The Fringe - second class citizens??

Subject: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 09:22 PM

I am totally fed up with Folk Festivals treating the 'fringe' element as second class citizens. Why is this so?

A case in hand is the new 'Shepley Spring Festival',West Yorkshire.
This is a green field site which has an adjoining campsite but it is only available for full weekend ticket holders. This means that the glorious fringe festival goers would have to camp at the next available campsite many many miles away even though their web site encourages the fringe element to sing/play in the local pubs.

This is just one example of many where folk festival organisers, in their infinate wisdom, totally snub the fringe in favour of the more commercially lucrative weekend/season ticket holders.
This really gets my goat.
The fringe not only brings revenue to the local community but adds so much in the way of colour,entertainment,atmosphere and fun to the social and business environment during the duration of any festival.

Too many festival organisers choost to ignore this at their peril and then wonder why their green field site festival struggles to be welcomed and accepted by the the local community the following year,when they only remember the inconvenience of lots of extra traffic,noise and litter.

It's the fringe that makes all the difference and which warms the local community to any festival on its doorstep.

They may not want to attend lots of concerts etc and may not wish to fork out for a full weekend/season ticket but they really do add so much to the overall well-being of a festival and its future long-term security.

I do believe that festivals that are inclusive and fully welcome and engage the fringe within the whole local community will always win out on festivals that lock people in to maximum income generation and are divorced from the neigbouring community.
How else does the local community benefit from this?

Come on festival organisers, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee!!

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 09:49 PM

If every body only went to the Fringe , there wouldnt BE a Festival - Or a campp site for you to free load on Soldier Boy - And I RUN fringe at Sidmouth , and am happy to sort out my own accomodation , Or use the ticket to get on the camp site 1

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 02:52 AM

You have missed the point completely Leadfingers.
Please read my opening thread again, I am not talking about fringe only festivals I am talking about how much the fringe adds to a festival and how they are interdependant upon one another.
And your remark about 'freeloading' wonderfully sums up what I have already said about the negative and pompous attitude of organisers towards the fringe element. So stereo-typical. Well done sir!!

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:22 AM

Soldier boy, I think it has a lot more to do with basic security and capacities than it has snobbery. The campsite in question may have a limited capacity, and so the organisers have been compelled to take some sort of a decision on how it is used. It makes sense that if people are going to pay 50 or 60 quid to get into your festival, you have to provide decent facilities for them as a priority - otherwise they won't come back next year, you won't sell tickets and your festival would go bust. Perhaps if the campsite could accomodate sufficient numbers, they'd open it up to people who haven't bought a festival ticket. But there is also this quite serious issue of security. There were festivals last summer which reported some very unpleasant incidents of tent robbing. If the people on your campsite are all festival ticket holders, it's no guarantee that they're legitemate punters, but at least you're excercising some control over who is utilising your facilities and hopefully discouraging some of the more opportunist thieves out there.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:58 AM

Would you be kind enough to tell me how people who do not contribute financially to a festival add so much to the overall well-being of a festival and its future long-term security?

I have heard people in a community say "those festival people are great - its the hangers on that spoil it?" So much for the fringe.

Most organisers do a lot for the locality and in particular the local School children.

If you bothered to read the programme for the Shepley Spring Festival for example you will notice that a number of the artists are booked to work with local schoolchildren, and that those same school children will be giving what is called a "Showcase Concert" on the Saturday. No doubt their parents will be along to watch them.

Now that's what I call working with the local community. Not sat singing in a local pub with all your mates or walking from pub to pub being colourful.

If a green field festival generates litter then by definition it is cleared up within that green field. If a green field festival generates traffic - by definition it stays on site except at the beginning and end of the festival.

All greenfield festivals organise toilet cleaning and litter picking to ensure that everything is left spick and span. Do you think Warwick Festival would be allowed to use the grounds of a every expensive private school if they left the place looking like a tip? What do those who sit in a pub being colourful with their mates contribute to litter picking and toilet cleaning?

For those not aware Soldier Boy is a regular supportive poster about a festival which is held nearby to Shepley and the week before.

I wish that festival all the luck in the world and I hope it is a successful as it deserves to be.

What a shame Soldier Boy can't be as tolerant to festivals nearby.

I declare an interest. I shall have a stall at Shepley Festival.

Any interests to declare Soldier Boy?

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: fiddler
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:00 AM

How many times have I heard this discussion which usually degenerates in to an argument!

By it's nature Fringe is not part of the festival so by what right do Fringe attendees claim admittance to a camp site which was built temporarily (a very expensive infrastructure) and has 24 hour security usually.

Sites these days are checked by the fire brigade and sometimes subject to other terms and conditions.

I think a Fringe element at any festival is often the sign of a very healthy festival. On a personal level I often spend most of my time at fringe events although as I usually work for my ticket I can actually attend the official festival.

Thats my two penneth - you pays for your ticket and gets the privilidges it brings or you doesn't and live around the fetival and all it's associated activities! BUt contributing immensley to the atmosphere of the festival as a whole but one without which the festival would still survive.

Andy

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:37 AM

Perfectly happy to pay for camping - I don't want that free - but I don't want to have to pay for concerts I don't want to go to in order to camp. Don't mind paying a modest entry fee to sessions and sinagrounds. I don't ask the bums on seats, the puddings with ears, to subsidise me, but I don't see why I should subsidise them. If I wnat to hear a pro play, then I'll pay for his concert. If I don't then I won't. Sorry, Leadfingers, and all that, but why should I subsidise the fee you charge the organiser?

What do I contribute? Well, I may be over-egging my pudding, but I think I'm welcome in most sinagrounds. A well-known professional singer was very complimentary last Tenterden about what my mandolin added to the accompaniment in a song session, and I had something similar said by a good amateur at Sweeps last year too - so we "free-loaders" do help to create the often thrilling experience that a good sing or session can create. And why do pubs participate in the fringe? To sell beer. Do we drink (and pay for) beer? I think we can say so. Do we drink beer in the beer tents that pay the festivals for the right to supply beer there. Oh, yes, I think we do. Do we buy food? That would be a yes, too. Do we put our quids in the collecting tins at Broadstairs and Tenterden? Er - yes.

We are the gene pool from which the paid professionals come. Don't kill the goose. And don't mix metaphors either, but that's another story.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Carol
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 05:45 AM

Agreed Richard and yes, I'm perfectly happy to pay for camping and for enntry to singarounds etc. - why can't festival organisers sell a 'fringe' ticket?
There are some 'fringe' festivals DIY type, no artists etc. and I've got to admit that I'm going to more of these lately.
Recently I enquired about going to a festival with my husband as the driver of our campervan -he doesn't go into anything these days but takes me. In fact he's my carer as I'm disabled and liable to fall without any booze!! Anyhow the reply was that we would have to buy 2 season tickets plus camping costing £72 for the weekend, yet other festivals offer concessions for OAPs and disabled etc. and wouldn't expect my partner to buy a ticket which he won't be using.   although with concessions we have bought 2 tickets when one hasn't been used at all.
another thing festival organisers do is programme a SAR on the Friday night and then ignore the singers etc. until the Suday survivors session!
I think you need to research your festivals as some are a lot more 'fringe friendly' than others.
Good Luck

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: nutty
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:33 AM

Is this a genuine beef or is it just another excuse Soldier Boy is using to 'knock' the new SHEPLEY FESTIVAL?

AM I BEING CYNICAL? Perhaps but would it not have been better to let the organisers to get one festival under their belt before questioning their organisation.

If you want to do the festival on the cheap there are plenty of opportunities to Steward or offer your services in any other capacity (Run singarounds, workshops etc.) or even go (as I know Soldierboy often does) as a member of a dance team.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:47 AM

Richard - if you want to go to a festival let's say Shepley, since that was the one originally quoted then provided there is space - you are free to book tickets at most of the concerts.

People are free to pay for camping anywhere you like except on the festival site. So far I do not see the problem.

What the complaint is that there isn't an adjoining camp site which will allow people to come to the town where the festival is, chuck a quid (or the cost of half a pint) into a bucket and not have to walk or drive.

There are loads of festivals that do have such things - Miskin being a well-known one. There are lots of mudgathers where catters meet together, sing together and do all the things they want to do without having to worry about driving home.

They arrange their own camping and so on. I was at one last Sunday in Spalding. Though it was a bit early for camping.

As I have pointed out to Soldier Boy, Shepley Festival does have a fringe. It is a small place but two pubs will be welcoming to singers and musicians. And there are loads of top-class dance sides appearing in the streets. Who no doubt will be singing in the pubs too.

It has a different sort of fringe involving the local community. This includes schoolchildren working with festival artists culminating in a concert at the festival; it has a concert with a brass band and a male voice choir (very popular in those parts) along with a community choir all performing together in the local parish church one evening.

So all in fact it doesn't have is cheap camping so Soldier Boy can come and sing with his mates and not have to drive.

I have to tell Soldier Boy that is normal at a lot of festivals. And I see no evidence of them failing. In fact just the opposite.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:00 AM

If you have to catch the bus in (lets say at Tenterden 2 years ago) hover all day, and get the bus back, it is a major impediment. You can't have the instruments of choice to hand (I vary if I can between 12 string, 6 string, mandolin and the muhc maligned Irish drum). Most importantly you spend all day worrying about missing the last bus back and having to walk 4 miles pished at midnight carrying a heavy load.

The answer is simple - enough central camping to accommodate the puddings with ears AND take the fringers who will pay for their camping. Anything less is what competition lawyers call "line forcing".

Now what Tenterden needs is a tractor on standby to tow people out of the swamp in the central camping, but other than that it is damned good as a local field. Local field with a tap would be better still, but I'm not picky.... Some might like loos and showers too.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:07 AM

Folkiedave

'Richard - if you want to go to a festival let's say Shepley, since that was the one originally quoted then provided there is space - you are free to book tickets at most of the concerts. '

Folkiedave - didn't you read what Richard said - He doesn't want to attend concerts!!

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:10 AM

Anything less is what competition lawyers call "line forcing".

Whilst I am generally happy to bow to your legal knowledge Richard, that I feel is not an analogy.

There is a folk festival. If you want to camp at the festival which the organisers have organised including the camping - you buy a season ticket and that allows camping. If that is a permanent camp site and the owner only chooses to let season ticket holders at the festival into it, that is their privilege.

If the organisers choose to open up camping to anyone who pays the fee that is also their privilege.

If you want to camp elsewhere and not buy a season ticket you are perfectly free to do so.

Like I said I don't see the problem. No-one is being forced to do anything.......

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:30 AM

You are quite right, Mr. Happy I didn't realise that.

Don't mind paying a modest entry fee to sessions and sinagrounds

What a good idea Richard, let organisers charge for sessions. Even better let them charge the ones who get to sing more than anyone else who are just there to listen....

That'll go well on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:21 AM

Why can't the festival simply charge for the campsite separately, so you could have "official" festivalgoers staying offsite or "fringe" festivalgoers using the paid site?

A separate fenced-in campsite (with an open free one by the river) has worked at Newcastleton for many years. There's no such thing as a weekend festival ticket at Newcastleton but I don't see why that should make any difference.

I usually do go some concerts at a festival, but never want to go to them all; I've never been to a festival with an all-in ticket and don't intend to.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:28 AM

maybe, as I suggested earlier, it's purely about the capacity of the campsite, and the festival organisers wanting to make sure that the people who are paying for the festival can get onto it...

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:32 AM

Like Leadfingers I help run a Fringe thing at 'The Bedford' at Sidmouth. Now I do know that many who go there don't want a season ticket. What they do is what Richard is suggesting which is go and see the concerts they want to, either pay for accommodation or go to one of the many campsites, and since 2005 (the festival that wasn't supposed to happen) the official campsite which charges a fee for the week. They, along with myself and many of the people who come in to listen to the session, put money in the collecting box every day to help ensure the festival happens for everybody. I like to go along to concerts where there are people I want to see, and I don't mind forgoing 2 or 3 pints a day when I don't, that money to go into the festival collecting tins. The fringe is important to a festival, and the festival is important to the fringe.
John Barden

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: nutty
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:41 AM

This really is a pointless discussion without having all the facts to hand.

LIKE .....

HOW MUCH LAND IS AVAILABLE FOR CAMPERS?

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO HIRE THE LAND?

HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD WANT TO BUY FESTIVAL TICKETS (INCLUDING CAMPING)

IF THE ORGANISERS SELL CAMPING SPACE TO THE 'FRINGE' WILL THERE BE ENOUGH ROOM AVAILABLE FOR THE ABOVE CAMPERS.

WHAT WILL BE THE COST OF PROVIDING OTHER FACILITIES? (SHOWERS, TOILETS, RUBBISH REMOVAL ETC)

Organisers have to balance the books yet it appears that whatever they do some people are never satisfied.

If you have a problem with a particular festival then go elsewhere.
If you want to go to a particular festival then pay up or travel daily by car and don't drink.

Don't moan that you (individually) are not being catered for. Festival organisers do not organise for the individual but for the majority.

AS a last resort, you can always organise your own festival.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:44 AM

Well said, nutty

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:00 AM

AS a last resort, you can always organise your own festival.

What? Crazy idea. Who suggested that? Madness sheer bloody madness.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Grab
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:07 AM

...in favour of the more commercially lucrative weekend/season ticket holders.

The answer's in the question. It costs money to put on a folk festival, not just paying for the performers, but everything else as well. Publicity, police, maybe road closures, etc. And yes, camping.

If there's unlimited space for camping, then sure, there's no real reason for there not to be a reasonable fee for just camping, to cover the cost of hiring the land, hiring portaloos, security and everything else. But if there's limited space, they CANNOT let "fringe" people camp there when that would be reducing the number of full-price people attending the festival. (And let's face it, for most people camping, if they can't camp then they can't afford the festival - hotels are often not an option.) Without all those full-price tickets sold, there wouldn't BE a festival.

The festival CAN survive without a fringe of people who've not paid for tickets. Most of the "puddings with ears" will be attending singarounds, workshops, pub sessions and so on. Plenty of beer and food will be sold to them.

But can the fringe survive without the festival - without the "puddings with ears" who intersperse concerts with singarounds and sessions, or who may even (shock horror!) prefer listening to other people performing, people who are much better than themselves and than 99% of the fringe? I'd say no.

Graham.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:12 AM

Line forcing is the refusal to supply goods or services that the supplier does in fact supply (camping), unless the recipient also pays for other goods and services that are not wanted (concert season ticket).

If the campsite cannot service all demands on it that is another potential problem - but we don't know that that is the case yet. What we do know is that (in some cases) there is camping, and you can't have it unless you pay for a concert season that you don't want.

In Sidders, there isn't really any nearby (= easy walking with two instruments) camping, I gather.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:24 AM

HOW MUCH LAND IS AVAILABLE FOR CAMPERS?

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO HIRE THE LAND?

HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD WANT TO BUY FESTIVAL TICKETS (INCLUDING CAMPING)

IF THE ORGANISERS SELL CAMPING SPACE TO THE 'FRINGE' WILL THERE BE ENOUGH ROOM AVAILABLE FOR THE ABOVE CAMPERS.

WHAT WILL BE THE COST OF PROVIDING OTHER FACILITIES? (SHOWERS, TOILETS, RUBBISH REMOVAL ETC)

At a weekend festival like those you have been talking about then I agree it's a matter of 'take the season ticket' and pay for the camping - I have been going to Ely for quite a few years now and always do that, the same goes for Fareham & Gosport Easter festival and for Fylde folk festival. I was just mentioning Sidmouth - a week long festival where the circunstances are somewhat different - but in the days of Mrs. Casey it was season ticket and pay for the camping, and no camping without season ticket. That's one of the reasons I always camped at Kings Down Tail, or Salcombe Regis as I didn't want a season ticket. I still put my share into the collection tins and went to see the artists I wanted to see - but stayed for a week and not just for a weekend so probably paid as much as those who came in for a day ticket or two.
John Barden

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:28 AM

Sorry, I meant toi say 'probaly paid as much into the festival as those that came in for a day ticket or two.
The other thing I meant to mention is that the Camping ticket should charge enough to pay for all the things you mentioned like facilities.
John Barden

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:29 AM

Richard,

the supplier (festival organisers in this case) is not providing all services to the general public, however (camping in this case); if I happen to be passing through the town on my holidays, I could not reasonably expect them to offer their camping facilities to me. It is an ancillary facility offered to its main customers (season ticket holders), and indeed they are not even obliged to offer such ancillary facilities at all, even to them (except that this would impact the attractiveness of the festival weekend ticket, but that is simply a commercial consideration and not an obligation on the part of the organisers).

So, as the camping service is not offered to the general public, it cannot be line forcing.

I see it as little different to a restaurant or pub or hotel offering car parking "for the use of patrons only". It is an ancillary service, and not open to all who might want to park simply to go to the shops...

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:30 AM

Richard - the bus at Sidders runs frequently and early until very late and it is so much easier than Broadstairs. From the official campsite to the Esplenade and the reverse. There are also 2 or 3 campsites that are further afield but once again have bus services from the campsite to Sidmouth. I really is very well served in this respect.
John Barden

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:33 AM

That's a good point George. I do see the problem for weekend festivals and am happy to pay up. As has been said before, if I don't like the lineup, I don't go.
John Barden

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:47 AM

'AS a last resort, you can always organise your own festival.

What? Crazy idea. Who suggested that? Madness sheer bloody madness.

........not really, most DIY do's are some of the most enjoyable.

For example, see here for Mr Happy & fiends Easter Minifolkdo!


thread.cfm?threadid=90241&messages=49#1994158

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:53 AM

No George, your parallel is not accurate. Hotel or pub parking "for patrons only" is generally free. I am not for these purposes only a member of the public. I am a potential participant in the festival, perfectly prepared to pay for what I get, but not prepared to have to pay for what I don't want. It is one reason I don't go to many festivals. Some of you maybe glad of that, of course...

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:02 AM

Hmm, dunno, I'd like to see that contested, Richard. "Potential customer" seems a fuzzy argument to me. Plus, some hotels do charge for parking (I mean in their own parking area, not a shared general car park like NCP). I cannot imagine any civil court deciding to fine a festival for giving camping priority to their season ticket holders, based on the argument that all potential customers ought to have equal access to the facility.

And I'll personally disagree with you most strongly on the last sentence! Not glad, m'lud! :-)

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:08 AM

It all depends upon whom you classify as "fringe " . Sidmouth, for Example ,attracts large numbers of "fringe " attendees every year. Many of these people do not go to any of the programmed events, concerts, workshops etc., but rather go to see, and play with, old friends at venues like the aforementioned Bedford, or the seafront, or some of the other pubs like the Volunteer, the Anchor,etc. Many of these people still use the facilities available at the main campsite, as,subject to demand from season-ticket holders of course, there are usually "camping-only" tickets available.Another contingent,many of whom I know, have been staying for years at the rugby club.I doubt that Sidmouth would be Sidmouth without them ,in fact, and I know that collectively they contribute a huge amount, both musically & financially, to the overall ambience, and indeed continued popularity, of that particular festival. Oh yes ! ----There are also other camp-sites around Sidmouth & its environs from which it it is still possible to get into town by bus, or the car-park at the cricket-club is good value for all day parking. Ok, so no problems so far, then !!
However-----!!!! There is a "fringe" of seafront "traders" selling such delights as birdie-whistles and didgeridoos & henna tattoos etc., and various very un-folk-like musical "acts" & buskers, whose activities are viewed as distasteful ( I am trying to be non-committal here !! ) not to mention the contingent of musical eccentrics who inflict themselves on Bedford sessions etc., but by far and away the worst problem(s) seem to come from the band of itinerants who base themselves in and around the Ham bus-shelter, and whose behaviour and attitude can be very frightening indeed. I have heard many, many ,people say that they enjoyed Sidmouth but found it too dangerous and intimidating to come again, if only because of the tramps & drop-outs. Still, that"s a problem for the festival organisers and the Police to sort out !!!
By and large, I think many festivals, not just folk, but things like Henley Regatta, Ascot, and others, have fringers and hangers-on ,who, providing they can be accommodated & catered for, generally can be regarded as an asset, rather than a nuisance !!

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:17 AM

Well of course the complaints about Sidmouth from the local businesses at least in part were about these very people whom Soldier Boy originally claimed were such an asset. The fringe attenders.

Richard how are you a potential participant in the festival?

In what way are you different from a member of the public?

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:34 AM

I suspect that for a lot of us most times it's "the fringe" and the street events which are the core of the festival, while the concerts and so forth are the extra bits that are nice to have around, but are essentially peripheral.

You can generally buy a season ticket without camping, but it doesn't seem to work the other way round at a lot of festivals. The right way would be to have a camping-with-fringe ticket, and a camping with full-season-ticket. (And a non-camping version of both for those who prefer to sleep under a roof.)

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:34 AM

there's plenty fests where you can just pay camping like Saddleworth or Cleckheaton etc.

You can often ring the organisers to arrange this if its not advertised.

Other do's I've been, its frequently possible to find alternative campsites.

We stayed at a very pleasant one about 3/4m from Bromyard some years ago & also near Shrewsbury last year.

Advantages of regular sites are hot showers power etc

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:39 AM

Why would you want "fringe ticket"?

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Scoville
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:42 AM

If they were treated first-class, they would no longer be fringe.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:49 AM

I don't see what the problem is. Why not just go to the festivals that have the arrangements you like, regarding camping, attendance or non-attendance at concerts, etc., and avoid the ones you don't like?

If the organisers have got it wrong they will soon learn to change it next time. If they've got it right for themselves, but wrong for you, give it a miss. There are plenty of other festivals to go to.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:53 AM

What, Scrump, and do myself out of an opportunity to grumble?
No, your ploy is too obvious.
I will not sacrifice my grumbling rights.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:56 AM

I hope this can be sorted out eventually. All I (we?) can do from here (US) is be envious that you have so many festival and fringe opportunities-- and so many people interested in supporting either the main event or the fringe! I hope the two elements don't squeeze each other out over fights for attendance and revenues-- you wouldn't like the result if you make your music scene like ours! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:01 AM

I'm a potential participant because I will play and sing in the fringe events if I can get there. Not rocket science.

I do go to the festivals I prefer, and not to those I don't prefer. I'm explaining why I prefer. I don't see why I should subsidise concert goers, if all I want to do is camp and fringe (shades of John Inman).

Maybe Mr Happy will oblige with camping info when he re-starts the "nearly free festival" list.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Carol
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:16 AM

Whre's this list then - I wonder if it matches mine?

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:16 AM

Camp and fringe - it's a great name for a pub, or folkie sports activity; or for a request at the hairdresser's.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 01:07 PM

It's an odd debate, to these Yank ears. Here in the US, there is no fringe at festivals. If you attend a festival, you buy a ticket, whether you wish to attend events, or pick in the parking lot or some combination of both. Seems to me, though, that the fringe (at UK festivals), while it may well benefit the town, provides little of value to the festival organizers. It would seem reasonable, to me at least, to attempt to get the town, rather than the festival organizers, to provide camping and parking facilities.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 01:24 PM

That may well be a good potential solution Dick G.
Much appreciate your thoughts on this. Thankyou

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:24 PM

town = council = political correctness = anti-car: Parking? Pigs in flight!

town: rotary club: hoteliers thus camping? pigs in flight!

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:15 PM

Sorry Richard but can you please elucidate.I think you are saying no chance on this earth to both parking and camping but can you add further explaination.Thanks

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Tyke
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:21 PM

Bet you wish you had never stated this soldier boy. Nobody should expect a free ride camping is in short supply at a lot of festivals. Festival Organizer work hard most of the year trying to make sure that the festival is as good as last year and better.
Do festival organizers want to promote Great Music and Dance involving local people a festival that has a healthy fringe Naturally they do it is a great asset to the festival.

But it has to be paid for the fencing the security cleaning the site the showers the toilets. The public liability insurance is at what the cost when if the insurance providers ask the organizers what control has you on the fringe events when the answer is none.

Now if money is a problem I suggest that you speak to the Festival Organizers and ask if there are any stewarding jobs that you could do to reduce the cost of the festival. If there is then suddenly you are not a second-class citizen you're a valued member of a team helping run what will hopefully be another great festival.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:32 PM

"Camp and Fringe" - sounds a bit like a hairdressing salon.
......................
"Seems to me, though, that the fringe (at UK festivals), while it may well benefit the town, provides little of value to the festival organizers.

That leaves out the people who actually attend the festuival. I suspect that without the kind of fringe that festivals generally have in the British Isles a festival would be likely to find a lot of people deciding to go somewhere else instead.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:36 PM

That leaves out the people who actually attend the festival. I suspect that without the kind of fringe that festivals generally have in the British Isles a festival would be likely to find a lot of people deciding to go somewhere else instead.

There is an alternative view that says without a festival there is no fringe.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:37 PM

Not simple enough?

Town councils will not provide extra parking - they are obliged in the name of global warming to discourage use of cars.

Town councils will not provide camping, they are in thrall to commercial interests of hotels etc that wish to let expensive rooms.

And for the 93rd time no-one expects a free ride - they object to having to pay for what they don't want and will not use, as well as what they do want and will use.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,:::
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:58 PM

PLEASE - explain again what this thread is about.

Mudcat is an INTERNATIONAL community and this appears to be a petty squabble, over petty squatter's rights, in a petty county, in a now petty country.

Out of context ... you all look like skunks.

Sincerely,
:::

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:13 PM

And for the 93rd time no-one expects a free ride - they object to having to pay for what they don't want and will not use, as well as what they do want and will use.

I cannot see for the life of me why you need the word "festival" to inspire you Richard.

Go find a place with camping, some friendly (licensed for entertainment) pubs and invite all your mates. Others do it via Mudcat quite successfully. Why on earth do you need a festival that as you say 93 times you don't want or need?

Need morris teams? invite a few; need workshops? invite some tutors. organise the festival you want. Much easier than moaning on here that things are not precisely what you personally like.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:49 PM

Maybe festivals that don't want a fringe - if there really are such creatures - could warn people in advance - "no folk music wanted here" for example...

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 06:30 AM

Let me say right at the beginning of this I like sessions and fringes. love to join in singing and have no objections to them. I do have doubts about people who want to camp on a site organised by a festival for its season ticket holders for the price of camping.

BUT:::::::::::

Some highly successful festivals of various hues do not have fringes.

One of the best organised festivals with some of the finest artists I have been to recently was Brampton Live. No fringe.

As far as notices are concerned, you should get out more. Some pubs in towns where festivals are held do have notices saying precisely that. I happen to think they are wrong to do so, but I also admit I have been grateful at times for a pub to have a quiet drink in, where someone is not singing their teenage diary from thirty years ago.

Believe it or not, not everyone likes folk music, not everyone likes their pubs being taken over by a bunch of characters who see themselves as adding colour, others see them as needing a haircut/some new clothes etc.

Not everyone likes music played by a number of people who have just met each other some of whom are not sure which key a tune is played in but will still play in one they like or know.

And not even lovers of folk music like people who have just bought a bodhran and insist on playing it. In fact I personally run a mile from most people who can play one since they invariably want to play it at inappropriate moments, usually when someone is singing a quiet ballad.

The festival with the best fringe I ever went to was the previous incarnations of Sidmouth. The result? The townspeople didn't like it, ("full of people who have just come to make some money and not spend any") and the folkies didn't like it" ("too big/commercial and/or impersonal")I happen to think they were both wrong - but I could see where they were coming from.

But it had a great fringe and probably still does, though I haven't been since it changed hands so to speak. And one evening my wife and I went into the pub fifty yards from the Fish and Chip Shop which had a notice saying "No music".

It was full of season ticket holders.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: My guru always said
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 08:39 AM

S'Funny, I spend almost every weekend at Festivals and buy tickets for all of them except Sidmouth, but then I'm an MBS & put lots of money in the collecting tins, especially when they fine me for being myself! Sometimes I even try to pay for tickets to Festivals that book me :-)

I spend the majority of my time at Festivals enjoying the Fringe and don't object at all to the ticket price. I use all the facilities built in to the price and mostly choose not to go to the concerts.

But if I were to look at going away for a weekend, paying accomodation, theatre or concert tickets etc I would not be able to do it for the same price as a festival ticket. Essentially for me, buying a Festival ticket is a very cheap weekend away, doing what I love to do, in good company - can't moan about that, can I?

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: The Barden of England
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:08 AM

Like you MGAS I like the weekend festivals and am quite happy to pay for the tickets, but like you when it comes to the week long festivals then that's another ball game. That's when I prefer to go see who I want to and pay at the door/buy a ticket at the festival office, or alternatively put money into the collecting tin at my session, or at someone elses like Leadfingers session for instance. My wife on the other hand likes to steward and get the season ticket, so we're both happy. Many of the festivals include in their programme session venues, so it seems to me they like to see the fringe happening. The situation as it is now works fine for me.
John Barden

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:27 AM

I dislike festivals--you are herded, fenced in, and tended in a fashion that encourages the worst sort of crowd crowd behavior (sorry, "behaviour"), and musical performances are offered up in the worst possible setting--

The worst thing, however, is high ticket costs and the mechanics of security shut out community involvement--which is what, supposedly, makes it "folk" rather than commercial entertainment--

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:40 AM

Not all festivals are like that. Some are more community oriented, like Broadstairs, for example.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Scoville
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:53 AM

In the U.S., at least around here, I don't think it's usually so much a case of discouraging cars as simply not having any place to put them, either at all or without causing a major nuisance to residents (festivalgoers blocking driveways, squatting on private property, etc.). One urban festival I attended several years ago had the foresight to use downtown parking garages (unoccupied since it was on a weekend) for a $5 a day parking fee and then provide shuttle buses to the festival itself, which was not a camping venue. But this was a very large festival organized with input from the city, with nationally-known acts, not a small regional or local deal.   Tickets were not cheap and I'm sure they didn't make much off the whole thing the first year. That kind of thing would have been impossible for independent festival-holders.

Even at camping venues, there is simply a limit to how many people a given space can manage. I've heard of festivals where the wastewater systems were overloaded because there were so many more people than the grounds were intended to hold. Talk about spoiling your weekend--try waking up with your van surrounded by sewage.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:24 AM

Talk about spoiling your weekend--try waking up with your van surrounded by sewage

Look on the bright side - at least you weren't one of those poor buggers in a tent :-)

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Scoville
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:25 AM

Amen.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Carol
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:45 AM

If you start your own festival you can join the Assoc. of Festival Organisers and get free tickets from all the other people in the club or so I believe.
Personally when I was working I paid for season tickets which often I didn't use, also my attitude was that I wouldn't be a steward to use up valuable festival singaround time/end up in a concert venue that I wouldn't enjoy!
Now that I'm retired and disabled the former still applies and I don't know how welcome I would be as a steward, who can't climb stairs or run after people!
I reckon my best option would be to join a singing group! Still couldn't climb stairs!!

Truth is I'm hoping to get to about 20 weekend sessions/festivals this year some are nearly free and none would break the bank, and at least I have plenty of choice.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:00 AM

"If you start your own festival you can join the Assoc. of Festival Organisers and get free tickets from all the other people in the club or so I believe."

This is a facility that's provided at the discretion of the festivals involved. I wouldn't recommend starting a festival just to get the free tickets - I think someobody was rumbled not that long ago...

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:38 AM

I love the idea of the Association of Festival Organisers. Is there a badge or a tie ?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Carol
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:48 AM

Probably or even a handshake!

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:56 AM

I think starting a festival just so you could get free tickets to other festival is a daft way of doing things and believe me - there are easier ways of getting festival tickets. Joining a dance team is a lot easier for example.

If I went to a folk club and suggested that I didn't like the main artist but I liked the floor singers and therefore could I come in for free and I would go out when the main artist came on the organiser would look at me as if I was barking. And he or she would be correct to do so.

The remarkable thing about these people who go around being colourful and entertaining us all with their guitars and songs of angst is that they only ever seem to do it when there is a festival on that someone else has organised and someone else is paying for in the way of purchasing tickets.

Let's take the example of Tenterden which Richard quoted earlier.

Instead of whinging and saying you have to buy a season ticket merely to camp, why not come the following week?

Since you don't want to pay for anything in the way of concerts but just come along and play in the pubs I cannot see why you don't do just that.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Carol
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:01 PM

There is also the definiton of a festival, I'hve started 2 'song and music' weekends i.e. DIY no guests, I wouldn't have thought of trying to join the Association and also would imagine that I would have been told to go away if I had tried!

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:10 PM

Let me make that readable.

I dislike festivals--you are herded, fenced in, and tended in a fashion that encourages the worst sort of crowd crowd behavior (sorry, "behaviour"), and musical performances are offered up in the worst possible setting

Fine - dont go would be my first answer.

Secondly which festival have you been to - that sounds more like a pop festival to me. I have been to virtually all of the larger and a number of the smaller folk festivals and I don't recognise that description.

The worst thing, however, is high ticket costs and the mechanics of security shut out community involvement--which is what, supposedly, makes it "folk" rather than commercial entertainment

When you say "community involvement" precisely which community are you talking about?

Clearly it is not the folk community since they are at the festival otherwise it would not be there.

Clearly it isn't the local community, all festival organisers work extremely hard to get the local community involved at various levels.

So when you say community involvement of whom are you speaking?

Could it possible be the community that hangs around folk festivals without buying a ticket and sits in the pubs playing to themselves with no thought for anyone else?

Just asking.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 03:09 PM

You haven't been, perhaps, to the Philadephia Folk Festival. It's big, and been there for a long time. We have a wide assortment of others, including Bluegrass Festivals(which can be a lot like stock car races)and blues festivals--

A lot of festivals(like the Smithsonian Folklife Festival) are free, and run with support and cooperation of a variety of public and private institutions(the Smithonian cooperates with a number of related regional festivals)--some are great, some, well--

However, my bias runs toward community festivals, at churches, for instance, where music is a part of the tradition of that particular community--where, say, the band plays the participants know from their own culture, dances that they have always done, traditional food etc.

My feeling is that syncretic "festivals" tend toward becoming just another roadside attraction--special events that take on a life of their own, a lot like water parks-

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 04:32 PM

The answer is, basically, yes.

If you don't want to pay to go to the 'concert' events, you are not the first priority of the organisers, like it or not.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 06:48 PM

the previous incarnations of Sidmouth. The result? The townspeople didn't like it, ("full of people who have just come to make some money and not spend any") and the folkies didn't like it" ("too big/commercial and/or impersonal")

I think those are both cases of false festival memory syndrome, which have to be challenged, otherwise people starr beieveing them.

Especially the first - yes there were some townspeoplemwho didn't like teh festuval, but they were almoist certainly in a minority. And festival goers grumbling like that would almost always go on to admit that they loved it, as evidenced by massive recidivism.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 06:53 PM

It's 'The Folkiedave Show' taking over this thread.
Please give other Mudcatters a chance Dave and also please refrain from continually miss-quoting and twisting what people have said to suit your rather embittered views and attitude.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:23 PM

Aw come on Soldier Boy, don't spoil our fun ! He's so easy to wind up.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:30 PM

Reality check: Tenterden last year, fine muddy field, long wet grass, lots of empty space, no-one asked what side I was with or which booked guest I was (no water and no bogs, but I have a bog in the vardo and can carry water), walking distance from the sings/sessions if I only took one guitar, the mandolin and the bodhran. Like anyone else I put my quids in the tins whenever asked, and I paid my whack for the camping field. Hell, I'd have paid more to camp in that field than the real campsite out of town that I used the year before. Officially I had to be a guest or with a side: unofficially it was open house.

Only two downsides to that Tenterden (three if you count getting out of the boggy field).

The upstairs sinaground was even more hushed and orderly than usual, and the loony kiddies with the tunable didge and who impounded my guitar (leaving me to play mandolin only) were not there for the Sunday afternoon session. The year before that session wasn't folk but it was massive fun. On the other hand the sea-song mass-sing 2006 was both huge fun and informative.

No winges! And people seemed to be liking what was occurring.

Yes, I do quite a lot of miserable songs. Almost all of them trad (or ish). I'm not a singer songwhiner, and I don't sing my diary.

Many festivals would be vastly inferior without the fringe. Take Sweeps. 15 years ago there was acoustic music in every pub (and on every corner) up and down the High Street (and, miracuously Ben McManigan in all of them simultaneously too), and the Eagle was heaving to real music. Now the pubs are full of electric crap and country, and the festival has lost its soul.

Take Tenterden. What would it be without the three or four sessions going on simultaneously? What will it be next year without the 8 Bells?

Campus festivals are not the same as street and town festivals. I don't expect a daytime fringe at Ely, and I don't expect to be on the campus without paying. But the nights there, playing hunt the capo after 2 bottles of Chateau-Neuf-Du-Pape (ask Bardon, I have elided two stories here) are great - although not fringe.

What makes Edinburgh? Not really a music festival, I know, but it's the fringe.

Sidders - ask Bardon: it's the fringe.

Broadstairs - losing it without the fringe.

Cambridge - don't make me laugh. Whatever happened to main stage 6? Some oldies will know.

The more I rant, the madder it makes me (and the whisky helps). Folk music is not bums on seats listening to the deus ex macchina. It's the music people make, their interpretation of their cultural heritage (er, not all music people make, before we get on to horses again).

Go to concerts if you want to. Don't expect me to subsidise them or the flipping Royal Opera House. I'm not the parasite here. The leech is someone else.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:43 PM

The Downside of Mudcat ! A lot of people either NOT reading , or MIS reading other posts and posting without engaging brain ! It does give a VERY strange impression of what the UK folk scene is all about for our Transpond and other catters !

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 08:00 PM

The first post to this thread used Shepley Spring Festival as an example of a festival that was ignoring the "fringe".

Since it has a "fringe" clearly marked on its website with details of the pubs where it will take place I found that difficult to understand.

It accused Shepley Spring Festival of lacking community involvement. There is a lot of community involvement. Also detailed on the website.

It accused Shepley Spring Festival of not providing camping for fringe attenders just like a lot of other festivals. Well at least Soldier Boy got that one right.

Misquoted?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:31 AM

I don't know if Edinburgh can really be called a fringe anymore - it's bigger than the main festival, and pretty corporate. And overcrowded. I went for the first time last year, and all the braying London media types in the Pleasance Courtyard had me scurrying for shelter.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: dozy rozy
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:19 AM

I find this an interesting topic, and have to add my bit.I have often bought festival tickets, despite using them very little.I tend to gravitate towards the fringe as much of it is very informal and can encourage participation, which is what all music, song and dance is about, in my humble opinion.Some of the ticketed entertainment , for me, is a little too passive, and I find greenfield or contained sites a little like a Butlins camp.However, I appreciate that others have different expectations, and not everyone wants to sit in a pub.
What I do find sad is that there are so many people who obviously enjoy and support folk music, yet cannot simply respect different opinions and views, and go and find what suits them best.Why all the animosity?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:23 AM

I have raved about the Australian National FF before, but it does give a good example of how one can mix concerts and formal events with informal and participatory sessions. I hesitate to call them "fringe" only because these activities are in fact an integral part of the festival, and to attend them you have to have at least a day ticket - the whole festival space is enclosed.

At the NFF you have at any time, throughout the day, apart from all the concerts and formal dance displays:

- at least 4-5 (and in the evening 6-10) informal "tune sessions", with some perhaps favouring different folk styles from Irish to English to bluegrass to Middle Eastern etc
- at least 2 "managed" singarounds
- at least 2 "unmanaged" singarounds
- at least 2 "blackboard" concerts (where people can put their names up for a 15-minute spot
All of the above are indoors. In addition, outdoors you have:
- at least 5-6 informal jamming sessions
- any number of buskers
- huge, fun and tat-free "market"
- a dozen or more food stalls with quality food from all over the globe
- half a dozen cafes with tables where you can have a coffee or a beer and start your own session; nobody minds, and you'll soon be joined by others

The day ticket is £19 - bloody good value for all that, even if you ignore the dozen or so SIMULTANEOUS concerts from noon till 11pm to which it entitles you, with names "big" and "small", but all of high quality.

When I was there, I even found the opportunity to join a Greek music jam with an ensemble from Melbourne! And there was ethnic music from any place you'd care to mention, if you're into that sort of thing. And if you're not, the sessions and singarounds would surely fit the bill.

Do yourselves a favour and book an Easter holiday in Australia, and go to the NFF. At £70 for the full five days (£60 if you book early), half price for teenagers and free for the young'uns, there is no better value festival anywhere, I'd argue; hardly surprising they get 40 to 50 thousand people.

But a very good example of how a festival can accomodate all tastes and still be good value for those only wanting to partake of some of the flavours on offer.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: nutty
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:55 AM

What I do find sad is that there are so many people who obviously enjoy and support folk music, yet cannot simply respect different opinions and views, and go and find what suits them best.Why all the animosity?

You had better ask Soldier Boy that question, Rozy. He chose to single out Shepley Spring Festival for criticism rather than make the discussion general.

He seems to have forgotten that he started a thread on a similar topic last year.

Can a mainly 'Fringe' festival work?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,whitby fringe person
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:46 PM

It really pisses me off the way that some people have a holier than thou attitude. Lots of festivals have a very healthy fringe and in some cases this is what makes the festival.
Some of you who have complained in this thread I know do not buy season tickets and enjoy the fringe.

Soldier boy means well, don't twist his words.

Its sometimes difficuly to support a festival if they always have the same guests on - how many times will you pay to see the same artist doing the same thing

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:05 PM

I shall be at the Holmfirth Festival of Folk the week before.

Loads of potentially good sessions, cheap camping no need to buy any tickets for anything, and loads of free events.

Fantastic.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: folk1e
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 09:16 PM

You pay for what you get! ...... or is it You get what you pay for!
Eather way the choice is yours, if you do contribute to the fest then not going and therefore depriving the fest of your money will financialy affect the fest! The organisere will take note and compensate the next year!
I do know that "Non Ticket Holders" have been a problem at Saddleworth before now!
Many would be "fringers" do baulk at a realistic price for camping (which are usually far higher than commercial rates).
All will be sorted out in the fullness of time. ...eh?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 11:47 PM

Bile and bullshit springs to mind.
The fringe are always happy to pay the going rate for camping.
They have never been spongers,paracites or free-loaders.
This just shows the true mind set of people who, for their own poisoned reasons, regard the fringe as shit on their shoe.

Thanks GUEST Whitby fringe person you know where I am coming from, I appreciate your comments and like you I hate the poisonous dwarfs that deliberately twist your words and infect a well meaning thread with their bile.
I started this thread in all innocence but I am not suprised by the negative and caustic element that really do believe that 'The Fringe' really are second class citizens and are the scum of the earth.
Without knowing it they just keep on proving my point and insist on showing their true predudicial colours. Such sad people.
Hey Ho!

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:26 AM

I am in favour of a fringe.

I am in favour of sessions.

I am in favour of cheap camping for fringegoers if that's what the festival organisers want to do.

I am not in favour of moaning when it is not what they want to do.

I am a stall holder at the Shepley Spring Festival. I declare an interest.

Soldier Boy you started this thread with a bunch of unfounded or unsupportable allegations about the Shepley Spring Festival.

Perhaps your dance team couldn't get an invite?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:45 AM

Folkiedave, when I started this thread I said that some festivals do not seem to encourage or support the fringe and asked why this is so?

Purely as one example I sited Shepley Spring Festival because camping is only available to full weekend ticket holders, leaving the fringe out in the cold. This is not an unfounded or unsupportable allegation, it is a fact and is clearley stated on the festival web site.

Contrary to what you think and are so defensive about I never intended to 'pick on' one particular festival. I only mentioned the Shepley Festival because I had just stumbled across more details of this festival on Mudcat as a new thread.
Also, because of the fact that there was no camping provided for non-ticket holders this seemed to me to be a suitable example to prove one of the points I was making.

Now that I have pointed this out to you would you PLEASE stop being so obsessively defensive about just one particular festival.
I realise that you are a 'stallholder' at this festival so obviously have massive personal investment in it's organisation,planning and promotion. Indeed on the mudcat thread for the Shepley Festival you also appear there as its most ardent and prolific voice and champion.

This is all very commendable but this thread is not, as I have pointed out, all about just one festival. It is about all folk festivals and their varying acceptance or non-acceptance of the fringe and why this should be so.

This is an open discussion which is open to everyone and should not be monopolised and taken over by one individual,who appears,I am sorry to say,to have a very blinkered perspective.

Can we therefore now get back to what this discussion is all about and invite other contributors to have their say.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:49 AM

Oh for God's sake - it's time to PAY UP or SHUT UP. If the organisers don't want you you are not going to change their mind by bleating on and on. It's all so simple really - just go to a festival that can afford to give up precious camping space and loose money at the same time.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:51 AM

.....and another thing

NO FESTIVAL NO FRINGE!!!

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 12:14 PM

Why should they lose money GUEST,guest when most camping-only festival goers are quite happy to pay £5-£10 per night per person. This is additional revenue (if they have the space) and not a loss leader.

A good example of where this really does work is when Moor and Coast provides camping for non-season ticket holders at the Community College during the Whitby Folk Week Festival.
Their charges add up to £10 per night per person and no one complains because they are just so grateful that someone has taken the initiative to cater for droves of fringe goers.
Because of their not insubstantial efforts this makes a massive contribution to the well-being of the festival in terms of its overall welcome,acceptance and inclusivity of ALL festival goers.
I really do feel that this makes a big difference and that is all I am trying to say.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 12:18 PM

.....and another thing

festivals that loose money disappear..... most organisers can't afford to remortgage their homes to pay off the depts. Don't you know what a worry it all is trying to make ends meet. Waiting for the ticket sales to come in each day - fretting when they don't. Yes I am a festival organiser - just tell me I'm mean not to let you camp at my festival. And I'll tell you I don't care. You can say what you like to me it alters nothing - I have had to develope a think skin.

You think it's all so simple well I can tell you it's NOT.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:18 PM

A good example of where this really does work is when Moor and Coast provides camping for non-season ticket holders at the Community College during the Whitby Folk Week Festival.

I think Soldier Boy has been very positive here and this is an excellent idea for Shepley Spring Festival to cater for fringe-goers like Soldier Boy, who has been so vehement about the need for this.

No doubt he will go ahead and organise it. Probably not for this year, a bit late, but for next year. There must be a farmer nearby who would want to make extra money from his fields.

I look forward to the possibility of staying on Soldier Boy's campsite at the next Shepley Spring Festival.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:44 PM

Whats all the problem about.

if a festival says that you must by a season ticket to camp, then thats the name of the game. If you don't like it, find some other accomodation.

I prefer to rent a property. I don't want to hear the crap that people can't afford to do that. I don't work and I can't afford it, but I would rather have my choice.

What I object to is day passes having prioroty over season tickets. That makes my blood boil, especially as it is a lot of money for me to fork out.

Stop your bloody whinging. look at the rules and iether accept them or do something else.


Somebody said earlier, if you don't like it, then do a festival yourself. I agree with that.

There are too many arseholes complaining about what is right and what is wrong, when most organisers put a lot of their free time into these events, only for the arsehole cheap skate whingers to jump on their backs. And that means you Soldier Boy.

Do your own festival, and wait for everybody to have a go at you.

There are some tight fisted gits around and it makes my blood boil to hear them whinge.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:54 PM

Did I just say that. ooh eerr :-)

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,Folksinger
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:27 PM

Yes, you said it. What you want is to rip off people who make the music rather than are bums on seats passively consuming what the great and the good like you hand down to them. Drive the fringe out of festivals and what you have is FMCG trade in music that's a bit like folk music. Make the music maker pay to make the music.

But there again, that is what you do at your club too, isn't it? Auditions to be a floor singer. You must be so wonderful, I bet you polish your dick before you fuck.

Reminds me of Chester in the late 60s and 70's - there was a "club" like that called the "Mucky Duck". I wrote an add on verse for "Martin"

"Sought folk at the Mucky Duck (fie, etc)
Seems that I was out of luck"

It's why you won't see me at your "club" but you will see me at true festivals like Miskin.

It's as bad as the "Pay to play" ripoffs at the electric venues.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:30 PM

Miskin is cancelled..................do keep up.........

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:43 PM

It's pretty obvious Folksinger meant "when it runs".

And I give some of his post about 20 seconds when the thought police catch up.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:52 PM

What you want is to rip off people who make the music rather than are bums on seats passively consuming what the great and the good like you hand down to them. Drive the fringe out of festivals and what you have is FMCG trade in music that's a bit like folk music. Make the music maker pay to make the music.

Well, that is not what he said and nor is it anything like anyone I have ever met means.

There is an agreement - certainly by me - that the fringe is a valuable part of a festival and I have said so on numerous occasions.

As I have suggested to Soldier Boy and I make you the same offer.....why not arrange your own camp sites for festivals. Virtually all will have some fields it will be possible to rent. All you have to do then is come to some agreement with the owner about the cost, arrange toilet and shower hire, public liability insurance, security, and so on.........then watch the money roll in for clearly such a facility is in great demand.

Since you are a great fan of Miskin, can I ask since it does not make it clear on the website, if you can buy "just camping" tickets for Miskin?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:14 PM

Never thought of it this way, but the oft-mentioned Getaway (and many other folk retreats that have followed in its footsteps) is a fine example of having a hugely successful fringe without the need for a festival. All that's required are some enthusiastic folk, a rentable site and a group of dedicated fanatics who are willing to work their asses off with no financial compensation.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:08 PM

At the Getaway , EVERYBODY pays , so there are NO freeloaders - and a lot pf Fringer performers are quite happy to pay their way at UK Festivals , as long as they are not expected to subsidise a series of concerts they are not going to attend !
But the fact is , as stated earlier , NO Festival , NO Fringe !!

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:09 PM

100 !

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:55 PM

Of course there is no fringe without a festival. No one disputes that. All I am saying is please don't see the fringe as hangers-on and parasites. Everyone to their own thing and if you can blend them both into a festival then even better.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:03 AM

From: GUEST,Folksinger
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:27 PM

your posting is absolutely unacceptable!

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: nutty
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:20 AM

The question still remains Soldierboy ...
If you feel so strongly about this ,why are you not doing anything about it and I don't mean moaning or pontificating but why aren't you on a festival committee changing things from the inside?????

Come on get your finger out and do something. I answer lies with you and all the others who are prepared to critisise festival organisers without lifting a finger.