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BS: Poverty in the USA
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 01 Apr 07 - 11:19 AM Ignore this post. I'm experimenting with something. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 01 Apr 07 - 05:08 PM Just don't inhale ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 01 Apr 07 - 05:11 PM LOL! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 01 Apr 07 - 05:12 PM I inhale. BUT, I don't absorb! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 01 Apr 07 - 06:23 PM Well, if yer not goin' to inhale, then pass it over to me.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 01 Apr 07 - 06:42 PM Don't Bobert that joint, my friend... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 01 Apr 07 - 07:01 PM Bobert: Where is your answer to whom is supposed to rent the apartments costing less than the average? Where is the answer to why you claim that the the funding for breakfast programs needs to be brought back when it dodn't go anywhere? Excuse me but I do not wish to shut up. The reason I am using the $575 low number for an apartments is because that is the lowest price I can prove exists by searching on the net. I am sure lower priced ones exist. I was born in Alexandria and I have lived and worked in the area all my life. I have seen every part of DC including parts that do not exist any more due to urban renewal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 01 Apr 07 - 07:25 PM Jeez, Dickey--go stalk on someone in another thread! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 01 Apr 07 - 08:08 PM Yeah, Dickey... All your are proving her, my frined is: 1. Yopu don't have any desire in discussinfg this subject 2. You don't wnat anyone else diascussing this subject 3. You don't know jack about DC... 4. When offered an opportunity to learn jack about DC you run like a scared dog back to yer little juvinileistic game playin'... Ya know what, Dcikey... I think the reason that you won't meet me in DC so I can learnbt you up on the realities of poverty is that you are really a 13 year old girl and yer daddy won't let you... Have a nice day... I have no more time for chickensh*ts like you for a while... Go stalk someone who cares.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 01 Apr 07 - 08:24 PM I stay off of most hot topic threads these days so was not familiar with Dickey, while many of you already were. Like most people, I have to learn from my own mistakes. It is my nature to try to get along and it is my training to try to foster communication. Problem is, sometimes I find myself reinventing the wheel. I stand by my remarks regarding anger and power, but I failed to recognize that the rest of you have had opportunities on other threads to assess whether Dickey was worth engaging, and you already knew there is no substance there with which to engage in dialogue. I really didn't want him to be a distraction, but in fact, he really hasn't been, because so many of you already knew you weren't dealing with anything with any real substance. Dickey--I hope you are not suffering from the delusion that you have contributed anything to the discussion on this thread. You may or may not like or accept what Bobert or anyone else here has had to say. You may challenge their statements til you are blue in the face. You can challenge their assertions all you want. Can't nobody here stop you. According to the commercials, can't nobody stop the coppertop bunny, either. but who cares. It's just a robot. You may be one fine, smart fella in 3D. Wouldn't know. And probably never will, cuz judging from your posting history, you aren't interested in folk music and aren't likely to turn up at the Getaway or other music gatherings where mudcatters might meet one another. Liberals or conservatives, radicals or reactionaries, completely apolitical, whatever our pov's about all the things that get discussed in the BS section, nearly everyone here on the 'Cat have one firm piece of common ground. Folk Music. You apparently don't even have that. You apparently are just something that got its key cranked up, stumbled in here, maybe bumped into a wall so the 'Parade' function button got pushed, and since that is what you are programmed to do, that is what you do. Parade across the field, bump into the fence, turn around as you are programmed to do, and parade back. On this thread, you act like a mindless robot, programmed with a few set responses to external stimuli. You have linked to the words of other people. Specifically, propoganda pieces. You have quoted statistics, but have not evidenced any critical thinking. You haven't really even expressed a cogent opinion about anything. In spite of being very specifically invited to do so. And you think you are entitled to a response from Bobert? There are some very articulate conservative thinkers on the Mudcat. I bet they cringe when you arrive on the scene. Mindless. Mindless. Mindless. When Bobert called you a shill, he wasn't calling you names. He was naming your behavior. Sorry folks. I guess I just had to find out for myself. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 01 Apr 07 - 08:35 PM Okay, I think I got the little pest calmed down long enough to rewrite the post I started about "anger" and maybe this will be the condensed version as the longer one wouldn't stick but... Speakin' stricky from my own obseravtions during my years as social worker I found that folks would come in with all kinds of humanistic and idealistic feeelings and after 5 years woule be pared down into two categories: 1. Those who still felt deeply that that could make a difference and were openly "angry" and... 2. Those who had thrown in the towel, stuffed their idealism in their tummies and were just going thru the motions... I wish there was a 3 category but this is purdy much waht I saw... There wer 6 of us in my Adult Services unit and Ginny Dize and I were the only 2 of the 6 that fit in that first category... The other 4 fell very much into that 2nd category... No, I'm not saying that these 4 did absolutley nuthin' but danged close... They had become paper pushers and weren't trying to put together comprhensive plans for their clients but the bare minimum... Hey, first of all, given the lack of real resources we were dealing with, I'm not making an judgement on these four... Heck, they had learned how to get along... Ginny and I hadn't... The point here is that these are folks on the front lines (think "Support the Troops" here) of our waelth nation's efforts to deal with the large percenttage of folks who live in poverty... It is my premise that this war (which it isn't) on poverty is being waged by folks who either no longer give a danged or go home angry every night... This is ***not*** a formula for success... It's bad enough that under Reagan and again under Clinton our nation sent an undeniable message to the poor that they aren't a priority but when you have folks who are angry who are left puttin' out the fires it is a sad state of affairs... And for the folks who become the get along socail workers all is well... These folks have made the supreme consesssion... They have sold their soles to the devil for a pay check and some security and a pension and have willed themselves to just ***do the time***... Many of my friends who fell into this category, including one of my best friends, have now been going thru the motions for some 40 years and roundin' retirement age and, hey, I'm okay with that... But for folks like me who never quit and I suspect that Jnaie falls into this category, mnay burned the slam out... I did... I'm kinda gald that the much longer post I wrote that ended up in the ozone ended up there 'cause it went thru some every personal details of my own burn out and what happens to socail workers when they burn the slam out... It ain't purdy and if it's allright with everyone (except the usual pest) I'd rather not go into it... I will, however, thru into this discussion that this war (which it isn't) is being fought by some angry folks who have individually statked out the manner in which they will continuie the fight while being angry... It ain't purdy... Janie knows of what I speak... So, bottom line, when we talk about poverty in this country, it serves us well to know something about the grunts in the trenches... Like I said, it ain't too purdy no matter how they individually deal with the anger of not having the resources or support to win too many of the battles... And I know that things haven't changed much because many of my oldest and dearest friends are still at it... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 01 Apr 07 - 09:55 PM Well said, Bobert. Well said.... I took a 4 1/2 year break, because I saw I was being burned to a cinder. Then, when I had the opportunity to go to graduate school, I resisted the idea of going for my MSW, because I knew what I was setting myself up for. I explored a number of different options. I went to a career counselor. I consulted with friends and family. But it seems this is the work I am meant to do. At the time I began graduate school, I wasn't sure if I wanted to follow the mental health specialty or hospice. then my sister died and I knew the hospice work would hit too close to home, so I headed for mental health. (I was leaning that direction anyway.) I still intended to protect myself. My 5 year plan was to practice in a public mental health setting until I got my professional license, then start a part time private practice that would gradually turn into a full-time private practice. I'd do a little pro bono work on the side, or work 1o to 15 hours a week in public mental health to feel like I was 'doing my part.' But the need for skilled clinicians in public mental health was too compelling, and my years in public welfare was a real resource to the people I was serving in public mental health. I've been in public mental health a couple of years longer now than I worked in public welfare. within the past year, public mental health has now been privatized in North Carolina. I find I am teetering on the edge of burn-out again. The public agency certainly had its fair share of flaws, but there I at least had sufficient job protection to speak truth to power. That job protection is no longer there in the private sector, and I am choking on my own phlegm, not sure how much I can risk and still keep my job. The thing about being a psychotherapist is the possibility of actually empowering some one is always there, on a one-to-one basis. Seeing a person recognize their own power, seeing them learn to use the tools and resources within them, seeing them learn how to acquire additional tools and make some headway, however small, toward leading more satisfying, effective lives, provides a lot of protection against burn out. With privatization, my clinic is now expected to make a profit. If we don't, the corporation will close us down. Then who will serve the mentally ill population living various degrees of poverty in my community? As a public agency, we were always having to deal with the scarcity of resources, but our presence in the community to provide services was never in question. The tax payers weren't going to provide adequately to meet the mental health needs of this poor, incapacitated population, but they would provide something. There is no longer that very minimal guarantee. Even that guarantee has now been rendered null and void. For people in the helping professions, I think burn out is largely the result of feeling ineffective. Of so often not having the resources to be able to be effective change agents in the lives of the people we serve. We become like those people, those people living in poverty, who can never garner sufficient resources to get the job done, to get out of a perpetual state of poverty. We lose hope. It is what so many social workers entered the profession to do-offer hope. Once the social worker herself loses hope, s/he is bankrupt, and really offers nothing. What makes me the most angry is this. the mantra is 'make the best possible use of the limited resources available.' But resources are not that limited. There are lots of resources. In this country, in this state, in this county, in this town, there are plenty of available resources. It is not that the resources are not there. It is that they are not allocated in a justice and equitable manner. (Equitable doesn't mean equal, it means fair.) This is a a bit of a 'stream of consciousness' post and is probably too personal and also at best pretty egocentric, if not down right narcissistic. It is what it is. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: GUEST,meself Date: 01 Apr 07 - 10:09 PM Nothing to apologize for. Nothing for YOU to apologize for, that is. More than apologies are owed from some other sources. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:05 PM Sarah is 60 years old. She has Bipolar Disorder and cycles rapidly between depression and hypomania--in spite of good medication compliance and very close and careful monitoring by her psychiatrist. She had one hospitalization for a suicde attempt 4 years ago during a period when her living situation would have been difficult for anyone to cope with. Other than that, she has functioned well enough to stay out of the hospital and be primary caregiver for her now 15 y.o. grandson, also with bipolar disorder, as well as to provide some shelter, care and guidance to her daughter (mother of the grandson) who has schizophrenia, drug problems, no insight, and who has consistently refused treatment over the years. Her daughter is basically a street person who wanders into and out of Sarah's life when daugh's situation gets desparate and she needs rescued. Her other two adult children have college degrees, are working professinals and live out of state. They are not estranged from her, but are not very involved with her either. I doubt she has let them know what her circumstances are. Sarah was the victim of physical and sexual abuse at the hands of her stepfather from age 3 until she was age 21. I won't go into the psychological damage and brainwashing that traps an otherwise intelligent teenager and young woman in such circumstances until age 21. Although extremely bright, her bipolar symptoms prevented her from obtaining a college degree. She did go to school to be a beautician and worked at that trade. she has also managed motels, and worked as a convenience store manager. She has been married twice. The first man she married during a hypomanic episode. She was also looking for an escape from her stepfather. He was alcoholic and abusive. The second husband was not abusive, but had affairs, and treated her as unpaid hired help. She has been disabled for a number of years. She worked enough to draw Social Security, a little over $600 per month. The amount she receives is low enough that she qualifies for Medicaid as well as for Medicare, so her health care is pretty well covered. The original disability determination was due to the bipolar disorder. Since then she has developed a number of other medical problems that in and of themselves would preclude her working at any job she is qualified to do. Needless to say, she also has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. She has legal custody of her grandson and has had him since he was an infant. Because his bipolar symptoms are poorly controlled, she receives an SSI check for him--about $300 per month. He also has some organic learning and behavioral problems, probably attributable to his monther's drug use during pregnancy. As he has entered adolescence, and as Sarah has become less physically and mentally able to cope with him, his dysfunctional behaviors have esculated to the point that she agreed to the recommendations of his treatment providers that he go to a short term therapeutic foster care home. He is doing reasonably well there. Sarah is on good terms with the therapeutic foster parents. She has him on weekends. It is clear from those visits that he will most likely revert to old behaviors if he returns to her home. She simply does not have the energy and the internal resources left to set the limits with him that are neccessary. The placement is temporary and is due for review at the end of the school year. The possibility exists, but is not insured, that it can be continued. It is probably in the best interest of both Sarah and her grandson for him to continue to live in a therapeutic setting. (It is also unlikely, given the organic problems, that he will ever be able to function in society completely independently.) Because the placement is temporary, Sarah continues to receive a portion of his SSI check. She is, for the most part a good money manager. She lives in a run down but very neatly maintained mobile home that she rents for $475 per month. Utilities cost about $200 per month. She drives an old car on which she must pay taxes and insurance, and also has the attendent costs of maintenance, repair and gasoline. She did have ok credit for someone in her situation., which she used sparingly. However, she co-signed a high interest furniture loan for her 1st cousin who then defaulted. Trying to rob Peter to pay Paul, she ran upp her own credit card. Then she responded to a sharkey credit offer she received in the mail that she though would help her situation. She ended up converting a 13% credit card rate to a $24% credit card rate. This happened during a hypomanic episode. She was on the list for a housing supplement and had moved to the top of the waiting list. Based on conversations both she and I had previously with the housing authority, she and I were operating on the assumption that the housing supplement, if it came through in time, would enable her to keep her housing if her grandson stayed in foster care and his check was stopped. His placement there is voluntary. This is not a protective services case. He wants to come home. She has been struggling in both her individual therapy with me and with the in-home faily therapist who works with her and the grandson together to resolve her own ambivalence about his best interests and her own feelings that she might be abandoning him if she continues to consent to the foster care placement when school ends, should that be clinically an option. Everyone involved in the case have hoped that a return home will be indicated, but all involved have known it is a borderline situation. Last month, when she rose to the top of the waiting list for a housing supplement, she was called in for a final review. She heats with fuel oil. It costs %500 to fill the tank. It has to be paid all at once, even though it is used all winter. She scraped and saved and was finally able to have the tank filled in November. Because the bill was paid in full in the previous calendar year, housing would not allow it as an expense. If they had prorated the cost over the heating period, the prorated cost would have qualified her to stay at the top of the waiting list. They say the rules won't let them. She is back at the bottom of the waiting list. If her grandson does not return to her home now, she will be unable to support herself. (There is not one single rooming house in my area, Mary, and no candidates for room-mates--she has looked.) This greatly complicates the decision making process regarding her grandson. She is embarrassed and ashamed that she is unable to adequately support herself, that she is unable to work. She is embarrassed that she can not provide for her grandson as she would like. He recently had a birthday, celebrated with her and the foster family. she got him a CD. They got him a nice, new shiny bicycle. She appreciated their generosity to her grandson. And felt terribly humiliated. she felt like a failure. Sarah is poor, but not destitute. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:06 PM Yeahm Janie, the idea of privitization is scarey... When profit becomes the bottom line it is difficult to alot the time and resources to a client you have that ***gut feeling*** about who you think has a chance to actually beat the odds and succeed... Under the public sysytem there was more room for that because not every move you made was scutinized... You know what I mean... As fir burn out, yeah, it is when the internalized anger and the feeling that you can't win collide... That is wxactly what it is and it isn't pleasant... I my case, I developed a good old fashioned full blown case of anxiety disorder... That stuff ain't no fun at all... I'd rather have a broken leg any day of the week... With the acute anxiety disorder I was hospitalized and this is where the rub comes into play... When a social worker is hospitalized with symptoms of burn out guess who they are hospitalized with??? Yup, folks just like their clients!!! But nevermind that... A year of nasty drugs and lots ot exercise and counseling I was back to my old self... But it was harrowing... And though I did change careers I have always attracted and been attracted to folks who used to be my clients... My wife referes to me as a "maga-nut" because of the folks who I enjoy being with and maybe she's on to something... Guess, once a social worker, always a social worker... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:08 PM I should probably begun the last post with the statement that I have changed some details to protect confidentiality, and in this case, anonymity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 02 Apr 07 - 07:21 PM I am copying this link from BS: Public Libraries and the mentally ill, a thread just started by Rapaire. The article talks about a number of things, but key among them is homelessness and the mentally ill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 02 Apr 07 - 07:37 PM Many people don't care because they think it can't or won't ever happen to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:45 PM I'm going to post a couple of links that relate to the official 'poverty threshhold' and 'poverty guidelines' utilized for statistical, research, and most importantly, policy decisions and program eligibility in the United States. I'll have to do it two posts. Warning: this some very dry reading. It is, however, essential reading if you want to have any understanding at all of 1. how our government defines poverty, 2. the benchmarks used in most research studies and statistical analyses indicating the number of households officially living in poverty 3. The financial eligibility requirements that are used to determine who gets public assistance or qualifies for assorted government needs based programs. (Different programs use different per centages of the federal poverty level. ex. income not in excess of 100% of the federal poverty level. income not in excess of 130% of the federal poverty level, etc. Allowable deductions from income to determine eligibility for assorted programs are also often limited to deductions allowed in the formula used to determine poverty levels. My next post will contain the first link. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:52 PM The link to the FAQ page of the Economic Policy Institute gives some information about the current official measures of poverty, and a very condensed idea of what goes into the formula. It is geared toward the lay reader. The EPI would be classified by some as a liberal think tank. that may be, but their data is sound and generally presented in a good, objective way. They tend to let the data speak for itself, without trying to put a 'spin' on it. Pole around the website some for other good information and analysis. http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/issueguides_poverty_povertyfaq |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:16 PM This is a report from a panel commissioned by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) in the early nineties that proposed a major revamp of the methodology used to determine offical poverty threshholds and guidelines. Go to the bottom of the page, and especially check the links to the preface and the executive summary. Warning. This is VERY dry reading. This represents good and thoughtful research methodology, tries to stay out of the politics of the issue, and clearly acknowledges that all decisions regarding social science research includes an element of judgement (value judgement). Their recommendations have never been implemented. I did not research further to see if they were ignored or outright rejected by policy makers. http://books.nap.edu/readingroom/books/poverty/index.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:38 PM Re: the EPI. Well, yes, they are a liberal think tank. I actually found and read the NAS panel report before I found the EPI website. I also posted both links before I went back and read to the bottom of the EPI FAQ and saw where they referenced the Panel's report. I had googled for 'Federal Povery Levels, USA' simply looking to see what the guidelines currently are, and what methodology is used. Got distracted before I found the actual current numbers. I'll go see if I can find them now. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:44 PM Hey Bobert: You have expended a lot of energy avoiding answering a few simple questions regarding some "facts" of yours. Who rents the apartments that are below the $1300 per month average and why do you claim the money for school breakfasts needs to be brought back? You can ask me anything you want and I will try my best to answer but I will never use name calling as a substitute for an answer. It looks like you really care about poor people and have gone beyond the call of duty in trying to help them but have been frustrated. I feel a little pious in even talking about because I am not poor but I feel for poor people too. My Dad woke up one day when he was 16 with no parents and three sisters to take care of with no assets, no money and only distant relatives. He told me stories about hopping aboard a truck full of baskets of apples at a stop light in Richmond during the depression. He filled his shirt with apples and when he jumped off of the truck at the next light, his shirt tail came out and all the apples rolled down the street. And the time when he built our first house in Alexandria out of scrap lumber from construction projects scabbed together. The times when he had to hunt squirrels and rabbits for food. Under adverse conditions he took care of his siblings got out of poverty and I guess he is sort of my role model. I don't like the fact that there are poor people. I wish there were no poor people. If there was a sure cure I would support it But I don't see the cure. I think we need to study the cause and eliminate the causes and best as possible instead of concentrating on patches. As Ben Franklin said, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. So far I have not seen anybody define the causes except for a lot of maudlin sentiment, government bashing, company bashing and rich people bashing. Some companies like credit card companies are predatory and some people fall prey to them. I think they should be regulated by the government. Pay day loans, video poker and all that too. I think the key to helping people out of the poverty cycle is education. People that are really determined, get an education even under adverse conditions. I do not claim to know everything and I make mistakes so If I am wrong, please correct me but I don't see how posting incorrect facts like "Bring back the funding for breakfast programs" when it was never taken away or poor people can't afford the average $1300 apartment serves any purpose except as a red herring or a straw man to be kicked around and to blame things on. Could it be that Bobert was just plain wrong and refuses to admit it? I think that these so called "civil rights leaders" pander to and feed off of the poor by sympathizing with them, telling them they are victims and that people are plotting against them. They prey on the victim mentality. Others try to send the message that they can succeed if they want to and if they try. The government can't legislate that and rich people can't buy that for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:59 PM 2007 HHS Poverty Guidelines Persons in Family or Household 48 Contiguous States and D.C. Alaska Hawaii 1 $10,210 $12,770 $11,750 2 13,690 17,120 15,750 3 17,170 21,470 19,750 4 20,650 25,820 23,750 5 24,130 30,170 27,750 6 27,610 34,520 31,750 7 31,090 38,870 35,750 8 34,570 43,220 39,750 For each additional person, add 3,480 4,350 From the following officail website. http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/07poverty.shtml |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:38 AM Dickey, Pay attention. There is a wealth of information on this thread, on the web, in public libraries, within the halls of universities, and in government funded research and reports that identify the many, complex, and overdetermined reasons that people are poor. I agree that education is one value resource (go back and read dianavan's and mg's posts) and public dollars that promote and support education and job skills training are public dollars well spent. Education should also include educating mainstream America about how our personal and societal values, institutions and choices contribute to poverty. Even so, education is only one piece of a very large picture. There is no one key. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:29 AM "I think that these so called "civil rights leaders" pander to and feed off of the poor by sympathizing with them, telling them they are victims and that people are plotting against them. They prey on the victim mentality. Others try to send the message that they can succeed if they want to and if they try. The government can't legislate that and rich people can't buy that for them." Please define 'so-called.' Please define 'others' Please go talk to a sample of African-Americans, making sure your sample is mulitgenerational. While we are a long way from having righted the wrongs of institutional racism in this country, look at the increase in percentages of African Americans in the middle class. Look at the increased percentages of African Americans who go to college. Look at the increase in the percentages of African Americans in white collar and skilled jobs. Look at those percentages in terms of percentages of the African-American population. Look at those percentages in terms of increase in total percentage of the general population. Compare the numbers pre-civil rights movement to post civil rights movement. Then come back and tell us that the preponderent effect of the civil rights movement, and of the civil rights leaders, was to foster victimhood and dependency. The leaders of the civil rights movement helped people stand up and NAME their condition. It did not create their condition. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: dianavan Date: 03 Apr 07 - 01:33 PM dickey - Access to education is very important but its not the answer for everyone. How can a single mom go to college if she can't afford day care? How can people learn if they are hungry or sick? How can people look for work when they have nowhere to sleep? You talked about your father's experience in the depression. That was a national experience. In other words, most everyone was in the same boat. Its not like today when the gap between haves and have nots is ever widening. Politicians must look at a re-distribution of the wealth to fund social programs that will benefit everyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Scoville Date: 03 Apr 07 - 02:43 PM I'm sorry, but the poverty guidelines are a joke. You can't actually support yourself on those. Twelve people sharing a house and absolute bare-minimum food and clothing, maybe, but it's life on the edge at best. That seems to be assuming you and your dependents never get sick or injured, nothing you own ever breaks or wears out, you can live somewhere where everything is within walking distance, your portion of the rent doesn't go up, and you are able to work until the day you drop dead so you won't need to plan for retirement or old-age care. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:46 PM Dickey, Actually, compared to the nergy you have used up stalking an' attackin' me, I've used up little to no energy in avoding answering your question... Your question is so simplistic that I can't understand why you think it's the "holy grail" of this discussion... You have elivated your rather benign nit-pick into some kinda ah-hah-Bobert-gotcha-monster when it is is less than a cockroach... I just don't get your question... I point out that poor folks are being displaced becuase of high rents in DC and if they can saty in the city are having to live in very dangerous neigborhoods and you go balistic??? I just don't get yer question, I guess... What is the big deal here, Dickey??? I mean, gol danged... It ain't rocket science... You want to ba single mom working fir 8 bucks and hour with a couple kids and no husband in DC... Do the math... This woman and the millions just like her accross the US are seeing the same situation with urban center being revitalized and rents pricing them into the nastiest neigborhoods that haven't gone revitalization... This isn't my imagination... It is a national trend... So yeah, you can get a friggin' $475 a month apartment 3 miles north of Rock Creeek apartment... Do you want to raise yer kids there??? Now back to yer dad... Hey, my dad went thru the same crap... His mother died when he was 11 and he was sent off to work at age 11 on a farm but he made it okay...Never finished high school but ended up working as a district manager for Ford Motor Co... But that was then and this is now... Lots of folks came thru the depression and did just fine because after WW II there was work for anyone who wanted it and the pay was decent by late 40's/eraly 50's standards... That is as long as you were white... But beyond that, Scoville is entirely correct... The guidelines are a joke... If we used realistic guidlines we'd probably double the number of folks who are living in poverty... And guess what...Wiht the exception of the upper 1 ot 2% everyone is one catastropic illness away from joing those ranks... There isn't even a friggin law on the books that says that a health insurance carrier can't drop you if you get sick... So, Fickey, lets say that tomorrow morning, you wake up and go for you annual checkup and the doc finds a spot in the exray and it's cancer... And so yer health insureer drops you 'casue, ahhhh, for no other reason but "they can" legally... And the treeatment is going to be 'round $500,000, which it can very easially, you might be looking fir one of them $475 apartments in some ghettoe yerself... Farfetched??? Well, yeah... But this can happen to you... Do, yeah, this is why I rail against the governemnt... Rather than "govern" a civil society they are stealing our national accumulated wealth and funneling it to the upper 1 to 2%... This is not the way enlightened societies behave... Period!!! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:11 PM Now I'd like to make a comment about "education"... Yes, while education seems to be that threshold that folks who don't really understanf the cycle of poverty, it is the "holy grail" but... ...this is for folks who don't understand what it is laike to grown up in poverty these days... And it is somewhat part of the4 problem in breaking the cycle of poverty but... ... it isn't the folks who are stuck in the hampster wheel of povertyy but the folks who have some "power" to exert their values on the folks who spend the money... Yeah, the folks who nedd some educatin' are the folks here, like Dickey, but not only Dickey but the Dickies of the world who would rather preach to poor peoploe how to get outta of poverty which is like speaking a forieng language or smugly balaming folks for bad choices... Either way, it won't break the cycle... No, the American people in general need to be educated, top to bottom... And if that were to occur then we could get the War on Poverty back on track... There isn't a silver bullet herer but many pieces of buckshot that need to be fired in this war... And yeah, it's gonna take breakfast programs... It's gonna take more $$$ for child care subsidies... It's gonna take more Section 8 housing... Bottom line, inspite of the right wing rhetoric that you can't fix problesm with money, it's goning to take money... Heck, we give Billions and billions to rich fat cats wioth the hope that it will trickle down... It's time to level the playing field and invest those billions in our poor and let it trickle ****up****.... This is some basic bottom line stuff here... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:51 PM I'm about to post another series of links, this time regarding distribution of wealth and income in the USA. Some pretty interesting reading on some of these sites, in addition to the graphs. Again, I only know how to do it one post at a time. Hhttp://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.htmlere is the first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:58 PM Here's number 2 http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/american_income_taxation.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:02 PM Fixing first link. (I hope) http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:08 PM Straight from Uncle Sam http://www.sipp.census.gov/sipp/workpapr/wp233.pdf |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:09 PM For your reading pleasure-more links to census bureau data. http://www.sipp.census.gov/sipp/pubsmain.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:13 PM Don't just look at the stats. Read (or at least skim) the explanations and analyses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Peace Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:23 PM The guy who needs to read those links won't. His mind's made up and that's that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 03 Apr 07 - 11:00 PM I am not a believer in leveling. It is fine with me, and probably in the nature of things, that some have more and some have less. But if you are looking for the most significant reason there are significant levels poverty in a nation with our total wealth, these numbers tell the story. Grossly inequitable distribution of wealth. Who determines how resources are distributed? Those with the power to do so. Who has power? People with money. Lots of money. How many people have lots and lots of money? Not very many. The richest of the rich, and the richer of the rich could still be rich. The merely rich could still be very well-to-do. The upper middle class could still be middle class. The vast majority of us could still muddle along from payday to payday and be ok barring any catastrophic illness. And we could guarantee that even the worst off among us were guaranteed a basic but adequate standard of living. That basic needs for food, clothing, shelter and medical care were sufficiently met. In this country, in these United States of America, in this, the richest country in the history of the world, the only reason so many are so poor is because that is the only way the richest can stay that rich. That, my friends, is social injustice. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 03 Apr 07 - 11:18 PM Bobert: I never said it would not take money to "fix" poverty but the money should be spent in the right places. Education is one factor. Parental neglect is another. And yes, people should be told when they make bad choices. Like this: Here is a good choice and here is a bad choice. Joe made a bad choice and he suffers. If you make a bad choice you will suffer like Joe. It is not rocket science. But you still have not explained who rents the apartments that cost below average or why you say the money for breakfast programs should be brought back. Spending on school breakfast programs has gone up not gone away so please explain your rhetoric. I just remembered that my dad told me he had a car that was so worn out that the spark plug holes were stripped. He had to wrap a strip of a rag around the threads and screw in the spark plugs real gently to get them to stay. He had to featherfoot the gas pedal or the plugs would pop out and put dents in the hood. It was a flat head. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 03 Apr 07 - 11:20 PM Janie: I like your link. Here is what I found Stop Blaming the Media! by G. William Domhoff October 2005 "Like everyone else, progressives have a strong tendency to blame the media for their failures. As horrible as the media can be, they are not the problem. Blaming the media becomes an excuse for not considering the possibility that much of the leftist program is unappealing to most people -- third parties, calls for a planned non-market economy, the use of violent tactics by some groups, and a tendency to rely on charismatic leaders. None of these has any appeal to average Americans, and it is not the media that created this negative reaction. When activists complain about the nature of media coverage, they are actually demanding that the media abandon an independent journalistic stance and champion their cause by reporting what they want reported. This is in effect what people from the left and right constantly do: attack the media with the hope that they will bend in their direction, then blame the media if their program fails. Today the main culprit is said to be television, with its misleading or distracting images, and non-stop advertising, but the complaint goes back to the days when there were only newspapers. It leads to endless dissection of every media story to find any mistakes and distortions, but progressives rarely consider the possibility that the media distortions are not the reason why they often lose. Blaming the media reinforces tendencies toward conspiratorial thinking. It crowds out creative thinking about how to make use of the media as part of strategic nonviolent campaigns....." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:02 AM Here's what I found at http://www.sipp.census.gov/sipp/workpapr/wp233.pdf page 51 It tells me that the majority of families make between $25,000 and &49,999 and the majority of thise hava head of household between 35 and 44years old. TABLE B-1 SURVEY OF INCOME AND PROGRAM PARTICIPATION, WAVE 7 SAMPLE SIZE: UNWEIGHTED COUNTS OF FAMILIES, BY AGE OF HEAD AND FAMILY TOTAL INCOME, 1995 Family Total Income ..........Less than..$10,000-.$25,000-.$50,000-.$75,000-.$100,000..All Income ...........$10,000.....24,999..49,999....74,999...99,999 ..or More...Classes Age of Head 25-34.......576........1,318...1,389......515.....164........50......4,012 35-44.......409..........982...1,609......926.....345........182.....4,453 45-54.......271..........663...1,131......741.....388........277.....3,471 55-64.......318..........572.....798......378.....179........120.....2,365 65-74.......388..........877.....715......206......68.........36.....2,290 75 and Older.......536..........866.....371.......77......20..........9.....1,879 All Ages*.2,498........5,278...6,013....2,843...1,164........674....18,470 * Age 25 or older. Source: Capital Research Associates analysis of Survey of Income and Program Participation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Wordsmith Date: 04 Apr 07 - 04:00 AM I've chosen to ignore any comments by a certain someone...HE WHO SHOULD NOT BE NAMED...which, btw, makes reading this thread somewhat of a challenge. It's been a while since I've been here. First, I forgot to give kudos to Bobert a while back for his case study. It was truly moving. And, yes, you're right about beer not being able to be purchased with food stamps...I guess I didn't make that clear. What I meant to say is that I've seen people rag on those who buy beer and, say, cigarettes with their welfare money as well as buying chips with food stamps. Second, thanks to both Bobert and Janie (your case study was also poignant) for lending us their expertise and for their patience with us. It is truly a difficult subject, but I think your examples make it easier to understand, for some, at least. dianavan was right about it being somewhat better to be poor in a rural rather than urban setting, however, it's been my experience that in the rural communities I've lived in, there's more people who are willing to stick their faces into your business, and who have no qualms about making you feel the size of a peanut, but less worthy. Manners don't seem to exist. People say out loud whatever their brains are misfiring over when they're in public, or in private for that matter. The gossip is outrageous. It's far worse than that game of Telephone we used to play. It adds depression to the mix and skims what little self-worth you had down to the bone. Janie's case study pointed out exactly what happens in the system. Your furnace goes out in the middle of winter, for example. You call the company that services it and provides you your fuel. They send a guy out to examine it, incurring a service charge. He says he can't get it to run, goes out to check your fuel meter and discovers you're out of fuel. Ironically, you have an appointment to see social services for an emergency fuel allotment check you qualify for that very day. Service guy says, I'll talk to my boss and get him to deliver 50 gallons of kerosene before you have to leave for your appointment, even though you've made it clear that you're behind in your payments to the heating co. because you've been waiting on the appointment with social services. The fuel is delivered, the guy can now check the furnace and finds, much to your relief, that the problem was the lack of fuel. Off you go to your appointment. Instead of getting the "nice" social worker you've had in the past, luck of the draw gets you one of the angry "thinks it's his/her money being doled out" ones, who proceeds to run you through a mini-version of the book, "Catch-22." (Mind you it's been a while, but) the dialog goes like this: SW: How much fuel do you have in your furnace? (Remember, they have your supplier on record, so there's no point in fudging.) C(lient): 50 gals. SW: 50 gals? Well, then, you don't need emergency fuel funds. C: But, I do. My furnace went out in the middle of the night, and when the fuel co. finally called back from the message I left on their machine, they sent out a service man. SW: Well, you're not supposed to contact your supplier to fix a furnace. We have a contract with a business here in town (45 mins. away from your house by car.) C: I didn't know. SW: Well, I'm not responsible for what you don't know. C: Sorry, I was just trying to explain. So, what was I supposed to do? SW: You were supposed to call us and tell us your furnace was down, and then we'd send a repairman from that co. to check it out. C: I didn't know. Besides, as it turns out, I was out of fuel. SW: How'd you know that? The dialog went on in this circular reasoning for over an hour...almost reducing the client to tears, but not quite breaking her. I think that po'd the SW even more than the fact that the client really wasn't trying to scam her, and the SW knew it. BTW, the client never got the emergency funds, but instead had to make due with the annual allotment to which she had already qualified, because, of course, since the furnace now had 50 gals. in it, it wasn't empty, was it! This is a true life story, and a real participant was hurt in the process, but she's since recuperated...yet dreads having to visit Social Services ever again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:23 AM Good example of public policy in action, Wordsmith. The most disturbing thing to me about what happened with the woman whose story you tell is this: Had it been a 'nice' social worker, the outcome would have been the same. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:48 AM Oops! Got it wrong. The real culprit is she made two bad choices. First, she had the temerity to call some one to see what was wrong with the furnace. She compounded it with another bad choice when she let the guy put 50 gal. of fuel oil in the tank. I really admire the effectiveness of the social worker with whom she dealt, the one who made it clear the problem was her bad choices. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:51 AM A few days ago I was walking with a friend. We were talking and I wasn't paying attention. I started to step out into the street when she grabbed my arm and jerked me back. I had nearly stepped out in front of a car. Maybe she should have let me do it so I could learn from my mistake? Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Dickey Date: 04 Apr 07 - 12:12 PM I lived in a mobile home once when I did not have the money to buy a house. It had a kerosene pot burner. When it quit heating the first thing I would do is check the fuel to see if it was empty. If it was empty I could always get go to a local place an get a 5 gal can filled to get me by for a few days. To light it I had to let some oil into the pot and drop in a piece of burning paper. Once it had burned a short while, gone out and there was a fog of vaporized fuel in the bottom. When I dropped in the burning paper to relight it, the fuel "blew up" like gasoline vapor and singed my face, removing my eyebrows and eyelashes. I stood there stunned for a few seconds and then I heard the clang of the vent cap landing in the street. I never made that bad choice again and if someone had warned be thay my face was in danger, I would not have made the bad choice to begin with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Charmion Date: 04 Apr 07 - 05:27 PM Mr. Dickey, has it occurred to you that the woman in Wordsmith's example may have had absolutely no idea how to tell what the problem was with her furnace? And even if she had, how can you be so sure that, like you, she was strong enough to carry a five-gallon can of kerosene from the nearest service station -- possibly miles away? I'm a well-fed middle-aged woman who works out frequently, and I know darned well what a 20-litre jerrycan of gasoline weighs -- too much for me to carry more than a block without injuring myself! Let's not get into the dangers of amateur furnace-starting: the woman in Wordsmith's example was almost certainly brought up from babyhood not to do dangerous things, but to call someone qualified to do it who could be trusted not to burn her house down! Which she duly did, and for which she was severely punished. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:29 PM Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie - PM Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:44 AM ...Are some people lazy and/or ignorant and make bad choices that contribute to their own position of poverty? You betcha. But do each of us who do not live in poverty make choices about what we do, how we vote, what we spend, what we think we must have, and what we place the most priority on that results in other people being pushed into, or held into conditions of poverty? Yes. Yes. A thousand times yes. And unless or until a majority of the individuals in society assume personal responsibility for the effects on others of the choices we make, a huge number of human beings around the globe are doomed to suffer needlessly.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:37 PM Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Janie - PM Date: 20 Mar 07 - 11:44 PM Values. I'm gonna ramble a bit and not try to tie things together real tightly here. There are some who would say that many people who live in poverty make choices that put them there and/or keep them there. I agree. There are some who say that many people who don't live in poverty make choices that cause or contribute to creating and maintaining poverty. I agree. In all societies, beyond a certain age, people are expected to take responsibility for the choices they make. (Responsibility is not synonymous with blame.) I think this is reasonable, and when people can see and do this, my observation is that it is empowering. If I don't understand that I have responsibility, how can I ever believe that I have the power to effect change from within or from without? In all my years of practice have I observed lots of people making bad or ineffective choices? Oh yes indeed! In all my years of practice have I seen people make impulsive and needlessly uninformed choices? You betcha! In all my years of practice have I ever encountered one single individual whose goal was to make bad choices? Never. Nada. Not once. With respect to personal well-being, my observations and experience has been that individuals always make the best choice they know how to make at any particular time given the knowledge and the resources (internal and external) available to them at the time. Not once in 35 years of practice have I observed anyone approach a choice from the standpoint of "I want to make the worst possible decision that I can right now," even when they may in fact be making that worst possible decision.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA From: Bobert Date: 04 Apr 07 - 06:38 PM And once again we are back to folks who make poor decisions... Yes, lots of poor people ***do*** make poor (bad) decisions but preaching to them isn't going to change much... This is what "client centered" social work is all about... Yeah, someone from a middle class back ground with a MSW certainly is more apt to make good decisions in a pinch but poor people don't have those backgrounds and experiences that provide them with the larger menu of choices that middle class people have... Also, poor people tend to move more becuase of various financial factors and when it comes to mechanical systems from one pl;ace to another it can get comlpicated... Lastly, since Dickey seems to wonder who rents what in the DC area as if when I tell him he'll leap down upon me from a tree I'll tell him... The folks who can... Pure and simple... I still don't get his point, if he even has one... I'll be back later with just one more personal story to tell about life as a social worker... Bobert |
