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19 May 07 - 05:14 PM (#2056637) Subject: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: Gudrun Miller Hello--can anybody help with this small problem? Recently I purchased a new celtic harp--a lovely harp--only to find yesterday that the lever connected to the 6the E string wouldn't flatten the E to A flat but instead a tone lower to D. I know it is possible to re-tune the levers but as a self-taught harpist, I don't know how, anybody give me some hints? |
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20 May 07 - 04:10 AM (#2056843) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: JohnInKansas I'm no expert on harp details, but the pdf file at: http://www.musikit.com/Merchant2/pdf/leverinfo.pdf (152 KB file) has pretty clear pictures of a generic kind of lever, and some instructions for installing the levers. It might be assumed that adjusting them would fall withing the scope of how to get them in the right place at installation. (Right click and "Save Target As" to download the pdf file to your own machine for study?) John |
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20 May 07 - 05:01 AM (#2056865) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: JohnInKansas ... And I meant to comment that the terminology that seemed most productive at Google was "sharping levers" - which seems to be more commonly used by harp builders than "sharpening." I got many fewer useful hits with the longer term. The pdf indicates slots that would permit moving the mechanism for adjustment. Assuming that your mechanisms are similar, I would expect the typical tiny screws and hard wood combination commonly found in other instruments, so would urge that you get a good, close-fitting screwdriver for any adjustments. Even a slightly buggered screw slot will make future maintenance a real p.i.a. as long as you own the instrument, and complete removal of such little screws for replacement, as opposed to loosening just enough for adjustment, can give you a loose hole that may not hold a new screw properly in the same hole. John |
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20 May 07 - 05:07 AM (#2056867) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: The Borchester Echo Hmmmm, yes but wouldn't 'sharping' the levers have the opposite effect to that required? Gudrun said she wanted to 'flatten' the E string! Just a thought . . . |
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20 May 07 - 05:22 AM (#2056869) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: Gudrun Miller quite so--I want the E-string to flatten. When i tried to flatten it, it flattens too flat--IE to D not E-flat. I find that very weird that it flattens a tone not a semi-tone as is conventional. I'll check out that pdf. -- |
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20 May 07 - 03:25 PM (#2057108) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: JohnInKansas It's all relative. The sharping lever simply moves a pin against the string to shorten the string and raise the pitch - i.e. to make the note the string sounds sharp relative to the pitch when the lever is not engaged. If you tune it with the sharping lever pin against the string, when you move the lever the other direction, the pin is removed, the string is longer, and the note goes flat. The pin simply acts like a fret. On a guitar you move the string aginst the fret by pressing on the string. On a harp you move the fret against the string by turning the lever. If the change in pitch is too large, the pin is too far from the open end of the string, and needs to be moved up, closer to the open end of the string. If the levers are like the ones pictured in the pdf, you should be able to loosen the screws slightly and slide the whole lever mechanism up slightly, and retighten the screws. If you can't move the mechanism far enough, it may be necessary to make new holes for the screws. It's possible that the mechanism was properly located but has slipped, in which case just moving it back to the correct location and tightening the screws carefully is all that's needed. John |
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21 May 07 - 01:48 PM (#2057798) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: GUEST,Val Just adding one more hint to the above instructions: Always tune your strings without any levers engaged. (You may already be doing this - if so, disregard my reminder). The reason is, the lever may possibly restrict the stretching of the string, so when you tighten the tuning peg the string responds more slowly to the changes. You think it's in tune, then later the string slips a bit more past the lever & you're out of tune again. Also, with some levers, you can cause excessive wear on the string by tuning while the lever is engaged. Can you describe what sort of lever you have? Or do you know the brand of the harp? It could be worthwhile to consult with the harp- or lever- maker to see if there are any hints beyond the general info presented already. The common lever styles/brands in America are "blades" (flat piece mounted to one side of the string that rotates to press the string), Robinson (a black plastic lever presses the string toward the neck, pinching it against a pin), Loveland or Jordan (lever is mounted between the neck & the string, & "lifts up" against the string. Loveland are gold plated, Jordan are plastic), or Camac (lever lifts up but moves a fret against the side of the string rather than pressing toward or away from the neck). Blades can be tough to adjust. The others should be able to be moved at least a little without having to re-drill any holes. Note: some relatively inexpensive "Celtic" harps that are sold through various retail/catalog outlets are imported from Pakistan (usually via Mid-East Manufacturing). They look lovely, with carved rosewood sides etc. but quality control is sometimes questionable. Some of these "harp-shaped-objects" are virtually unplayable as musical instruments, others require significant surgery - including replacing strings & levers - to make them at best mediocre. Some fall apart quickly once you brin the strings up to standard tension. On the other hand, sometimes you get an instrument that is halfway decent - but it's a gamble. I don't know if any of that applies to your particular instrument, just throwing out some info. Val (amateur harp builder as well as player) |
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21 May 07 - 02:26 PM (#2057830) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: Gudrun Miller I have a Pakistani harp as you mention. I was told by the only shop in NZ that importshars--Lewis Eady Music--that they were good. It does need major surgery you're right. And my dear father is the one has to do the fine details because I can't see to do it. |
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21 May 07 - 04:05 PM (#2057885) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: JohnInKansas The only Celtic harps I see at Lewis Eady non-pedal harps range from about $2,000 NZ and up. One web converter gives $2,000 NZ = $1451 US. Listings are shown for: a.) Aoyama Pedal Harps, b.) Aoyama Non-Pedal/Lever Harps. I don't find much information other than a small picture, number of strings, and price, and only Aoyama harps are shown on the website. Lewis Eady appears to be a fairly typical "school music" shop. It is possible that they can provide some support at the local storefront if that's accessible, and it would seem appropriate to give them a call, and an opportunity to fix a poor setup, if you haven't tried that already. Lewis Eady may also handle other harp "brands" and may include cheaper ones, but Aoyama are the only ones shown at their web page. Wikipedia identifies Aoyama as a Japanese company, and gives a link to the Aoyama Company Website which unfortunately appears to be in Kanji with no "translator" button I can find. The pages I looked at don't appear to give much more detail than at Eady, but it's hard to tell without being able to read things. A US distributor for Aoyama, classicharpsnw indicates "showroom in Fukui Japan," and shows fairly detailed pictures of a variety of Aoyama harps, but mostly of pedal harps. At this link, the bottom left picture (clicked to enlarge) shows a default imagename "the_150.jpg" which more or less matches the "Irish Harp" models at Lewis Eady. The enlarged picture is about 3.5" x 7.5" 150 dpi and doesn't blow out completely at up to about 5x zoom/enlargement. It shows a sharping lever fairly clearly at the top left that someone with more familiarity might identify as to type. About all I can tell is that the mechanism is "roundish" and the levers appear to flip parallel to the strings in a plane perpendicular to the plane of the strings. If the harp in question is another brand, all this Aoyama stuff of course isn't very helpful. John |
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21 May 07 - 04:58 PM (#2057916) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: GUEST,Val Good luck, then, Gudrun. It may or may not be possible to fix your harp to the point where it performs the way you have a right to expect. Hopefully a little tweaking of the sharping levers is all that's needed. Of course, you do not NEED the levers - if you must play in different keys you can always just retune the particular strings. That is much more hassle than simply flipping a lever, but it's do-able. Rather than spending a lot of time trying to adjust it, maybe just either leave that lever down all the time or even remove it completely. Something else you might consider to improve the tone would be to change the strings. Many of the MidEast Mfctr harps I've seen are strung with very light gauge strings, and often only one or two different gauges. This means especially in the lower octaves the strings feel "sloppy loose" and may sound twangy. Beware, though, that the structure of the harp may not withstand the extra tension. My first harp was a little 19-string of similar heritage (although mine had no levers, and in fact did not have any bridge pins either.) One of the first things I did was replace the strings, using about 4 different sizes. This let me get firmer and more even tension through the string range (although still much lower tension than most folk harps). Made it much more comfortable to play, got rid of the "twang" in the bass notes, and increased the volume a fair amount. Unfortunately, after a couple of years the soundboard started cracking and pulling away from the body Speaking of bridge pins, your harp DOES have them, doesn't it? The extra little pins below the tuning pins that hold the strings all in an even line no matter how much the string is wound onto the tuning peg? If there are no bridge pins, then levers are pretty much useless. A quick web search turned up at least one harpmaker in NZ Keith Harrison with small harps starting at NZ$575. If you want to shop around for other harp makers, here is a List of most harpmakers in the world There are several in Australia, so perhaps the cost of shipping would not be quite as bad. Unfortunately, most well-made harps are probably going to be quite a bit more expensive than the "ornamental" ones produced to look good but without the care required to make consistently good sounding instruments. Unfortunately, decent folk harps typically cost around $1000 to $5000 US - they are not like guitars where you can go to most any pawn shop and find a playable instrument for $50. I hope you can get your harp to where it behaves itself well enough that you can enjoy playing it. That is really the most important thing - if it allows you to make music, makes you happy, and does not frustrate you because of limitations or problems with the instrument, then it's good enough! But if you find you are not getting the sound quality that you expect, or it just doesn't "feel good" to play it, remember it might not be your technique - it could be the instrument. Good luck! Val |
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02 Aug 07 - 06:33 PM (#2117773) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: GUEST,John I came to this site to get so help to try fix a loose lever because when I raise the lever it wont stay in place and I dont know what to do because the way my levers are situated I dont know how to go about fixing it with out breaking the G string that it is situated on and the harp has finally got to where I dont have to tune it every day |
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03 Aug 07 - 02:13 AM (#2118010) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: Helen Hi John, Can you tell us what sort of levers you have, please. If you read the descriptions Val posted previously it might help to identify them. "The common lever styles/brands in America are "blades" (flat piece mounted to one side of the string that rotates to press the string), Robinson (a black plastic lever presses the string toward the neck, pinching it against a pin), Loveland or Jordan (lever is mounted between the neck & the string, & "lifts up" against the string. Loveland are gold plated, Jordan are plastic), or Camac (lever lifts up but moves a fret against the side of the string rather than pressing toward or away from the neck). Blades can be tough to adjust. The others should be able to be moved at least a little without having to re-drill any holes." You might be able to tighten a screw in the lever, but you might have to take the string off to do that. It depends on the lever type, but normally you don't need to break the strings to fix the levers. The string will have stretched a bit, and it won't make much difference to take it off and put it back on again if the rest of the strings are all still in place and tuned up. More info would help a lot in trying to narrow down your problem and a possible solution. Helen |
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03 Aug 07 - 09:42 AM (#2118236) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: GUEST,leeneia I have friends who play harp, and I've never heard of a lever that makes a srring flat, only sharp. If you want an E-flat, then sharp a D string. Folk harpers tend to prefer music in C, D, G and A, the sharp keys. If a note comes along that doesn't fit those keys, they turn a lever to play that note, then turn the lever back to normal to finish the song. Some people don't even use the lever, they just sharp a string by pushing on it with one finger while plucking with another. I think that you either have an unusual harp or you need to read your owner's manual through a couple times. |
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03 Aug 07 - 01:50 PM (#2118425) Subject: RE: help: Re-tune sharpening levers on harp From: GUEST,Val "...when I raise the lever it wont stay in place..." This sounds to me like the lever is not fully engaging (pressing against) the string? Or is it pressing against the string, but then slipping off again? If it is a Jordan/Truitt type, the problem may be the BRIDGE PIN is at the wrong height. For these levers to work, the string needs to be held at a precise distance from the neck, so you must have a pin with a groove it it that the string runs over before it goes to the tuning peg. If this pin is "too high" - that is, it holds the string too far away from the neck - these levers will not press against the string. Look on the end of the pin - if it has slots like a screw, it is a threaded pin and you can use a screwdriver to drive it farther into the neck. Most of these pins do not have the slots, and are more like nails. Use a padded hammer or a block of wood between hammer and the pin, and GENTLY tap the pin farther into the neck. It is best to loosen the string and move the string off the bridge pin before making these adjustments. If you have the Robinson-style lever, it could be the bridge pin is the wrong height as I just described, but it could be either too "high" or too "low". If too low, remove the string & grip the pin with padded pliers to gently pull it farther out from the neck. Or the problem might be the "stop" of the lever (the little bar that stays in one place that the string is pinched against) is set too high or the string is too thick for the particular size of lever. The lever needs to go a little bit PAST where it first makes contact with the string to get it to lock in place. I'm not sure if the position of the stop can be adjusted or not - if not, you may have to get a new lever of the correct size for that string. If you are worried about breaking the string while working on the lever, it might be best to remove that string, fix the lever, then put the string back. It may take a few days to settle back in to where it does not require frequent re-tuning, but since the string has already been stretched it will settle in more quickly than a brand-new string. If you have blade-style levers that are not engaging the string, that is a bit more tricky to fix. You MIGHT be able to bend the lever a little bit to the side so it starts to press against the string (although you might break the blade in the attempt), or you might have to remove the blade, fill in the hole in the neck, drill a new mounting hold closer to the string, and re-install the blade. Either way, it could be more challenging than fixing the other types of levers. If you are not comfortable doing the repairs yourself, hopefully you can find a good harp technician nearby who can fix it. Good luck! Val |