BS: Best Canadian ever

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:21 PM

"Well, neither John Prine nor Jesus were Canadians"

Bee ... never said they were (did I?) ... the quote was an analogy to LH's statement ... "Not one Canadian soldier died at Vimy Ridge to preserve your freedom or mine"

Yes LH .... you further interpreted my analogy in your following statement "but I don't think of his death as a "ransom" for other people's sins"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:32 PM

Oh, they should be honoured, Daylia, no question about that, as should all brave soldiers. I think that their thoughts were probably similar to the thoughts in the minds of all the young soldiers who trooped off to war for the fighting nations in WWI.

My grandmother was a young woman living in Vienna when WWI broke out. She said that the whole country was filled with an absolute avalanche of patriotic fervour at the time. People poured out into the city streets to cheer the young Austrian soldiers who were marching off to war. They showered them with flowers, tears, embraces, and cheers. They waved flags. She said it was like the most giant celebration. There didn't appear to be one ordinary person in Austria-Hungary who did not believe that the war was being fought for the noblest of reasons, to defeat the Serbian rebellion, for defence of the homeland against the Russians and Italians, and against other enemies who had to be defeated...and would be...and in short order......for the sake of peace, freedom, liberty, and national survival!

This was the mood prevalent among Austro-Hungarians, French, Germans, Russians, Serbs, Italians, and British soldiers and civilians...and later among Americans when they belatedly went off to war as well.

Young men have a number of reasons for willingly serving in a war and risking their lives.

1. normal patriotism
2. they want to "do their bit" (like the others)
3. they want to challenge the odds and become "men" (gain self-respect and self-confidence and maybe even some glory)
4. they want to "save their country" from a foreign threat and "protect their homes and families"
5. they don't want to be seen as cowards or wimps
6. they figure it will be an exciting adventure
7. it gives them something to do
8. it's a job, you get paid, you get a uniform and training, and you get to handle advanced weaponry...all this is pretty impressive to a boy just coming out of his adolescence
9. it's your "duty" to serve your country
10. for some, it becomes a professional military career...if there is a family tradition of doing that, then that will be a very strong influence.

Governments know this, and they use all of the above factors to motivate the young to go out and slaughter one another.

In my grandmother's case, her society lost that war. Their monarchy was destroyed and their nation sundered into fragments. Their economy was devastated. Their money became worthless. In the final year of the war people had gone beyond eating their pets and anything else they could scrounge, and were eating rats. In the light of that, it made a mockery of the innocent patriotic fervour of 1914.

People in the victorious nations tend to be shielded from the sort of giant wake-up call that hits people in the defeated nations after a war, and it's easy for them to later believe grandiose propaganda that tells them stuff like..."If it wasn't for---------(whatever)--------you'd all be speaking German!"...and...."our boys died so you could live in peace and freedom".

I note that no population in any conquered country anywhere in modern times has changed their native language following a defeat in a major war.... ;-D Nor has peace ever been anything but temporary...

As for freedom, it's a relative thing. Some are indeed freer than others. Most are not as free as they might honestly wish to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: *daylia*
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:51 PM

Well, the Unknown Soldier was.

The article/quote is courtesy of Public Relations Office, Dept of National Defence. Hence, I suppose, the propoganda . Glad you pointed this out, LH, and thanks for posting your historical insights too.

The "gave their lives for peace and freedom in Canada" bit did sound more than just a tad "off" to me as well, but I was willing to let it go because I was seeing the Unknown Soldier as a "gift". And with a gift, it's the thought that counts. So, what were the thoughts, the intentions of the 116,000 Canadians who died in active service, in international conflict during the last century?

Or, rather, what were they trained to believe they were dying for??

I can only guess at that, as I have never served in the military. Still, I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt, and to be honoured for living and dying with integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: Bee
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:09 PM

Well, neither John Prine nor Jesus were Canadians.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:47 PM

I always figured in Jesus' case that it was what he lived for that was important...

...but I don't think of his death as a "ransom" for other people's sins.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: number 6
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:44 PM

.. and "Jesus Christ died for nothin' I suppose."

I thank J. Prine for that line.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:25 PM

"his tomb ensures that the 116,000 soldiers who gave their lives for peace and freedom in Canada will never be forgotten"

Codswallop, Daylia! They did NOT give their lives for peace and freedom in Canada. If the Germans and Austro-Hungarians had managed to win the First World War it would not have affected peace and freedom in Canada (or in the UK either) one iota. It simply would have caused a temporary readjustment of some kind to the general balance of several great powers in Europe (Germany, the UK, France, Russia, Italy, Austria-Hungary). France would have gone on being typically French, just as they did after losing the previous Franco-Prussian War. The British would have gone on running the British overseas empire, not much the worse for wear. The Germans would have avoided a humiliating social and financial collapse, their royal family would have continued governing in a constitutional monarchy, and the Nazis would never have come to power at all, and the Second World War would probably never even have happened. Russia would probably have still have had its communist revolution around 1917 and would have become politically divorced from western Europe. Austria-Hungary would have tottered on into an uncertain future in the 20s and 30s, probably facing more separatist movements in the unstable Balkans. Italy would have remained relatively the same as before, possibly losing a teeny bit of territory around its border with Austria.

The newly separates nations of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austra, Hungary, and Yugoslavia would not have come into existence at all after WWI, but would have remained as integral parts of Germany and Austria-Hungary.

The world, in fact, might have been considerably better off if Germany and Austria had NOT lost WWI, because it would not have sowed the seeds for starting WWII, a much more destructive conflict.

So who died to preserve peace and freedom in Canada? NO one.

Soldiers do NOT usually die to preserve anyone's peace or freedom. They just think they do, because everyone tells them so. They die, albeit unwittingly, to serve the purposes of great industrial/military/political machines which stupidly stumble into fighting each other now and then because they have mutually conflicting interests and not a terribly firm grip on higher moral concepts...such as "live and let live" and "let's share the cookie".

Not one Canadian soldier died at Vimy Ridge to preserve your freedom or mine. Not one. And it doesn't matter how many times people say they did, and repeat that old cliche...they didn't. They died innocently as pawns in the game of competing empires.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: Bee
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:38 PM

Meself, I for one am grateful for PET's metric system, given I've had several jobs where small measurements were necessary, and fractionated inches would have been a huge pain.

However, the US does need some enlightened leader to bring them round to metric - maybe a religious leader might point out that if God wanted us to use yards, feet, and inches, he'd have given us twelve fingers instead of ten. ;-p

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:51 AM

Yes, just think - if it wasn't for PET, we'd still be using the same system of weights and measures as our largest trading partner.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:27 AM

Jan Arden has not been mentioned (great cdn Music Category) But overall I would have to go with Trudeau. He changed our country in a very profound way and I thank him for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:00 AM

(Yes, Margaret Atwood is/was Canadian. Fine writer, of course.)

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:58 AM

The "Unknown Soldier" is/are one of the greatest gifts Canada's given the rest of the world ....

He died during one of the crucial battles of the First World War, and in May, 2000, his remains were retrieved from Vimy Ridge and reburied at the base of the National War Memorial in Ottawa. Though his history is �unknown,� his tomb ensures that the 116,000 soldiers who gave their lives for peace and freedom in Canada will never be forgotten.

And, musically speaking, lets not forget the lovely, talented and inspiring Sarah McLachlan or the fiesty, tell-it-exactly-like-it-is Alanis Morissette.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:30 AM

My Dad....though as a Newfoundlander he became Canadian by default.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: bubblyrat
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:35 AM

Lots of names I don"t recognise here, but then I am English !! But nobody mentions Margaret Attwood here ( The Handmaid"s Tale, etc.etc.)----she is/was Canadienne, surely ??

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 08:23 PM

oops

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 08:22 PM

Shania Twang! What a woooooman! Anne Murray! What a ... well, you know where this is going.... straight back to the fact that this is not Canuck Idol.

C'mon, this is about who has done the most and sacrificed to most for this, our country, our community.... surely it's http://www.sassjordan.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 08:09 PM

When I referred to Anne Murray as the 'old' sweetheart, I meant that Celine was the 'new' sweetheart. They're both pretty sad if you ask me. At least Shania is not embarassing.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:21 PM

"Celine's too bony."

As the old saying goes "the closer to the bone, the sweeter the meat"

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:08 PM

By the way, I say that with the greatest respect - I'm not crazy about her style of music, but I really admire her for her achievement, and for her sensible outlook.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:00 PM

Re: Shania: I'm afraid there aren't too many of us fellas that wouldn't keep her ... Course, she'd be quite a handful - speaking of C&W, does the song "I've Got a Tiger By the Tail" come to mind?

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: Bee
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:55 PM

Re Shania: my husband sez definitely he'd keep her, but Celine's too bony.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,Wayne and Schuster
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:31 PM

Hey, I guess everbody's pet.....Ju-u-liette is out of the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 03:58 PM

Okay then, what about ol' Shania? Take her or leave her?

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: bobad
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 03:55 PM

And please take Celine with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:46 PM

I was hoping nobody would say Anne Murray. If you mention the old sweetheart, you have to mention Celine Dion.

I'll leave now :>0

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 09:59 AM

Anne Murray because she proved to us that you could have a great career and stay in Canada. Also an awesome singer.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:51 AM

Rusty was always half in the bag!!! Hehehee! I love it! Look up, waaaaay up. Magic to a tot.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 08:08 PM

Tm Horton for the hardest bodychecks and the tastiest doughnuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 01:23 PM

And that Rusty was always half in the bag ...

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,kids of Degrassi High
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 12:59 PM

Right on Casey and Finnegan. Ernie Coombs rocks. The Friendly Giant is a knob.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: black walnut
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 11:52 AM

Yes, Emily Carr! Yes Alex Colville AND Mary Pratt! Yes The Friendly Giant!

What a great country this is.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,Casey and Finnegan
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 10:25 PM

Screw you Jerome & Rusty. The winner is Ernie Coombs by a kilometer.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,Jerome & Rusty
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 08:26 PM

The Friendly Giant

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:28 AM

That is so true. Another painter whose works you must see in the original to feel their power is Alex Colville. The kind of power that is in the original paintings of these two is staggering.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: Bee
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:21 AM

In that case, Emily Carr deserves a nod - she was, as well as a great painter, instrumental in initiating a breakthrough for women artists, in that some well-established male artists recognised her tremendous talent instead of writing her off as an eccentric Sunday painter. I think as well, she brought positive attention to the great art of the Haida.

Anyone who hasn't seen her work in person is missing a moving and awe inspiring vision of West Coast forests.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,Hi Lo
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 11:14 AM

Robertson Davies and Alistair MacCleod, the two best writers Canada has ever produced. It seems that people in the arts are seldom considered for these designations. If they were we would be able to list some of the great artists and writers of the 20th century. Too bad we are so politically focused when we consider greatness.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 07:24 AM

Let's not forget Liona Boyd, the FIrst Lady of the Guitar. Liona was one of the first women.. or perhaps THE first woman (?) ... to venture bravely into the traditionally "male" world of classical guitar.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 11:01 PM

That's more like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: number 6
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 10:32 PM

Alden Nowlan.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 01:04 PM

Thanks for mentioning Loreena McKennit! She's marvelous.

Another opinion in. My dachshund, Finnegan, says he is the greatest Canadian ever. He's been saying that ever since I can remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 11:07 AM

Meself. Why am I never mentioned?

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 10:47 AM

Loreena McKennit, why is she never mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: Dickey
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 01:33 PM

Robbie Robertson !

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:48 PM

Dai Vernon

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 06:35 PM

I was proud to get 8 out of 10 but have to admit it was mostly a process of elimination.

I did not attend public school in Canada but I did attend a Canadian University. History was required. It wasn't easy to learn Canadian history in 3 months!

I'm scared to try the Canadian Women quiz.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:19 PM

Gordon Lightfoot is most definitely Canadian, ib48, and he wrote a few hundred great songs. He was born and grew up in Orillia, Ontario, Canada...my home town for the past 22 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:18 PM

Agnes MacPhail...MP.

If only there was a female categorey!

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:59 PM

Is Gordon Lightfoot canadian,if he is i nominate him for thst wonderful song If you could read my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: Mooh
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:50 PM

Shawnadithit...last of the Beothuk people.

Eunice Williams...Puritan by birth, Mohawk by choice.

Emily Carr...artist among many other things.

Agnes MacPhail...MP.

Laura Secord...American by birth, Canadian heroine nonetheless.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Best Canadian ever
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:48 PM

No one has mentioned John Kenneth Galbraith. A Canadian economist--but educated at Berkeley. Socialist, basically, and IMO, brilliant.

I would hesitate to choose one person from the many names people have offered above. I hope we have more like them coming down the road.