon and the next oil company becomes the biggest.

Exxon made $39 billion off of $339 billion in revenues. Citicorp made $24 billion off of $131 billion in revenues. Nearly twice the profit margin. Is Citicorp less evil than Exxon because they had less revenues or more evil because they made a higher percentage of profit? Microsoft made $12 billion profit on $39 billion in revenues, a 30% profit. GM lost $10 billion on $192 billion revenue.

Stating how much money the largest corporation made is a red herring, a straw man issue, a diversion and will not get to the root of the reason for poverty.

Companies want people with money that they can sell goods and services to, not poor people that can't buy anything and are a poor credit risk.

The only way companies can profit off of poor people is from cheap labor such as illegal aliens. The same anti-poverty crowd is pro-illegal alien. These people work cheap and bring down wages all over the country. The law that makes it illegal for companies to hire illegal aliens needs to be enforced. That will increase wages on the low end of the scale and help poor people.

Now, on to the root causes of poverty. It begins at home, with the family. All you need to do is study the Asian minority for example. They have a sense of family that is lacking among other minority groups. They start out with less than other minorities and soon they are middle class.

It is very true that education is the key to eliminating poverty but the people must want and seek to get an education like the Asian minority does. The government cannot do that for people, they have to do that themselves. Civil rights leaders need to encourage young poor people to get and education and tell them it is possible, give them a positive attitude. Instead I hear them blaming others for the problem and sending the message that they can't get ahead because other people are preventing them from getting ahead.

Dianavan said: "I quite often wonder why some people seem to dwell in poverty while others are able to lift themselves out of misery. I think it may have something to do with the ability to network, socially, and the ability to access services and goods that are available.

I also know that to escape the cycle of poverty, you must be able to see that you have choices and are able to make decisions. You must have hope. When people feel that they are trapped, they become helpless. I also know that you must be very assertive about your right to access the programs that are out there."

It looks to me like the Civil rights leaders need to be giving the poor people a message of hope and making them aware of the opportunities to escape poverty.

I don't want to belittle the sacrifices or important and valuable contributions to society Bobert has made with his social work. He knows a hell of a lot more than I do about the plight of the poor down in the trenches but you have to treat the disease, not just the symptoms. Citing a bunch of stats that may or may not be accurate and that may or may not related to the problem are not helpful and only serve to exacerbate the problem.

The Brown Daily Herald

"Problems facing the black community in America are primarily due to the breakdown of the nuclear family, the Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson told a half-filled MacMillan 117 Tuesday. His speech was followed by a heated question-and-answer session.

Though he cited personal experiences with segregation during his childhood, Peterson said the major perpetrators of racism in America today are organizations such as the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and black leaders like the Revs. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton....."

Bill Cosby

""....What was needed, said Cosby, was "parent power!" He elaborated: "Proper education has to begin at home.... We don't need another federal commission to study the problem...."

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:24 AM

Beaubear (to borrow from Ebbie) don't get sidetracked by things that don't really matter to this discussion.

You and I, and others posting here, Wordsmith for example, have seen it up close. But others here have lived it.

There is nothing cut and dried, nothing straight forward, nothing black-or-white about any meaningful discussion or exploration of values.

Most of us are familiar with the term 'value-judgement.'

A more accurate phrasing of the way most of us often operationalize that term is 'moral judgement passed on those whose values appear to differ substantially from my own.'

People also tend to pass moral judgement on themselves when their lives, for myriad reasons, don't measure up to the values they have internalized.

Now, I ain't sayin' that we should nver make moral judgements. However, many of the moral judgements we make on others or ourselves, are made on the basis of insufficient information or evidence. When one realizes that, those jedgements tend to be more tentative.

I think, to at least some degree, poverty does cause poverty. Or rather the conditions that accompany poverty and are the result of poverty do contribute to the perpetuation of poverty. I hope we all agree, however, that the conditions that create and perpetuate poverty are extremely varied and complex. In addition, to borrow a term from psycholigical concepts, the factors involved are more oten than not overdetermined. (Means like the layers of an onion. Identify one valid cause. Peel it away. There is another layer beneath it. And another, and another, and another.) The number of layers varies from one place to another, and from one individual to another.) It would not be acurate at all to say that a prime cause of poverty is poverty.

Values are one ring of the onion. Remember that any one ring of the onion consists of many thin layers that can also be separated and examined.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:31 AM

One of the false assumptions that I think we make in this country--which has the actual physical resources at hand to shelter, feed, clothe and provide adequate medical care to our entire population--is that the vast majority of people living in this country who are poor, have the capacity to function and work well enough to pull themselves out of poverty, given enough help with education and work skill development.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 02:38 AM

& then there are those that are so beaten that they don't care anymore, life itself have no value, they value nothing, for them there is no hope, they see no hope, they will never see hope nor have any values unless someone or something runs deep & heavy interference. They are LOST & there are many of them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 08:00 AM

Janie,

Yeah, it is complex but the one thing that you have pointed out and both of us has seen is the strong correlation between kids who grow up in poverty and that same group who grow up to be poor adults...

There isn't a lot of upward mobility in the US...

What is most disturbing is that it really doesn't have to be like this... The country has the resources but not the courage to redistribute those resources...

Sadder yet, much of the wealth that the US enjoys was created by the very folks who share the least in the product (wealth) such as alot of black folk, in particular, who were responsible for the building of much of the country's infastructure in the 19th century of which the economis engine runs... But these folks didn't share in the spils...

Opps... Gotta go to work...

Later

Beaubear

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 11:22 AM

Here is Bobert's message for poor people: "black folk, in particular, who were responsible for the building of much of the country's infastructure in the 19th century of which the economis engine runs... But these folks didn't share in the spils"

You were screwed by whitey and he owes you something. Until you get it you will always be poor.

According to the 1860 Census, 8% of familes held slaves. How many Americans died fighting slavery? How much do their decendants owe? How much do the Africans that sold fellow Africans into slavery owe?

Keep on sending those "your can't get ahead because you did not get an even break" messages Bobert, that will eliminate poverty for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 11:40 AM

The REST of the numbers that were left out:

Total Population
31,183,582

Free Colored Persons
476,748

Total Free Population
27,233,198

Total Number of Slaves
3,950,528

Slaves as % of Population
13%

Total Number of Families
5,155,608

Total Number of Slaveholders
393,975

% of Families Owning Slaves
8%

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 11:46 AM

I cannot believe that anyone can try to blame poor people for being poor. What a disgusting thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 12:10 PM

I don't see where Bobert said anything about anybody owing anything.
Dickey are you now shoveling words into Bobert's mouth?

What was said & what you're saying he said are worlds apart!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 03:22 PM

What does "But these folks didn't share in the spils..." mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Scoville
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 05:08 PM

"Spoils". It was just a typo.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:17 PM

Typical rich kid response, Dickey... You are jerk...

And, thanks Scoville, fir the assist... Dickey knew what I meant... But he is a rich fat man who sits 24/7 in front of his computer with his smug little mentality harrassin' me about anything that happens to be stuck up his butt...

I'd like to have him work one real day with me in the real world of, ahhhh, real work... Then he's have some level; of understanding of what life is about without the silver spoon stuck in his face...

Or better yet, give Dicky a night livin' under a brifge in Trenton, N.J...

Yeah....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:47 PM

Exxon is at it again:
When found foraging through a neighbor's trash for food, 19-year-old Bruce Jackson was just 4 feet tall and weighed only 45 pounds.
        
(AP) A couple accused of starving their four adopted sons was indicted Wednesday by a grand jury, a prosecutor said.

Raymond and Vanessa Jackson were each indicted on 28 counts of aggravated assault and child endangerment in a case that inspired widespread outrage and was a touchstone for efforts to reform New Jersey's child welfare system.

The couple was charged in October with aggravated assault and child endangerment after a 19-year-old adopted son was found foraging through a neighbor's trash for food. Bruce Jackson was just 4 feet tall and weighed only 45 pounds.

Authorities found three younger adopted boys in the family's home who were undersized.

By the end of February, the boys, who were placed with other families, had gained between 15 and 33 pounds and grown in height between 1.5 and 6.5 inches, authorities said.

The Jacksons have said the boys had eating disorders that predated their placement with the family. Their defenders said they took in troubled children no one else would take.

But officials said the boys were locked out of the Jackson family's kitchen, were fed uncooked pancake batter and resorted to eating wallboard.

Three girls in the home — two adopted and one a foster child — were of normal size. All seven children were taken from the Jacksons by the state child welfare agency.

A report issued in February by Kevin Ryand, New Jersey's independent child advocate, said state workers consistently failed to carry out state policies in the case. Ryand recommended sweeping changes for the state's Division of Youth and Family Services.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:11 PM

This is a sad and disturbing story - but what exactly is your point in putting it in this thread, with your apparently sarcastic if vague introductory remark about Exxon?

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:29 PM

There is no point, meself... He just loves the sound of his keyboard... Or keyboards... Fir all we know Richey may have a staff of righties pumpin' out all this crap...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:52 PM

What does this have to do with poverty?

You are part of the problem, Dickey. There are too many people like you that want to blame the poor for everything.