|
15 May 07 - 07:42 AM (#2052225) Subject: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: beardedbruce from the Washington Post: A Question Of Race Vs. Class Affirmative Action For the Obama Girls? By Eugene Robinson Tuesday, May 15, 2007; Page A15 Barack Obama doesn't think anyone should cut his two daughters any slack when they apply to college -- not because of their race, at least. In the unlikely event that the Obama family goes broke, then maybe. In an interview broadcast Sunday on ABC's "This Week," Obama waded into the central issue of the affirmative action debate: race vs. class. Perhaps typically, Obama's remarks were more Socratic than declarative. He didn't really answer the question, he rephrased it. Maybe the way he posed it, though, will lead to a discussion that's long overdue. George Stephanopoulos asked Obama whether his daughters should be able to benefit from affirmative action when the time comes for them to go to college. The girls "should probably be treated by any admissions officer as folks who are pretty advantaged," Obama said. Stephanopoulos was driving at the question of whether race-based affirmative action programs are still needed. Another way to frame the issue is whether race or class is the more important factor in our society. Are minorities who are raised in middle-class or wealthy homes still held back by racism? Or should we now focus on socioeconomic status as the principal barrier keeping people from reaching their potential? Obama's answer, basically, was yes. To both questions. Obama has repeatedly gone on record as a supporter of affirmative action. But "if we have done what needs to be done to ensure that kids who are qualified to go to college can afford it," he said in the ABC interview, "affirmative action becomes a diminishing tool for us to achieve racial equality in this society." He seemed to side with those who think class predominates when he said, "I think that we should take into account white kids who have been disadvantaged and have grown up in poverty and shown themselves to have what it takes to succeed." It's hard to disagree with that proposition, especially as economic inequality worsens in this country. Harvard University (where Obama went to law school) has taken the lead in guaranteeing that money will not be an obstacle for qualified low-income students. But Obama seemed to agree with those who point to the lingering effects of racism when he noted that "there are a lot of African American kids who are still struggling, that even those who are in the middle class may be first-generation as opposed to fifth- or sixth-generation college attendees, and that we all have an interest in bringing as many people together to help build this country." That observation points to circumstances that have to be taken into account. Diversity, in my view, is very much in the national interest. But diversity is a process, not a destination. We have to keep working at it. And since a college degree has become the great divider between those who make it in this society and those who don't, affirmative action in college admissions is one of the most powerful tools we have to increase diversity. The formal separate-but-equal framework is long gone, but de facto separation and inequality persist. Minority students are disproportionately disadvantaged by having to attend substandard primary and secondary schools. Their parents are less likely to have attended college and thus may not be familiar with all the things parents have to do to make their children competitive when it comes time to apply for college admission. And while racism is not the institutional and legal straitjacket it was 50 years ago, it persists in subtler yet still pernicious forms. Yes, class is important. But race is, too, and while I hope we eventually get to the point where race is irrelevant, we still have a long way to go. As for Obama's assessment of his daughters' privileged status, that's just a statement of the obvious. With such Type A, high-wattage parents, those girls probably will have the grades and test scores to get into any college. And if they don't, they will benefit from a different affirmative action program -- one that for many generations has ushered the academically undistinguished scions of prominent families into the nation's most selective colleges and universities. Let's not pretend that college admissions has ever been a level playing field. Obama graduated from Columbia; his wife, Michelle, from Princeton. This means that at those two Ivy League schools, their daughters will be "legacy" applicants, just like George W. Bush was at Yale and legions of Kennedys have been at Harvard. Given the Obamas' power and fame, admissions officers at the schools they attended -- and probably at other elite schools, too -- are going to find a way to let the Obama girls in. |
|
15 May 07 - 08:14 AM (#2052248) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: GUEST,redhorse at work yet another tedious bb cut-and-paste |
|
15 May 07 - 09:58 AM (#2052323) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: jacqui.c I do think that economics and class do have a great part to play in this situation. Getting the foot on that first rung can be hard for the child of parents who do not have money or connections. I also agree that race is not always totally relevant to the issue - it's more whether the culture a child is raised in has that expectation of their children and is prepared and able to do what it takes to get that education. I'm aware of a number of kids from 'white' backgrounds who, although capable, did not get the encouragement to try for further education and, in one case, was actually discouraged from going. Affirmative action IMHO should be looking at the socio-economic background and the educative disadvantages of college applicants regardless of race or colour. I think that more needs to be done in schools, and the earlier the better, to encourage students to think of further education as a right, not a privilege, in order to crack the cultural barrier that seems to exist. |
|
15 May 07 - 04:09 PM (#2052687) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Riginslinger "Affirmative action IMHO should be looking at the socio-economic background and the educative disadvantages of college applicants regardless of race or colour." Yes, race base affirmative action does more damage than it does good. |
|
15 May 07 - 04:58 PM (#2052764) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Scoville Good Lord--I don't think I know anyone, white or otherwise, who is a fifth or sixth-generation college graduate. I am not, and my father's family prides themselves on being unbearably white-collar (my uncle's DDS degree was snubbed because being a dentist was too close to manual labor, as opposed to earning a PhD and going into academics). |
|
15 May 07 - 07:36 PM (#2052936) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Riginslinger One of the problems with the way affirmative action was implemented was: If somebody came from Poland flat broke, they wouldn't qualify for anything, and if another person came from Kenya at the same time, they might qualify for all the benefits. |
|
15 May 07 - 09:44 PM (#2053011) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Bill D Bruce..you gotta say something instead of just pasting an article and saying "have at it"..You are not a school teacher here trying to open students minds. We are adults...give us the gist of it, a link....and a COMMENT! |
|
16 May 07 - 08:13 AM (#2053349) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: catspaw49 Pay no attention to that Bruce. I can see what greeat threas these are and you start so many of this type, I've decided to follow your lead! Check it out!!!! If that one doesn't go however, I will revert back to my first thought regarding this type of crappola. Imagine me standing in front of you holding my dick as I say, "Here ya' go Fuzznuts...Discuss THIS. Spaw |
|
16 May 07 - 12:04 PM (#2053615) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: beardedbruce Bill et al, When I started threads stating my opinion, I get the standard-"if BB says it, I will disagree with it" from too many here. I thought that the article in question brings up valid points, and want to know what others think ABOUT THE ARTICLE, not about what MY opinion is. IMO, Affirmative action based on race is a way for liberals to say " See, THESE people can't compete unless we give them an advantage that others do not have. And if they then succeed, we can still look down on them since they had this unfair advantage. I disagree with that, and agree that affirmative action based on economic level would be an apropriate means of dealing with the real problem of some individuals. OK? Now start telling those people who demand that I stop making statements and bring in outside sources for ANYTHING I want to discuss to get off my back! I can post articles, and I can post my opinions- BUT TO BE CRITCIZED FOR BOTH is unreasonable! |
|
16 May 07 - 12:24 PM (#2053626) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Bill D Two 'almost' separate issues: since you ARE more conservative than most here, you may well expect a lot of disagreement with posts. 'Style' of posting and type of argument are also lightning rods. (as a matter of fact *I* don't like affirmative action based on race that demands quotas in certain areas. I don't mind minorities getting the nod where all other things are equal.) Pasting ALL of long articles is another thing entirely. Even if you are not going to comment, you can at least limit the paste and provide a link. Why would you think it is better to NOT comment first, then enter the discussion later? |
|
16 May 07 - 12:31 PM (#2053631) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: beardedbruce I have been taken to task in the past for stating my opinion, and told to present JUST the FACTS of the case. As long as others have already stated opinions that I agree with, I see no reason to keep my own secret- but before then, my statement of opinion seems to generate an automatic "Lets cut this apart!" on the part of some here- NOT conducive to a real discussion. |
|
16 May 07 - 05:23 PM (#2053926) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Bill D If I may be permitted a C&P of my own post: ahem... "'Style' of posting and type of argument are also lightning rods." I was driving home from the store today, musing on Mudcat & how we debate...etc., when a thought came to me which I immediately rephrased as a quotation: "Being passionate and sure one is right about an issue in not an excuse for careless defense of one's psoition." I think I could phrase that better, but it says a lot of what I usually say at INTERMINABLE length! |
|
17 May 07 - 07:30 AM (#2054461) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: kendall Mr. Justice Clarence Thomas is a product of affirmitive action, so, I'm agin' it. |
|
17 May 07 - 09:11 AM (#2054552) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Grab Sounds like Obama's got brains. I'm hoping for the first black President. And the first Prez for quite a while with balls, brains *and* morals. Graham. |
|
17 May 07 - 09:11 AM (#2054554) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: 3refs I think I can agree with those who feel that class distinction exists and it sucks. Sometime ago, I took part in a discussion of minor sports. I suggested that how thick Dad's wallet was, as opposed to how good the kid might be with a hockey or lacrosse stick, had a rather large impact on being selected to a "Representative"(all star) team. I didn't just make the statement, I proved my point, identifying several individuals that if not for the lack of money they could have taken their talent to unknown heights. |
|
17 May 07 - 05:16 PM (#2054943) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Stringsinger BB sounds like you've experienced the yoke and lash of slavery. American history is full of rich white men in slave ships and on plantations and they deserve to be given fair treatment. After all rich white folks have been deprived of the basic necessities of life because of the color of their skin. They could never get to be president of the United States. or own gigantic corporations which screw the middle class and the working men and women. |
|
17 May 07 - 06:16 PM (#2054986) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Peace Affirmative Action was and is meant to set right some injustices of history. The question should not be whether AA is 'right', but whether or not the injustices have been corrected and all parties to citizenship are equally welcome and prepared to enter the competition. |
|
17 May 07 - 06:44 PM (#2055013) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Riginslinger "Affirmative Action was and is meant to set right some injustices of history." That's why it can't be race based. If Shaquille O'Neal wanted to go into the coal mining business, he'd qualify for every federal program for the disadvantaged there is. |
|
17 May 07 - 07:03 PM (#2055022) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Peace I agree it should no longer be based on race; rather, it should be based on economic considerations. However, that aside, there is definitely something amiss when there isn't a proportionally equal representation of races in management positions--that is, when a group within the general population that makes up 15% doesn't have about that percentage of representation in positions of authority. If that isn't the case, which it isn't, then AA is still necessary, IMO. |
|
17 May 07 - 07:05 PM (#2055023) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Peace Keriste, that was stated in a clumsy manner. |
|
17 May 07 - 07:57 PM (#2055042) Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on affirmative action- discuss? From: Riginslinger There is some merit to that point of view, but taking into consideration what the Senate is proposing to do with illegal immigrants, if they all became legal tomorrow, they'd all qualify for affirmative action. At that point, they'd represent a much larger percentage of the population than they did the day before. If positions were handed on a percentage basis, the big losers would be the folks who had a major "minority" stake ten minutes before the legislation was signed into law. |