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03 May 07 - 02:56 AM (#2041963) Subject: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: GUEST,Bob An eminent South African historian believes he has stumbled on the identity of Jack the Ripper. Charles van Onselen said at first he wasn't sure he wanted to publicize the conclusions he drew when he noticed parallels in the century-old, unsolved Ripper case and the background of Joseph Silver, who terrorized women as "King of the Pimps" in Johannesburg. "I was left with a choice: I have got intelligent speculation, which I think is pretty long way down the track to proving that this guy was the Ripper. Do I include or exclude it? "If I include it, it buggers up the book and people get excited for the wrong reasons. If I exclude it and a really sharp professional spots it ... I had to explore this possibility," he said, sitting in his tree-filled garden, about 3 miles from where Silver reigned, in a city still regarded as one of the most crime-ridden in the world. The publicity around van Onselen's "The Fox and The Flies: The World of Joseph Silver, Racketeer and Psychopath", published in April, has made much of Silver being Jack the Ripper, the notorious Victorian serial killer who murdered at least five East London prostitutes in 1888. But van Onselen, an acclaimed biographer who specializes in South Africa's criminal history and who took nearly three decades to research the book, only makes his Ripper case in the final 25th chapter, written in the last 36 months. While the book has been well-received, reaction from "Ripperologists" has been skeptical as van Onselen makes his case on circumstantial evidence. To his doubters the author said: "How many coincidences do you want to mount up in your mind simultaneously until you start saying this is a real possibility?" Scores of people have been accused of the Ripper murders, but no one has ever been proven guilty and London police put the number of most likely suspects at just four, among them a poor Whitechapel resident named Kosminski who, like Silver, was a Polish Jew. At the time, Londoners speculated the killer was Jewish, leading to fears of an anti-Jewish backlash. Van Onselen believes Silver fits the psychological profile of the Whitechapel murderer and he places his subject at the center of the scene of the Ripper murders. The evidence that Silver was in Whitechapel at the time of the Ripper murders includes the birth of his daughter there, van Onselen said. As pimp and brothel keeper, Silver would have been familiar with the prostitutes working in the area, van Onselen said. Silver, who was born in Poland, arrived in Johannesburg in 1898 fresh from a stint in Sing Sing for burglary and a stay in London a decade earlier. Shortly after arriving in Johannesburg, Silver set up a string of cafes, cigar shops and police-protected brothels. Silver was litigious, wrote bold letters to newspapers and had an array of mocking aliases, van Onselen said. Jack the Ripper is believed to have taunted police with brazen letters to the papers. Van Onselen, the son of a detective, tracked Silver across Africa, the Americas and Europe, "staggered by how mobile this guy was." In the end, Silver was executed as a spy in Poland in 1918. Van Onselen points to similarities between the subject of his book and the Whitechapel murderer, both psychopaths with a deep hatred of women. Silver had bitter, violent relationships with women all his life. "In terms of a template for this person, in terms of age, personality, mental illness, pattern for rest of life, this is the best fit there has ever been," he said. |
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03 May 07 - 03:12 AM (#2041972) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: The Fooles Troupe Here we go again - another bloody anonymous Troll about another endless topic... and non-musical... (puts fingers in ears) La lalalalalalala la la! |
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03 May 07 - 03:40 AM (#2041985) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: MBSLynne All the things said above about Silver could equally be said about Kosminski and Kosminski actually lived in the same street as one of the victims. He died in a mental hospital btw, and the report on him there spoke of a pathological hatred of women. No nearer to the true answer I think Love Lynne |
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03 May 07 - 03:42 AM (#2041987) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Liz the Squeak Patricia Cornwell did a far better and credible job on identifying the Ripper. The report above has been lifted wholesale from various news outlets but give very little reasoning behind the allegation. This site gives an account of Mr Silver - very convenient that he 'never talked about his London years'... LTS |
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03 May 07 - 04:06 AM (#2041993) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: The Fooles Troupe "No nearer to the true answer I think" As I said... more bad research bent to fit somebody's conspiracy theory so they can make money... "I bought the wrong bananas, when I went down to the shop, I bought the wrong bananas, but the man told me they're not!" |
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03 May 07 - 04:09 AM (#2041996) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Liz the Squeak Weren't the taunting 'Jack the Ripper' letters to the police proven to be a hoax? So how could it have been Silver?! LTS |
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03 May 07 - 04:17 AM (#2042002) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: The Fooles Troupe (puts fingers in ears) La lalalalalalala la la! |
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03 May 07 - 05:00 AM (#2042025) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Folkiedave Walter Sickert |
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03 May 07 - 05:22 AM (#2042039) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: GUEST Foolestroupe, Possibly you could put fingers around your throat and do us all a favour. Or take you ball and run home. |
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03 May 07 - 05:35 AM (#2042046) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: skipy We can all see where this one is going! might as well stop it now! Skipy |
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03 May 07 - 08:32 AM (#2042150) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Ruth Archer Walter Sickert my arse. Cornewell's theories were laughable - that programme she did about her "research" was a parody of itself. |
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03 May 07 - 09:06 AM (#2042185) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Rapparee Look. Okay. I did it. I'm Jack the Ripper. I confess. I'm also Jesse Woodson James and Spring-Heeled Jack. And Giles de Rai. And I built the Garden of Eden, it was in the year of One. And I'm also Elizabeth Bathory. And Liz the Squeak. Yes, I did it. |
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03 May 07 - 11:07 AM (#2042301) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: GUEST,Paul Burke I've told you before. It was Florence Nightingale. |
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03 May 07 - 11:18 AM (#2042312) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Bill D If you can stretch a theory far enough, you can sell a few books. I think I'll accuse Queen Victoria's footman and see how far I get. |
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03 May 07 - 11:28 AM (#2042326) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Mrrzy Why not Sickert? I have to admit not believing Cornwall since she never included any contrary evidence, and gave interpretations before giving data, which shows she didn't trust the reader to come (jump?) to the same conclusions... but she did raise some pretty good arguments. |
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03 May 07 - 11:49 AM (#2042347) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Ruth Archer She started with a theory and set out to prove it, which is an arse-about-face way to approach research. I didn't read the book, I saw the accompanying television programme, in which she proved not to have the first idea about how to conduct non-biased, academically credible research. It really was one of the funnier things I've ever seen, because she took herself VERY seriously, yet some of the "evidence" she presented was frankly laughable. "Look, he painted some creepy pictures and he had a bit of a nasty face. And he was alive then! I reckon he did it." Perhaps she comes across as more credible in print. |
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03 May 07 - 11:53 AM (#2042354) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Rapparee My great-great Aunt Tilly was alive then, too. So was Ulysses Grant. So was Lewis Carroll. So was Queen Vicky. You don't suppose that it was Vicky, do you? Driven mad by her sorrow for losing Al and with unrequited lust for John Browne? Ahoy! Methinks a new theory is in view!!! |
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03 May 07 - 02:10 PM (#2042494) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Folkiedave She wasn't the first to identify Walter Sickert. Stephen Knight did it in 1976. |
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03 May 07 - 03:28 PM (#2042568) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Liz the Squeak And he was alive then! I reckon he did it." That's basically the same evidence as this South African historian is using to prove it was Silver. Rapaire, you can't be me, otherwise your feet would be hurting and you'd have a hundred hairpins digging into your head. LTS |
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03 May 07 - 03:33 PM (#2042571) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: MMario The evidence that Silver was in Whitechapel at the time of the Ripper murders includes the birth of his daughter there hmmmmm- this is mentioned like it is strong evidence of his presence? Last I knew, and please correct me if I am wrong, the presence of the (putative) father was not necessary for a birth to occur. In fact, I believe there are family trees where several children have been born without the "father" ever even being in the same country as as the mother from prior to the conception of the first to the birth of the last. |
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03 May 07 - 06:35 PM (#2042706) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: The Fooles Troupe "Possibly you could put fingers around your throat and do us all a favour." A fervent wish by many of us to all the anonymous GUEST trolls harping on non-music related subjects. Glad to see that most of the rest of the posters here have gotten into the spirit in which such nonsensical threads should be treated. |
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04 May 07 - 04:36 PM (#2043440) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: InOBU On a serrious note, Patricia Cornwell gives evidence in court in the US as an expert witness.That is rather scary. When I read her book on Sickert, what struck me is that it was all evidence that Sickert wanted folks to believe he was the ripper. She does a great job proving he wrote the phony letters and did so through out his life, but does nothing to prove he committed any of the murders. The book needed a defense lawyer for ballance. DEAR Foolstroupe... do have a pint here in the corner on me... no harm in the discussion here... perhaps someone might post a murder ballad about the ripper, anyone know any? Well, be nice to each other all... lor |
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04 May 07 - 05:39 PM (#2043499) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: GUEST,Blindlemonsteve Oh my god foolestroupe, i actually agree with you. who really cares..this thread is non musical, and lets face it,and 140 years on, it doesnt matter a shit who Jack the Ripper was.? IT HAPPENED GET OVER IT!!! |
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05 May 07 - 02:06 AM (#2043688) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Liz the Squeak Same goes for the Alamo then... GET OVER IT! LTS |
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05 May 07 - 02:07 AM (#2043690) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Liz the Squeak And JFK..... LTS |
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05 May 07 - 03:17 AM (#2043701) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: chazkratz JFK is one I refuse to get over: The country is still suffering from that one--and Bobby's. Chaz |
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05 May 07 - 06:30 AM (#2043802) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Liz the Squeak I had a great great something uncle who lived in Poplar in the 1880's, should I be looking askance at him? Mind you.. our family ran more to arson than murder. LTS |
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06 May 07 - 06:34 AM (#2044470) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: The Fooles Troupe I bought the wrong bananas... la lalalalalala la ... |
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11 Jun 08 - 05:29 AM (#2363036) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: JohnInKansas You Don't Know Jack A new museum exhibition opens the case file on Jack the Ripper—and affords a grim look at the London of the time—a city made for murder. Sophie Grove Newsweek Web Exclusive Updated: 5:21 PM ET Jun 9, 2008 ... ... For the first time ever, amateur detectives can access the original evidence in the case. An unmatched new show at the Museum of London, "Jack the Ripper and the East End" (through November 2008 at the museum's new Docklands branch), lays out the entire case file. Its displays of photographs, police reports and curios—including letters the Ripper allegedly sent the police—fill more than 6,000 square feet. "There has never been a serious exhibition that allows the public to see the original material," says curator Alex Werner. "We place the murders in a historical context and let the artifacts speak for themselves." /quote Some additional description of the exhibit, along with some "social commentary" at the link. A "photo gallery" linked from the (Newsweek) site seemed a little lame to me, but might also be of interest for anyone interested in visiting the exhibit. John |
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11 Jun 08 - 06:03 AM (#2363044) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: GUEST,Volgadon Shouldn't we read the book first, before accepting or dismissing the claims? Going on a few lines of a review isn't wise. |
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11 Jun 08 - 08:48 AM (#2363119) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Big Al Whittle Unfair, well maybe .......but the reason God gave us powers of discriminaton was to safeguard us against complete crap. Its a bit like a book purporting to prove the earth is flat. Experience informs us this book was probably:- 1) written by an utter twat 2) written for the money I could be wrong. It might be the wisest and most enlightening book ever written on this much written about subject. However the great weight of probability rests more or less exclusively in the 'utter twat' explanation zone, in my opinion. |
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11 Jun 08 - 09:05 AM (#2363139) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Rapparee Well, every author hopes to make a little money off a book. Or, better, a lot of money. |
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11 Jun 08 - 09:06 AM (#2363140) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Georgiansilver Eric Bromyard was a well known figure at the time of the ripper murders and his doctor proclaimed him to the 'Bobbies' as a psychopath but he was never interviewed with a view to establishing if he could have been the 'ripper'. He lived on his fortune so had no need to work and had all the time in the world to commit murder. He used prostitutes frequently and was known to be angry at contracting syphilis....a good motive for revenge eh?. He was named by the prostitutes as being a frequent partaker of their services and was known to be 'rough' with his advances..but still he was never interviewed...I believe we will never know or prove who the ripper was as there are too many gaps in the history of the time to make a good assessment. Best wishes, Mike. |
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11 Jun 08 - 07:01 PM (#2363780) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: McGrath of Harlow It does seem a pretty odd thing to be concerned about at this date. |
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11 Jun 08 - 07:05 PM (#2363784) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Peace Jack the Ripper? Hell, I thought he was the Piper's son. |
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11 Jun 08 - 07:11 PM (#2363789) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Peace Or the guy shacked up with Jill . . . . |
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11 Jun 08 - 08:43 PM (#2363843) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Rumncoke When Kosminski was committed to an asylum the police stopped their intensive patrolling of Whitechapel almost at once. Just as soon as the rotas were revised. The police had come under much criticism for their not having caught the Ripper, so they muct have been pretty confident that there would not be further murders. |
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11 Jun 08 - 09:52 PM (#2363865) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: JohnInKansas Very strange. Thread died and was untouched for more than a year. Reopened as "closest to subject" to avoid creating another new thread, to report a MUSEUM EXHIBIT currently open in London(?) in case anyone close enough to visit might be interested in the exhibit. Everybody wants to talk about a book that was talked to death a year ago. ????? Should'a just started a new thread, I guess. John |
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12 Jun 08 - 01:42 AM (#2363955) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity It was Kelly Ripa |
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12 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM (#2364261) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Teribus From WLD: "Experience informs us this book was probably:- 1) written by an utter twat 2) written for the money" Priceless, absolutely priceless. Keep 'em comming Al Brilliant!!! |
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13 Jun 08 - 01:20 AM (#2364787) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie Rapaire: Yes, but did you kill the Lindbergh baby and sink the Titanic? A real bad-*** would have done those things.... Wee: What, it isn't flat? Knock me over with a feather! CC |
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13 Jun 08 - 05:38 AM (#2364858) Subject: RE: BS: Historian claims to ID Jack the Ripper From: Big Al Whittle theres a story that Lenny Bruce started his gig in Chicago with the line, Bobby Franks was a fink. He had it coming...... (a reference to the Leopold/Loeb case) A barbed comment, but a wickedly accurate jibe at our fascination with these ancient monsters. |