The Fringe - second class citizens??

Subject: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 09:22 PM

I am totally fed up with Folk Festivals treating the 'fringe' element as second class citizens. Why is this so?

A case in hand is the new 'Shepley Spring Festival',West Yorkshire.
This is a green field site which has an adjoining campsite but it is only available for full weekend ticket holders. This means that the glorious fringe festival goers would have to camp at the next available campsite many many miles away even though their web site encourages the fringe element to sing/play in the local pubs.

This is just one example of many where folk festival organisers, in their infinate wisdom, totally snub the fringe in favour of the more commercially lucrative weekend/season ticket holders.
This really gets my goat.
The fringe not only brings revenue to the local community but adds so much in the way of colour,entertainment,atmosphere and fun to the social and business environment during the duration of any festival.

Too many festival organisers choost to ignore this at their peril and then wonder why their green field site festival struggles to be welcomed and accepted by the the local community the following year,when they only remember the inconvenience of lots of extra traffic,noise and litter.

It's the fringe that makes all the difference and which warms the local community to any festival on its doorstep.

They may not want to attend lots of concerts etc and may not wish to fork out for a full weekend/season ticket but they really do add so much to the overall well-being of a festival and its future long-term security.

I do believe that festivals that are inclusive and fully welcome and engage the fringe within the whole local community will always win out on festivals that lock people in to maximum income generation and are divorced from the neigbouring community.
How else does the local community benefit from this?

Come on festival organisers, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee!!

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 09:49 PM

If every body only went to the Fringe , there wouldnt BE a Festival - Or a campp site for you to free load on Soldier Boy - And I RUN fringe at Sidmouth , and am happy to sort out my own accomodation , Or use the ticket to get on the camp site 1

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 02:52 AM

You have missed the point completely Leadfingers.
Please read my opening thread again, I am not talking about fringe only festivals I am talking about how much the fringe adds to a festival and how they are interdependant upon one another.
And your remark about 'freeloading' wonderfully sums up what I have already said about the negative and pompous attitude of organisers towards the fringe element. So stereo-typical. Well done sir!!

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:22 AM

Soldier boy, I think it has a lot more to do with basic security and capacities than it has snobbery. The campsite in question may have a limited capacity, and so the organisers have been compelled to take some sort of a decision on how it is used. It makes sense that if people are going to pay 50 or 60 quid to get into your festival, you have to provide decent facilities for them as a priority - otherwise they won't come back next year, you won't sell tickets and your festival would go bust. Perhaps if the campsite could accomodate sufficient numbers, they'd open it up to people who haven't bought a festival ticket. But there is also this quite serious issue of security. There were festivals last summer which reported some very unpleasant incidents of tent robbing. If the people on your campsite are all festival ticket holders, it's no guarantee that they're legitemate punters, but at least you're excercising some control over who is utilising your facilities and hopefully discouraging some of the more opportunist thieves out there.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:58 AM

Would you be kind enough to tell me how people who do not contribute financially to a festival add so much to the overall well-being of a festival and its future long-term security?

I have heard people in a community say "those festival people are great - its the hangers on that spoil it?" So much for the fringe.

Most organisers do a lot for the locality and in particular the local School children.

If you bothered to read the programme for the Shepley Spring Festival for example you will notice that a number of the artists are booked to work with local schoolchildren, and that those same school children will be giving what is called a "Showcase Concert" on the Saturday. No doubt their parents will be along to watch them.

Now that's what I call working with the local community. Not sat singing in a local pub with all your mates or walking from pub to pub being colourful.

If a green field festival generates litter then by definition it is cleared up within that green field. If a green field festival generates traffic - by definition it stays on site except at the beginning and end of the festival.

All greenfield festivals organise toilet cleaning and litter picking to ensure that everything is left spick and span. Do you think Warwick Festival would be allowed to use the grounds of a every expensive private school if they left the place looking like a tip? What do those who sit in a pub being colourful with their mates contribute to litter picking and toilet cleaning?

For those not aware Soldier Boy is a regular supportive poster about a festival which is held nearby to Shepley and the week before.

I wish that festival all the luck in the world and I hope it is a successful as it deserves to be.

What a shame Soldier Boy can't be as tolerant to festivals nearby.

I declare an interest. I shall have a stall at Shepley Festival.

Any interests to declare Soldier Boy?

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: fiddler
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:00 AM

How many times have I heard this discussion which usually degenerates in to an argument!

By it's nature Fringe is not part of the festival so by what right do Fringe attendees claim admittance to a camp site which was built temporarily (a very expensive infrastructure) and has 24 hour security usually.

Sites these days are checked by the fire brigade and sometimes subject to other terms and conditions.

I think a Fringe element at any festival is often the sign of a very healthy festival. On a personal level I often spend most of my time at fringe events although as I usually work for my ticket I can actually attend the official festival.

Thats my two penneth - you pays for your ticket and gets the privilidges it brings or you doesn't and live around the fetival and all it's associated activities! BUt contributing immensley to the atmosphere of the festival as a whole but one without which the festival would still survive.

Andy

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:37 AM

Perfectly happy to pay for camping - I don't want that free - but I don't want to have to pay for concerts I don't want to go to in order to camp. Don't mind paying a modest entry fee to sessions and sinagrounds. I don't ask the bums on seats, the puddings with ears, to subsidise me, but I don't see why I should subsidise them. If I wnat to hear a pro play, then I'll pay for his concert. If I don't then I won't. Sorry, Leadfingers, and all that, but why should I subsidise the fee you charge the organiser?

What do I contribute? Well, I may be over-egging my pudding, but I think I'm welcome in most sinagrounds. A well-known professional singer was very complimentary last Tenterden about what my mandolin added to the accompaniment in a song session, and I had something similar said by a good amateur at Sweeps last year too - so we "free-loaders" do help to create the often thrilling experience that a good sing or session can create. And why do pubs participate in the fringe? To sell beer. Do we drink (and pay for) beer? I think we can say so. Do we drink beer in the beer tents that pay the festivals for the right to supply beer there. Oh, yes, I think we do. Do we buy food? That would be a yes, too. Do we put our quids in the collecting tins at Broadstairs and Tenterden? Er - yes.

We are the gene pool from which the paid professionals come. Don't kill the goose. And don't mix metaphors either, but that's another story.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Carol
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 05:45 AM

Agreed Richard and yes, I'm perfectly happy to pay for camping and for enntry to singarounds etc. - why can't festival organisers sell a 'fringe' ticket?
There are some 'fringe' festivals DIY type, no artists etc. and I've got to admit that I'm going to more of these lately.
Recently I enquired about going to a festival with my husband as the driver of our campervan -he doesn't go into anything these days but takes me. In fact he's my carer as I'm disabled and liable to fall without any booze!! Anyhow the reply was that we would have to buy 2 season tickets plus camping costing £72 for the weekend, yet other festivals offer concessions for OAPs and disabled etc. and wouldn't expect my partner to buy a ticket which he won't be using.   although with concessions we have bought 2 tickets when one hasn't been used at all.
another thing festival organisers do is programme a SAR on the Friday night and then ignore the singers etc. until the Suday survivors session!
I think you need to research your festivals as some are a lot more 'fringe friendly' than others.
Good Luck

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: nutty
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:33 AM

Is this a genuine beef or is it just another excuse Soldier Boy is using to 'knock' the new SHEPLEY FESTIVAL?

AM I BEING CYNICAL? Perhaps but would it not have been better to let the organisers to get one festival under their belt before questioning their organisation.

If you want to do the festival on the cheap there are plenty of opportunities to Steward or offer your services in any other capacity (Run singarounds, workshops etc.) or even go (as I know Soldierboy often does) as a member of a dance team.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:47 AM

Richard - if you want to go to a festival let's say Shepley, since that was the one originally quoted then provided there is space - you are free to book tickets at most of the concerts.

People are free to pay for camping anywhere you like except on the festival site. So far I do not see the problem.

What the complaint is that there isn't an adjoining camp site which will allow people to come to the town where the festival is, chuck a quid (or the cost of half a pint) into a bucket and not have to walk or drive.

There are loads of festivals that do have such things - Miskin being a well-known one. There are lots of mudgathers where catters meet together, sing together and do all the things they want to do without having to worry about driving home.

They arrange their own camping and so on. I was at one last Sunday in Spalding. Though it was a bit early for camping.

As I have pointed out to Soldier Boy, Shepley Festival does have a fringe. It is a small place but two pubs will be welcoming to singers and musicians. And there are loads of top-class dance sides appearing in the streets. Who no doubt will be singing in the pubs too.

It has a different sort of fringe involving the local community. This includes schoolchildren working with festival artists culminating in a concert at the festival; it has a concert with a brass band and a male voice choir (very popular in those parts) along with a community choir all performing together in the local parish church one evening.

So all in fact it doesn't have is cheap camping so Soldier Boy can come and sing with his mates and not have to drive.

I have to tell Soldier Boy that is normal at a lot of festivals. And I see no evidence of them failing. In fact just the opposite.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:00 AM

If you have to catch the bus in (lets say at Tenterden 2 years ago) hover all day, and get the bus back, it is a major impediment. You can't have the instruments of choice to hand (I vary if I can between 12 string, 6 string, mandolin and the muhc maligned Irish drum). Most importantly you spend all day worrying about missing the last bus back and having to walk 4 miles pished at midnight carrying a heavy load.

The answer is simple - enough central camping to accommodate the puddings with ears AND take the fringers who will pay for their camping. Anything less is what competition lawyers call "line forcing".

Now what Tenterden needs is a tractor on standby to tow people out of the swamp in the central camping, but other than that it is damned good as a local field. Local field with a tap would be better still, but I'm not picky.... Some might like loos and showers too.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:07 AM

Folkiedave

'Richard - if you want to go to a festival let's say Shepley, since that was the one originally quoted then provided there is space - you are free to book tickets at most of the concerts. '

Folkiedave - didn't you read what Richard said - He doesn't want to attend concerts!!

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:10 AM

Anything less is what competition lawyers call "line forcing".

Whilst I am generally happy to bow to your legal knowledge Richard, that I feel is not an analogy.

There is a folk festival. If you want to camp at the festival which the organisers have organised including the camping - you buy a season ticket and that allows camping. If that is a permanent camp site and the owner only chooses to let season ticket holders at the festival into it, that is their privilege.

If the organisers choose to open up camping to anyone who pays the fee that is also their privilege.

If you want to camp elsewhere and not buy a season ticket you are perfectly free to do so.

Like I said I don't see the problem. No-one is being forced to do anything.......

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:30 AM

You are quite right, Mr. Happy I didn't realise that.

Don't mind paying a modest entry fee to sessions and sinagrounds

What a good idea Richard, let organisers charge for sessions. Even better let them charge the ones who get to sing more than anyone else who are just there to listen....

That'll go well on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:21 AM

Why can't the festival simply charge for the campsite separately, so you could have "official" festivalgoers staying offsite or "fringe" festivalgoers using the paid site?

A separate fenced-in campsite (with an open free one by the river) has worked at Newcastleton for many years. There's no such thing as a weekend festival ticket at Newcastleton but I don't see why that should make any difference.

I usually do go some concerts at a festival, but never want to go to them all; I've never been to a festival with an all-in ticket and don't intend to.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:28 AM

maybe, as I suggested earlier, it's purely about the capacity of the campsite, and the festival organisers wanting to make sure that the people who are paying for the festival can get onto it...

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:32 AM

Like Leadfingers I help run a Fringe thing at 'The Bedford' at Sidmouth. Now I do know that many who go there don't want a season ticket. What they do is what Richard is suggesting which is go and see the concerts they want to, either pay for accommodation or go to one of the many campsites, and since 2005 (the festival that wasn't supposed to happen) the official campsite which charges a fee for the week. They, along with myself and many of the people who come in to listen to the session, put money in the collecting box every day to help ensure the festival happens for everybody. I like to go along to concerts where there are people I want to see, and I don't mind forgoing 2 or 3 pints a day when I don't, that money to go into the festival collecting tins. The fringe is important to a festival, and the festival is important to the fringe.
John Barden

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: nutty
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:41 AM

This really is a pointless discussion without having all the facts to hand.

LIKE .....

HOW MUCH LAND IS AVAILABLE FOR CAMPERS?

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO HIRE THE LAND?

HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD WANT TO BUY FESTIVAL TICKETS (INCLUDING CAMPING)

IF THE ORGANISERS SELL CAMPING SPACE TO THE 'FRINGE' WILL THERE BE ENOUGH ROOM AVAILABLE FOR THE ABOVE CAMPERS.

WHAT WILL BE THE COST OF PROVIDING OTHER FACILITIES? (SHOWERS, TOILETS, RUBBISH REMOVAL ETC)

Organisers have to balance the books yet it appears that whatever they do some people are never satisfied.

If you have a problem with a particular festival then go elsewhere.
If you want to go to a particular festival then pay up or travel daily by car and don't drink.

Don't moan that you (individually) are not being catered for. Festival organisers do not organise for the individual but for the majority.

AS a last resort, you can always organise your own festival.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:44 AM

Well said, nutty

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:00 AM

AS a last resort, you can always organise your own festival.

What? Crazy idea. Who suggested that? Madness sheer bloody madness.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Grab
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:07 AM

...in favour of the more commercially lucrative weekend/season ticket holders.

The answer's in the question. It costs money to put on a folk festival, not just paying for the performers, but everything else as well. Publicity, police, maybe road closures, etc. And yes, camping.

If there's unlimited space for camping, then sure, there's no real reason for there not to be a reasonable fee for just camping, to cover the cost of hiring the land, hiring portaloos, security and everything else. But if there's limited space, they CANNOT let "fringe" people camp there when that would be reducing the number of full-price people attending the festival. (And let's face it, for most people camping, if they can't camp then they can't afford the festival - hotels are often not an option.) Without all those full-price tickets sold, there wouldn't BE a festival.

The festival CAN survive without a fringe of people who've not paid for tickets. Most of the "puddings with ears" will be attending singarounds, workshops, pub sessions and so on. Plenty of beer and food will be sold to them.

But can the fringe survive without the festival - without the "puddings with ears" who intersperse concerts with singarounds and sessions, or who may even (shock horror!) prefer listening to other people performing, people who are much better than themselves and than 99% of the fringe? I'd say no.

Graham.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:12 AM

Line forcing is the refusal to supply goods or services that the supplier does in fact supply (camping), unless the recipient also pays for other goods and services that are not wanted (concert season ticket).

If the campsite cannot service all demands on it that is another potential problem - but we don't know that that is the case yet. What we do know is that (in some cases) there is camping, and you can't have it unless you pay for a concert season that you don't want.

In Sidders, there isn't really any nearby (= easy walking with two instruments) camping, I gather.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:24 AM

HOW MUCH LAND IS AVAILABLE FOR CAMPERS?

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST TO HIRE THE LAND?

HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD WANT TO BUY FESTIVAL TICKETS (INCLUDING CAMPING)

IF THE ORGANISERS SELL CAMPING SPACE TO THE 'FRINGE' WILL THERE BE ENOUGH ROOM AVAILABLE FOR THE ABOVE CAMPERS.

WHAT WILL BE THE COST OF PROVIDING OTHER FACILITIES? (SHOWERS, TOILETS, RUBBISH REMOVAL ETC)

At a weekend festival like those you have been talking about then I agree it's a matter of 'take the season ticket' and pay for the camping - I have been going to Ely for quite a few years now and always do that, the same goes for Fareham & Gosport Easter festival and for Fylde folk festival. I was just mentioning Sidmouth - a week long festival where the circunstances are somewhat different - but in the days of Mrs. Casey it was season ticket and pay for the camping, and no camping without season ticket. That's one of the reasons I always camped at Kings Down Tail, or Salcombe Regis as I didn't want a season ticket. I still put my share into the collection tins and went to see the artists I wanted to see - but stayed for a week and not just for a weekend so probably paid as much as those who came in for a day ticket or two.
John Barden

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:28 AM

Sorry, I meant toi say 'probaly paid as much into the festival as those that came in for a day ticket or two.
The other thing I meant to mention is that the Camping ticket should charge enough to pay for all the things you mentioned like facilities.
John Barden

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:29 AM

Richard,

the supplier (festival organisers in this case) is not providing all services to the general public, however (camping in this case); if I happen to be passing through the town on my holidays, I could not reasonably expect them to offer their camping facilities to me. It is an ancillary facility offered to its main customers (season ticket holders), and indeed they are not even obliged to offer such ancillary facilities at all, even to them (except that this would impact the attractiveness of the festival weekend ticket, but that is simply a commercial consideration and not an obligation on the part of the organisers).

So, as the camping service is not offered to the general public, it cannot be line forcing.

I see it as little different to a restaurant or pub or hotel offering car parking "for the use of patrons only". It is an ancillary service, and not open to all who might want to park simply to go to the shops...

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:30 AM

Richard - the bus at Sidders runs frequently and early until very late and it is so much easier than Broadstairs. From the official campsite to the Esplenade and the reverse. There are also 2 or 3 campsites that are further afield but once again have bus services from the campsite to Sidmouth. I really is very well served in this respect.
John Barden

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:33 AM

That's a good point George. I do see the problem for weekend festivals and am happy to pay up. As has been said before, if I don't like the lineup, I don't go.
John Barden

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:47 AM

'AS a last resort, you can always organise your own festival.

What? Crazy idea. Who suggested that? Madness sheer bloody madness.

........not really, most DIY do's are some of the most enjoyable.

For example, see here for Mr Happy & fiends Easter Minifolkdo!


thread.cfm?threadid=90241&messages=49#1994158

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:53 AM

No George, your parallel is not accurate. Hotel or pub parking "for patrons only" is generally free. I am not for these purposes only a member of the public. I am a potential participant in the festival, perfectly prepared to pay for what I get, but not prepared to have to pay for what I don't want. It is one reason I don't go to many festivals. Some of you maybe glad of that, of course...

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:02 AM

Hmm, dunno, I'd like to see that contested, Richard. "Potential customer" seems a fuzzy argument to me. Plus, some hotels do charge for parking (I mean in their own parking area, not a shared general car park like NCP). I cannot imagine any civil court deciding to fine a festival for giving camping priority to their season ticket holders, based on the argument that all potential customers ought to have equal access to the facility.

And I'll personally disagree with you most strongly on the last sentence! Not glad, m'lud! :-)

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:08 AM

It all depends upon whom you classify as "fringe " . Sidmouth, for Example ,attracts large numbers of "fringe " attendees every year. Many of these people do not go to any of the programmed events, concerts, workshops etc., but rather go to see, and play with, old friends at venues like the aforementioned Bedford, or the seafront, or some of the other pubs like the Volunteer, the Anchor,etc. Many of these people still use the facilities available at the main campsite, as,subject to demand from season-ticket holders of course, there are usually "camping-only" tickets available.Another contingent,many of whom I know, have been staying for years at the rugby club.I doubt that Sidmouth would be Sidmouth without them ,in fact, and I know that collectively they contribute a huge amount, both musically & financially, to the overall ambience, and indeed continued popularity, of that particular festival. Oh yes ! ----There are also other camp-sites around Sidmouth & its environs from which it it is still possible to get into town by bus, or the car-park at the cricket-club is good value for all day parking. Ok, so no problems so far, then !!
However-----!!!! There is a "fringe" of seafront "traders" selling such delights as birdie-whistles and didgeridoos & henna tattoos etc., and various very un-folk-like musical "acts" & buskers, whose activities are viewed as distasteful ( I am trying to be non-committal here !! ) not to mention the contingent of musical eccentrics who inflict themselves on Bedford sessions etc., but by far and away the worst problem(s) seem to come from the band of itinerants who base themselves in and around the Ham bus-shelter, and whose behaviour and attitude can be very frightening indeed. I have heard many, many ,people say that they enjoyed Sidmouth but found it too dangerous and intimidating to come again, if only because of the tramps & drop-outs. Still, that"s a problem for the festival organisers and the Police to sort out !!!
By and large, I think many festivals, not just folk, but things like Henley Regatta, Ascot, and others, have fringers and hangers-on ,who, providing they can be accommodated & catered for, generally can be regarded as an asset, rather than a nuisance !!

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:17 AM

Well of course the complaints about Sidmouth from the local businesses at least in part were about these very people whom Soldier Boy originally claimed were such an asset. The fringe attenders.

Richard how are you a potential participant in the festival?

In what way are you different from a member of the public?

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:34 AM

I suspect that for a lot of us most times it's "the fringe" and the street events which are the core of the festival, while the concerts and so forth are the extra bits that are nice to have around, but are essentially peripheral.

You can generally buy a season ticket without camping, but it doesn't seem to work the other way round at a lot of festivals. The right way would be to have a camping-with-fringe ticket, and a camping with full-season-ticket. (And a non-camping version of both for those who prefer to sleep under a roof.)

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:34 AM

there's plenty fests where you can just pay camping like Saddleworth or Cleckheaton etc.

You can often ring the organisers to arrange this if its not advertised.

Other do's I've been, its frequently possible to find alternative campsites.

We stayed at a very pleasant one about 3/4m from Bromyard some years ago & also near Shrewsbury last year.

Advantages of regular sites are hot showers power etc

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:39 AM

Why would you want "fringe ticket"?

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Scoville
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:42 AM

If they were treated first-class, they would no longer be fringe.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:49 AM

I don't see what the problem is. Why not just go to the festivals that have the arrangements you like, regarding camping, attendance or non-attendance at concerts, etc., and avoid the ones you don't like?

If the organisers have got it wrong they will soon learn to change it next time. If they've got it right for themselves, but wrong for you, give it a miss. There are plenty of other festivals to go to.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:53 AM

What, Scrump, and do myself out of an opportunity to grumble?
No, your ploy is too obvious.
I will not sacrifice my grumbling rights.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:56 AM

I hope this can be sorted out eventually. All I (we?) can do from here (US) is be envious that you have so many festival and fringe opportunities-- and so many people interested in supporting either the main event or the fringe! I hope the two elements don't squeeze each other out over fights for attendance and revenues-- you wouldn't like the result if you make your music scene like ours! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:01 AM

I'm a potential participant because I will play and sing in the fringe events if I can get there. Not rocket science.

I do go to the festivals I prefer, and not to those I don't prefer. I'm explaining why I prefer. I don't see why I should subsidise concert goers, if all I want to do is camp and fringe (shades of John Inman).

Maybe Mr Happy will oblige with camping info when he re-starts the "nearly free festival" list.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Carol
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:16 AM

Whre's this list then - I wonder if it matches mine?

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:16 AM

Camp and fringe - it's a great name for a pub, or folkie sports activity; or for a request at the hairdresser's.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 01:07 PM

It's an odd debate, to these Yank ears. Here in the US, there is no fringe at festivals. If you attend a festival, you buy a ticket, whether you wish to attend events, or pick in the parking lot or some combination of both. Seems to me, though, that the fringe (at UK festivals), while it may well benefit the town, provides little of value to the festival organizers. It would seem reasonable, to me at least, to attempt to get the town, rather than the festival organizers, to provide camping and parking facilities.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 01:24 PM

That may well be a good potential solution Dick G.
Much appreciate your thoughts on this. Thankyou

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:24 PM

town = council = political correctness = anti-car: Parking? Pigs in flight!

town: rotary club: hoteliers thus camping? pigs in flight!

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:15 PM

Sorry Richard but can you please elucidate.I think you are saying no chance on this earth to both parking and camping but can you add further explaination.Thanks

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Tyke
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:21 PM

Bet you wish you had never stated this soldier boy. Nobody should expect a free ride camping is in short supply at a lot of festivals. Festival Organizer work hard most of the year trying to make sure that the festival is as good as last year and better.
Do festival organizers want to promote Great Music and Dance involving local people a festival that has a healthy fringe Naturally they do it is a great asset to the festival.

But it has to be paid for the fencing the security cleaning the site the showers the toilets. The public liability insurance is at what the cost when if the insurance providers ask the organizers what control has you on the fringe events when the answer is none.

Now if money is a problem I suggest that you speak to the Festival Organizers and ask if there are any stewarding jobs that you could do to reduce the cost of the festival. If there is then suddenly you are not a second-class citizen you're a valued member of a team helping run what will hopefully be another great festival.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:32 PM

"Camp and Fringe" - sounds a bit like a hairdressing salon.
......................
"Seems to me, though, that the fringe (at UK festivals), while it may well benefit the town, provides little of value to the festival organizers.

That leaves out the people who actually attend the festuival. I suspect that without the kind of fringe that festivals generally have in the British Isles a festival would be likely to find a lot of people deciding to go somewhere else instead.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:36 PM

That leaves out the people who actually attend the festival. I suspect that without the kind of fringe that festivals generally have in the British Isles a festival would be likely to find a lot of people deciding to go somewhere else instead.

There is an alternative view that says without a festival there is no fringe.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:37 PM

Not simple enough?

Town councils will not provide extra parking - they are obliged in the name of global warming to discourage use of cars.

Town councils will not provide camping, they are in thrall to commercial interests of hotels etc that wish to let expensive rooms.

And for the 93rd time no-one expects a free ride - they object to having to pay for what they don't want and will not use, as well as what they do want and will use.