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Origins: Tillbury or Tilsburie?

18 May 07 - 02:26 AM (#2055236)
Subject: Origins: Tillbury or Tilsburie?
From: chico

Is the spot where Elizabeth I gave her speech TILLBURY or TILSBURIE? Was it ever pronounced with the 's'?

Thomas Deloney's broadside (below) uses 's'.

Anyone live near there that can say?


  Queenes visiting of the Campe at Tilsburie with her entertainment there. 
  AIR -- 'Wilsons Wilde'
  
      C                  F        G7      C                 G7       C
  Within the yeare of Christ our Lord a thousand and five hundreth full
  And eightie eight by iust record the which no man may disannull.
       C                 F      G7          C            F         C   G7
  And in the thirtieth yeare remaining, of good Queene Elizabeths raigning, 
  A mightie power there was prepared by Philip, then the king of Spaine
     C         F       C        G7        C       F        G7       C 
  Against the maiden Queene of England, which in peace before did raigne.

18 May 07 - 04:39 AM (#2055308)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tillbury or Tilsburie?
From: manitas_at_work

Tilbury, one 'l'. Somewhere I have some historical maps of the area, I'll see how it used to be spelt.

18 May 07 - 04:50 AM (#2055312)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tillbury or Tilsburie?
From: GUEST,Noreen

Tilbury (Wikipedia) has only the modern spelling, even when mentioning Queen Elizabeth's speech at Tilbury- but this doesn't necessarily mean there wasn't another spelling.

20 May 07 - 05:27 AM (#2056873)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tillbury or Tilsburie?
From: Manitas_at_home

JUst looked at John Carey's 1787 map of Essex and it has Tilbury. I don't seem to have any earlier maps. Thomas Moule's famous maps are Victoran so no good for Elizabethan spelling. Perhaps tou can find something from a copy of John Speed's map.

20 May 07 - 05:30 AM (#2056875)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tillbury or Tilsburie?
From: Manitas_at_home

I fyou have good eyes try http://faculty.oxy.edu/horowitz/home/johnspeed/Maps2-4.htm

20 May 07 - 06:57 AM (#2056905)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tillbury or Tilsburie?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)

It has Tilbury there too Paul. Oxford Dictionary of Place Names has Tilaburg 731, Tiliberia 1086 (Domesday Book). Derivation stronhold of a man called Tila (though Tila could be a the name of a lost stream. Tila = the useful one).

The use of Tilsburie would accord with a genitive s Tilsburie = *Tila's burie equivalent to Tila-burg. A quick search for Tilsburie seems to find it always in the context of the title given above by Chico. See for example the article on Deloney: Deloney or Deloney - Misc Ballads, Notes. In the days before orthography was so regulated perhaps that's just how he thought it should be spelled!

Mick