|
01 Sep 20 - 12:24 AM (#4070284) Subject: RE: Mudcat Worldwide Singaround - On Zoom Mondays From: Mrrzy Moved from the Worldwide Singaround thread. -Joe Offer- Thanks! And welcome! Since I play no instruments I do not grok the concept of a song being unsuitable for unaccompanied singing, I might add... |
|
01 Sep 20 - 02:05 AM (#4070287) Subject: RE: Mudcat Worldwide Singaround - On Zoom Mondays From: Joe Offer Mrr - Songs unsuitable for unaccompanied singing, are songs with lots of "dead air." Anything longer than one measure of silence, is probably too much. Don't think YOU'd ever have that problem.... ;-) (well, me neither) -Joe- |
|
01 Sep 20 - 02:35 AM (#4070288) Subject: RE: Mudcat Worldwide Singaround - On Zoom Mondays From: The Sandman It depends on the abilty of the singer, any song is suitable for singing without accompaniment if the singer is good, and has experience of unaccompanied singing. Joe Offer is a fount of information. |
|
01 Sep 20 - 03:10 AM (#4070293) Subject: RE: Mudcat Worldwide Singaround - On Zoom Mondays From: Waddon Pete I agree with Sandman. Often songs are better without the accompaniment of instruments. It allows singer an audience to concentrate on the words and the meaning of the song. Another great night Joe, thanks. |
|
01 Sep 20 - 03:10 AM (#4070294) Subject: RE: Mudcat Worldwide Singaround - On Zoom Mondays From: The Sandman They fell into several parts. 1. Four basic vowel-type sounds The objective was to produce them in a pure, open, relaxed and unrestricted tone in order to work out where your 'natural' voice was being produced in order to have control over it. 2. A number of singing exercises to handle different aspects of the voice. They consisted of: Two short pieces of Wagner ('Tis Ended' and 'By Evil Craft') to help with the handling unfamiliar (small and large) intervals and unusual tunes accurately. One short piece of Gilbert and Sullivan (Rising Early in the Morning; from The Gondoliers; but similar G&S will do) for precise articulation while singing at speed. One piece of Mouth Music (Tail Toddle - 2 choruses and one verse sung in one breath) for speed and articulation also breath control (sometimes Rocky Road To Dublin was substituted - one chorus and one refrain sung in one breath). These can be memorised in a week, once learned, never forgotten, still can do most of them after forty years, though breath control is not as good as it was (takes at least 2 breaths for Tail Toddle and Rocky Road nowadays) 3. Series of relaxation excercises (neck, shoulders arms, back, legs) to help control tension (starts off as full exercise, but once mastered, full exercise is seldom needed and tension can be contolled wherever it appears) Probably the most useful work I was ever given; can help with activities other than singing. All the exercises came with full explanation of their purpose and uses, along with a breakdown of the theory of their necessity. They might sound complicated, but they come automatically once learned. Jim Carroll [ Quote]above. When one sings the diaphragm should be used, thus breath control is stronger, a little ornamention is a spice of added interest when there is no instrument, singing from diaphragm there will be no dead air |
|
01 Sep 20 - 05:33 AM (#4070306) Subject: RE: Mudcat Worldwide Singaround - On Zoom Mondays From: Joe Offer The songs that don't work for unaccompanied singing, are songs written with long breaks for instrumental parts. A cappella singers naturally extend notes or shorten rests to avoid "dead air," but some songs just don't seem to allow for such adjustments. I'd say it's mostly pop songs and songs with complicated rhythms that may not work for unaccompanied singing. I love "Chantilly Lace," but I can't figure out how to sing the song without accompaniment. |
|
01 Sep 20 - 06:05 AM (#4070312) Subject: RE: Mudcat Worldwide Singaround - On Zoom Mondays From: SPB-Cooperator The problem with singing accompanied songs accompanied is when they are sung as if they accompaniment is still being played, and that can make the song sound stilted. The unaccompanied singer, needs to arrange to song for non-accompaniment. From my understanding great folk musicians play along to what they are singing as oppose to sing along to what they are playing and that allows the song to naturally flow. I use the same technique in music hall - the pianist accompanies what I perform which gives me the freedom to slow down bars, and add pauses for effect. Another technique is borrowing/paying back beats. Paying back - because if add the end of a measure the tune has fallen off the beat, it clashes with our internal metronome and can be uncomfortable to hear. - oh the pain of many Shanty Crew rehearsals!!!!! Just thinking aloud - are there are discussion threads on singing accompanied songs unaccompanied? |
|
01 Sep 20 - 07:14 AM (#4070325) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: Joe Offer Steve, you do a masterful job of adapting songs for unaccompanied singing. Oftentimes, it takes a radical restructuring of a song to make it work without accompaniment, and you do this very well. I've done it all my life also. I like singing with accompaniment, but often prefer to sing without. It can really bug me on some songs when I'm singing and somebody starts to play along. Instrumental accompaniment tends to regularize a song, while an unaccompanied singer is not restricted by the regular rhythm of an accompanist. I like to slow down some parts for emphasis, and that's hard to do when a guitarist is leading you. I'll sometimes ask an accompanist to do a single chord or arpeggio on the downbeat so I'm free to do what I want with the rest of a measure. This is especially true with funny songs. But I still haven't found a way to sing "Chantilly Lace" without accompaniment. So much of the song is a supposed telephone call with music underlying. I used to sing this one with a favorite piano player. "Oh, baby, you KNOW what I like." -Joe- Here's the Big Bopper singing "Chantilly Lace": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b-by5e4saI |
|
01 Sep 20 - 07:50 AM (#4070330) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: GUEST,matt milton That thing about the amount of dead air in pop songs is a good one. Sometimes a 4/4 pop can quite easily be turned into a rolling 6/8 and these seems to narrow the gap a little. |
|
01 Sep 20 - 08:19 AM (#4070335) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: Dave Hanson If Steeleye Span could do it with Buddy Holly's ' Rave on ' it could be done with any song IMHO. Dave H |
|
01 Sep 20 - 09:18 AM (#4070340) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: The Sandman Absolutely Dave, prectise joe, just work a bit harder at it. |
|
01 Sep 20 - 10:06 AM (#4070344) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: GUEST,Mark Some songs are poor choices for solo unaccompanied singing at least, I'd say. For example, if the tune is really driven by the harmony, such as Steely Dan's "Chain Lightning" (top melody line just F#, E and G), you're probably on to a loser, though it could be done with a vocal group. |
|
01 Sep 20 - 12:49 PM (#4070359) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: Joe Offer Well, I keep working on "Chantilly Lace." Maybe by the time I'm 93, I'll have an arrangement worked up. -The Old Bopper- |
|
01 Sep 20 - 02:10 PM (#4070371) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: The Sandman lets hope you live that long., another 72 years Joe , if the melody is good it will stand on its own. no tune is driven by harmony, harmony can add something if it is good it can also feck it up, that all depends how good the harmony is. but a good tune will stand on its own without accompaniment if the singer is good.. Stephen Foster wrote some great tunes they work unaccompanied and with harmony. listen to Brigg Fair, sung by joseph taylor then listen to Percy Graingers arrangements, both work, because both knew what they were ding , one as a singer and the other as n arranger. |
|
02 Sep 20 - 12:39 AM (#4070425) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: mg As far as not liking people to accompany you, make it part of your performance to just say I prefer not to be accompanied, or I prefer you only on the chorus/not at all. So many places have different unspoken rules that we are bound to break because we don't know what they are....just say as you announce your song what your preferences are unless it is a closed group where everyone knows the rules. |
|
02 Sep 20 - 03:36 AM (#4070435) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: GerryM Was this thread started as a reaction to my post in the singaround thread about having to rework Craig Edmondson's song, Used To Be A River, in order to sing it unaccompanied? If I kept it the way Criag did it, but without accompaniment, it would sound like this: This used to be a river pause pause pause pause But now it is a sewer pause pause pause But it used to be a river and I wonder where the river got to go. I don't think that works, so I rearranged it as call-and-response: This used to be a river (used to be a river) but now it is a sewer (now it is a sewer) but it used to be a river and I wonder where the river got to go, and I asked my wife to lead the response parts. You remember the notorious quote from the Vietnam War, "We had to destroy that town in order to save it"? I sometimes joke that I had to destroy a song in order to sing it. A few weeks back, I wanted to do the Harry Robertson song, Wee Pot Stove, for the singaround. Many people are familiar with the Nic Jones recording on Penguin Eggs. Without Jones' guitar, it goes like this: In the wee dark engine room pause pause pause pause where the chill seeps to your soul pause pause pause pause how we huddled round that wee pot stove pause pause that burned oily rags and coal pause pause pause pause pause pause pause pause When the winter blizzards blow .... Well, instead of the dead air, you could stretch out the last syllable of each line: In the wee dark engine roo-oo-oo-oo-oom where the chill seeps to your sou-ou-ou-ou-oul etc., but that sounds just as bad to me. So I decided to just shorten the time between lines: In the wee dark engine room pause where the chill seeps to your soul pause how we huddled etc., etc. I was worried about whether this was a good idea. It occurred to me to listen to Robertson's own recording. Robertson did it with accompaniment – but with short pauses between lines, so I figured it was OK. (This may also explain why some people here in Australia, who heard it direct from Robertson well before Jones recorded it, can't stand the Jones recording, or any performance that follows Jones' arrangement.) |
|
02 Sep 20 - 04:18 AM (#4070440) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: GUEST,Mark (sorry for the empty post - the mudcat interface catches me out from time to time) "no tune is driven by harmony" - OK, perhaps I expressed myself poorly. Let's say "if the song is driven by the harmony" ... my example was Chain Lightning by Steely Dan which has little in the way of a melody, just a 2-bar ostinato figure built on 3 notes for the top-line. However, it's still a song (and in my opinion a good one) because of the musical interest provided by the subtly changing 3-voice harmony and the way the bass part recontextualises the triads. I could imagine this being sung effectively by an a capella vocal group, but a solo unaccompanied performance would probably not be satisfying. However, you can have something with little in the way of melody which supports solo performance such as this - in this case the rhythmic structure that makes it work, I think. |
|
02 Sep 20 - 04:44 AM (#4070442) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: GUEST,Martin Ryan "The Wee Pot Stove" is an interesting example. I've certainly heard it much more often unaccompanied than otherwise - though I love it with concertina. To me, it's a classic story song with chorus - and it's the storytelling that matters. If the storytelling is up to snuff, the "dead air" disappears! Regards |
|
02 Sep 20 - 08:57 AM (#4070463) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: Steve Gardham You adapt folksongs for accompaniment, never for unaccompanied singing. IMO if it needs adapting for unaccompanied singing it's not a folksong. |
|
02 Sep 20 - 09:38 AM (#4070466) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: GUEST,Phil Edwards Steve - true, but sometimes people learn a folk song from an accompanied version, and it takes a bit of work to pull it back into shape. I learned The Holland Handkerchief from the Waterson:Carthy recording, and spent quite a while taking out the pattern of stresses that Norma Waterson (no less) had put in to fit the accompaniment, and putting the stresses where they would 'naturally' have fallen. When I eventually sang it out friend paid me the great compliment of saying my version sounded like Packie Byrne's - Norma's source, which at that point I hadn't heard. Strange but true... It's not always about instrumental arrangements imposing regularity, either. I do a version of Tom Padget which is in 3:4 with a strong and regular downbeat, which is not the case of the Spiers and Boden version (which is the first one I heard). |
|
02 Sep 20 - 11:50 AM (#4070481) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: Felipa Phil Edwards, I read what you wrote about Peter Bellamy and I found it strange because this variation in metre is exactly what I expect in traditional singing (depending on the genre of course). |
|
02 Sep 20 - 08:28 PM (#4070545) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: GerryM Steve Gardham, I grant you that "Used To Be A River" and "Wee Pot Stove" are not traditional songs. They are songs that I like and wanted to sing unaccompanied, and I felt that the versions I was most familiar wirh needed adapting. Is that OK with you? |
|
03 Sep 20 - 02:32 AM (#4070566) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: The Sandman did get an idea of tradtional style it is imo a good idea to listen to tradtional singers,most of whom were unaccompanied , i recommend, phil tanner, harry cox jeannie robertson. Prsonally i would not take norma waterson peter bellamy ,martin carthy,nic jones as stylistic benchmarks |
|
03 Sep 20 - 04:27 AM (#4070577) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: Phil Edwards Felipa - in the context of the Holland Handkerchief, I was talking about the kind of irregularity that comes from having a tune in a regular time signature in your head, but pulling it out of shape where the words demand it (3 beats instead of 4 in this line, 5 instead of 4 in that one). If you listen to On Board a 98 or Two Pretty Boys - or Nic Jones's Bonny Bunch of Roses, since he's been mentioned - it's as if the words have completely taken over from the time signature; the tune's so far out of shape, rhythmically speaking, that it's completely baggy! But perhaps we can talk more about Bellamy on the other thread. |
|
03 Sep 20 - 04:59 AM (#4070584) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: JHW I've never thought of it as Adapting. Finding a 'new' song I must learn I somehow know straight away if I'll need the guitar or not. Has worked out about half and half with and without. Different instrument users choice will be different. There certainly are songs with far more acompaniment than words such that you remember mainly the accompaniment. Words that may have very little melody or content. The sort of thing they played on the Sports Centre PA. Not something I'd be tempted to learn. |
|
03 Sep 20 - 08:36 AM (#4070599) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: Gallus Moll Re the comments about guitarists etc joining in and directing the unaccompanied song - sometimes audiences/listeners join in, specially with a chorus song - and take over!! Jeannie Robertson had a technique for dealing with that; she said that the song should be like a burn flowing. Sometimes smoothly, almost still - then quickly and erratically as the water fell down small waterfalls. The key being it was unpredictable! The singer is expressing the story and emotions of the song or ballad, and is not bound by conventional written music rules! |
|
03 Sep 20 - 04:42 PM (#4070657) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: Tattie Bogle I can think of several examples of people who usually sing unaccompanied taking a song which is perhaps best known in its accompanied version (perhaps the way the songwriter him/herself did it?): it is quite noticeable, that if the lines in the accompanied version finish with long notes, the unaccompanied singer will end to shorten these, which actually throws the rhythm of the song out: whether this is because they cannot hold the long notes or are afraid of "dead air space", I don't know, or could be deliberately just "making the song your own". On the other hand, some of the best tips I have heard for unaccompanied singers are (from Gordeanna McCulloch) "read the words first, and then sing them as you would say them, to make them make sense" - and for songwriters, from Hamish Henderson - "let the words sit comfortably on the tune". And add to that avoiding having conjunctions and prepositions (and, of, the, etc) as long notes: keep the longer notes for the important words that need to be emphasised, and pronounced as they would be in speech. As for songs with strong rhythmic or melodic "fills" between lines or verses, just sing/scat them, don't leave them out! |
|
04 Sep 20 - 01:44 PM (#4070737) Subject: RE: Adapting songs for unaccompanied singing From: Steve Gardham Hi Gerry IMO stands for 'In My Opinion'. I've been singing folk songs for nigh on 70 years and can't think of a single example of where I've consciously learnt a song from somebody's accompanied version, but each to their own. Once you have learnt a song from any source it will naturally become adapted to how you want it anyway. |