The Fringe - second class citizens??

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: nutty
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:20 AM

The question still remains Soldierboy ...
If you feel so strongly about this ,why are you not doing anything about it and I don't mean moaning or pontificating but why aren't you on a festival committee changing things from the inside?????

Come on get your finger out and do something. I answer lies with you and all the others who are prepared to critisise festival organisers without lifting a finger.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:03 AM

From: GUEST,Folksinger
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:27 PM

your posting is absolutely unacceptable!

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:55 PM

Of course there is no fringe without a festival. No one disputes that. All I am saying is please don't see the fringe as hangers-on and parasites. Everyone to their own thing and if you can blend them both into a festival then even better.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:09 PM

100 !

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:08 PM

At the Getaway , EVERYBODY pays , so there are NO freeloaders - and a lot pf Fringer performers are quite happy to pay their way at UK Festivals , as long as they are not expected to subsidise a series of concerts they are not going to attend !
But the fact is , as stated earlier , NO Festival , NO Fringe !!

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:14 PM

Never thought of it this way, but the oft-mentioned Getaway (and many other folk retreats that have followed in its footsteps) is a fine example of having a hugely successful fringe without the need for a festival. All that's required are some enthusiastic folk, a rentable site and a group of dedicated fanatics who are willing to work their asses off with no financial compensation.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:52 PM

What you want is to rip off people who make the music rather than are bums on seats passively consuming what the great and the good like you hand down to them. Drive the fringe out of festivals and what you have is FMCG trade in music that's a bit like folk music. Make the music maker pay to make the music.

Well, that is not what he said and nor is it anything like anyone I have ever met means.

There is an agreement - certainly by me - that the fringe is a valuable part of a festival and I have said so on numerous occasions.

As I have suggested to Soldier Boy and I make you the same offer.....why not arrange your own camp sites for festivals. Virtually all will have some fields it will be possible to rent. All you have to do then is come to some agreement with the owner about the cost, arrange toilet and shower hire, public liability insurance, security, and so on.........then watch the money roll in for clearly such a facility is in great demand.

Since you are a great fan of Miskin, can I ask since it does not make it clear on the website, if you can buy "just camping" tickets for Miskin?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:43 PM

It's pretty obvious Folksinger meant "when it runs".

And I give some of his post about 20 seconds when the thought police catch up.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:30 PM

Miskin is cancelled..................do keep up.........

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,Folksinger
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:27 PM

Yes, you said it. What you want is to rip off people who make the music rather than are bums on seats passively consuming what the great and the good like you hand down to them. Drive the fringe out of festivals and what you have is FMCG trade in music that's a bit like folk music. Make the music maker pay to make the music.

But there again, that is what you do at your club too, isn't it? Auditions to be a floor singer. You must be so wonderful, I bet you polish your dick before you fuck.

Reminds me of Chester in the late 60s and 70's - there was a "club" like that called the "Mucky Duck". I wrote an add on verse for "Martin"

"Sought folk at the Mucky Duck (fie, etc)
Seems that I was out of luck"

It's why you won't see me at your "club" but you will see me at true festivals like Miskin.

It's as bad as the "Pay to play" ripoffs at the electric venues.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:54 PM

Did I just say that. ooh eerr :-)

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:44 PM

Whats all the problem about.

if a festival says that you must by a season ticket to camp, then thats the name of the game. If you don't like it, find some other accomodation.

I prefer to rent a property. I don't want to hear the crap that people can't afford to do that. I don't work and I can't afford it, but I would rather have my choice.

What I object to is day passes having prioroty over season tickets. That makes my blood boil, especially as it is a lot of money for me to fork out.

Stop your bloody whinging. look at the rules and iether accept them or do something else.


Somebody said earlier, if you don't like it, then do a festival yourself. I agree with that.

There are too many arseholes complaining about what is right and what is wrong, when most organisers put a lot of their free time into these events, only for the arsehole cheap skate whingers to jump on their backs. And that means you Soldier Boy.

Do your own festival, and wait for everybody to have a go at you.

There are some tight fisted gits around and it makes my blood boil to hear them whinge.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:18 PM

A good example of where this really does work is when Moor and Coast provides camping for non-season ticket holders at the Community College during the Whitby Folk Week Festival.

I think Soldier Boy has been very positive here and this is an excellent idea for Shepley Spring Festival to cater for fringe-goers like Soldier Boy, who has been so vehement about the need for this.

No doubt he will go ahead and organise it. Probably not for this year, a bit late, but for next year. There must be a farmer nearby who would want to make extra money from his fields.

I look forward to the possibility of staying on Soldier Boy's campsite at the next Shepley Spring Festival.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 12:18 PM

.....and another thing

festivals that loose money disappear..... most organisers can't afford to remortgage their homes to pay off the depts. Don't you know what a worry it all is trying to make ends meet. Waiting for the ticket sales to come in each day - fretting when they don't. Yes I am a festival organiser - just tell me I'm mean not to let you camp at my festival. And I'll tell you I don't care. You can say what you like to me it alters nothing - I have had to develope a think skin.

You think it's all so simple well I can tell you it's NOT.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 12:14 PM

Why should they lose money GUEST,guest when most camping-only festival goers are quite happy to pay £5-£10 per night per person. This is additional revenue (if they have the space) and not a loss leader.

A good example of where this really does work is when Moor and Coast provides camping for non-season ticket holders at the Community College during the Whitby Folk Week Festival.
Their charges add up to £10 per night per person and no one complains because they are just so grateful that someone has taken the initiative to cater for droves of fringe goers.
Because of their not insubstantial efforts this makes a massive contribution to the well-being of the festival in terms of its overall welcome,acceptance and inclusivity of ALL festival goers.
I really do feel that this makes a big difference and that is all I am trying to say.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:51 AM

.....and another thing

NO FESTIVAL NO FRINGE!!!

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:49 AM

Oh for God's sake - it's time to PAY UP or SHUT UP. If the organisers don't want you you are not going to change their mind by bleating on and on. It's all so simple really - just go to a festival that can afford to give up precious camping space and loose money at the same time.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:45 AM

Folkiedave, when I started this thread I said that some festivals do not seem to encourage or support the fringe and asked why this is so?

Purely as one example I sited Shepley Spring Festival because camping is only available to full weekend ticket holders, leaving the fringe out in the cold. This is not an unfounded or unsupportable allegation, it is a fact and is clearley stated on the festival web site.

Contrary to what you think and are so defensive about I never intended to 'pick on' one particular festival. I only mentioned the Shepley Festival because I had just stumbled across more details of this festival on Mudcat as a new thread.
Also, because of the fact that there was no camping provided for non-ticket holders this seemed to me to be a suitable example to prove one of the points I was making.

Now that I have pointed this out to you would you PLEASE stop being so obsessively defensive about just one particular festival.
I realise that you are a 'stallholder' at this festival so obviously have massive personal investment in it's organisation,planning and promotion. Indeed on the mudcat thread for the Shepley Festival you also appear there as its most ardent and prolific voice and champion.

This is all very commendable but this thread is not, as I have pointed out, all about just one festival. It is about all folk festivals and their varying acceptance or non-acceptance of the fringe and why this should be so.

This is an open discussion which is open to everyone and should not be monopolised and taken over by one individual,who appears,I am sorry to say,to have a very blinkered perspective.

Can we therefore now get back to what this discussion is all about and invite other contributors to have their say.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:26 AM

I am in favour of a fringe.

I am in favour of sessions.

I am in favour of cheap camping for fringegoers if that's what the festival organisers want to do.

I am not in favour of moaning when it is not what they want to do.

I am a stall holder at the Shepley Spring Festival. I declare an interest.

Soldier Boy you started this thread with a bunch of unfounded or unsupportable allegations about the Shepley Spring Festival.

Perhaps your dance team couldn't get an invite?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 11:47 PM

Bile and bullshit springs to mind.
The fringe are always happy to pay the going rate for camping.
They have never been spongers,paracites or free-loaders.
This just shows the true mind set of people who, for their own poisoned reasons, regard the fringe as shit on their shoe.

Thanks GUEST Whitby fringe person you know where I am coming from, I appreciate your comments and like you I hate the poisonous dwarfs that deliberately twist your words and infect a well meaning thread with their bile.
I started this thread in all innocence but I am not suprised by the negative and caustic element that really do believe that 'The Fringe' really are second class citizens and are the scum of the earth.
Without knowing it they just keep on proving my point and insist on showing their true predudicial colours. Such sad people.
Hey Ho!

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: folk1e
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 09:16 PM

You pay for what you get! ...... or is it You get what you pay for!
Eather way the choice is yours, if you do contribute to the fest then not going and therefore depriving the fest of your money will financialy affect the fest! The organisere will take note and compensate the next year!
I do know that "Non Ticket Holders" have been a problem at Saddleworth before now!
Many would be "fringers" do baulk at a realistic price for camping (which are usually far higher than commercial rates).
All will be sorted out in the fullness of time. ...eh?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:05 PM

I shall be at the Holmfirth Festival of Folk the week before.

Loads of potentially good sessions, cheap camping no need to buy any tickets for anything, and loads of free events.

Fantastic.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,whitby fringe person
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:46 PM

It really pisses me off the way that some people have a holier than thou attitude. Lots of festivals have a very healthy fringe and in some cases this is what makes the festival.
Some of you who have complained in this thread I know do not buy season tickets and enjoy the fringe.

Soldier boy means well, don't twist his words.

Its sometimes difficuly to support a festival if they always have the same guests on - how many times will you pay to see the same artist doing the same thing

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: nutty
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:55 AM

What I do find sad is that there are so many people who obviously enjoy and support folk music, yet cannot simply respect different opinions and views, and go and find what suits them best.Why all the animosity?

You had better ask Soldier Boy that question, Rozy. He chose to single out Shepley Spring Festival for criticism rather than make the discussion general.

He seems to have forgotten that he started a thread on a similar topic last year.

Can a mainly 'Fringe' festival work?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:23 AM

I have raved about the Australian National FF before, but it does give a good example of how one can mix concerts and formal events with informal and participatory sessions. I hesitate to call them "fringe" only because these activities are in fact an integral part of the festival, and to attend them you have to have at least a day ticket - the whole festival space is enclosed.

At the NFF you have at any time, throughout the day, apart from all the concerts and formal dance displays:

- at least 4-5 (and in the evening 6-10) informal "tune sessions", with some perhaps favouring different folk styles from Irish to English to bluegrass to Middle Eastern etc
- at least 2 "managed" singarounds
- at least 2 "unmanaged" singarounds
- at least 2 "blackboard" concerts (where people can put their names up for a 15-minute spot
All of the above are indoors. In addition, outdoors you have:
- at least 5-6 informal jamming sessions
- any number of buskers
- huge, fun and tat-free "market"
- a dozen or more food stalls with quality food from all over the globe
- half a dozen cafes with tables where you can have a coffee or a beer and start your own session; nobody minds, and you'll soon be joined by others

The day ticket is £19 - bloody good value for all that, even if you ignore the dozen or so SIMULTANEOUS concerts from noon till 11pm to which it entitles you, with names "big" and "small", but all of high quality.

When I was there, I even found the opportunity to join a Greek music jam with an ensemble from Melbourne! And there was ethnic music from any place you'd care to mention, if you're into that sort of thing. And if you're not, the sessions and singarounds would surely fit the bill.

Do yourselves a favour and book an Easter holiday in Australia, and go to the NFF. At £70 for the full five days (£60 if you book early), half price for teenagers and free for the young'uns, there is no better value festival anywhere, I'd argue; hardly surprising they get 40 to 50 thousand people.

But a very good example of how a festival can accomodate all tastes and still be good value for those only wanting to partake of some of the flavours on offer.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: dozy rozy
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:19 AM

I find this an interesting topic, and have to add my bit.I have often bought festival tickets, despite using them very little.I tend to gravitate towards the fringe as much of it is very informal and can encourage participation, which is what all music, song and dance is about, in my humble opinion.Some of the ticketed entertainment , for me, is a little too passive, and I find greenfield or contained sites a little like a Butlins camp.However, I appreciate that others have different expectations, and not everyone wants to sit in a pub.
What I do find sad is that there are so many people who obviously enjoy and support folk music, yet cannot simply respect different opinions and views, and go and find what suits them best.Why all the animosity?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:31 AM

I don't know if Edinburgh can really be called a fringe anymore - it's bigger than the main festival, and pretty corporate. And overcrowded. I went for the first time last year, and all the braying London media types in the Pleasance Courtyard had me scurrying for shelter.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 08:00 PM

The first post to this thread used Shepley Spring Festival as an example of a festival that was ignoring the "fringe".

Since it has a "fringe" clearly marked on its website with details of the pubs where it will take place I found that difficult to understand.

It accused Shepley Spring Festival of lacking community involvement. There is a lot of community involvement. Also detailed on the website.

It accused Shepley Spring Festival of not providing camping for fringe attenders just like a lot of other festivals. Well at least Soldier Boy got that one right.

Misquoted?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:43 PM

The Downside of Mudcat ! A lot of people either NOT reading , or MIS reading other posts and posting without engaging brain ! It does give a VERY strange impression of what the UK folk scene is all about for our Transpond and other catters !

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:30 PM

Reality check: Tenterden last year, fine muddy field, long wet grass, lots of empty space, no-one asked what side I was with or which booked guest I was (no water and no bogs, but I have a bog in the vardo and can carry water), walking distance from the sings/sessions if I only took one guitar, the mandolin and the bodhran. Like anyone else I put my quids in the tins whenever asked, and I paid my whack for the camping field. Hell, I'd have paid more to camp in that field than the real campsite out of town that I used the year before. Officially I had to be a guest or with a side: unofficially it was open house.

Only two downsides to that Tenterden (three if you count getting out of the boggy field).

The upstairs sinaground was even more hushed and orderly than usual, and the loony kiddies with the tunable didge and who impounded my guitar (leaving me to play mandolin only) were not there for the Sunday afternoon session. The year before that session wasn't folk but it was massive fun. On the other hand the sea-song mass-sing 2006 was both huge fun and informative.

No winges! And people seemed to be liking what was occurring.

Yes, I do quite a lot of miserable songs. Almost all of them trad (or ish). I'm not a singer songwhiner, and I don't sing my diary.

Many festivals would be vastly inferior without the fringe. Take Sweeps. 15 years ago there was acoustic music in every pub (and on every corner) up and down the High Street (and, miracuously Ben McManigan in all of them simultaneously too), and the Eagle was heaving to real music. Now the pubs are full of electric crap and country, and the festival has lost its soul.

Take Tenterden. What would it be without the three or four sessions going on simultaneously? What will it be next year without the 8 Bells?

Campus festivals are not the same as street and town festivals. I don't expect a daytime fringe at Ely, and I don't expect to be on the campus without paying. But the nights there, playing hunt the capo after 2 bottles of Chateau-Neuf-Du-Pape (ask Bardon, I have elided two stories here) are great - although not fringe.

What makes Edinburgh? Not really a music festival, I know, but it's the fringe.

Sidders - ask Bardon: it's the fringe.

Broadstairs - losing it without the fringe.

Cambridge - don't make me laugh. Whatever happened to main stage 6? Some oldies will know.

The more I rant, the madder it makes me (and the whisky helps). Folk music is not bums on seats listening to the deus ex macchina. It's the music people make, their interpretation of their cultural heritage (er, not all music people make, before we get on to horses again).

Go to concerts if you want to. Don't expect me to subsidise them or the flipping Royal Opera House. I'm not the parasite here. The leech is someone else.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:23 PM

Aw come on Soldier Boy, don't spoil our fun ! He's so easy to wind up.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Soldier boy
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 06:53 PM

It's 'The Folkiedave Show' taking over this thread.
Please give other Mudcatters a chance Dave and also please refrain from continually miss-quoting and twisting what people have said to suit your rather embittered views and attitude.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 06:48 PM

the previous incarnations of Sidmouth. The result? The townspeople didn't like it, ("full of people who have just come to make some money and not spend any") and the folkies didn't like it" ("too big/commercial and/or impersonal")

I think those are both cases of false festival memory syndrome, which have to be challenged, otherwise people starr beieveing them.

Especially the first - yes there were some townspeoplemwho didn't like teh festuval, but they were almoist certainly in a minority. And festival goers grumbling like that would almost always go on to admit that they loved it, as evidenced by massive recidivism.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 04:32 PM

The answer is, basically, yes.

If you don't want to pay to go to the 'concert' events, you are not the first priority of the organisers, like it or not.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 03:09 PM

You haven't been, perhaps, to the Philadephia Folk Festival. It's big, and been there for a long time. We have a wide assortment of others, including Bluegrass Festivals(which can be a lot like stock car races)and blues festivals--

A lot of festivals(like the Smithsonian Folklife Festival) are free, and run with support and cooperation of a variety of public and private institutions(the Smithonian cooperates with a number of related regional festivals)--some are great, some, well--

However, my bias runs toward community festivals, at churches, for instance, where music is a part of the tradition of that particular community--where, say, the band plays the participants know from their own culture, dances that they have always done, traditional food etc.

My feeling is that syncretic "festivals" tend toward becoming just another roadside attraction--special events that take on a life of their own, a lot like water parks-

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:10 PM

Let me make that readable.

I dislike festivals--you are herded, fenced in, and tended in a fashion that encourages the worst sort of crowd crowd behavior (sorry, "behaviour"), and musical performances are offered up in the worst possible setting

Fine - dont go would be my first answer.

Secondly which festival have you been to - that sounds more like a pop festival to me. I have been to virtually all of the larger and a number of the smaller folk festivals and I don't recognise that description.

The worst thing, however, is high ticket costs and the mechanics of security shut out community involvement--which is what, supposedly, makes it "folk" rather than commercial entertainment

When you say "community involvement" precisely which community are you talking about?

Clearly it is not the folk community since they are at the festival otherwise it would not be there.

Clearly it isn't the local community, all festival organisers work extremely hard to get the local community involved at various levels.

So when you say community involvement of whom are you speaking?

Could it possible be the community that hangs around folk festivals without buying a ticket and sits in the pubs playing to themselves with no thought for anyone else?

Just asking.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Carol
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:01 PM

There is also the definiton of a festival, I'hve started 2 'song and music' weekends i.e. DIY no guests, I wouldn't have thought of trying to join the Association and also would imagine that I would have been told to go away if I had tried!

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:56 AM

I think starting a festival just so you could get free tickets to other festival is a daft way of doing things and believe me - there are easier ways of getting festival tickets. Joining a dance team is a lot easier for example.

If I went to a folk club and suggested that I didn't like the main artist but I liked the floor singers and therefore could I come in for free and I would go out when the main artist came on the organiser would look at me as if I was barking. And he or she would be correct to do so.

The remarkable thing about these people who go around being colourful and entertaining us all with their guitars and songs of angst is that they only ever seem to do it when there is a festival on that someone else has organised and someone else is paying for in the way of purchasing tickets.

Let's take the example of Tenterden which Richard quoted earlier.

Instead of whinging and saying you have to buy a season ticket merely to camp, why not come the following week?

Since you don't want to pay for anything in the way of concerts but just come along and play in the pubs I cannot see why you don't do just that.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Carol
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:48 AM

Probably or even a handshake!

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:38 AM

I love the idea of the Association of Festival Organisers. Is there a badge or a tie ?

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:00 AM

"If you start your own festival you can join the Assoc. of Festival Organisers and get free tickets from all the other people in the club or so I believe."

This is a facility that's provided at the discretion of the festivals involved. I wouldn't recommend starting a festival just to get the free tickets - I think someobody was rumbled not that long ago...

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Carol
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:45 AM

If you start your own festival you can join the Assoc. of Festival Organisers and get free tickets from all the other people in the club or so I believe.
Personally when I was working I paid for season tickets which often I didn't use, also my attitude was that I wouldn't be a steward to use up valuable festival singaround time/end up in a concert venue that I wouldn't enjoy!
Now that I'm retired and disabled the former still applies and I don't know how welcome I would be as a steward, who can't climb stairs or run after people!
I reckon my best option would be to join a singing group! Still couldn't climb stairs!!

Truth is I'm hoping to get to about 20 weekend sessions/festivals this year some are nearly free and none would break the bank, and at least I have plenty of choice.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Scoville
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:25 AM

Amen.

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:24 AM

Talk about spoiling your weekend--try waking up with your van surrounded by sewage

Look on the bright side - at least you weren't one of those poor buggers in a tent :-)

Subject: RE: The Fringe - second class citizens??
From: Scoville
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:53 AM

In the U.S., at least around here, I don't think it's usually so much a case of discouraging cars as simply not having any place to put them, either at all or without causing a major nuisance to residents (festivalgoers blocking driveways, squatting on private property, etc.). One urban festival I attended several years ago had the foresight to use downtown parking garages (unoccupied since it was on a weekend) for a $5 a day parking fee and then provide shuttle buses to the festival itself, which was not a camping venue. But this was a very large festival organized with input from the city, with nationally-known acts, not a small regional or local deal.   Tickets were not cheap and I'm sure they didn't make much off the whole thing the first year. That kind of thing would have been impossible for independent festival-holders.

Even at camping venues, there is simply a limit to how many people a given space can manage. I've heard of festivals where the wastewater systems were overloaded because there were so many more people than the grounds were intended to hold. Talk about spoiling your weekend--try waking up with your van surrounded by sewage.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:40 AM

Not all festivals are like that. Some are more community oriented, like Broadstairs, for example.

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:27 AM

I dislike festivals--you are herded, fenced in, and tended in a fashion that encourages the worst sort of crowd crowd behavior (sorry, "behaviour"), and musical performances are offered up in the worst possible setting--

The worst thing, however, is high ticket costs and the mechanics of security shut out community involvement--which is what, supposedly, makes it "folk" rather than commercial entertainment--

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: The Barden of England
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:08 AM

Like you MGAS I like the weekend festivals and am quite happy to pay for the tickets, but like you when it comes to the week long festivals then that's another ball game. That's when I prefer to go see who I want to and pay at the door/buy a ticket at the festival office, or alternatively put money into the collecting tin at my session, or at someone elses like Leadfingers session for instance. My wife on the other hand likes to steward and get the season ticket, so we're both happy. Many of the festivals include in their programme session venues, so it seems to me they like to see the fringe happening. The situation as it is now works fine for me.
John Barden

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: My guru always said
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 08:39 AM

S'Funny, I spend almost every weekend at Festivals and buy tickets for all of them except Sidmouth, but then I'm an MBS & put lots of money in the collecting tins, especially when they fine me for being myself! Sometimes I even try to pay for tickets to Festivals that book me :-)

I spend the majority of my time at Festivals enjoying the Fringe and don't object at all to the ticket price. I use all the facilities built in to the price and mostly choose not to go to the concerts.

But if I were to look at going away for a weekend, paying accomodation, theatre or concert tickets etc I would not be able to do it for the same price as a festival ticket. Essentially for me, buying a Festival ticket is a very cheap weekend away, doing what I love to do, in good company - can't moan about that, can I?

Subject: RE: THE FRINGE - second class citizens??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 06:30 AM

Let me say right at the beginning of this I like sessions and fringes. love to join in singing and have no objections to them. I do have doubts about people who want to camp on a site organised by a festival for its season ticket holders for the price of camping.

BUT:::::::::::

Some highly successful festivals of various hues do not have fringes.

One of the best organised festivals with some of the finest artists I have been to recently was Brampton Live. No fringe.

As far as notices are concerned, you should get out more. Some pubs in towns where festivals are held do have notices saying precisely that. I happen to think they are wrong to do so, but I also admit I have been grateful at times for a pub to have a quiet drink in, where someone is not singing their teenage diary from thirty years ago.

Believe it or not, not everyone likes folk music, not everyone likes their pubs being taken over by a bunch of characters who see themselves as adding colour, others see them as needing a haircut/some new clothes etc.

Not everyone likes music played by a number of people who have just met each other some of whom are not sure which key a tune is played in but will still play in one they like or know.

And not even lovers of folk music like people who have just bought a bodhran and insist on playing it. In fact I personally run a mile from most people who can play one since they invariably want to play it at inappropriate moments, usually when someone is singing a quiet ballad.

The festival with the best fringe I ever went to was the previous incarnations of Sidmouth. The result? The townspeople didn't like it, ("full of people who have just come to make some money and not spend any") and the folkies didn't like it" ("too big/commercial and/or impersonal")I happen to think they were both wrong - but I could see where they were coming from.

But it had a great fringe and probably still does, though I haven't been since it changed hands so to speak. And one evening my wife and I went into the pub fifty yards from the Fish and Chip Shop which had a notice saying "No music".

It was full of season ticket holders.